ozzmeister Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 I was thinking the other day when we got our most recent draw in the cup that "yes easy teams, low divisions should be a complete walkover." However then i started thinking is this because I still have the same thinking as I did when we were in Prem or to a lesser extent the CCC. Rotherham especially are a very inform team and only a divison (or 7 positions below us). Do others still share this subconcious though that we are still a Prem Team 'big club' when it comes to these draws or is it just me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackFrost Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 I was thinking the other day when we got our most recent draw in the cup that "yes easy teams, low divisions should be a complete walkover." However then i started thinking is this because I still have the same thinking as I did when we were in Prem or to a lesser extent the CCC. Rotherham especially are a very inform team and only a divison (or 7 positions below us). Do others still share this subconcious though that we are still a Prem Team 'big club' when it comes to these draws or is it just me? I think we should beat most if not all L1 sides routinely and any L2 side convincingly. (Emphasise the word 'should') I think we'll give most championship sides a run for their money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 No, we are not a big club in this competition. Part of the reason that i would like to see us concentrating on the league, and to a lesser extend the JPT where we are a big club. Nethertheless i would say that smaller clubs would come to us as a decent day out and raising their game as we were previously a big boy in the footballing world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Jazzbo Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 I no longer view Saints as a big club, we're a league 1 club with a big ground(in that league), with good training facilities, etc. But we're no different in footballing terms to any other team in league 1. I suspect some people will have the view that playing us is 'Rotherham's Cup Final'. Which from my point of view is a bit arrogant, after all they've earned the right to play in the 3rd round the same as we have. I think it shows a lack of respect for lower league clubs. To some degree its a good draw for them, its a ground they've never played at before, plenty of tickets available, so its a good day out. They've beat us before, so they will see us as very beatable. They are a good side, and wont be easy. Having said all that they've still got to beat Luton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 We are a reasonable L1 club, that's it. But then again Millwall got to the Final in 2004 from L1! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Jazzbo Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 We are a reasonable L1 club, that's it. But then again Millwall got to the Final in 2004 from L1! They were in the CCC in 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graffito Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 A touch of humility hasn't gone amiss. This, and a certain credibility I have always thought attaches to supporters of lower league sides are two of the few, very few, benefits of supporting a lower league side. And we do it well by turning up in numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 But then again Millwall got to the Final in 2004 from L1! No they didn't, they were in the Championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 Nope - biggest misconception that quite a few still appear unable to grasp. We are a league one side - on merit - simple. Wigan, Hull, Pompey, Blackpool, Barnesly and Plymouth are (at this moment in time) bigger draws, simply because they more successful than us. I think it is a problem, not only with fans, but also players - that some think that they can live on past glories (even if they did not contribute to those..!). All of that said - AP appears to be cracking the whip - getting the team to do the work in order to reap the rewards. Big Club - nope - not at the moment - but give it a couple of years and perhaps we can rightly claim to be in that league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theyin Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 I think even after a few years in the CCC I was not prepared to acknowledge our lesser standing. That all came to a shattering end at the end of last season. I couldn't help but think Rotherham/Luton "Easy", I admit, then the harsh realities of past experience fall into line. We should do it though, shouldn't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a1ex2001 Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 Wigan, Hull, Pompey, Blackpool, Barnesly and Plymouth are (at this moment in time) bigger draws, simply because they more successful than us. That statement works right up to the point you use it to say it would be a bigger game for us if we drew Hull as opposed to Newcastle. Certain teams maintain a lustre no matter what division they are in and having a big financial backing adds to this, to alot of clubs at this level and velow we are still a massive scalp look at the way Brighton have released a DVD of there victory the other day. We are not a 'Big' club perse and never really have been but we are certainly a big club at this level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 I'd be delighted, for example, to get CCC Newcastle away as they are still a big club despite their league status. League standing oftens means nowt in this respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 That statement works right up to the point you use it to say it would be a bigger game for us if we drew Hull as opposed to Newcastle. Certain teams maintain a lustre no matter what division they are in and having a big financial backing adds to this, to alot of clubs at this level and velow we are still a massive scalp look at the way Brighton have released a DVD of there victory the other day. We are not a 'Big' club perse and never really have been but we are certainly a big club at this level. Can't disagree with that alex - but the 'big club' mentality is nothing buy hype. How has a big club succumbed to the likes of Brighton then? Simple answer - we are not a big club, we used to be a big club. Realisation that we no longer frequent the Premiership - therefore we do not have superior players means that in order to win games - we have to work - and work bloody hard. Yes other teams will look at our recent history and want to 'do us' - but that is for us to come to terms with and deal with. Past 'big club' history will get you no points in any games, if anything it is a burdon. The Brighton DVD thing great - but let's be honest - was there more South Coast rivalry in there, as opposed to the fact that we are a Big Club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a1ex2001 Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 (edited) Can't disagree with that alex - but the 'big club' mentality is nothing buy hype. How has a big club succumbed to the likes of Brighton then? Simple answer - we are not a big club, we used to be a big club. Realisation that we no longer frequent the Premiership - therefore we do not have superior players means that in order to win games - we have to work - and work bloody hard. Yes other teams will look at our recent history and want to 'do us' - but that is for us to come to terms with and deal with. Past 'big club' history will get you no points in any games, if anything it is a burdon. The Brighton DVD thing great - but let's be honest - was there more South Coast rivalry in there, as opposed to the fact that we are a Big Club? Let me re-iterate to be clear. We are not a 'BIG' club and never have been. We are a 'MASSIVE club in League one terms' our finances, facilities and fan base make us so. We are a big scalp at this level and I'm sure Rotherham or Luton would take more pleasure indrawing and beating us than some Championship nobody clubs like doncaster or Peterborough. Edited 30 November, 2009 by a1ex2001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madsent Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 I was thinking the other day when we got our most recent draw in the cup that "yes easy teams, low divisions should be a complete walkover." However then i started thinking is this because I still have the same thinking as I did when we were in Prem or to a lesser extent the CCC. Rotherham especially are a very inform team and only a division (or 7 positions below us). Do others still share this subconscious though that we are still a Prem Team 'big club' when it comes to these draws or is it just me? Although we think of ourselves as a big club in the FA Cup, having won it, our record proves otherwise. Since the start of the Premiership, we've been pretty poor and have lost to lower league opposition 6 times - Port Vale in 1994, Reading in 1997, Fulham in 1999, Tranmere in 2001, Rotherham in 2002, Bristol Rovers in 2008. What makes it worse is that 3 of those defeats were replays. Our record against Premier League opposition is also appalling. In that time, we've won 3 and lost 11 against Premier League teams. We've gone out in the 3rd round 8 times and we have won a grand total of 23 games in 17 seasons and 2 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonManager Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 Although we think of ourselves as a big club in the FA Cup, having won it, our record proves otherwise. Since the start of the Premiership, we've been pretty poor and have lost to lower league opposition 6 times - Port Vale in 1994, Reading in 1997, Fulham in 1999, Tranmere in 2001, Rotherham in 2002, Bristol Rovers in 2008. What makes it worse is that 3 of those defeats were replays. Our record against Premier League opposition is also appalling. In that time, we've won 3 and lost 11 against Premier League teams. We've gone out in the 3rd round 8 times and we have won a grand total of 23 games in 17 seasons and 2 rounds. Yeah but apart from that we've been unbeatable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 (edited) I was thinking the other day when we got our most recent draw in the cup that "yes easy teams, low divisions should be a complete walkover." However then i started thinking is this because I still have the same thinking as I did when we were in Prem or to a lesser extent the CCC. Rotherham especially are a very inform team and only a divison (or 7 positions below us). Do others still share this subconcious though that we are still a Prem Team 'big club' when it comes to these draws or is it just me? Well of course are THE big club... in this league. (If for no other reason than we have an owner who's prepared to spend £1 mill. on one player !) Our 27 season history in the Prem./Div 1 gives us the reputation of a big club, and we certainly have the facilities and our ground is as good as / better than a some of the present Prem. clubs. BUT it's really down to the TEAM we put out each match, and there we are probably lacking a bit. OK - if we beat Leeds twice this season we can say we are a big club in L1 but we may still not get a play-off spot, because of the -10. I note that of 9 away League games so far (apart from the 19000 who were at Charlton), only 2 other away sides had more than 10,000 for our visits - and the rest struggled to get half that. Coming to SMS must be rather like visiting a Prem.side and (facility-wise ) the closest their fans will get to a big match occasion.The stadiums certainly play a part.Take Sheff.Wed. (a very successful club in my young days and always a Div.1 side,) but have spent the best part of the last 30 years in lower leagues. Hillsborough is an impressive arena by any standards - but the team has been only mediocre for many years past. AS for " form " ..many promoted sides struggle when they go up a league and that is obvious from the up/down syndrome that clubs at the top end of CCC suffer from. Hull were lucky to survive last season and Pom*ey already had the skids under them last spring. On average 2 of 3 (recently) promoted sides drop out of the Prem. each season. Being top of L2 doesn't mean you are good enough to be at the top end of L1 next year. Rotherham ..(if they win replay) may well be good opposition, but it's up to us to show the consistancy of Leeds and Charlton - if we are to move up, and " taking care " of lower teams is essential - if we are to succeed. Edited 30 November, 2009 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 I still find it very difficult not to fall into 'ÿay we've got a lower league team' camp :cool: It is an attitude we should have managed to have got rid of after a couple of seasons failing against teams of supposedly lesser status week in week out . Although there may have been some initial disappointment at both luton and Rotherham, at missing out on one of the 'real' big boys, the chance of coming to our nice new shiny ground and having a realistic chance of winning against a bigger team will no doubt start to look appealing once the replay is done and dusted. Rotherham average barely 3000 at home in the league, and although non league Luton more than double that with an average of around 7000 (!) their home 1st round match v Rochdale attracted barely 3000. But I wouldn't mind betting whoever gets through will suddenly be able to muster an away support of 3000 at SMS. However, I wonder, would there be such an appeal if they were playing against any the majority of the other League 1 teams? I doubt it. Does this mean that other teams still look upon us as a big club? Most League 1 teams bring quite big followings to SMS in relation/proportion to their home support .... maybe it's our world class catering that attracts them :grin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hackedoff Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 Not sure what I want from cup draws now, a small side in order to progress,but not make much money from it,or a big team away,lose but make a bit. Do we need the money from say Man U away now or just get as far as we can for the fun of it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 Not sure what I want from cup draws now, a small side in order to progress,but not make much money from it,or a big team away,lose but make a bit. Do we need the money from say Man U away now or just get as far as we can for the fun of it ? Now there's a word that you couldn't use in connection with Saints over the last few years ... until now. Watching/listening to the matches really is a fun thing to do again ... thanks ML and AP and supporting cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAFE_SAINT Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 We'll always be a big club in my eyes. Sorry got to go, Arsene wants his glasses back and wishes to you my computer now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAFE_SAINT Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 use** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenilworthy Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 Although we think of ourselves as a big club in the FA Cup, having won it, our record proves otherwise. Since the start of the Premiership, we've been pretty poor and have lost to lower league opposition 6 times - Port Vale in 1994, Reading in 1997, Fulham in 1999, Tranmere in 2001, Rotherham in 2002, Bristol Rovers in 2008. What makes it worse is that 3 of those defeats were replays. Our record against Premier League opposition is also appalling. In that time, we've won 3 and lost 11 against Premier League teams. We've gone out in the 3rd round 8 times and we have won a grand total of 23 games in 17 seasons and 2 rounds. Good point. But it's worse than that, we have been easy meat in the cup for lower division sides since way before the Premiership started - Barnsley at home in 85, Leicester away in 82, Birmingham away in 80, Villa after a replay in 69, Leicester after a replay in 1970, Bristol City in 67. And I will never get over losing at home to Wrexham in the 5th round in 74. We should also remember that if Rotherham get through they will be looking for their 4th consecutive cup win against us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 I no longer view Saints as a big club, we're a league 1 club with a big ground(in that league), with good training facilities, etc. But we're no different in footballing terms to any other team in league 1. . tosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 We're not even the biggest club in League 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junction 9 Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 What does Pardew mean in the Echo tonight when he says "I'd be happy putting this team up against anyone with the exception of Tottenham at home on a Tuesday night" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 In terms of league position we are not a big club, but in terms of average attendances where do we stand? As far as I'm concerned we are the biggest club in the world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 30 November, 2009 Share Posted 30 November, 2009 In terms of league position we are not a big club, but in terms of average attendances where do we stand? As far as I'm concerned we are the biggest club in the world! Leeds kick our ar*e in virtually every measurable statistic, except how much money we spent in the summer. However, if we use that one we're saying that Man City are a bigger club than Man Utd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutch Posted 1 December, 2009 Share Posted 1 December, 2009 To be really honest, I'd have been scared of Rotherham or Luton even when we were in the Prem. We've always been fair game for the giant-killers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintDonkey Posted 1 December, 2009 Share Posted 1 December, 2009 I saw Rotherham / Luton at home and thought 'winnable', I would never think 'easy'. We're not a big team, we might have been had our success in the early eighties been back by investment, but it wasn't. However we are a 'big scalp' for lower league teams, just look at Brighton's DVD releasing glee at beating us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 1 December, 2009 Share Posted 1 December, 2009 We ceased being a big club in the FA Cup this season at the point where they introduced the 44 teams who got byes into the 3rd round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 1 December, 2009 Share Posted 1 December, 2009 There are half a dozen big teams in the FA Cup and we are not one of them. However we are probably bigger than some of the other smaller clubs left in the competition who would certainly see us as a big club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Jazzbo Posted 1 December, 2009 Share Posted 1 December, 2009 tosh Whats an assassinated reggae singer got to do with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 1 December, 2009 Share Posted 1 December, 2009 What the fans 'believe' or think about our 'status' is frankly irrelevent, although can be arrogant. Whats important is for the club, the management and the players to get teh balance right. Be modest enough to recognise that we are a L1 club that needs rebuilding to progress, but that all those involved have a part to play in that growth, but also ambitious enough to attract the right people to make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joensuu Posted 1 December, 2009 Share Posted 1 December, 2009 I'm sure I saw some stats a few years ago that had us down as the 16th largest support in Britain (so 14th largest support in England & Wales). In terms of what we have achieved in out 124 years, 14th 'biggest' feels about right. Obviously we are not the 14th best team in the country (we'd probably lose to at least 35 teams in the top two divisions), but maybe we are still the 14th biggest (just!). As Ponty points out, we aren't even the 'biggest' club in division one. However, that's only because Leeds are down here with us. I can't remember where Leeds were in the stats, but I think they were about 6-8th biggest. Does anyone remember that table of 'number of supporters'? Think it was published about 2000-2002 ish (I seem to recall it was authored by Deloitte?) Would love to find the link again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 1 December, 2009 Share Posted 1 December, 2009 I'm sure I saw some stats a few years ago that had us down as the 16th largest support in Britain (so 14th largest support in England & Wales). In terms of what we have achieved in out 124 years, 14th 'biggest' feels about right. Obviously we are not the 14th best team in the country (we'd probably lose to at least 35 teams in the top two divisions), but maybe we are still the 14th biggest (just!). As Ponty points out, we aren't even the 'biggest' club in division one. However, that's only because Leeds are down here with us. I can't remember where Leeds were in the stats, but I think they were about 6-8th biggest. Does anyone remember that table of 'number of supporters'? Think it was published about 2000-2002 ish (I seem to recall it was authored by Deloitte?) Would love to find the link again. For the 14th Club in the country we have achieved very little I would have thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joensuu Posted 1 December, 2009 Share Posted 1 December, 2009 (edited) For the 14th Club in the country we have achieved very little I would have thought I guess, but it depends what you expect the 14th biggest club to achieve. I mean, you might imagine they could possibly win a cup or two, and get to semi/quarter-finals on several occasions, perhaps even get a few seasons when they punch above their weight and finish in the top half of the top division. Our level of success might look a bit slim, but it's probably about right.. Edited 1 December, 2009 by Joensuu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec Posted 1 December, 2009 Share Posted 1 December, 2009 According to http://itv.stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/D2/attend.html our average league attendance so far this season is 20012 - the 3rd best in league 1 behind Norwich and Leeds. 10 Championship and 18 Premiership clubs (Pompey and Wigan being the exceptions) have a higher average. So by that measure we are the 31st biggest club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joensuu Posted 1 December, 2009 Share Posted 1 December, 2009 So by that measure we are the 31st biggest club. Depends whether club 'size' is measured purely by current position/attendance; or whether historical factors, fanbase, potential, and facitilies are factored in. I'd warrent 31st is probably about the right in relation to the strength of our current team... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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