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Question for the Positive-Thinkers after the Walsall result


alpine_saint

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You've spoken about the "bad luck" and the "chances created" against Walsall, and how we deserved to win and were "mugged".

 

Dont Bournemouth actually deserve second place, and wouldnt we be "mugging" them if we were to snatch it from them in the last couple of weeks of the season, seeing as they have been there for months ?

 

I think there is some double-standards in your thinking.

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You've spoken about the "bad luck" and the "chances created" against Walsall, and how we deserved to win and were "mugged".

 

Dont Bournemouth actually deserve second place, and wouldnt we be "mugging" them if we were to snatch it from them in the last couple of weeks of the season, seeing as they have been there for months ?

 

I think there is some double-standards in your thinking.

 

Bournemouth deserve their second place at the moment. They are a better TEAM.

 

We on the other hand possess far better footballers. For a more detailed explanation on why better footballers don't perform as a team may I suggest reading The Complete History of England in Major Tournaments since 1966, or to keep it in a psychological vein, email Andrew Flower or Andrew Strauss at ecb.co.uk.

 

Trust me, if you can find the reason and share it with us, this forum's members could become the richest people on the planet taking that knowledge into Sport Business & Government.

 

A short Answer Alps - We are too good for this League, ergo we don't have the right Mental Attitude for this League ergo we screw up. Solution - blame AP for signing very good players and NC for not selling them all and recreating a Scunny in January.

 

ie it is as it is until May 31st, we've GOT to find a way to generate a siege mentality, we are FAR too "Slick and Professional"

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You've spoken about the "bad luck" and the "chances created" against Walsall, and how we deserved to win and were "mugged".

 

Dont Bournemouth actually deserve second place, and wouldnt we be "mugging" them if we were to snatch it from them in the last couple of weeks of the season, seeing as they have been there for months ?

 

I think there is some double-standards in your thinking.

Ermmmm I don't think anyone is suggesting Walsall "mugged" us due to being lower in the league, moreso because we played better than them.

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You've spoken about the "bad luck" and the "chances created" against Walsall, and how we deserved to win and were "mugged".

 

Dont Bournemouth actually deserve second place, and wouldnt we be "mugging" them if we were to snatch it from them in the last couple of weeks of the season, seeing as they have been there for months ?

 

I think there is some double-standards in your thinking.

 

This is illogical in the extreme, even for you Apls.

 

There is no "deserving" of second place and being there for most of the season counts for nothing. There is a quaint tradition that the two teams with the greatest number of points after ALL the games have been played are promoted.

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You've spoken about the "bad luck" and the "chances created" against Walsall, and how we deserved to win and were "mugged".

 

Dont Bournemouth actually deserve second place, and wouldnt we be "mugging" them if we were to snatch it from them in the last couple of weeks of the season, seeing as they have been there for months ?

 

I think there is some double-standards in your thinking.

 

To be able to answer your question I'd need some information about the nature of bournemouth's wins and losses. If you could provide a breakdown of their results indicating which scorelines matched the balance of play and which went against the balance of play I'll then be able to supply an answer.

 

Cheers

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You've spoken about the "bad luck" and the "chances created" against Walsall, and how we deserved to win and were "mugged".

 

Dont Bournemouth actually deserve second place, and wouldnt we be "mugging" them if we were to snatch it from them in the last couple of weeks of the season, seeing as they have been there for months ?

 

I think there is some double-standards in your thinking.

 

Anyone that says we were mugged tuesday is an idiot. WE lost because of yet another defensive error and faliure to put away one or two of 20 odd attempts at goal. Then when it wasn't working for us the usual resort to panicing and hopeful long balls. All this against a team that have lost more games at home than any other in this division.

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You've spoken about the "bad luck" and the "chances created" against Walsall, and how we deserved to win and were "mugged".

 

Dont Bournemouth actually deserve second place, and wouldnt we be "mugging" them if we were to snatch it from them in the last couple of weeks of the season, seeing as they have been there for months ?

 

I think there is some double-standards in your thinking.

 

Well no, because the only time a table is truly correct is after all 46 games when everybody has played the same fixtures.

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This is illogical in the extreme, even for you Apls.

 

There is no "deserving" of second place and being there for most of the season counts for nothing. There is a quaint tradition that the two teams with the greatest number of points after ALL the games have been played are promoted.

 

I dont think it is illogical at all.

Whichever team produces the goods over the season will get second place. Currently that is Bournemouth.

Whichever team produced the goods over the game, won the game. That was Walsall.

 

The point of my OP is that "bad luck", "mugging" and "deserving" are all emotive words of absolutely no relevancy. Who wins (and who gets promoted) is all about putting that white round thing between the two upright white things, and Walsall did it and Bournemouth are doing it. That is why us "wrist slitters" dont give a flying f**k about the amount of "chances created".

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Anyone that says we were mugged tuesday is an idiot. WE lost because of yet another defensive error and faliure to put away one or two of 20 odd attempts at goal. Then when it wasn't working for us the usual resort to panicing and hopeful long balls. All this against a team that have lost more games at home than any other in this division.

 

For once, the fat-boy is in complete agreement with you.

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Um... Whoever is second in the league table when the season ends deserves second place.

 

Fine by me.

 

Then let's stop trying to dismiss Walsall's victory against us as a freak result and try to understand what this really means about the situation at SFC.

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I try to stay a positive thinker but Tuesday knocked the stuffing out of me I felt it was a very important gam & had we won I would have confidence in us getting 2nd & going up.

 

I now think play offs as long as we pull our socks up we havent played really well since Oldham away even Saturday whilst I am not knocking a 4 1 win for long periods in that game we didnt play well.

 

All season I have been thinking soon we are going to catch fire and play well week in week out & for whatever reason it hasnt happened Brighton & Bournemouth have managed that I guess there is still time left & we might go on a great run to the end of the season. I really hope so I am not 1 of those calling for change I want stability & only promotion will provide that.

 

I am going to stay positive & believe will will win the play offs at O/T which would be great but I would love to have confidence that when Saints run out you know you are going to get a good performance I havent got that feeling at the moment & havent had it for any length of time all season

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Walsall's victory against us as a freak result and try to understand what this really means about the situation at SFC

 

I am a very PT, and if 9/10 on that performancewe would beat Walsall then yes its a freak result. Freak being the operative word here, as I cannot for one moment see any connection between tuesday evening and 'the situation at SFC' whatever that may be!!?? Freak. Please enlighten us what exactly that 'situation' is. Basically we are 5th with 15 games left to play, simple.

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Walsall's victory against us as a freak result and try to understand what this really means about the situation at SFC

 

I am a very PT, and if 9/10 on that performancewe would beat Walsall then yes its a freak result. Freak being the operative word here, as I cannot for one moment see any connection between tuesday evening and 'the situation at SFC' whatever that may be!!?? Freak. Please enlighten us what exactly that 'situation' is. Basically we are 5th with 15 games left to play, simple.

 

The fact that the team are playing exceptionally badly.

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Odd thread.

 

As has been said, whoever finishes 2nd after 46 games deserves it - because over 46 games they have accumulated enough points to do so.

 

So to put it simply for certain people - if we finish 2nd now and Bournemouth don't, it's because we've deserved it and have accumulated more points than them over the course of the season.

 

But hey, what do I know.

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Dont Bournemouth actually deserve second place, and wouldnt we be "mugging" them if we were to snatch it from them in the last couple of weeks of the season, seeing as they have been there for months ?

 

IF we finish above them I won't see it as "mugging" them.

 

From memory when they won at Walsall a few weeks ago I think Walsall hit the woodwork 3 times, against us I don't think they had 3 serious attempts at goal.

 

The Rotten Fruit are on a good run at the moment, since 28 Dec it is 8-4-1 but if you look at those games 6 of the 8 wins were against teams in the bottom 5 (Home and Away wins against Plymouth, Swindon etc). IMO they have an unbalanced fixture list.

 

If you look at the other games (against non bottom 5 teams) their results are are 2-4-1 (10 points from 21 games) which if they continue to the end of the season we should be able to beat.

Remember we have just had some tricky away fixtures, e.g. Exeter away, PBoro away, Hartlepool away. The Rotten Fruit still have to go to all those grounds, i.e. when they go to Exeter we play Yeovil at home, when they go to PBoro we play MKDons at home.

 

IMO there is a long way to go, with lots of ups and downs.

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You really do have a negative aspect regarding our club. Simple Alps, would you say that Ireland are a better cricket team than England?

 

 

They won on the night, end of, but they are not a better team than us on paper.

 

Which goes to show that paper's most useful role is wiping your arse....

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You've spoken about the "bad luck" and the "chances created" against Walsall, and how we deserved to win and were "mugged".

 

Dont Bournemouth actually deserve second place, and wouldnt we be "mugging" them if we were to snatch it from them in the last couple of weeks of the season, seeing as they have been there for months ?

 

I think there is some double-standards in your thinking.

 

As we have beaten them twice already this season and if we dont lose to them this month surely we have proved we are better than them

 

But the season is 46 games long and the top two teams always get promoted so I dont really understand your point.

 

Are you suggesting that Man U as well should win the Premier League because they were unbeaten for such a long time.

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Let just spell it out to people again. We have dropped 14 points in 10 games against the bottom 7, teams fighting relegation. P10, W5, D1, L4. We have lost nearly half of our games against teams in the bottom four and in our defeats failed to score in any of the games. Now whilst i dont expect us to win all of them, although we should, i'd expect a team challenging for the title to only lose one, or at worst two. This record cant be just conicidence, this is not because of crap pitches, bad luck, poor referees or any other excuse people might want to make. THat is the mark of a team that lacks bottle for a fight and cant raise it's game when it needs to and may well be the mark of a manager that cant motivate the team when it needs to. One simple question, if the players cant hack the pressure of having to win a game away at the worst home side in L1, how are they going to cope with a play off semi final or final?

And i was at Walsall on tuesday and anyone that says we played "brilliantly" is seriously deluded. Yes we created 5 decent chances in the first half but their keepers saves form them were at best routine, he hardly did anything spectacular to keep them out. Second half all of our chances came from scrambled crosses, i dont remember us working one clear cut chance. This "it was one of those nights" "we lost a game it happens" is wearing thin now. How many more "it was one of those nights" are we going to have? Teams that win things have them here and there but 40% (50% of the time if you include drawing at Yeovil) of the time against relegation strugglers is simply not a case of "one of those nights".

Edited by Turkish
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We are not playing exceptionally badly. Whilst I accept that some of the performances have been below par, and do not match expectations, given the squad that we have, to say this is completely wrong.

That's what gets me with him, I'm not moaning at him for not going to games or saying I'm a better fan than him - but I can't see how someone can make such a strong statement when they don't listen or watch us play.

 

We've not been on top top form recently, but I don't think the world is falling apart as some would like to think.

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IF we finish above them I won't see it as "mugging" them.

 

From memory when they won at Walsall a few weeks ago I think Walsall hit the woodwork 3 times, against us I don't think they had 3 serious attempts at goal.

 

The Rotten Fruit are on a good run at the moment, since 28 Dec it is 8-4-1 but if you look at those games 6 of the 8 wins were against teams in the bottom 5 (Home and Away wins against Plymouth, Swindon etc). IMO they have an unbalanced fixture list.

 

If you look at the other games (against non bottom 5 teams) their results are are 2-4-1 (10 points from 21 games) which if they continue to the end of the season we should be able to beat.

Remember we have just had some tricky away fixtures, e.g. Exeter away, PBoro away, Hartlepool away. The Rotten Fruit still have to go to all those grounds, i.e. when they go to Exeter we play Yeovil at home, when they go to PBoro we play MKDons at home.

 

IMO there is a long way to go, with lots of ups and downs.

 

Whereas we have P10 W4 D1 L5 against the bottom 7. I think that speaks for itself and is not acceptable.

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The fact that the team are playing exceptionally badly.

 

You can't have it all ways Alps old chaps, it's either all about results or performance does matter... so you can't say 'we played well but lost doesn't cut it' then when we scrape a win moan about the manner of the win.

 

It's either all about results (and we then come back to the 2 points a game average) or performance is important... make your mind up.

 

Over the course of the season, you'll have some ridiculous results... it's the law of averages (and why I'd argue that form tables should cover a longer period than the last 6 games) to isolate one result as an indicator of form/likelihood of promotion is barmy... if you're going to do that, why not isolate the weekends result? Or the 6-0?

 

Yes it sucked to lose to Walsall (and Tranmere) but if we go and win the next 3 games then it won't really mean diddly and you'll have those scars on your wrists for nothing....

 

As others have said, if Bournemouth are in 2nd when we've played the same number of games as them then absolutely they deserve to be there... if not then they absolutely don't.

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I dont think it is illogical at all.

Whichever team produces the goods over the season will get second place. Currently that is Bournemouth.

Whichever team produced the goods over the game, won the game. That was Walsall.

 

The point of my OP is that "bad luck", "mugging" and "deserving" are all emotive words of absolutely no relevancy. Who wins (and who gets promoted) is all about putting that white round thing between the two upright white things, and Walsall did it and Bournemouth are doing it. That is why us "wrist slitters" dont give a flying f**k about the amount of "chances created".

 

This is excellent news Alpine - presumably given the views you have so clearly stated here, could you promise us here and now that next time we grind out a win without playing well you will say "excellent win, only the result is relevant" and not "It worries me we didn't dominate/why did we sneak home by the odd goal/we won't get away with that next week/mum, i've wet the bed".

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Don't think I really commented at all but a fair question. We created chances and on most days, 20 sots on goal would warrant a couple of goals. Walsall played out of their skin and deserved the win but if we perform like that on saturday we are more likely to win than lose. As for the league table, I think it's already been said the idea of a football league is to judge the positions at the end of the season not half way through so if we overtake Bournemouth we deserve to be there. if we don't, Bournemouth deserve the second place. Simples. Most teams have down spots and hot bursts. I always think there is less pressure to come from about 6th or 7th to secure second place rather than hold on to second the whole season. I know that makes no sense but supporting Saints makes very little sense. We always start a season poorly and often finish stronger than others.

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Let just spell it out to people again. We have dropped 14 points in 10 games against the bottom 7, teams fighting relegation. P10, W5, D1, L4. We have lost nearly half of our games against teams in the bottom four and in our defeats failed to score in any of the games. Now whilst i dont expect us to win all of them, although we should, i'd expect a team challenging for the title to only lose one, or at worst two. This record cant be just conicidence, this is not because of crap pitches, bad luck, poor referees or any other excuse people might want to make. THat is the mark of a team that lacks bottle for a fight and cant raise it's game when it needs to and may well be the mark of a manager that cant motivate the team when it needs to. One simple question, if the players cant hack the pressure of having to win a game away at the worst home side in L1, how are they going to cope with a play off semi final or final?

And i was at Walsall on tuesday and anyone that says we played "brilliantly" is seriously deluded. Yes we created 5 decent chances in the first half but their keepers saves form them were at best routine, he hardly did anything spectacular to keep them out. Second half all of our chances came from scrambled crosses, i dont remember us working one clear cut chance. This "it was one of those nights" "we lost a game it happens" is wearing thin now. How many more "it was one of those nights" are we going to have? Teams that win things have them here and there but 40% (50% of the time if you include drawing at Yeovil) of the time against relegation strugglers is simply not a case of "one of those nights".

 

Who are you and what have you done with Turkish ? It cant be the real Turkish because a pattern of me agreeing with him is emerging.

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I always think there is less pressure to come from about 6th or 7th to secure second place rather than hold on to second the whole season.

 

I've been thinking the same for a while now. Being where Bournemouth have been for most of the season would, as a Saints fan, make me more nervous looking over our shoulder and thinking "we'll throw this away knowing Saints" than I am looking up from 5th place with a couple of games in hand.

 

Given that Saints NEVER make life easy for their fans I'd rather be in the chasing pack and come in with a late run than in 2nd place trying to defend our position.

 

As illogical as that sounds, that's where I'd rather be right now.

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I've been thinking the same for a while now. Being where Bournemouth have been for most of the season would, as a Saints fan, make me more nervous looking over our shoulder and thinking "we'll throw this away knowing Saints" than I am looking up from 5th place with a couple of games in hand.

 

Given that Saints NEVER make life easy for their fans I'd rather be in the chasing pack and come in with a late run than in 2nd place trying to defend our position.

 

As illogical as that sounds, that's where I'd rather be right now.

 

All the more strength to the argument I've made.

 

Bournemouth have done a superb job over the season, considering their resources AND their change of manager (which hasnt disrupted them the way ours apparently has. They just got on with it...)

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Who are you and what have you done with Turkish ? It cant be the real Turkish because a pattern of me agreeing with him is emerging.

 

Because i am getting fed up with the under performing and the excuses. There is only so far you can defend a team and a manager and i have done in the past as you well know. "it was one of those nights" is a kop out when it happens so often to us. Hartlepool was as well, so was Tranmere, so was Brentford, how many more are we going to have? Our record agains the bottom 7 is embarassing and blaming it on bad luck and crap pitches is not addressing the problem which IMO is the team lack the bottle and the motivation to fight when they are not playing on a bowling green with teams sitting off them letting them play and if that is the case then i am really starting to believe the team lacks the bottle for a promotion push.

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All the more strength to the argument I've made.

 

Bournemouth have done a superb job over the season, considering their resources AND their change of manager (which hasnt disrupted them the way ours apparently has. They just got on with it...)

 

and the fact they've lost both of their leading goal scorers this season.

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Oh and whilst I can't see the inevitable outpouring of illogical guff (I barely even have to read Alpine's quotes with Tapatalk...sweet) I do find it hilarious that the suggestion that being a positive thinker is in some way a bad thing!

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Definitiely better than being in Walsall on a Tuesday evening, freezing my knackers off, watching our promotion campaign fall apart, at least.

 

Hyperbolic ********... our promotion no more 'fell apart' then than was confirmed on our great run of results earlier in the season.

 

It's concerning, and I would have kicked the cat on Tues if she'd been handy but all this moaning will mean nothing should we secure second spot on the last day of the season... it's all irrelevant.

 

I tend to not stress about things that haven't happened yet because you waste a lot of energy on stuff that never comes to pass, expect the best, plan for the worst.

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You've spoken about the "bad luck" and the "chances created" against Walsall, and how we deserved to win and were "mugged".

 

Dont Bournemouth actually deserve second place, and wouldnt we be "mugging" them if we were to snatch it from them in the last couple of weeks of the season, seeing as they have been there for months ?

 

I think there is some double-standards in your thinking.

 

I appreciate positive thinking is an alien concept to you but as I think that I am covered loosely within that description let me try and put 'perspective' in to this...I'm guessing this may be hard to understand also but try and keep up?

 

I didn't speak about being 'mugged' as it happens - only that we played far better, created more chances, corners and (from my listening to the radio only - I wasn't there) played a far more attractive style of football. That last word is quite important...football often bites you as the best team doesn't always win - it's in the nature of the game that this happens - SO - I'm philosophical about this but know that we have a better chance of winning games if we play well...we did and I will be at Colchester thinking that we're playing well and have a good chance.

 

Now you could call this logic as against positive thinking but label as you choose.

 

Bournemouth are where they are on merit, no more, no less - they have surprised me with their ability to keep this going despite personnel changes in the playing and managerial staff but the positive thinker would believe that we can do that too...in fact we have a better crack at it because we have strength in depth - Where are the double standards within that?

 

To summarise then - We lost a game...we played plenty well enough to win it and have a good enough chance to carry on playing that well until every point has been decided..a positive Actually the second point re Bournemouth is too banal to type any further on.

 

Q - If you fell in the water would you open your mouth & let yourself sink thinking that there's a chance that you're going to drown any way so let's get it over with or do you think that the land's only just there, I can swim and give myself the very best chance of clambering out & heading off to dry out? I am intrigued by the vocal depressive that seems to drive your persona..on here anyway...

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