NickG Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Joint Administrator Mark Fry of Begbies Traynor has issued the following statement in response to today's Football League meeting... We were advised by the Pinnacle Group last week that they needed confirmation from the Football League that the notice of withdrawal for membership under its insolvency policy would be withdrawn. The Football League has insisted that in order to consent to a notice of withdrawal they require amongst other things an undertaking that the Football Club will not appeal the decision to deduct ten points next season. The proposed purchaser considered that the appeals procedures set down, not just by the Football League, but also by the Football Association are there to be used when there is a legal question that surrounds the decision and in accordance with the principles of natural and fair justice, the football club should be left with the opportunity to appeal if it so chooses. To remove that right to appeal in return for the notice of withdrawal is an incredible abuse of power. This has left the Administrator trying to conclude a sale in a situation where the buyer is unable to reach an agreement with the Football League. The Administrator understands that the buyers are currently considering this matter and hope to have further information during the course of tomorrow. In the meantime, the exclusivity period has expired and the Administrators have reopened discussions with other parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP Saint Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Joint Administrator Mark Fry of Begbies Traynor has issued the following statement in response to today's Football League meeting... We were advised by the Pinnacle Group last week that they needed confirmation from the Football League that the notice of withdrawal for membership under its insolvency policy would be withdrawn. The Football League has insisted that in order to consent to a notice of withdrawal they require amongst other things an undertaking that the Football Club will not appeal the decision to deduct ten points next season. The proposed purchaser considered that the appeals procedures set down, not just by the Football League, but also by the Football Association are there to be used when there is a legal question that surrounds the decision and in accordance with the principles of natural and fair justice, the football club should be left with the opportunity to appeal if it so chooses. To remove that right to appeal in return for the notice of withdrawal is an incredible abuse of power. This has left the Administrator trying to conclude a sale in a situation where the buyer is unable to reach an agreement with the Football League. The Administrator understands that the buyers are currently considering this matter and hope to have further information during the course of tomorrow. In the meantime, the exclusivity period has expired and the Administrators have reopened discussions with other parties. In other words if another party is willing to pay for exclusivity and effectively keep the club alive for another month Fry will accept it with open arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 'To remove that right to appeal in return for the notice of withdrawal is an incredible abuse of power.' Damn ****ing right it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sussexsaint Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 ******** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 'To remove that right to appeal in return for the notice of withdrawal is an incredible abuse of power.' Damn ****ing right it is. They did exactly the same with Leeds and the Independent Arbitration Panel found in favour of the League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sussexsaint Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 So Lynams statement that 'we will buy the club' is either wrong or by stating it openly he has scuppered his chances of the FL backing down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 This doesn't really add anything though does it? Pinnacle are considering their position and Fry is saying the FL have been a joke. Surely after thinking about it Pinnacle will just press ahead without the appeal? (Afterall its only 10points) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amesbury Saint Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 'To remove that right to appeal in return for the notice of withdrawal is an incredible abuse of power.' Damn ****ing right it is. what Saints need to do is to accept the -10 and then once inside the club try and change the rules by gaining support from other chairmen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holbury Saint Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Link????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Link????????? See OS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 22 June, 2009 Author Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Link????????? why???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Link????????? Goto the Saints official site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 22 June, 2009 Author Share Posted 22 June, 2009 So Lynams statement that 'we will buy the club' is either wrong or by stating it openly he has scuppered his chances of the FL backing down His interview on South Today basically said one of us will compromise. If one party is saying this not the other its normally clear you are about to back down! He said it won't stop deal and would buy the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustMike Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 They did exactly the same with Leeds and the Independent Arbitration Panel found in favour of the League. plenty of back handers there then! Its about time something was done about the way the league conducts itself. Can us as fans do anthing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 what Saints need to do is to accept the -10 and then once inside the club try and change the rules by gaining support from other chairmen. I wouldn't even do that tbh - I'd get the club and bloody well forget about the -10. There are more important things to do. I.E - Players / Manager/ and winning those 4 games to write the -10 off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 His interview on South Today basically said one of us will compromise. If one party is saying this not the other its normally clear you are about to back down! He said it won't stop deal and would buy the club. And he has now said this a few times. Pinnacle have surely planned or this, or at least thought about it and will surely now press ahead with the deal. They could even take up the whole appeal thing later on. After all the work they have put in, this will surely not put them off. And by all accounts everything else is ready to go.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 22 June, 2009 Author Share Posted 22 June, 2009 No-one else will be able to complete the deal for weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saints Pedro Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 From the Echo website Pinnacle boss Tony Lynam has insisted today’s Football League ruling is “not a deal breaker.” As reported earlier on the Daily Echo’s website, the League are believed to have told the group that they want any potential purchaser to agree not to appeal the ten point deduction in order to issue Saints their license to play in League One next season. That has led to fears the Pinnacle deal will collapse. However, Lynam told the Echo: “The bottom line is the Football League have considered part of what we want in the agreement for the purchase. “They are tonight sending across details of what they want which are not the same things. “We need to read it, digest it and chat about it. “There is no animosity between us and the League, in fact quite the opposite. “We are not on the same wavelength but it will be sorted out. Simple as that. “It’s not a deal breaker.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wightman35 Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 If we were called " West Ham" would the league have banned the right to appeal or even deducted the points in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 'To remove that right to appeal in return for the notice of withdrawal is an incredible abuse of power.' Damn ****ing right it is. But actually, it isn't. "Join our league on these conditions, which relate to rules your predecessor broke, or don't join our league". Not an incredibe abuse of power in anyone's language. If TL and co can find us a better league to play in, then he should go right ahead and fill his boots. In other news, Saints playing debt-free in a £30m stadium we paid £10m for in the end is an "incredible abuse of power" against a creditor backed into a position of chosing between not many (rubbish) options including sitting on a worthless empty second hand football stadium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niceandfriendly Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Yeah, nothing new here. Pinnacle still want the club and the 10 points aren't a deal breaker, and Fry has to listen to other offers. Certainly nothing on that statement which suggests what Lynam said earlier was wrong. Either themselves or the League will change their stance, and when that happens they will complete. It's nice for the OS to wake up and join in with the rest of us though. What a shambles that website really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docker-p Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 I think Pinnacle should stick to their guns. Maybe we should have -10 points, maybe not. But to withdraw the right to appeal is an acknowledgement that they know they are wrong and the sort of stunt pulled by tinpot South American dictators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niceandfriendly Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 But actually, it isn't. "Join our league on these conditions, which relate to rules your predecessor broke, or don't join our league". Not an incredibe abuse of power in anyone's language. If TL and co can find us a better league to play in, then he should go right ahead and fill his boots. In other news, Saints playing debt-free in a £30m stadium we paid £10m for in the end is an "incredible abuse of power" against a creditor backed into a position of chosing between not many (rubbish) options including sitting on a worthless empty second hand football stadium. Some people just still aren't getting this are they? They're not saying the 10 points deduction is an incredible abuse of power, they are saying that everyone has a right to an appeal by law. Not allowing them an appeal IS an incredible abuse of power "in anyone's language". Yes, we probably deserve the deduction, but we also deserve an appeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Some people just still aren't getting this are they? They're not saying the 10 points deduction is an incredible abuse of power, they are saying that everyone has a right to an appeal by law. Not allowing them an appeal IS an incredible abuse of power "in anyone's language". Yes, we probably deserve the deduction, but we also deserve an appeal. Sorry, it isn't. This is a sporting league run as a members club. Not the Khmer Rouge. And you'll notice I didn't mention the 10 points on my post. The league have given us reasonable condition of entry to the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary r Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 I think Pinnacle should stick to their guns. Maybe we should have -10 points, maybe not. But to withdraw the right to appeal is an acknowledgement that they know they are wrong and the sort of stunt pulled by tinpot South American dictators. what other choice do they have but to take the punishment and move on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustMike Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Sorry, it isn't. This is a sporting league run as a members club. Not the Khmer Rouge. And you'll notice I didn't mention the 10 points on my post. The league have given us reasonable condition of entry to the league. you dont get this do you? We were told, by Lord whats his name that the football club could appeal. Now we are being told that we cant. Why, because the league know we have a case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wild-saint Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 But actually, it isn't. "Join our league on these conditions, which relate to rules your predecessor broke, or don't join our league". Not an incredibe abuse of power in anyone's language. If TL and co can find us a better league to play in, then he should go right ahead and fill his boots. In other news, Saints playing debt-free in a £30m stadium we paid £10m for in the end is an "incredible abuse of power" against a creditor backed into a position of chosing between not many (rubbish) options including sitting on a worthless empty second hand football stadium. Financial institution in reaping what it sows shocker. Serves them right IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS1980 Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Maybe they should just accept defeat on getting the right to appeal, take over and get the start of the new era started. the longer it goes on, the less time the new man will have to get his own players in, we may miss out of some as a result. Wotte will go if he doesn't know one way or another by 30th June as thats when his contract is up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WealdSaint Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Mr Fry isn't a happy man me thinks, "incredible abuse of power" are strong words from someone who has been pretty measured so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 If we were called " West Ham" would the league have banned the right to appeal or even deducted the points in the first place? If we were called West Ham the League would not be involved. And if you think the League are a problem, then the FA are far far worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Mr Fry isn't a happy man me thinks, "incredible abuse of power" are strong words from someone who has been pretty measured so far. Also suggests he is backing Pinnacle rather than thinking they are wasting his time.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Sorry, it isn't. This is a sporting league run as a members club. Not the Khmer Rouge. And you'll notice I didn't mention the 10 points on my post. The league have given us reasonable condition of entry to the league. Er, we know we were wrong so sign up to a deal to become a member where you refuse to appeal a judgement that we know or suspect was wrong... Or, chances are you probably did play by the rules, so just in case, to prop up our dodgy position, waive your right to a fair trial. You're wrong it is the Khmer rRuge, or The Crucible, or Stalin's Mother Russia - take your pick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint In Exile Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 you dont get this do you? We were told, by Lord whats his name that the football club could appeal. Now we are being told that we cant. Why, because the league know we have a case. It may it may not be because the league think we have a case but, at the end of the day, the league can stipulate whatever conditions they like in order to grant any particular group membership of it's "club"... All they are saying is "if you want to be in our gang then you play by our rules or you're not in the gang and we reserve the right to change the rules whenever we want"!!!! Unfair, very possibly, illegial, I seriously doubt it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelkel31 Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Sorry, it isn't. This is a sporting league run as a members club. Not the Khmer Rouge. And you'll notice I didn't mention the 10 points on my post. The league have given us reasonable condition of entry to the league. a casino is a members only club, are they allowed to have rules that state whilst in the club there employees are allowed to ****ing beat the **** out of you, no they aren't, they still have to abide by the bloody laws of the land, there is no argument on this (this is obviously an extreme analogy but makes a point!) i have this idea in my head that the FL has to have a license to organize events such as a football league and even if they dont im sure the clubs have to have such a license to conduct matches in front of the public, if so the actions of the FL and in turn its members should surely put themselves in a position where there are grounds for these licenses to be revoked as the right to appeal is a basic right that must be provided, to remove this right should be considered a very serious offense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 a casino is a members only club, are they allowed to have rules that state whilst in the club there employees are allowed to ****ing beat the **** out of you, no they aren't, they still have to abide by the bloody laws of the land, there is no argument on this (this is obviously an extreme analogy but makes a point!) i have this idea in my head that the FL has to have a license to organize events such as a football league and even if they dont im sure the clubs have to have such a license to conduct matches in front of the public, if so the actions of the FL and in turn its members should surely put themselves in a position where there are grounds for these licenses to be revoked as the right to appeal is a basic right that must be provided, to remove this right should be considered a very serious offense! The problem is that turkeys don't vote for Christmas. All the other Chairman will be saying 'good, one less club to compete against', until it happens to THEM! And the sooner some big clubs go to the wall the better for all of football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordonToo Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 In the meantime, the exclusivity period has expired and the Administrators have reopened discussions with other parties. If the Swiss (or others) can trump the current bid and stump up the £500K deposit Pinaccle will be out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarehamRed Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 What I genuinely don't understand in all this is that the league, being a members organisation, should be bending over backwards to ensure one of it's members does not go out of business. In fact, they seem to be doing the complete opposite by deliberatley putting barriers in the way of a successful outcome. Why? By allowing an appeal, and whtever the result of the appeal, everything would be clear and above board, and neither side would have any complaints. By taking the course of action they have, they appear embarrased at best, and dishonest at worst. I just don't understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 you dont get this do you? We were told, by Lord whats his name that the football club could appeal. Now we are being told that we cant. Why, because the league know we have a case. You don't get that we do not have a case. The FL just want us to shut us up so they can get on with running a football competition. The FL would walk through one appeal, two appeals, ten appeals. Take it to the f*cking pope. We would never win, we have no case whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 a casino is a members only club, are they allowed to have rules that state whilst in the club there employees are allowed to ****ing beat the **** out of you, no they aren't, they still have to abide by the bloody laws of the land, there is no argument on this (this is obviously an extreme analogy but makes a point!) i have this idea in my head that the FL has to have a license to organize events such as a football league and even if they dont im sure the clubs have to have such a license to conduct matches in front of the public, if so the actions of the FL and in turn its members should surely put themselves in a position where there are grounds for these licenses to be revoked as the right to appeal is a basic right that must be provided, to remove this right should be considered a very serious offense! Not sure I have ever said the league is allowed to do anything illegal. Reasonable conditions of entry is not the same as employees of a casino beating people up. Christ, I'm ****ing in the wind today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 you dont get this do you? We were told, by Lord whats his name that the football club could appeal. Now we are being told that we cant. Why, because the league know we have a case. That's not what I get from the FL statement. To me, that says all teams must be aware of exactly where they [and everyone else] stands at the beginning of the season. Maybe they are hinting that we can appeal, but we must conclude that appeal BEFORE the season starts :smt102 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockportsaint Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Some people just still aren't getting this are they? They're not saying the 10 points deduction is an incredible abuse of power, they are saying that everyone has a right to an appeal by law. Not allowing them an appeal IS an incredible abuse of power "in anyone's language". Yes, we probably deserve the deduction, but we also deserve an appeal. My thoughts exactly. Morally we always deserved the 10 pt penalty, but to deny the right of appeal is against all the natural laws of justice. Even Peter Sutcliffe and Myra Hindley had the right of appeal, whether they chose to use it is another matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 What I genuinely don't understand in all this is that the league, being a members organisation, should be bending over backwards to ensure one of it's members does not go out of business. In fact, they seem to be doing the complete opposite by deliberatley putting barriers in the way of a successful outcome. Why? By allowing an appeal, and whtever the result of the appeal, everything would be clear and above board, and neither side would have any complaints. By taking the course of action they have, they appear embarrased at best, and dishonest at worst. I just don't understand it. If you ran a club paid for by your members and one by one they started to die or become gravely ill and you were responsible for their well-being, would you kick them in the nuts? Me neither. But this is the role the League have created for themselves. They should be working with ALL members to ensure financial stability and longevity of football clubs, surely to God. And this is irrespective of our plight - this is the crisis facing league clubs which the league appear totally oblivious too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 (edited) If you ran a club paid for by your members and one by one they started to die or become gravely ill and you were responsible for their well-being, would you kick them in the nuts? Me neither. But this is the role the League have created for themselves. They should be working with ALL members to ensure financial stability and longevity of football clubs, surely to God. And this is irrespective of our plight - this is the crisis facing league clubs which the league appear totally oblivious too. Eh? So just to confirm any club can run up any debts they like, plead poverty and start again. Surely the whole point of the 10 point rule is to stop clubs running up debt they can't manage? But you can't have rules without some sanctions. Come on. Normally sensible people on this forum (yes, you ) have gone quite mad. Edited 22 June, 2009 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FarehamRed Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 If you ran a club paid for by your members and one by one they started to die or become gravely ill and you were responsible for their well-being, would you kick them in the nuts? Me neither. But this is the role the League have created for themselves. They should be working with ALL members to ensure financial stability and longevity of football clubs, surely to God. And this is irrespective of our plight - this is the crisis facing league clubs which the league appear totally oblivious too. Exactly. IF the FL have made a c*ck-up, the only way to learn lessons is to bring the matter into the open and move on. What they're trying to do is sweep everything under the carpet. This is poor leadership and management. Shame on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubsaint Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 MLT and others have to have faith in the team they plan to build and get rid of the 10 point deduction by hitting the ground running and win games, the longer this sh1t goes on what type of pressure is it putting on any side to get out of league 1 with as Wotte himself calls the worst pre season he has ever experienced, its time people thought about whats the best direction for this football club. We went into admin last season, and you can tart it up whatever way you like, lets take the punishment and move on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint63 Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 Eh? So just to confirm any club can run up any debts they like, plead poverty and start again. Surely the whole point of the 10 point rule is to stop clubs running up debt they can't manage? But you can't have rules without some sanctions. Come on. Normally sensible people on this forum (yes, you ) have gone quite mad. I agree - the decision to dock us 10 points is probably correct. However, what is at issue is the right to appeal against a punishment. An appeal process should always be attached to a decision like this. Failure to do this shows weakness and a lack of confidence in the organisation itself. If the FL wishes to be seen as a mature institution it needs to behave in the appropriately fair way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordswoodsaints Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 f@ck me,just sign the form,get in the door then hit them anyway with a court case.....contracts in football aint worth a w@nk so whats the difference with this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 It's enfuriating. I probably concede we deserve the ten point penalty - but refusing to allow Saints to play in League One unless Pinnacle surrender all rights of apeal is, as others have said, disgraceful. I don't even see why the appeal needs to be dealt with before the kick off at the first game. Points deductions have been made in the course of a season before - including a coupel of occassions last season. Okay, it migth be bad news to see Saints win an appeal after 42 or 43 games, but I don't see why it would be a problem in, say, September or October. What I don't know - and I doubt many posters do - is whether the League's behaviour is illegal in some way. One school of thought seems to be that it's the FL's league, so they can impose whatever rules they want. But there are obviously legal limits to this. I'd doubt that they could apply conditions such as (a) you must write a personal cheque of £10,000to Lord Mawhinney or (b) you must sack all your black players etc. So, the real question is whether rescinding the right to appeal is on the legal or illegal side of the line. I suspect it is illegal and subject to judicial review, but I'm not a lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicestersaint Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 I must say that the Football league come out of thsi very badly indeed. I believe that blackmail of this kind would be very seriously criticised if this ever came before a court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sussex Saint Posted 22 June, 2009 Share Posted 22 June, 2009 What the FL is doing verges on blackmail. Pinnacle and the club are in a perilous position and the FL are taking full advantage, it is an abuse of power/undue influence by the FL. Pinnacle should accept the terms and move on. They can then challenge the legality of what the FL are in effect forcing on them, ie waiver of rights of appeal. It seems to me that if this is illegal in law then any agreement to waiver the right of appeal would not be legally enforceable by the FL and the club could then pursue their appeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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