Attendance percentages.

[Neil]

One point from Wilde's Manifesto (don't laugh!) was that there are numerous different combinations of "fans multiplied by ticket price" variables which produce the same gate income, but obviously the one with the highest crowd is best (not rocket science maybe).

Would be interesting to hear Wilde's views on this, as I don't imagine we're selling many pies / burgers / shirts etc on 15k gates. Although maybe we are as it's a whole lot easier to get to the bar, and the output is sluggish at the best of times...

Oh, and the atmosphere is a bit ****e, although not at the Norwich game.

[Mole]

I can't say I would be chuffed if my reward for paying up front for years was to pay more than I could by keeping my cash for longer and buying each week.

 

I totally understand this point of view. The club are in a no-win situation on this one.

 

Next season the ST up-take is going to plummet further though.

 

I'm afraid the club is ****ed and the sooner we go into administration the better. It's going to happen so we might as well get used to it and the sooner it happens the sooner we can get it over with and come out the other side. The decline caused might take a decade or more to recover from, but nothing can stop it imo so we might as well get it on.

[Big Ron fan]

Proves what a massive error Lowe made in returning to control the club. The fans simply have no confidence in his policies. We know that even if the youngsters do well, they are going to be sold off. Disilusioned supporters have turned away in droves. The last match of last season was the highest attendance in the Championship. Had he allowed Pearson to rebuild the team as a blend of youth and experience we would have maintained the attendances of last season and massively improved our income from gates - compared to now.

 

 

Lowe out!

 

My thoughts as well. Getting rid of a manager who was popular with the majority of the fans and replacing him with yet another (largely unknown) "yes man" has knocked a good few thousand off the gate I reckon.

[captainchris]

I can't say I would be chuffed if my reward for paying up front for years was to pay more than I could by keeping my cash for longer and buying each week.

 

I think you missed the point Nick which is to reduce the price to everyone..... No one is suggesting taking away the right to buy a season ticket - not at all but according to the club, right now it is strangling us from reacting to market forces because season tickets were overpriced in the first place probably.

 

However it does beggar the question why people buy season tickets when the ground is half full ? The thing is the club could even consider a business plane to fill the ground and refund some money to season ticket holders or discount the overpayment on a season ticket next year ...........What is required is bright innovative ideas to fullfill the very important over riding need to fill the ground............ There seems to be no ideas coming from the club at all !!!!! We know about the players, the team building, the lack of money, the patience etc etc etc but lets see positive initiatives to bring people in. Remember initiatives to increase the crowd size only need to break even, the benefit is in the team confidence and customer enjoyment which is - like any business perpetual. Personally I couldn't believe how negative the thinking was to shut the corners of the ground. This sends out entirely the wrong message i.e that the business is in decline it also displaces loyal customers but address the root cause/problem more punters needed!

[AwaySaint1]

Anyone know what the break even point is regards attendances.

 

10,000 - 12,000 ?

[Totton Red]

I think you missed the point Nick which is to reduce the price to everyone..... No one is suggesting taking away the right to buy a season ticket - not at all but according to the club, right now it is strangling us from reacting to market forces because season tickets were overpriced in the first place probably.

 

However it does beggar the question why people buy season tickets when the ground is half full ? The thing is the club could even consider a business plane to fill the ground and refund some money to season ticket holders or discount the overpayment on a season ticket next year ...........What is required is bright innovative ideas to fullfill the very important over riding need to fill the ground............ There seems to be no ideas coming from the club at all !!!!! We know about the players, the team building, the lack of money, the patience etc etc etc but lets see positive initiatives to bring people in. Remember initiatives to increase the crowd size only need to break even, the benefit is in the team confidence and customer enjoyment which is - like any business perpetual. Personally I couldn't believe how negative the thinking was to shut the corners of the ground. This sends out entirely the wrong message i.e that the business is in decline it also displaces loyal customers but address the root cause/problem more punters needed!

 

Couldn't agree more. Myself, son and six of his teenage friends have not watched more than one game this season - thats from being season ticket holders in the Itchen corner last season. Going to a game is about habit, destroy that and you have lost those fans for the future!

[saintwarwick]

I think you missed the point Nick which is to reduce the price to everyone..... No one is suggesting taking away the right to buy a season ticket - not at all but according to the club, right now it is strangling us from reacting to market forces because season tickets were overpriced in the first place probably.

 

However it does beggar the question why people buy season tickets when the ground is half full ? The thing is the club could even consider a business plane to fill the ground and refund some money to season ticket holders or discount the overpayment on a season ticket next year ...........What is required is bright innovative ideas to fullfill the very important over riding need to fill the ground............ There seems to be no ideas coming from the club at all !!!!! We know about the players, the team building, the lack of money, the patience etc etc etc but lets see positive initiatives to bring people in. Remember initiatives to increase the crowd size only need to break even, the benefit is in the team confidence and customer enjoyment which is - like any business perpetual. Personally I couldn't believe how negative the thinking was to shut the corners of the ground. This sends out entirely the wrong message i.e that the business is in decline it also displaces loyal customers but address the root cause/problem more punters needed!

 

You make some good points but the idea for some of us to buy a season ticket is to lower the price as loyalty for paying up front, this allowing the club to plan the next season based on sold ticket sales. A game costs me about £16.00 compared to the £26.00 for matchday ticket sales. I agree we need to look at how we can fill the ground but I think a lot of fans have become disillusioned with the footy on offer at the moment. That said we should look at lowering the price to entice some fans back, £16.00-£18.00 seems a fair price to me. Season ticket holders can be encouraged to bring mates, family etc by having reduced prices like a tenner for every one they can get to attend. Whatever happens something needs to be done to improve attendances other than improved football and results.

[trousers]

No one is suggesting taking away the right to buy a season ticket - not at all but according to the club, right now it is strangling us from reacting to market forces

 

Indeed. It's known in the trade as "cutting off nose to spite face".

 

It would be somewhat ironic if the dogmatic view of some season ticket holders brought the club down because the club was 'too scared' to upset them in these rapidly changing and difficult financial times.

 

Surely season ticket holders should be encouraging the club to react to the market and reduce 'pay-as-you-go' prices to protect their investment? To do otherwise is illogical.

Edited 14 October, 2008 by trousers

[eelpie]

I didn't buy a season ticket this year, simply because I now work most Tuesday evenings. Too many matches are on Tuesday evenings. The club needs to factor this into their pricing system.

[Rebel]

Having spoken to Luker about it I got the distinct impression they'd not even looked at the possibility of reducing ticket prices to increase crowd numbers/support

 

or ways of increasing revenue from more people having a better match day expoerience

[trousers]

Having spoken to Luker about it I got the distinct impression they'd not even looked at the possibility of reducing ticket prices to increase crowd numbers/support

 

or ways of increasing revenue from more people having a better match day expoerience

 

[Oz]

lowe out and a decent manager, we would be back into the 80/90&

 

you just got to accept it, soccer and sfc are in terminal decline!

[up and away]

I think it's worth dropping ticket prices to, say £18 / £19, as £20+ seems excessive all things considered at the moment.

 

I don't think Luker can keep hiding behind ST holder-related arguments when the crowds are plummeting as they currently are, yes it's stating the bleeding obvious that wins would help but it's now time for action.

 

Totally dumb idea. I have looked at the response Luker has given over ticket prices and cannot fault the logic. You seem to believe that reducing the ticet prices will suddenly fill the ground, it just does not happen like that. Reducing the ticket price by £6 from £24 to £18 will not have a significant overall effect for a lot of fans. The ticket price is just part of the costs for many fans, sometimes not even the biggest outlay and I don't see £6 as a do or die in going to watch Saints. We have already seen with the 15% reduction in season ticket prices that this has resulted in a drop in revenue greater than the original figure. Just look at any club in the UK and give the example where your theory has worked, without results biasing the attendances?

 

But David Luker, head of supporter services at Saints, said cutting prices would not be popular with existing season ticket holders. And even if prices were cut, there was no guarantee enough extra fans would turn up to make it financially viable.

“Reducing ticket prices doesn’t actually mean that you would generate more sales,” said Luker. “Added to this, given our well documented financial situation we need to generate extra revenue.

“The average adult ticket price is £24. By reducing this to £18 we would have to sell an additional 33 per cent of tickets to make the bottom line the same. “As there is no guarantee that we could actually increase sales enough to generate extra revenue, this would be a huge gamble for the club at the present time “Added to this, by reducing the price this much we effectively would remove the price benefit of the season ticket holders.

[Window Cleaner]

Having spoken to Luker about it I got the distinct impression they'd not even looked at the possibility of reducing ticket prices to increase crowd numbers/support

 

or ways of increasing revenue from more people having a better match day expoerience

 

We are cutting costs not ticket prices, end of.

I'll be in a minority of one here as per usual but for me there are already far far too many concessions.Want cheap football? get a season ticket.

[Scummer]

One thing I would dispute regarding David Luker's numbers, is the assumption that revenue only consists of the ticket price. Is he seriously saying that getting more people at matches does not lead to increased food, drink, and megastore sales? I'm sure they must have done the research, and I guess the sums didn't add up, but he's portraying things in too simplistic a manner.

[Pongo]

Totally dumb idea. I have looked at the response Luker has given over ticket prices and cannot fault the logic. You seem to believe that reducing the ticet prices will suddenly fill the ground, it just does not happen like that. Reducing the ticket price by £6 from £24 to £18 will not have a significant overall effect for a lot of fans. The ticket price is just part of the costs for many fans, sometimes not even the biggest outlay and I don't see £6 as a do or die in going to watch Saints. We have already seen with the 15% reduction in season ticket prices that this has resulted in a drop in revenue greater than the original figure. Just look at any club in the UK and give the example where your theory has worked, without results biasing the attendances?

 

But David Luker, head of supporter services at Saints, said cutting prices would not be popular with existing season ticket holders. And even if prices were cut, there was no guarantee enough extra fans would turn up to make it financially viable.

“Reducing ticket prices doesn’t actually mean that you would generate more sales,” said Luker. “Added to this, given our well documented financial situation we need to generate extra revenue.

“The average adult ticket price is £24. By reducing this to £18 we would have to sell an additional 33 per cent of tickets to make the bottom line the same. “As there is no guarantee that we could actually increase sales enough to generate extra revenue, this would be a huge gamble for the club at the present time “Added to this, by reducing the price this much we effectively would remove the price benefit of the season ticket holders.

 

I think you're right U and A.

 

As far as i'm concerned the country has been going down hill for some time now with the tax burden always going up in %age terms and food and fuel prices sky rocketing for over 12 months. We might only just be officially in recession, but in reality the recession for families accross Britian has been going on for some time.

 

You are right when you state it's not just the ticket price that affects attendance. In fact speaking personally the ticket price only accounts for 20-30% of the day out. Beer, fags, train ticket/petrol, a few quid for the fruitie, a bet at half time, a burger, a pie, dropping £20 out your pocket etc etc are all part of the overall cost of supporting the club.

 

Football is a luxury in the good times. Not just the economically good times, but when the team is winning. At present the club is hit with a double whammy of reduced customer spending power and an inferior product to sell.

 

Reducing prices will make no differece at all IMO.

[Topcat]

We have a Club led by people that most supporters detest. We then have people surprised that we have the worst attendance % in the CCC. These people would be surprised to learn that the Pope is a Catholic.

 

Rupert Lowe = 5,000 fewer supporters a game. A simple equation that he and the rest of the share holding idiots that support him need to learn fast.

[saint1977]

One thing I would dispute regarding David Luker's numbers, is the assumption that revenue only consists of the ticket price. Is he seriously saying that getting more people at matches does not lead to increased food, drink, and megastore sales? I'm sure they must have done the research, and I guess the sums didn't add up, but he's portraying things in too simplistic a manner.

 

Totally agree and SFC have made a good mark-up traditionally on non-football items on matchdays. We're in mid-October and soon people will be buying XMAS presents which could bring extra revenue if people are at SMS on a Saturday. I think Dubai Phil hit the nail on the head a few weeks ago, the club have given up on gate revenue and it's all about matching lower overheads to the bank's targets. I think that even with the global financial crisis, the club is potentially very attractive - modern stadium, good fanbase if slightly up and down, Staplewood and a good brand that needs modest investment - but it's a question as ever of how they untangle the web of share proxies, there's too many people to deal with.

[Sundance Beast]

That being the case then surely Lowe should resign as he's a liability.

 

No, as a football club our biggest liability is our fickle, plastic and moaning fans. There is I believe a hardcore of fans made up of S/T holders, members and regular ticket buyers who would support the club no matter what is happening on and off the pitch. Its their passion and supporting the club is more like a family duty than simply expecting to be entertained.

 

There are too many fans who hide behind excuses like boardroom changes, bad results, credit crunch, poor entertainment value when bottom line they are simply not as committed supporters as the 10k or so I refer to above. They are not supporters just fcikle fans who want to be 'entertained' so perhaps the club should provide some Pearl and Dean adverts and a bucket of pop-corn to aid your viewing pleasure.

 

I suspect if most fans added up the cost of their alternative activities instead of going to home games, the amount is at least equal to that of going to a game and without that sense of belonging and supporting a cause you are supposed to feel passionate about. We have one of the best stadiums in the country and if you want to keep it and the club going, then you need to stop looking for excuses and simply get down there and support them FFS!!

 

If you want to be 'entertained' stop masquerading as a football fan let alone a Saints fan as on balance most games fail to live up to expectations no matter what level they are played at. It is a results business but whatever happens that 10k will still go as it's in there blood and they have my unstinting respect. What the rest can't grasp is that putting the money in the tills by paying the gate prices will have a direct impact on results through the 12th man crowd element and making some revenue available for investment.

 

Don't hide behind your pathetic excuses when you chose to skip on the value of a season ticket and where applicable some excellent renewal deals. We have a ground to be proud of and not some shed like the Dell so hence the cost. Still keep up your stay away policy and we'll be ground sharing at Fratton Park and you can have your entrance price and associated ambience.

[Chez]

who cares about percentages of seats taken? That figure doesn't take into account size of stadium or price of ticket. If we carged £2.50 and had a 10k stadium it would be 99.9% full. Instead we have 32,500 seats and £26 tickets.

[Greenridge]

 

 

... It is a results business

 

 

Indeed it is and when the results return in a consistant manner then so will many of the missing supporters. You cannot force people to part with their money if they don't feel they are getting value for their pound and name-calling won't make any difference either other than to alienate them further. SFC is not unique in that the numbers have dwindled as the team dropped out of the premiership and performances have deteriorated. It's a fact of life, like it or not.

 

Where SFC is unique is the hugely fractured fanbase due to the governing personel however I would be very surprised if more than 3, perhaps 4,000 are boycotting due to Lowe's incumbence.

[saintwarwick]

We have a Club led by people that most supporters detest. We then have people surprised that we have the worst attendance % in the CCC. These people would be surprised to learn that the Pope is a Catholic.

 

Rupert Lowe = 5,000 fewer supporters a game. A simple equation that he and the rest of the share holding idiots that support him need to learn fast.

 

Absolute codswollop, if Lowe left today you can guarantee their will not be an extra 5,000 fans at SMS on Saturday. The only way that will increase is by winning a few games and moving into the playoffs. As for using the percentage figure to show we have the worst attendance in the CCC try using the average figure where we are currently 14th, this will be a better figure to work on as there are so many different size stadiums in the CCC and with ours being one of the biggest it is no surprise we will be lower in the percentage stakes.

[Chez]

I didn't buy a season ticket this year, simply because I now work most Tuesday evenings. Too many matches are on Tuesday evenings. The club needs to factor this into their pricing system.

 

Not sure how they would do this. Perhaps weekend ST and midweek season ticket could be added as an option next season? Both could be slightly higher per game than a standard ST, but of course lower than individual game prices.

 

By the way you can miss 8 home games when you buy a season ticket and still be better off than buying individually. There are 5 Tuesday games.

[aintforever]

Percentage attendance figures mean precisely naff all.

 

Just to illustrate this fact to the mathematically retarded, Barcelona's is 57.9%.

[Topcat]

Absolute codswollop, if Lowe left today you can guarantee their will not be an extra 5,000 fans at SMS on Saturday. The only way that will increase is by winning a few games and moving into the playoffs. As for using the percentage figure to show we have the worst attendance in the CCC try using the average figure where we are currently 14th, this will be a better figure to work on as there are so many different size stadiums in the CCC and with ours being one of the biggest it is no surprise we will be lower in the percentage stakes.

Average this season = 15,757

Average last season = 21,253

 

Difference = 5,496 fewer supporters per match.

 

Would they all suddenly comeback? Not straight away, but given Leadership that can be trusted by the supporters, most of these missing 5,000 would.

 

The fact is that Lowe's backers knew he would hurt attendances. Yet they clearly thought that it would not be as much as 5,000. Over a season that 5,000 = £3m.

[Window Cleaner]

Over a season that 5,000 = £3m.

 

 

**Stars*** required to entice the missing 5000= +6 million per season.

 

Viafara+Davies.+Rasiak+Saganowski+Vignal+Idiakiez+Lundekvam+Safri+Wright+Powell+

Makin+Hammill+Licka+Ostlund+Burley+Dodd+Gorman =120K/semaine =6.24 million/season

[Topcat]

**Stars*** required to entice the missing 5000= +6 million per season.

 

Viafara+Davies.+Rasiak+Saganowski+Vignal+Idiakiez+Lundekvam+Safri+Wright+Powell+

Makin+Hammill+Licka+Ostlund+Burley+Dodd+Gorman =120K/semaine =6.24 million/season

 

Stars?+Burley+Dodd+Gorman Makin, Lundekvam, Wright+Powell+Idiakiez+ no way...

[West End Saint]

As a ST holder for a number of years it wouldnt bother me that much if the club discounted tickett prices to intice people back to St Marys may be they could offer a cup game free of charge to ST holders or some sort of incentive.

[Window Cleaner]

Stars?+Burley+Dodd+Gorman Makin, Lundekvam, Wright+Powell+Idiakiez+ no way...

 

PS we still have Rasiak

 

Lundekvam (believe it or not) took over 15 k a week from the clubs coffers,week in,week out, 1200 people had to turn up just to pay the salary of a non-starter.

Burley was taking about 9 K a week apparently.

Not stars but huge drains on the clubs finances.

Rasiak isn't our problem this season. Think he's out of contract after that.

What you have to remember is that for every home game a player gets 2 week's pay (or more)

Edited 14 October, 2008 by Window Cleaner

[Wilko]

Who gives a rats? It's £23 for 2 hours entertainment in a lifeless bowl with the corners closed. Expensive.

[saintrich]

Who gives a rats? It's £23 for 2 hours entertainment in a lifeless bowl with the corners closed. Expensive.

 

 

 

.

[buctootim]

Who gives a rats? It's £23 for 2 hours entertainment in a lifeless bowl with the corners closed. Expensive.

 

If I was running the club, attendances were down and had money in the bank I'd experiment with free tickets for schools and 'bring a friend for a fiver' kind of promotions. But with the finances so close to the edge I imagine they think its too risky to try.

[DT]

I'd try and improve the football.

[Scummer]

Percentage attendance figures mean precisely naff all.

 

Just to illustrate this fact to the mathematically retarded, Barcelona's is 57.9%.

 

I'm pretty sure that Barcelona fiddle their attendance figures somehow. I went to a game there a couple of years ago and it was pretty much full, but the official attendance was about 30k below capacity.

[Wilko]

I'd try and improve the football.

 

I've no problem with the football at the moment. We tend to play good stuff. I just can't justify going to watch us very often now I'm in the real world, paying my own bills and earning a wage.

[Chez]

But membership is only one step down from being a supa dupa fan with a season ticket.

 

why make a jibe at ST holders?

[Chez]

I'm pretty sure that Barcelona fiddle their attendance figures somehow. I went to a game there a couple of years ago and it was pretty much full, but the official attendance was about 30k below capacity.

 

in contrast I went a few seasons back, it rained just before the match and the stadium was empty.

[saintwarwick]

Average this season = 15,757

Average last season = 21,253

 

Difference = 5,496 fewer supporters per match.

 

Would they all suddenly comeback? Not straight away, but given Leadership that can be trusted by the supporters, most of these missing 5,000 would.

 

The fact is that Lowe's backers knew he would hurt attendances. Yet they clearly thought that it would not be as much as 5,000. Over a season that 5,000 = £3m.

 

If Lowe and Wilde left tomorrow the missing 5,000 will not be back, the only way they will come back is if we improve the football and results and move into the top six, maintain that position and even challenge for a top two place. This is highly unlikely due to us being skint and relying on young cheap players, the same situation we will still be in even if Crouch or AN Other should be in charge and without the necessary funds to change otherwise. Results = success = increase in attendances.

[brmbrm]

why make a jibe at ST holders?

 

I think you might find that some of the ST holders/posters on here are pompous and arrogant and make jibes at people who aren't ST holders......

[Totton Red]

If Lowe and Wilde left tomorrow the missing 5,000 will not be back, the only way they will come back is if we improve the football and results and move into the top six, maintain that position and even challenge for a top two place. This is highly unlikely due to us being skint and relying on young cheap players, the same situation we will still be in even if Crouch or AN Other should be in charge and without the necessary funds to change otherwise. Results = success = increase in attendances.

 

Rather an immature response! Are we not comparing the attendances with last season when we finished in the bottom five?

[saintwarwick]

Rather an immature response! Are we not comparing the attendances with last season when we finished in the bottom five?

 

I am trying to work out how that is an immature response so please enlighten me. As for attendances we have been in decline every season since relegation and nothing will change until we improve our performances on the pitch. Don't you think that because we finished in the bottom five last season this has had an overall effect on this seasons attendances because I certainly do. The more you struggle and fall the more fans you will lose.

[broncoboy]

The fans stay away because there has been season after season of misery and decline.

 

We all know our best players will be sold at Xmas, we have never kept anyone worth a damn in all the years I have watched Southampton except MLT.

 

The gates will fall beow 12k and the 10k in February Even ST holders are staying away.

 

The arriving recession will crucify this club.

 

Never mind we still have the great helmsmans "Total Football Revolution"

[MrSoft]

No, as a football club our biggest liability is our fickle, plastic and moaning fans. There is I believe a hardcore of fans made up of S/T holders, members and regular ticket buyers who would support the club no matter what is happening on and off the pitch. Its their passion and supporting the club is more like a family duty than simply expecting to be entertained.

 

There are too many fans who hide behind excuses like boardroom changes, bad results, credit crunch, poor entertainment value when bottom line they are simply not as committed supporters as the 10k or so I refer to above. They are not supporters just fcikle fans who want to be 'entertained' so perhaps the club should provide some Pearl and Dean adverts and a bucket of pop-corn to aid your viewing pleasure.

 

.....

 

 

haha, you are funny

 

1. A business where the customers are a 'liablilty'?. Thats exactly the type of thinking from a current director that has got SFC into this situation. And exactly the type of thinking that gives us a very uncertain future.

 

2. Anyone who thinks that the fans have some sort of obligation to attend matches is an idiot. I'm a ST holder and have been for longer than I care to remember. The reason I get a ST is because I actually enjoy watching a game on a Saturday afternoon. The day I stop enjoying it is the day I will stop renewing. It is a game, it is for entertainment, nothing more. For years the business has operated on the incorrect assumption that all fans feel obliged to watch their team no matter what. The fans (customers) are currently sending a crystal clear message to the board, the current directors don't appear to be listening though and it will be their (and SFCs) downfall.

 

3. The excuse that reducing matchday ticket prices is not possible because would upset current ST holders is just plain idiotic. If that is a genuine concern then you offer even better deals for the current season ticket holders. ie reduce match day tickets down to £15 for some matches, on those days ST holders can also buy additional tickets for a fiver or something. It's not rocket science.

 

4. It was all so inevitable from the day a popular manager was removed by an unpopular director and replaced with an unknown bloke from the dutch lower leagues.

 

5. The current board seem to be operating under the assumption that the only answer to diminishing product sales is to reduce costs to try to keep things ticking over. That is less than half of the solution. If you are struggling to sell a product then you need to improve that product or reduce its cost. Simple.