Breaking down a defence

[Thedelldays]

yesterday was take 1 of 23 or so of teams coming here and sitting behind the ball....we did not pass the first test

 

what do we need to do differently to combat this...this is not a new problem..

(just waiting to be told we need to learn how to win on crap pitches)

 

obviously lambert is key but I feel at the mo, our season is litterally dependent on him not being injured at all.....if that is the case, I really hope he does not play a single minute of a cup game..

 

thoughts..?

[sadoldgit]

I hope he plays every minute of every game. Teams thrive on confidence and good cup runs help in that respect. We scored an awful lot of goals last season and occasionally didn't. There is no reason why this season should be different. Granted, the start was not fantsatic but we are notoriously slow starters and going into the first game without two of your best offensive players is not helpful.

 

I stall think the red hot favourites thing is rubbish and unhelpful but we will have to live with that. We should be a top 6 team though ut we all know we are still 2 players short and hopefully that can be sorted soon.

[Thedelldays]

being notoriously slow starters is a nothing reason...means nothing

[Katalinic]

yesterday was take 1 of 23 or so of teams coming here and sitting behind the ball....we did not pass the first test

 

what do we need to do differently to combat this...this is not a new problem..

(just waiting to be told we need to learn how to win on crap pitches)

 

obviously lambert is key but I feel at the mo, our season is litterally dependent on him not being injured at all.....if that is the case, I really hope he does not play a single minute of a cup game..

 

thoughts..?

 

The way to play these teams is to stretch them - the only way of doing this is the effective use of wingers - preferably ones with the ability to get the by-line and cross.

[SaintRichmond]

The way to play these teams is to stretch them - the only way of doing this is the effective use of wingers - preferably ones with the ability to get the by-line and cross.

 

Too True

 

Terry Paine was the master at that

 

Took the ball to the Goal line , then crossed it BACk acroos goal, still the hardest thing for a defender to defend against

 

And Paine "floated" it over, not bl;asted it across at the speed of light

 

It makes you wonder what Coaches do these days

[Andy_Porter]

being notoriously slow starters is a nothing reason...means nothing

 

Agreed.

 

I think the problem was obvious, we created a lot of chances in the first half just didn't take any of them. The crossing for a change was inch perfect in the first half, Hammond should have had two and if Lambert was in there getting on the end of things he would have probably scored in the first 45.

 

We need more goals from the centre of midfield and have done for a while. Hammond gets his head on so much, just can't get the ball into the right sort of areas. I find he's quite frustrating as a player, he really could be so much better as a player if he just started to get a few more basic things right.

[(not THE) Kevin Moore]

To be fair if either Lallana or Lambert had been fit enough to start we'd have won comfortably yesterday, missing both of them was a big blow but when Lallana came on he carved out some very good chances, one for himself and one for Barnard. It didn't help that Harding had a mare in the second half.

 

don't panic mr Mannering.

[Andy_Porter]

The way to play these teams is to stretch them - the only way of doing this is the effective use of wingers - preferably ones with the ability to get the by-line and cross.

 

For the first 45 minutes we where pinging crosses in fine and really stretched the game.

 

And just pure width isn't the answer, you have to mix it up. Defending with two banks of four (occasionally more) is always difficult, I think once we get Lallana and Lambert back we should have enough match winners to see us through these sort of games.

[Katalinic]

Too True

 

Terry Paine was the master at that

 

Took the ball to the Goal line , then crossed it BACk acroos goal, still the hardest thing for a defender to defend against

 

And Paine "floated" it over, not bl;asted it across at the speed of light

 

It makes you wonder what Coaches do these days

 

That will never happen when you are playing a left footed player on the right who always has to cut inside. Yesterday highlighted the need for a right winger and cover for Lambert. I liked Antonio but if the £500k reports are true then I should think that there are better players for the money. I also think Waigo would have just given us something different yesterday also which we were crying out for.

[Katalinic]

For the first 45 minutes we where pinging crosses in fine and really stretched the game.

 

And just pure width isn't the answer, you have to mix it up. Defending with two banks of four (occasionally more) is always difficult, I think once we get Lallana and Lambert back we should have enough match winners to see us through these sort of games.

 

I agree we need to mix it up but we also need to get the basics and balance right first. There were some fantastic crosses coming in from the left yesterday but too few times no-one to attack the ball. Out and out wingers with pace will stretch games late on against "park the bus" teams which I think was what delldays post was asking for opinions on.

[Andy_Porter]

I agree we need to mix it up but we also need to get the basics and balance right first. There were some fantastic crosses coming in from the left yesterday but too few times no-one to attack the ball. Out and out wingers with pace will stretch games late on against "park the bus" teams which I think was what delldays post was asking for opinions on.

 

I wasn't very impressed with Puncheon's contribution yesterday, when I saw he was up against Molyneux I thought he would have the beating of him every time. He had a lot of the ball but apart from one shot did nothing with it, Dickson got in some telling crosses from which Hammond should have scored, Puncheon just seemed to slow the play down every time he got on the ball, Lallana when he came on was far more direct which we where crying out for.

[Badger]

The way to play these teams is to stretch them - the only way of doing this is the effective use of wingers - preferably ones with the ability to get the by-line and cross.

 

In the first half yesterday we managed to put several good crosses into the box, but the efforts on the end of them - Hammond - were not on target, or it sailed over the head of shortarses without the ability to jump (Connolly and Barnard).

 

For me the answer to how to break down the 11 players on the ball lies in having someone on the pitch in the middle of the pitch with a bit of inteligence/cunning,and the ability to organise and direct those around him. We just seem to continue to head up the same 'blind alley' time after time.

 

Matt Oakley could be a 'been there,seen that ' experienced player having won two promotions.

 

Unfortunately we have not had such a player since Jimmy Case,and I've no idea where we will find such a maestro,other than suggesting Oakley. We are not alone in this area though,and there seem very few managers at club (or even international level ie Cappello) who are able to put in place a 'Plan B'.

[Katalinic]

I think what this thread shows is that generally seems to agree we need a right winger, back up for Lambert and CM. This would give us the ability and variety to break these teams down.

[dubai_phil]

Looking at the positives with the packed defence issue.

 

We played good neat tidy football, a great deal of accurate and quick passes to feet and moved the ball around well. But failed to do that around the "danger area"

 

When Lallana came on that movement and passing did start to look dangerous, and when he gets match fit he'll be an important part of the solution.

 

Getting around a bus needs pace - not just from wingers but in how the ball is moved around - something Man Ure do very well - almost route one in appearance but with more finesse.

 

I think the basics - moving the ball are there, but that incisive pace is missing.

 

One big difference with "pace" though at this level is the need for a Jonah Lomu type not a SWP type simply due to the way the big lumps get away with so much more.

 

IMHO I think AP sees Oxy-Chamberlain as a Waigo "tricky winger" replacement, but I still think we need a big pacey winger like Antonio.

 

Down side - neat passing ain't gonna be possible on cabbage patch mud baths

[Badger]

I wasn't very impressed with Puncheon's contribution yesterday, ... Dickson got in some telling crosses from which Hammond should have scored, Puncheon just seemed to slow the play down every time he got on the ball, Lallana when he came on was far more direct which we where crying out for.

 

For me Puncheon looked skillful and a threat but time after time he tried to be over elaborate and beat an extra player, losing either the initiative or ball in the process.On one occassion he ran from a good wide position across their defence rather than past the full back,not surprisingly he ran head first into a couple of bodies.

[dubai_phil]

I think what this thread shows is that generally seems to agree we need a right winger, back up for Lambert and CM. This would give us the ability and variety to break these teams down.

 

I think Puncheon can fit that bill. It's just that to me he doesn't seem to be "direct, arrogant" or aggressive enough in the final third. Lallana has got better and better at that but in his early years it led him to mistakes and giving the ball away to easily.

 

BUT I'd like to see an Antonio type on the bench

[Katalinic]

I think Puncheon can fit that bill. It's just that to me he doesn't seem to be "****y" or aggressive enough in the final third. Lallana has got better and better at that but in his early years it led him to mistakes and giving the ball away to easily.

 

BUT I'd like to see an Antonio type on the bench

 

Do you mean Puncheon as an attacking CM Phil or keep him on the right wing?

[dubai_phil]

Do you mean Puncheon as an attacking CM Phil or keep him on the right wing?

 

IF we play 4-2-3-1 (which we WILL need to do at times) then I'd have Lallana centrally behind RL and Pucheon out one side and possibly Connolly or Holmes/Antonio replacement/even Dickson, leaving Morgan Hammond AN Other in CM

 

In 4-4-2 the way Lallana pulls away from his usual wing position is what Pucnheon should also be doing - the movement screws up parked buses

[sadoldgit]

being notoriously slow starters is a nothing reason...means nothing

 

I disagree. Lambert himself said the pre-season was the toughest he has had and apart from his groin strain is in great shape. I have been supporting Saints since 1966 and can count on the fingers of 1 hand the number of times we have started the season strongly. I have yet to watch the match but will watch it this morning, but from all accounts we were pretty much on top for most of the game and were against Reading until the substitutions. I accept that teams like us ought to be able to hit the ground running - and perhaps with Lambert and Lallan aplaying from the off we would have done, but be honest, did you really think we would get anything more than a draw form our first game of the season?

[70's Mike]

In answer to original post there seems to me to be a few ways to break down defences, the problem yesterday was we did not start with any of the answers

 

1) Rely on a constant stream of crosses to a big man who creates havoc, Lambert was missing

2) Rely on close tricky skills around box , Lallana did not start

3) Rely on real direct pace with a player who goes for the heart of the defence and creates havoc, we do not have such a player at present.

 

I believe 1 and 2 are available to SFC but until we find a player to do 3 we will not be complete as a team.

 

Puncheon has pace but rarely uses it relying on skill more than pace

[Katalinic]

IF we play 4-2-3-1 (which we WILL need to do at times) then I'd have Lallana centrally behind RL and Pucheon out one side and possibly Connolly or Holmes/Antonio replacement/even Dickson, leaving Morgan Hammond AN Other in CM

 

In 4-4-2 the way Lallana pulls away from his usual wing position is what Pucnheon should also be doing - the movement screws up parked buses

 

In that 4-2-3-1 formation I agree we could do worse than push Connolly out further on the right.

[dubai_phil]

I disagree. Lambert himself said the pre-season was the toughest he has had and apart from his groin strain is in great shape. I have been supporting Saints since 1966 and can count on the fingers of 1 hand the number of times we have started the season strongly. I have yet to watch the match but will watch it this morning, but from all accounts we were pretty much on top for most of the game and were against Reading until the substitutions. I accept that teams like us ought to be able to hit the ground running - and perhaps with Lambert and Lallan aplaying from the off we would have done, but be honest, did you really think we would get anything more than a draw form our first game of the season?

 

Good post Soggy

 

One other pretty major point that most have forgotten besides RL being out

 

Puncheon & Morgan have also missed pre-season games and were coming back from injury in that respect they did well to play and last yesterday.

[Saint_clark]

We DID break them down though, we got past the defence to create the chances, they just didn't go in.

[sotonjoe]

Great opening post until the line about Plymouth coming to sit behind the ball, which they clearly didn't. Did you actually see the game Delldays or are you just assuming what happened?

[david in sweden]

Too True

 

Terry Paine was the master at that

 

Took the ball to the Goal line , then crossed it BACk acroos goal, still the hardest thing for a defender to defend against

 

And Paine "floated" it over, not bl;asted it across at the speed of light

 

It makes you wonder what Coaches do these days

 

Ah ! ..memories, memories...Terry's crosses often resembled a lob and the defenders were often caught wrong-footed, jumping too soon....whilst Ron had the ability to " hang in the air "..

[alpine_saint]

I think what this thread shows is that generally seems to agree we need a right winger, back up for Lambert and CM. This would give us the ability and variety to break these teams down.

 

Has it really taken this thread for it to be so obvious that everyone can finally agree ?

[simondo]

i was there and thought that was exactly what they did..... and it will be what a lot of teams will do at this level... we do need to find a solution to this and if it means changing tactics or another a couple of new players, then we need to do it. it will like this almost every game when teams fear us in this way...

[sadoldgit]

Has it really taken this thread for it to be so obvious that everyone can finally agree ?

 

Don't you think that the professional people who run the club know this Alpine? Or do you think that they read these forums after a loss to see what they should do. Every club wants players who can break down defences and getting players who are good at it week in week out takes time.

[alpine_saint]

Don't you think that the professional people who run the club know this Alpine?

 

I dont know - why dont you ask them ?

 

There is sufficient weight of opinion on here that thought after the Reading game that we would do Plymouth even if Morgan, Adam, Rickie and Puncheon were missing. So maybe they dont know.

 

That has been shown up for the b*ll*cks it really is.

[hackedoff]

Too slow getting forward, by then the opposition are all back behind the ball letting us play pretty but ineffectual football in front of them.

[sadoldgit]

I dont know - why dont you ask them ?

 

There is sufficient weight of opinion on here that thought after the Reading game that we would do Plymouth even if Morgan, Adam, Rickie and Puncheon were missing. So maybe they dont know.

 

That has been shown up for the b*ll*cks it really is.

 

Or maybe because football is a random game and random things happen no game is a foregone conclusion. I am not going to ask them because they are professionals and know what they need to do, rather then a bunch of cyber jockeys who would have no idea how to run a football club if it was offered to them on a plate.

 

As you are so aggitated about the lack of signings perhaps you would like to ask Mr Cortese what is going on?

[alpine_saint]

Or maybe because football is a random game and random things happen no game is a foregone conclusion. I am not going to ask them because they are professionals and know what they need to do, rather then a bunch of cyber jockeys who would have no idea how to run a football club if it was offered to them on a plate.

 

As you are so aggitated about the lack of signings perhaps you would like to ask Mr Cortese what is going on?

 

It suits your agenda to blame NC rather than that AP isnt doing his job properly, whereas I think either is entirely possible. What I do know for a fact is that the Best Manager in League 1 ™ hasnt got a clue over tactics, or the ability to come up with a Plan B, so we are going to have to rely on sheer overwhelming player quality to get promoted.

 

Not much point discussing it further with you, you are so entrenched in your opinion.

[Smirking_Saint]

The way to play these teams is to stretch them - the only way of doing this is the effective use of wingers - preferably ones with the ability to get the by-line and cross.

 

The delivery was good enough, the two strikers weren't, simple as that.

 

Their movement was crap, which in turn meant that even if we had someone get to the by-line (which we did, we got on the end of and were blocked luckily) the movement to the ball was rarely there, you could see the frustration on Puncheons face when he found space countless times and looked for a pass which wasn't on as LB and DC couldn't find space.

[derry]

Apart from the wide players, we have a problem in centre midfield. Hammond can't pass whilst Schneiderlin can, but his usual tempo is too slow and he often picks the safety square pass. We need a leader/ box to box passer plus schneiderlin coming out of his comfort zone and getting up in support of the front men.

[Smirking_Saint]

Apart from the wide players, we have a problem in centre midfield. Hammond can't pass whilst Schneiderlin can, but his usual tempo is too slow and he often picks the safety square pass. We need a leader/ box to box passer plus schneiderlin coming out of his comfort zone and getting up in support of the front men.

 

I would like to see a more technically gifted Hammond and Schniederlin let off the reins a little. But that will necessitate the use of a decent DM.

[derry]

We don't need anybody just sitting, that's part of the problem. If we are that better than everybody else and teams are parking the bus across their penalty area the back four should be able to cope.

[Freemantle Saint]

It suits your agenda to blame NC rather than that AP isnt doing his job properly, whereas I think either is entirely possible. What I do know for a fact is that the Best Manager in League 1 ™ hasnt got a clue over tactics, or the ability to come up with a Plan B, so we are going to have to rely on sheer overwhelming player quality to get promoted.

 

Not much point discussing it further with you, you are so entrenched in your opinion.

 

One game gone and alpine saint in anti pardew post shocker...could you tell all that from internet feed??

 

Like the wnkers booing at the end complete tossers......

[Red]

As I posted on another thread, we played well BUT assumed RL was on the pitch. We are tactically just inflexible - if things go well, we are awesome, if they don't we can't seem to change it and try something different.

 

Not having a dig at AP, but surely we should be able to change things? As an example, we had some many corners in the first half that were totally wasted - hoofed to the far post / side, and no one there to pick up the loose ball (us or opposition) - why not have someone trying to anticipate? Much better than KD coming for up for the last ditch corner. I spotted this within the first 5 mins, so what the feck are our management doing? Granted after half time it was much better, but then we went asleep at the back?? We have a great squad (even without RL and AL), I feel we just lack confidence and imagination, and most importantly adaptability - for example, the ref was ok, but like most in L1 let a lot of things go - Plymouth realised this and got stuck in, we just moaned. Adapt to the situation and exploit it - or we will be in this league for some time yet!

[saint1977]

Apart from the wide players, we have a problem in centre midfield. Hammond can't pass whilst Schneiderlin can, but his usual tempo is too slow and he often picks the safety square pass. We need a leader/ box to box passer plus schneiderlin coming out of his comfort zone and getting up in support of the front men.

 

I totally agree with this Derry, Hammond is fine for a squad player but we need a CM with more of an engine and more pace to get box-to-box alongside Morgan. Wotton being on the bench is particularly scary. It inhibits our lively forward players such as Puncheon, Barnard and when fully fit again, Lallana. Lallana is such a key player, God knows how we'll break teams down if he or Lambert are out for any length of time. That different option of pace that Waigo and Antonio gave us last season would have helped on Saturday and it is essential that we bring in a player like that before MK, whether they are on Pardew's A or B list.

 

Having said that, if Hammond has stuck away one of those first hlaf chances, which he should have done, the game would have opened up. I like Hammond as a player but I've never been convinced that he and Morgan are the right long-term CM pairing. We need a CM that drives at teams and makes angles and room for the more creative players to undo teams.