Guilty of 114 charges

[egg]

And this outcome was with this Lord Pannick fella.

[saintant]

32 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

From what I’ve read, there are significant differences between the previous cases and here.  
 

They got out before on some technicalities, but they were guilty then and bang to rights here. 
 

Im still struggling to think of an appropriate punishment. Honestly if they get wound up and have to start again, I don’t think that’s too far. The scale of it is mad. 

If you watch the film its a very similar MO with payments hidden and a very loose association with the true facts of what went on. When they appealed their appeared to be a stitch up between them and CAS so that they had a 2-1 casting vote in the decision to uphold their appeal. All seemed very shady.

[saintant]

16 minutes ago, die Mannyschaft said:

Discussing on ITV,  Keen and Wright. Both say its cheating and something needs to be done. Wright said its cheating kn an industrial scale.  Which I agree it is.

I personally think all the Premier League can do is make a symbol punishment but which keeps City in Prem. Maybe a 30 point deduction for next season and  which then allows City to survive on 34 points. 

Really surprised at the statement and maybe tgey contacted FA to delay the Tonda ban so can get statement out with all media eyes on that.

I wonder if the players have anything in contract that says a point deduction then they can go.

If guilty how on earth can they possibly be allowed to stay in the league they cheated on for years on an industrial scale? This is not a few million it is absolute fortunes that enabled them to hoover up all the best senior players plus the elite youngsters from other clubs.

[Football Special]

1 hour ago, Harry_SFC said:

Having read the statement etc I can't see any way they aren't kicked down the leagues. You can debate how much impact our cheating had but you can't debate theirs, that's for sure. 

They'll do a Chelsea, argue financial punishment for financial irregularities and not a sporting sanction 

[sfc4prem]

Just now, Football Special said:

They'll do a Chelsea, argue financial punishment for financial irregularities and not a sporting sanction 

Pretty hollow argument given their financial irregularities facilitated their sporting achievements.

[saintant]

1 minute ago, Football Special said:

They'll do a Chelsea, argue financial punishment for financial irregularities and not a sporting sanction 

Chelsea is fairly different because their offences were committed under Abramovic. Their new owners uncovered it all when doing due diligence and owned up to everything so were treated more leniently. City have been the complete opposite in that they've maintained their innocence throughout and been uncooperative.  

[macca155]

The FA have certainly gone for them. This is going to be in the courts for a long time yet.

Makes no difference though, they have been found guilty of financial doping in the eyes of football fans. Mortal reputational damage that cannot be recovered.

I do feel a bit for the City fans, but they knew in their hearts what was going on, we all did.

The FA have to do something major. The integrity of the league is in question.

My worry is that City are a significant barrier to an American takeover of the PL. That could bring hateful franchise football even closer. Hopefully football heritage in this country will stop that happening.

I can't even begin to think what sort of punishment they'll receive. Just hope it isn't relegation to our league as that just hurts the other 23 teams.

Potential for an interesting fire sale in January.

[Osvaldorama]

10 minutes ago, Football Special said:

They'll do a Chelsea, argue financial punishment for financial irregularities and not a sporting sanction 

No chance.. I don’t think they can get out of this one. The report is absolutely damning. 
 

Literally calls them “dishonest”

Apparently there are more breaches after this too, city just haven’t been forthcoming with the investigation. 
They’ll likely be charged all the way up to this season. 

[LeBizzier69]

5 minutes ago, macca155 said:

The FA have certainly gone for them. This is going to be in the courts for a long time yet.

Makes no difference though, they have been found guilty of financial doping in the eyes of football fans. Mortal reputational damage that cannot be recovered.

I do feel a bit for the City fans, but they knew in their hearts what was going on, we all did.

The FA have to do something major. The integrity of the league is in question.

My worry is that City are a significant barrier to an American takeover of the PL. That could bring hateful franchise football even closer. Hopefully football heritage in this country will stop that happening.

I can't even begin to think what sort of punishment they'll receive. Just hope it isn't relegation to our league as that just hurts the other 23 teams.

Potential for an interesting fire sale in January.

90% of their fans will walk away and support someone else probably. Certainly feel sorry for the genuine fans.

[EssEffCee]

18 minutes ago, Football Special said:

They'll do a Chelsea, argue financial punishment for financial irregularities and not a sporting sanction 

Nah sporting sanctions for breaching these rules are already established and this is the worst case of it.

Be surprised if they expel them though and think it'll just be a big enough points deduction to relegate them alongside a multi year transfer ban.

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

21 minutes ago, saintant said:

If guilty how on earth can they possibly be allowed to stay in the league they cheated on for years on an industrial scale? This is not a few million it is absolute fortunes that enabled them to hoover up all the best senior players plus the elite youngsters from other clubs.

I don't really see how a single relegation would be punishment either. If they were relegated to the Championship they'd simply walk the league and probably be back in Europe (if not banned) within a couple of years.

Need to be thrown out of the league all together and work their way back up (fairly...).

[EssEffCee]

3 minutes ago, LeBizzier69 said:

90% of their fans will walk away and support someone else probably. Certainly feel sorry for the genuine fans.

I don't. If anything I'm jealous of them.

Reach the very top of the sport, see your team win the lot, and then just as the tourists start to take over you're thrown down the leagues and get your club back.

Sounds class tbh.

[sfc4prem]

1 minute ago, EssEffCee said:

I don't. If anything I'm jealous of them.

Reach the very top of the sport, see your team win the lot, and then just as the tourists start to take over you're thrown down the leagues and get your club back.

Sounds class tbh.

Some might even say an ideal scenario. Back to grassroots and watch your club rise the leagues again.

[Football Special]

19 minutes ago, EssEffCee said:

Nah sporting sanctions for breaching these rules are already established and this is the worst case of it.

Be surprised if they expel them though and think it'll just be a big enough points deduction to relegate them alongside a multi year transfer ban.

Who knows,  I'll believe it when I see it. 

Top level football is so corrupt nothing surprises me anymore. 

How come HMRC arent involved if player salaries were understated if that resulted in less tax paid? 

Ultimately these rules are designed to protect the established teams like the Man Utds and Liverpool who had the resources, when you look at Man City its crazy really their owners wanted to spend spend spend (their own money) but couldn't as ratio to turnover prevented them (so had to inflate commercial deals) , bet there are other owners that have used commercial deals to funnel money into clubs, wouldn't surprise me if Gao was trying that with the mythical LD Sports shirt sponsorship 🤣

Edited 3 hours ago by Football Special

[Football Special]

9 minutes ago, EssEffCee said:

I don't. If anything I'm jealous of them.

Reach the very top of the sport, see your team win the lot, and then just as the tourists start to take over you're thrown down the leagues and get your club back.

Sounds class tbh.

Yep, they'll be happy. Champions league away days costing a fortune now , they've seen it all , now back to the late 90s away days at Stoke and Stockport 

[EssEffCee]

9 minutes ago, sfc4prem said:

Some might even say an ideal scenario. Back to grassroots and watch your club rise the leagues again.

Arguably would be just as much fun if not more so than winning the treble.

[Osvaldorama]

2 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Who knows,  I'll believe it when I see it. 

Top level football is so corrupt nothing surprises me anymore. 

How come HMRC arent involved if player salaries were understated if that resulted in less tax paid? 

Ultimately these rules are designed to protect the established teams like the Man Utds and Liverpool who had the resources, when you look at Man City its crazy really their owners wanted to spend spend spend (their own money) but couldn't as ratio to turnover prevented them, bet there are other owners that have used commercial deals to funnel money into clubs, wouldn't surprise me if Gao was trying that with the mythical LD Sports shirt sponsorship 🤣

They have to go hard here imo. The world is watching. 
 

The president of La Liga just said he hopes they push for the most severe punishment available as it has impacted the whole of Europe and the world

[EssEffCee]

2 minutes ago, Football Special said:

Who knows,  I'll believe it when I see it. 

Top level football is so corrupt nothing surprises me anymore. 

How come HMRC arent involved if player salaries were understated if that resulted in less tax paid? 

Ultimately these rules are designed to protect the established teams like the Man Utds and Liverpool who had the resources, when you look at Man City its crazy really their owners wanted to spend spend spend (their own money) but couldn't as ratio to turnover prevented them, bet there are other owners that have used commercial deals to funnel money into clubs, wouldn't surprise me if Gao was trying that with the mythical LD Sports shirt sponsorship 🤣

Yeah it's quite mad to think that 20 years ago overspending wouldn't even be against the rules. They deserve big punishment but the rules are bollocks.

Think both HMRC and the police will be involved eventually. 

[AlexLaw76]

Even punishment that ends with a single relegation this season is enough. So a -114 points this season would look 'harsh', but it wont be really

[Football Special]

Just now, Osvaldorama said:

They have to go hard here imo. The world is watching. 
 

The president of La Liga just said he hopes they push for the most severe punishment available as it has impacted the whole of Europe and the world

I remember Real Madrid in the late 90s doing dodgy deals with local government selling their training ground for inflated price to clear debts , its a mafia business 

[Osvaldorama]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Even punishment that ends with a single relegation this season is enough. So a -114 points this season would look 'harsh', but it wont be really

Nowhere near severe enough for me. They’ve changed football for the worse for more than a decade 

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, Osvaldorama said:

Nowhere near severe enough for me. They’ve changed football for the worse for more than a decade 

anything that results in just 1 season (potentially) out of the top flight is no where near big enough.

 

[die Mannyschaft]

Is any of this applicable for a bench mark? Probably just the first 10 points but then x by 10 for City.

 

The biggest point deduction in English football history is 30 points, given to Luton Town during the 2008–09 season. 

 

Major Details

 

 

 

• Club: Luton Town

• Season: 2008–09 (League Two)

• Reason: The Football Association (FA) handed down a 10-point penalty for illegal payments to player agents, and the English Football League (EFL) added a 20-point penalty for failing to exit administration with a proper Company Voluntary Agreement (CVA)
  .

• Result: Luton finished at the bottom of the table and dropped out of the Football League for the first time. 

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

53 minutes ago, saintant said:

If guilty how on earth can they possibly be allowed to stay in the league they cheated on for years on an industrial scale? This is not a few million it is absolute fortunes that enabled them to hoover up all the best senior players plus the elite youngsters from other clubs.

Good point in regards to elite youngsters. Due to all the cheating how much of an advantage have they had to get players in due to their successes.

[Football Special]

5 minutes ago, EssEffCee said:

Yeah it's quite mad to think that 20 years ago overspending wouldn't even be against the rules. They deserve big punishment but the rules are bollocks.

Think both HMRC and the police will be involved eventually. 

Yeah go back to the early 90s, Jack Walker sold his steel business and was able to bankroll Blackburn buying players for British record fees / wages that the club as a business could never afford based on turnover but he supplied the cash rather than debt, won the league and lived the dream. Other clubs (like us who had similar turnover) couldn't compete as we didn't have a benefactor. 

 

 

[AlexLaw76]

When their owners are forced to sell up, imagine any newbies will do a Chelsea and volunteer further citeh indiscretions found in the books

[sandwichsaint]

United to be given the Etihad as compo for being cheated out of the title and Citeh to ground share with Salford. Seems fair.

[Saint Scott]

44 minutes ago, Stripey McStripe Shirt said:

I don't really see how a single relegation would be punishment either. If they were relegated to the Championship they'd simply walk the league and probably be back in Europe (if not banned) within a couple of years.

Need to be thrown out of the league all together and work their way back up (fairly...).

From what I've read from a few Journalists the base line is relegation to League 2. 

For them to end up in the Championship or even League 1, they'd need a majority from the 72 clubs for this to happen by means of a vote.

This then opens a can of worms with the knock on effect of additional teams being promoted/relegated to get the league numbers back to the right level. But let's be honest, they wouldn't get the support from EFL clubs anyway 

[egg]

30 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

Nowhere near severe enough for me. They’ve changed football for the worse for more than a decade 

Yep, they've done all sorts of harm. Clubs like us have been massively impacted. Putting aside the on pitch advantage they've gained, they've driven up prices and wages. That's made it more difficult for us to remain competitive, and comply with PSR. 

The 16 championship clubs who were in the PL whilst City were cheating, could all point to City and argue that their antics directly and indirectly helped put them there. 

If this is upheld, the fall out should be massive 

Edited 3 hours ago by egg

[danjosaint]

3 minutes ago, sandwichsaint said:

United to be given the Etihad as compo for being cheated out of the title and Citeh to ground share with Salford. Seems fair.

Well utd, Arsenal and Spurs have lodged there appeal for compo should it happen 

[aintforever]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

Yep, they've done all sorts of harm. Clubs like us have been massively impacted. Putting aside the on pitch advantage they've gained, they've driven up prices and wages. That's made it more difficult for us to remain competitive, and comply with PSR. 

The 16 championship clubs who were in the PL whilst City were cheating, could all point to City and argue that their antics directly and indirectly helped out them there. 

If this is upheld, the fall out should be massive 

To be fair, many clubs have benefited from their money too.

I think they should have a massive points deduction this season then start next year in League 2 on -20 and maybe start each of the next few seasons on -20 to avoid them just having a jolly getting promoted every year.

Money talks though so I wouldn’t be surprised if they get away with a points deduction this year and massive fine. 

 

[Osvaldorama]

We are past just a points deduction and fine, I think. 
 

Even if the PL do something as weak and pathetic as that (which I doubt, because they have to preserve the league somehow.. the eyes of the world are watching), every other club will sue city into oblivion. The precedent there is already set by Burnley & Everton. 

We are in uncharted waters here. 

[AlexLaw76]

32 minutes ago, Saint Scott said:

From what I've read from a few Journalists the base line is relegation to League 2. 

For them to end up in the Championship or even League 1, they'd need a majority from the 72 clubs for this to happen by means of a vote.

This then opens a can of worms with the knock on effect of additional teams being promoted/relegated to get the league numbers back to the right level. But let's be honest, they wouldn't get the support from EFL clubs anyway 

I hope they stay in the premier league...don't want anything too damaging otherwise their ladies team will suffer.

[Tommy Mulgrew]

1 hour ago, Football Special said:

wouldn't surprise me if Gao was trying that with the mythical LD Sports shirt sponsorship

Ssssshhhhhhh!!!!!!

[Mustang Saint]

Running my own business, I'll be amazed if HMRC don't get involved as it's basically corporate fraud. If they do criminal chargers etc could well follow as falsifying company records is a huge red flag.

[Osvaldorama]

Their owners must be made to sell the club, at a minimum imo. 
 

Irreversible damage to the reputation of the PL. And the money side of the game has always been off putting anyway 

Edited 2 hours ago by Osvaldorama

[Sheaf Saint]

1 hour ago, sfc4prem said:

Some might even say an ideal scenario. Back to grassroots and watch your club rise the leagues again.

City fan I know (lifelong one from back when they were shit) desperately wants this to happen so he can go back to supporting a 'proper' club again.

[saintant]

18 minutes ago, Mustang Saint said:

Running my own business, I'll be amazed if HMRC don't get involved as it's basically corporate fraud. If they do criminal chargers etc could well follow as falsifying company records is a huge red flag.

I imagine Simon Pearce is bricking it.

[saintant]

Every match and trophy City won since the very first of the charges they face is tarnished and that includes the ones under Pep. All the financial cheating built the club up to where they are today so I don't consider it only covers the period up to 2018. All the cheating had a knock-on effect.

[Mustang Saint]

I would be amazed if after this they didn't follow up accounts for the following years. If precedent has been sent, you can only assume it's continued. Last year Ethiad sponsorship was still £90m a year and Puma £100m

[badgerx16]

4 hours ago, Toadhall Saint said:

He needs to roll with it (I’ll get me coat).

 

3 hours ago, die Mannyschaft said:

Some might say (you cheated)

"Don't look back in anger, you have to pay"

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said:

City fan I know (lifelong one from back when they were shit) desperately wants this to happen so he can go back to supporting a 'proper' club again.

My wife was a Junior Blue in the late 60's, and she says they are "not my club".