Should Saints sack Tonda?

[Paul Chuckle]

I think we'll likely hear from Dragon Solak tomorrow and get announcements on various decisions. I don't think the club wants to create any more noise ahead of the game today to give the media more stuff to batter about.

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, LegalEagle said:

I’m starting to wonder whether as a result of the players and Tonda sitting down together (and assuming that the players are happy to work with him - those that are staying) that they’ve made a decision to try and stick with him as they see him as our best bet at getting back up next season. They will use Pannick or an equivalent to fight the FA charges as hard as they can and avoid a ban. A ban - he goes. No ban - he stays. Might be as black and white as that. 

Which is all well and good, but do we know how long these FA investigations tend to take? How long did they take in 2019 to conclude Bielsa didn't warrant sanctioning, for example? The last thing we need is a substantial period of uncertainty waiting for the FA to get their shit together. One thing's for sure, I bet the FA won't have the same degree of urgency as the recent EFL steamroller...

Edited 3 hours ago by trousers

[LegalEagle]

16 minutes ago, Tom & Gerry said:

I wish you were right but I think the hostility from fans, not least our own would be too great. We need a Manager now that can bring back some positivity.

If the players want him to stay and there is no ban (hard to imagine), would you be hostile towards him? Have to say that I wouldn’t. We win our first 5 games of the season any hostility will quickly vanish. One thing we can say without any doubt is that all of us football fans of any club are all very fickle.

[Thripp87]

Why is there even a vote?

There is less than a 0.1% chance he will even be allowed to stay, and we should be considering it even less then that.

1.) every player currently on the books thinks he’s a cunt.

2.) a large proportion of the fan base think he’s a cunt, on the evidence available so far he is the most culpable for giving us our worst and most embarrassing moment in our 140 year history.

3.) We can't move on it he is here.

4.) Every press conference after a win, did you cheat?

5.) if he is some superstar how fucking stupid will we look when he eventually leaves for a better club, if we stick with him?

[trousers]

1 minute ago, Thripp87 said:

every player currently on the books thinks he’s a cunt

Source?

[Thripp87]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

Source?

Fair comment. On the balance of probability thinks he’s a cunt.

[trousers]

8 minutes ago, Thripp87 said:

if he is some superstar

This is a key factor for me... How do we know how much of Tonda's "genius" is down to his spying antics? If the spying is just the icing on the cake, in terms of how good he is, then there's an argument for sticking with him (subject to all the other caveats), but if it's the spying that's the foundation of his managerial ability then he's surely  a gonna. 

Edited 3 hours ago by trousers

[LegalEagle]

Other thing occurred to me. If at the moment, Parsons, Spoors etc are all in the clear but Tonda knows the truth……….afraid to sack him in case he spills the beans.

[LegalEagle]

6 minutes ago, trousers said:

Which is all well and good, but do we know how long these FA investigations tend to take? How long did they take in 2019 to conclude Bielsa didn't warrant sanctioning, for example? The last thing we need is a substantial period of uncertainty waiting for the FA to get their shit together. One thing's for sure, I bet the FA won't have the same degree of urgency as the recent EFL steamroller...

Cannot believe the FA will be speedy but might want it tied up before the World Cup or the summer holidays. I assume the club has been given an indication.

[trousers]

Just now, Thripp87 said:

Fair comment. On the balance of probability thinks he’s a cunt.

I'm thinking that if the players had come out against him in unison at the recent meeting with them all and the management, then they'd have sacked him (or suspended him) on the spot, wouldn't they? The fact that there's been no instant action suggests to me that there's a possibility that the players have been convinced to stick by him...?

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, LegalEagle said:

Other thing occurred to me. If at the moment, Parsons, Spoors etc are all in the clear but Tonda knows the truth……….afraid to sack him in case he spills the beans.

Aye... More than likely there's a somewhat tangled web at play here...

Edited 3 hours ago by trousers

[Lord Duckhunter]

11 minutes ago, LegalEagle said:

We win our first 5 games of the season any hostility will quickly vanish

What happens if we lose the first 5

[Nordic Saint]

Bielsa was given the FIFA Fair Play Award at the end of his spygate season, followed by the Championship Manager of the Year award the next season, when his Leeds team won the Championship.

Yes, there is anew rule now, but all this moralising...

[LegalEagle]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What happens if we lose the first 5

He gets sacked. If he stays he owes us. His neck will be on the line for a lot if not most of next season if he stays

[trousers]

What happens if everyone starts posting whatabouteries? 

[trousers]

Just now, Nordic Saint said:

Bielsa was given the FIFA Fair Play Award at the end of his spygate season

Please tell me that's not true FFS! 

[Nordic Saint]

49 minutes ago, trousers said:

Please tell me that's not true FFS! 

Leeds United and Marcelo Bielsa win Fair Play prize at FIFA Football awards for role in Aston Villa game despite 'spygate' row | talkSPORT

But, to be fair, Leeds are a bigger club than us, so they can do what they like. If they'd been in our position now, there's no way they'd have been thrown out of the play-off final. Instead of an ex-Boro player on the independent commission, there'd have been an ex-Leeds one.

Edited 2 hours ago by Nordic Saint

[LegalEagle]

If he stays I assume he’s still allowed to ‘spy’ so long as it’s more than three days before a game? I assume that the EFL will make this clear to all clubs? Of course they won’t because the EFL are just plain and simple useless. 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

Just now, LegalEagle said:

If he stays I assume he’s still allowed to ‘spy’ so long as it’s more than three days before a game? I assume that the EFL will make this clear to all clubs? Of course they won’t because the EFL are just plain and simple useless. 

We should keep well away from any "spying" missions in the future, clubs will be out to get us.

[Oldandtired]

Football wise, spying or no spying we should keep him.

If it's true as in the report he bullied junior staff into carrying out nefarious deeds on his behalf then get rid. 

I detest bullies.

[Sheaf Saint]

20 minutes ago, trousers said:

Which is all well and good, but do we know how long these FA investigations tend to take? How long did they take in 2019 to conclude Bielsa didn't warrant sanctioning, for example? The last thing we need is a substantial period of uncertainty waiting for the FA to get their shit together. One thing's for sure, I bet the FA won't have the same degree of urgency as the recent EFL steamroller...

Especially seeing as they've got a world cup to focus on next month. We can't afford to wait for their conclusions - we have to act and be seen clearly to be acting ASAP.

[Nordic Saint]

7 minutes ago, Oldandtired said:

Football wise, spying or no spying we should keep him.

If it's true as in the report he bullied junior staff into carrying out nefarious deeds on his behalf then get rid. 

I detest bullies.

You'd hate Sir Alex Ferguson then. He could be mean and nasty with youngsters. As for Brian Clough, he would often humiliate them. What you need is a warm, cuddly manager like Russell Martin.

Edited 3 hours ago by Nordic Saint

[Whitey Grandad]

15 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

What happens if we lose the first 5

Then he should be sacked now.

[Wurzel]

If he get's a ban it's out of our hands.

But everything he done he done to try and win us games. He hasn't bribed referees or other clubs. He han't sent out players with instructions to injure opposing players. I do believe he didn't know it was against the rules to start with, I don't believe that nobody told him it was by the time we played Ipswich and Boro - if they didn't then that's the fault of the club not him. I don't believe spying on the opposition gains more than a tiny advantage if any, what can you really learn? In the Boro case, whether Hackney was fit and we could probably have worked that out when he stepped off the team coach. I don't believe for one minute that he or the club could have envisaged the repurcussions which are far in excess of the "crime"

The guy is committed to winning. He's currently on a  league 21 match unbeaten run. Not because of spying, mainly due to squad depth, substitutions and fitness. If we got rid of him now and the next boss struggles we'll only be asking ourselves "what if we'd kept him".

He's not a fool, he's learnt his lesson. I vote keep him

[sfc4prem]

1 minute ago, Nordic Saint said:

You'd hate Sir Alex Ferguson then. He could be mean and nasty with youngsters.

Moyes has bullied young Tyler Dibling, too.

[Master Bates]

Man City will snap him up.

[Lord Duckhunter]

11 minutes ago, Nordic Saint said:

You'd hate Sir Alex Ferguson then. He could be mean and nasty with youngsters. As for Brian Clough, he would often humiliate them.

That’s a shame, SAF was my choice to replace Tonda 

[Lee On Solent Saint]

19 minutes ago, Wurzel said:

I do believe he didn't know it was against the rules to start with, I don't believe that nobody told him it was by the time we played Ipswich and Boro

Do you also believe in Father Christmas?

[Tom & Gerry]

57 minutes ago, LegalEagle said:

If the players want him to stay and there is no ban (hard to imagine), would you be hostile towards him? Have to say that I wouldn’t. We win our first 5 games of the season any hostility will quickly vanish. One thing we can say without any doubt is that all of us football fans of any club are all very fickle.

A lot of ifs there. If the players all vowed to stay if he stayed then yes, but that's as likely as him not getting a ban. I'd have him back in the future but his career is likely to have moved on by then.

[SaintsLoyal]

1 hour ago, LegalEagle said:

Other thing occurred to me. If at the moment, Parsons, Spoors etc are all in the clear but Tonda knows the truth……….afraid to sack him in case he spills the beans.

How are these people in the clear ? we need to know what happened around jason taylor departure.

What about expenses ? nobody query this ?

 

Both would need to go, to have a fresh clean start anyone hanging aorund will make things worse.

[Mt.B-Real]

Sack him.

Should've been sacked on Wednesday for gross misconduct as soon as the appeal was concluded.

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

I'm thinking that if the players had come out against him in unison at the recent meeting with them all and the management, then they'd have sacked him (or suspended him) on the spot, wouldn't they? The fact that there's been no instant action suggests to me that there's a possibility that the players have been convinced to stick by him...?

As I was reading along I had a moment thinking "I didn't know the players had joined the Unison union." 🙂

[Whitey Grandad]

Bielsa didn't get a ban so why should Tonda? The only difference now is the 72 hour rule.

[Dman]

Should we sack Tonda? No. 

However, his position is probably untenable (unless the players show upmost loyalty and stick around for 1 more year).  

[Whitey Grandad]

Just now, Dman said:

Should we sack Tonda? No. 

However, his position is probably untenable (unless the players show upmost loyalty and stick around for 1 more year).  

The players are the key here. Notwithstanding a ban.

[Gloucester Saint]

13 minutes ago, Mt.B-Real said:

Sack him.

Should've been sacked on Wednesday for gross misconduct as soon as the appeal was concluded.

SR are waiting for the FA to do their job for them.

Weak, weak, weak.

[sadoldgit]

44 minutes ago, sfc4prem said:

Moyes has bullied young Tyler Dibling, too.

It seems that the definition of bullying has changed. Tough love is now bullying. Asking someone to do their job better is bullying apparently.

I don’t know if Eckert had actually properly bullied staff and if he has that is clearly unacceptable. 

When I was a kid there was a boy in my class who fancied himself as the school bully. He used to push people through hedges. On one occasion he asked me if I wanted a sweet and to hold out my hand. He then stabbed my palm with a freshly sharpened pencil. I still have the mark in my palm over 60 years later. Now that is what I call bullying.

So, are we talking Full Metal Jacket mode here or just “Tonda, you can’t talk to staff like that these days. You need to think about their feelings?”
 

[James G]

1 hour ago, trousers said:

Which is all well and good, but do we know how long these FA investigations tend to take? How long did they take in 2019 to conclude Bielsa didn't warrant sanctioning, for example? The last thing we need is a substantial period of uncertainty waiting for the FA to get their shit together. One thing's for sure, I bet the FA won't have the same degree of urgency as the recent EFL steamroller...

I read somewhere the FA thing can take up to 6 weeks

[sadoldgit]

18 minutes ago, Dman said:

Should we sack Tonda? No. 

However, his position is probably untenable (unless the players show upmost loyalty and stick around for 1 more year).  

If we had lost to Hull today I’m wondering just how many players would want to stay next season anyway? There must be some who fancy their chances of getting a bigger club rather than another year slogging away in the Championship.

Ok, I have climbed down off the fence and joined the no camp, depending on what happens with the FA of course. It seems very harsh for banning someone for doing something 72 hours before a match that that it is absolutely fine to do 72 hours and five minutes before a match. He broke a law, yes, but it is a bloody stupid law and that needs to be taken into account.

Edited 2 hours ago by sadoldgit

[LegalEagle]

5 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

It seems that the definition of bullying has changed. Tough love is now bullying. Asking someone to do their job better is bullying apparently.

I don’t know if Eckert had actually properly bullied staff and if he has that is clearly unacceptable. 

When I was a kid there was a boy in my class who fancied himself as the school bully. He used to push people through hedges. On one occasion he asked me if I wanted a sweet and to hold out my hand. He then stabbed my palm with a freshly sharpened pencil. I still have the mark in my palm over 60 years later. Now that is what I call bullying.

So, are we talking Full Metal Jacket mode here or just “Tonda, you can’t talk to staff like that these days. You need to think about their feelings?”
 

Can you remember his name? I was bullied by a couple of lads at school 40 years ago. Never forgotten their names and one in particular I know where he is now. Closer to Saints than I like. Anyway, if you know his name - the kid with the pencil - let’s hunt him down if he’s still alive and pay him a visit. 

[LegalEagle]

6 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

If we had lost to Hull today I’m wondering just how many players would want to stay next season anyway? There must be some who fancy their chances of getting a bigger club rather than another year slogging away in the Championship.

If we’d lost today the same players would have left that will be looking to leave anyway - Scienza, THB, Charles, Downes, Jander and possibly Azaz. Maybe a couple of others as well. There will be a rebuild job whether Tonda stays or not.

[coalman]

To quote Macbeth "if it were done when 'tis done then 'twere well it were done quickly". The longer we leave it the less time we have to do anything about it. Given that the FA is almost guaranteed to ban him anyway and they take forever to decide anything then hanging on as long as possible just puts pre-season at risk.

[Lord Duckhunter]

29 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

When I was a kid there was a boy in my class who fancied himself as the school bully. He used to push people through hedges. On one occasion he asked me if I wanted a sweet and to hold out my hand. He then stabbed my palm with a freshly sharpened pencil.

Good point 👍

[trousers]

38 minutes ago, James G said:

I read somewhere the FA thing can take up to 6 weeks

Great 😟

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

15 minutes ago, coalman said:

To quote Macbeth "if it were done when 'tis done then 'twere well it were done quickly". The longer we leave it the less time we have to do anything about it. Given that the FA is almost guaranteed to ban him anyway and they take forever to decide anything then hanging on as long as possible just puts pre-season at risk.

To quote one of my first bosses. 'Do it now then its fucking done'.

[trousers]

There HAS to be a reason why they've gone to ground again, rather than just being dithering buffoons, surely? 

[trousers]

1 minute ago, Sergei Gotsmanov said:

To quote one of my first bosses. 'Do it now then its fucking done'.

Steve Gibson, per chance? 

Oh... and is your surname 'Taylor'...?

[shurlock]

Voted no. At this point, the punishment has been handed down, and we’ve paid the ultimate price. The league got exactly what it wanted and then some. If we think Tonda can still do a job (admittedly a big if), then fuck the optics and how it looks from the outside. No rival club, no media outlet and certainly not the league are going to act in our interests.

Edited 1 hour ago by shurlock

[Gloucester Saint]

9 minutes ago, trousers said:

There HAS to be a reason why they've gone to ground again, rather than just being dithering buffoons, surely? 

…….

[OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint]

2 hours ago, Oldandtired said:

Football wise, spying or no spying we should keep him.

If it's true as in the report he bullied junior staff into carrying out nefarious deeds on his behalf then get rid. 

I detest bullies.

Gibson is a bully and those that are around in 10 years time will also still be able to show the scars of his antics.

SFC need to change the narrative. This beating ourselves over the head with self pity is worse than the crime. Tonda wasn't spying, he was scouting. Scouting is "the open ot tactical observation of an area to gain a tactical advantage". Spying involves entering enemy territory covertly, dead letter drops, microfiche in doorframes etc etc.

He is a rule-breaker but not a cheat. I'd be asking the players and if they are going to stay and support him, then I would be getting a man on the FA board, a man on the deciding panel (if a separate 'independent' panel makes the decision on his future) and our publicity machine in to full swing to influence the FA's decision to give him a fine.