"Accidental" racism

[norwaysaint]

I'm always surprised by the number of times I've seen or heard comments about racism being some kind of minefield of possible offence to sensitive people. I'm 41 and have never had to even think carefully about what I say or do for fear of offending anyone. I've never been accused of saying anything racist or of any kind of offence at all, yet I don't carefully vet my language or opinions.

 

I have no problem referring to skin colour in context and I don't believe all discrimination is wrong (A Chinese person would be a bad choice to play Winston Churchill in a film, but that would be irrelevant in choosing for example, an IT specialist) . What opinion is it some people are having a problem expressing?

 

If somebody's has brown skin and I have to describe what they look like, I would say they had brown skin. Nobody is going to find that offensive, that's a physical description. If skin colour wasn't relevant to what I was talking about, I wouldn't bother mentioning it any more than I'd mention if somebody had a beard, a bald spot or was wearing glasses. I don't think of myself primarily as a white or English, so I wouldn't expect others to refer to me as a white bloke. thus I don't know why some people find ethnicity the first thing they have to mention about other people.

 

I remember as a child, hearing some grown ups use the phrase "darkie", even at the age of about 7, this seemed a condescending way of speaking about someone, nobody had to teach me that this wasn't a good word to use.

 

Also, some people seem to find it confusing that otherwise offensive words might be used within an ethnic group without causing offence, for example the "n" word amongst black people. They then find it unfair that it's offensive if they use it. I have regularly called my friends or even my brother a **** or a **** in "banter" and caused no offence at all, but if somebody else walked over afterwards and called him the same things, it would definitely cause a problem.

 

It's also obviously wrong to judge ethnic groups as if they are all the same. I belong to the same ethnic group as Nick Griffin, but have a completely different moral compass.

 

How on Earth are some people managing to be "accidentally" racist?

[Ohio Saint]

A Chinese person would be a bad choice to play Winston Churchill in a film

 

Saying that Chinese people can't act is racist.

[norwaysaint]

Well, it was OK to say that when I was growing up. It's all so confusing and PC, it's like a minefield.

[gaz]

My town has a fairly significant number of Eastern European migrants. Theres a slightly simple woman at my workplace who greets Poles with the phrase ''So are you here for a holiday or just to take our jobs?''. She has no idea of the offense shes causing.

[saint francis]

Norway, I think it might be helpful to have a little glossary or addendum to the forum, where people can be directed if they don't understand certain accepted norms, such as why the term 'coloured' might be considered offensive, so that normal, fair minded folk don't have to repeatedly explain it to them. Perhaps we could also add a ethnicity FAQ section, such as why the MOBO awards are fine, and why starting a Music of White Origin award ceremony would not be quite the same thing, as someone will suggest every October, without fail.

[tony13579]

It very easy in the states. Just ask for a black or a white coffee! You get a "did he just say that" look.

You should ask for a coffee or a coffee with milk or cream.

[Deano6]

It very easy in the states. Just ask for a black or a white coffee! You get a "did he just say that" look.

You should ask for a coffee or a coffee with milk or cream.

 

Sorry, but that's bull****.

 

(For disclosure I live in New York)

[Barney Trubble]

I agree, it's a minefield and accepted words or phrases change with the OTT PC brigade.

 

Example - I grew up in an area where there were a high proportion of different cultures. A friend of mine, who is black and married to a white lady often refers to his kids as half-caste. It's perfectly normal and acceptable to him (He's in his 40's). He gets offended when he is pulled up on this; usually be white people in authority.

 

He just can't see what's wrong with that term. The term 'mixed race' is often, or was used but that is frowned upon now too and the term 'dual heritage' is often said to be the correct terminology.

 

So, who says who is offended? Who makes the decisions on behalf of the people?

 

I ask the above question as most people I know have a degree of common sense and recognise that there is no malice and yet we get told that we shouldn't use these terms. When my friend is 50, he'll still use 'half-caste'; so will his wife, yet it's offensive to others but it's perfectly acceptable to him and his missus.

[ooh it's a corner]

here's an example.

 

I was working in Naas, County Kildare when I was about 26 years old. Having had a belly full of food and several guinesses one evening with my host, I guess a twenty something Irish chap, called Enda, he said something to me, which caused me to respond, "but that's a bit Irish".

 

What I meant, was that he said something completely daft. The sterotypical Irish thing was, dare I say it, second nature.

 

or accidentally racist.

 

Enda wasn't impressed either way :-)

[bridge too far]

here's an example.

 

I was working in Naas, County Kildare when I was about 26 years old. Having had a belly full of food and several guinesses one evening with my host, I guess a twenty something Irish chap, called Enda, he said something to me, which caused me to respond, "but that's a bit Irish".

 

What I meant, was that he said something completely daft. The sterotypical Irish thing was, dare I say it, second nature.

 

or accidentally racist.

 

Enda wasn't impressed either way :-)

 

Was it the enda your friendship?

[Jillyanne]

My Dad is the worst prejudiced ever but he doesn't limit it, he uses the words - Rags, Blacks, Gays,etc etc!!! But he says it with absolutely no malice - he is 64 so maybe thats something to do with it??

[Jillyanne]

Was it the enda your friendship?

 

Lol!

[ooh it's a corner]

very good :-)

 

erm, didn't stop us having more guinesses on several other occassions in the RoI.

 

just made me realise that racism isn't always black and white

[norwaysaint]

I agree, it's a minefield and accepted words or phrases change with the OTT PC brigade.

 

Example - I grew up in an area where there were a high proportion of different cultures. A friend of mine, who is black and married to a white lady often refers to his kids as half-caste. It's perfectly normal and acceptable to him (He's in his 40's). He gets offended when he is pulled up on this; usually be white people in authority.

 

He just can't see what's wrong with that term. The term 'mixed race' is often, or was used but that is frowned upon now too and the term 'dual heritage' is often said to be the correct terminology.

 

So, who says who is offended? Who makes the decisions on behalf of the people?

 

I ask the above question as most people I know have a degree of common sense and recognise that there is no malice and yet we get told that we shouldn't use these terms. When my friend is 50, he'll still use 'half-caste'; so will his wife, yet it's offensive to others but it's perfectly acceptable to him and his missus.

 

Well, you certainly don't agree with me. I think you either have to be either stupid, socially inept or racist to find it a minefield. Changing the acceptable language isn't necessarily anything to do with PC, it's often just very silly people who, like you, don't really understand how not to be offensive and so invent silly rules.

 

I have dealt with just about every ethnicity you can name in my professional and personal life. I've never tried to be careful or vet what I say first, yet somehow I've found it incredibly easy, even effortless not to be racist. It just doesn't happen and I don't see why it should.

 

I worked for years in international schools where there were staff, students and parents from all around the world. Nobody ever needed advice or lessons in how not to be offensive, yet I never heard any accusations or suspicions of racism, in fact it was an issue that never once came up in 12 years.

 

Not being racist is very, very easy. If I find it easy without making an effort, why do you think you don't?

 

But it's not discriminating to rule out a chinese person playing churchill, or a black man, as they simply couldn't do the role as well. Only discrimination to rule out someone who technically could do it as well.

 

Of course it's discrimination, discrimination just means recognising a difference, but we have to discriminate in everything we do, or we'd just as happily eat gravel as food. What it isn't, is unfair discrimination.

[Saint-Fred]

To be honest it's really simple...

 

People are individuals and as such should not be put into catogories. It's when you do the trouble starts...any easy example is if you said to me the young of today are workshy and running out of control...I could introduce you to 100's who are hardworking and a credit to any country and defy that stereotype.

Yes individuals in that group are workshy and out of control but then I can also find you people who are workshy and out of control in every other age group and race.

 

Therefore I think what you have done is treated each person on their own qualities regardless of race, age, sex etc...and as you do that you won't go far wrong!

[Barney Trubble]

Well, you certainly don't agree with me. I think you either have to be either stupid, socially inept or racist to find it a minefield. Changing the acceptable language isn't necessarily anything to do with PC, it's often just very silly people who, like you, don't really understand how not to be offensive and so invent silly rules.

 

I have dealt with just about every ethnicity you can name in my professional and personal life. I've never tried to be careful or vet what I say first, yet somehow I've found it incredibly easy, even effortless not to be racist. It just doesn't happen and I don't see why it should.

 

I worked for years in international schools where there were staff, students and parents from all around the world. Nobody ever needed advice or lessons in how not to be offensive, yet I never heard any accusations or suspicions of racism, in fact it was an issue that never once came up in 12 years.

 

Not being racist is very, very easy. If I find it easy without making an effort, why do you think you don't?

 

 

 

Of course it's discrimination, discrimination just means recognising a difference, but we have to discriminate in everything we do, or we'd just as happily eat gravel as food. What it isn't, is unfair discrimination.

 

I've worked and lived for twenty years in one of the most multi-cultural areas of the UK. Most people, regardless of ethnicity, will agree that it's now become a very difficult area to work in. I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about to be honest, another case of looking in from the outside and thinking you know better.

 

I've worked on many projects within Birmingham, including one for the NHS to try and establish why there are problematic issues within some sections of the Asian community when dealing with mental health issues and some of the feedback we get from pockets of the Asian community were worrying - you'd have to see the feedback to understand what it has to do with race, creed, culture etc.

 

How do I invent silly rules? Give me some examples?

 

I'm against any form of managed multi-culturism, I don't like it staged and contrived. People have to get on with each other and that's made difficult for those (yourself), who failto grasp the underlying mindset of the underclass (not white).

 

Most people get on, from all cultures, and we don't need politicians to invent laws to tell us how to manage and conduct ourselves. If you have a degree of common sense then it's not a problem. It becomes a problem when politicians think they speak on behalf of the working class people that live and work together without a major problem, as there usually isn't one.

 

You seem to think I have a problem with not being racist, where in my example have I mentioned anything about myself. I'm looking at it from the mindset of many members of the carribean community, in their forties who are reminded that the language they use is offensive. 'Caste' is a Latin word, it has no derogatory meaning or intent, except in the mind of someone who wishes to be offended. It may be an old term now but I think any reasonably minded 'black' person would be a bit offended if he was told "that's considered a racist term" by a teacher, for talking of his children as 'Half-Caste' - that is where resentment surfaces as it's just not offensive or racist.

 

It's an old term that some people still choose to use and what is wrong with that if it has no malicious meaning, it's not like words such as the obviously racist ones.

 

I've dealt with every ethnicity too, on a daily basis for over twenty years - your point?

 

I've worked in schools too, both here and abroad? Your point?

[Verbal]

'Half-caste' is certainly offensive to all mixed-race people I know (including within my own family). It is insulting because it harks back to a time and place when the word 'caste' was used to reinforce the idea that races should not mix (the anti. It's actually a term that originates in the American South, and was used, ironically, by dominant white communities AND minority black communities to stigmatise mixed-race people.

 

In films, the classic example is Dorothy Dandridge, who was actually cast (so to speak) in 'half-caste' roles in a way that conformed to Hollywood stereotypes of mixed-race people as genetically and invariably 'confused' and 'neither one thing nor the other' - as rootless and lost.

 

In law, the 'Half-Caste Act of 1869' in Australia, for example, gave the government the right to forcibly remove mixed-race children from their Aboriginal parents. The law was not repealed until 1970. Similar laws existed in the southern US.

 

So Barney: I'm amazed that you can say you work with other ethnic communities and yet don't know that the word is sensitive in any way.

[Gemmel]

Why on earth would anyone get upset over the term "half cast"???

 

Just the pc brigade going off on one....Stupid

[Verbal]

Why on earth would anyone get upset over the term "half cast"???

 

Just the pc brigade going off on one....Stupid

 

It's not a subject for you to concern yourself with - unless you revel in the 'freedom' to label people however you wish, regardless of any offence caused. Besides, I've just offered an explanation as to why it's offensive. Care to actually reply as opposed to blowing a reactionary gasket?

[Gemmel]

It's not a subject for you to concern yourself with - unless you revel in the 'freedom' to label people however you wish, regardless of any offence caused. Besides, I've just offered an explanation as to why it's offensive. Care to actually reply as opposed to blowing a reactionary gasket?

 

Well, some of my mates refer to themselves or others as half casts, it is not remotely offensive......unless you area drama queen

[Verbal]

Well, some of my mates refer to themselves or others as half casts, it is not remotely offensive......unless you area drama queen

 

At the risk of encouraging you from becoming my barely literate cyberstalker, you really haven't addressed the points I made.

[Plonko]

Isn't it time people stopped being offended where no offence is intended?

[norwaysaint]

I've worked and lived for twenty years in one of the most multi-cultural areas of the UK. Most people, regardless of ethnicity, will agree that it's now become a very difficult area to work in. I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about to be honest, another case of looking in from the outside and thinking you know better.

 

I've worked on many projects within Birmingham, including one for the NHS to try and establish why there are problematic issues within some sections of the Asian community when dealing with mental health issues and some of the feedback we get from pockets of the Asian community were worrying - you'd have to see the feedback to understand what it has to do with race, creed, culture etc.

 

How do I invent silly rules? Give me some examples?

 

I'm against any form of managed multi-culturism, I don't like it staged and contrived. People have to get on with each other and that's made difficult for those (yourself), who failto grasp the underlying mindset of the underclass (not white).

 

Most people get on, from all cultures, and we don't need politicians to invent laws to tell us how to manage and conduct ourselves. If you have a degree of common sense then it's not a problem. It becomes a problem when politicians think they speak on behalf of the working class people that live and work together without a major problem, as there usually isn't one.

 

You seem to think I have a problem with not being racist, where in my example have I mentioned anything about myself. I'm looking at it from the mindset of many members of the carribean community, in their forties who are reminded that the language they use is offensive. 'Caste' is a Latin word, it has no derogatory meaning or intent, except in the mind of someone who wishes to be offended. It may be an old term now but I think any reasonably minded 'black' person would be a bit offended if he was told "that's considered a racist term" by a teacher, for talking of his children as 'Half-Caste' - that is where resentment surfaces as it's just not offensive or racist.

 

It's an old term that some people still choose to use and what is wrong with that if it has no malicious meaning, it's not like words such as the obviously racist ones.

 

I've dealt with every ethnicity too, on a daily basis for over twenty years - your point?

 

I've worked in schools too, both here and abroad? Your point?

 

On the outside looking in? Outside of what?

 

My point is simply that I have always worked in multi-ethnic situations and have no trouble at all speaking in a way that is not racially offensive. I've never even had to make an effort and somehow I've managed never to be racist.

 

By your own admission, you find it a minefield. I didn't say you make up silly rules, I said you don't understand how not to be offensive, hence your minefield. I don't seem to have to walk through a minefield despite dealing with different ethnicity every day.

 

I also worked and lived in several areas of Birmingham with a very high ethnic mix for most of the nineties. Again, without making any effort, I managed not to be racially offensive. It's really not difficult.

 

I don't know where you get your idea of me being "on the outside looking in" from, but believe me I have always worked with people of different ethnicity closely. The difference is, you are saying it's difficult to do that without being offensive. I'm saying it's easy and I've never ever felt like I'm negotiating any kind of linguistic minefield. For some reason it's trickier for you.

[Secret Site Agent]

I'm always surprised by the number of times I've seen or heard comments about racism being some kind of minefield of possible offence to sensitive people. I'm 41 and have never had to even think carefully about what I say or do for fear of offending anyone. I've never been accused of saying anything racist or of any kind of offence at all, yet I don't carefully vet my language or opinions.

 

I have no problem referring to skin colour in context and I don't believe all discrimination is wrong (A Chinese person would be a bad choice to play Winston Churchill in a film, but that would be irrelevant in choosing for example, an IT specialist) . What opinion is it some people are having a problem expressing?

 

If somebody's has brown skin and I have to describe what they look like, I would say they had brown skin. Nobody is going to find that offensive, that's a physical description. If skin colour wasn't relevant to what I was talking about, I wouldn't bother mentioning it any more than I'd mention if somebody had a beard, a bald spot or was wearing glasses. I don't think of myself primarily as a white or English, so I wouldn't expect others to refer to me as a white bloke. thus I don't know why some people find ethnicity the first thing they have to mention about other people.

 

I remember as a child, hearing some grown ups use the phrase "darkie", even at the age of about 7, this seemed a condescending way of speaking about someone, nobody had to teach me that this wasn't a good word to use.

 

Also, some people seem to find it confusing that otherwise offensive words might be used within an ethnic group without causing offence, for example the "n" word amongst black people. They then find it unfair that it's offensive if they use it. I have regularly called my friends or even my brother a **** or a **** in "banter" and caused no offence at all, but if somebody else walked over afterwards and called him the same things, it would definitely cause a problem.

 

It's also obviously wrong to judge ethnic groups as if they are all the same. I belong to the same ethnic group as Nick Griffin, but have a completely different moral compass.

 

How on Earth are some people managing to be "accidentally" racist?

 

I always remember the row over a chippie, a Jamaican feller called 'Spookie'. When I first heard it I thought it was racist, but soon found it to be because he used to work at GCHQ until he had a nervous breakdown and couldn't do it any more, (and yes I not only saw his old pass, but we exchanged knowing glances occasionally). Always referred to him as Wesley though. Never sat right with me, probably my age and background. My Nan did refer to tights as N-brown once and when my friend came round, my great uncle told me there was a 'Negress' at the door for me. I just think that the older generation were of that ilk, and this is what was the norm when they were growing up. But a lot of the younger ones, (and i'm not that young now) are not, as we are brought up with a more multi cultural society. Racism is learnt, I believe, not inherent, because of this. And a lot of PC outrage is done now a days by do-gooders on behalf of the agreived minority who aren't even offended and are more insulted by the do-gooders actions than anything.

Edited 8 January, 2012 by Secret Site Agent

[Ohio Saint]

Isn't it time people stopped being offended where no offence is intended?

 

Offence can't be given, it can only be taken.

[buctootim]

Pizza parlour's 'Lady chinky eyes' description got people fired up.

http://us.cnn.com/2012/01/08/us/new-york-papa-johns-receipt/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

[Plonko]

Offence can't be given, it can only be taken.

 

But you can intend to cause offence.

[trousers]

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/danny-baker-fired-broadcaster-sacked-by-bbc-radio-5-live-over-racist-tweet-a4137951.html

 

 

 

[Lighthouse]

Baker has always been a bit of a tit but I think this falls into Hodgson/Townsend category of wilful misinterpretation. Nobody genuinely thinks he is calling (25%) black people monkeys but they’re willing to pretend they do so they can get offended.

[aintforever]

here's an example.

 

I was working in Naas, County Kildare when I was about 26 years old. Having had a belly full of food and several guinesses one evening with my host, I guess a twenty something Irish chap, called Enda, he said something to me, which caused me to respond, "but that's a bit Irish".

 

What I meant, was that he said something completely daft. The sterotypical Irish thing was, dare I say it, second nature.

 

or accidentally racist.

 

Enda wasn't impressed either way :-)

 

Irish isn't a race so it's not racist.

[buctootim]

Baker has always been a bit of a tit but I think this falls into Hodgson/Townsend category of wilful misinterpretation. Nobody genuinely thinks he is calling (25%) black people monkeys but they’re willing to pretend they do so they can get offended.

 

If there was something obviously funny in the photo that people ignored and you had to contort your thinking to see it as racist, you'd be right. But there isn't, so you aren't.

Edited 9 May, 2019 by buctootim

[buctootim]

Irish isn't a race so it's not racist.

 

Shall we do the racism versus vanilla prejudice debate now?

[Cabbage_Face]

Danny Baker, what a tit.

[aintforever]

Shall we do the racism versus vanilla prejudice debate now?

 

No debate to have, it is xenophobic not racist.

[buctootim]

No debate to have, it is xenophobic not racist.

 

Aah cool. Maybe if you could give us a breakdown of the definitions of the following words and which groups should or shouldnt be offended we can then just skip to the end.

 

Racism

Xenophobia

Prejudice

Sectarianism

Bigotry

[shurlock]

aintforever, the forum linguist, what a tit

[Lighthouse]

If there was something obviously funny in the photo that people ignored and you had to contort your thinking to see it as racist, you'd be right. But there isn't, so you aren't.

 

I don’t know about ‘obviously funny’ but the point of the tweet was quite obviously calling the royal baby a chimp and not black people as a race.

 

I have no doubt that there are prominent media personalities who may think along those lines but the idea that a broadcaster and entertainer would knowingly say something so blatant, knowing it would be the end of his career, is ridiculous.

 

Even Nick Griffin wouldn’t tweet something is blatant as, "black people are monkeys," so why you think Danny Baker would I don’t know.

[buctootim]

I don’t know about ‘obviously funny’ but the point of the tweet was quite obviously calling the royal baby a chimp and not black people as a race

 

The point is exactly that he called a mixed race baby a chimp. Whether its more appropriate to coruscate him for 1970s racism or catastrophic stupidity is irrelevant.

[Lighthouse]

The point is exactly that he called a mixed race baby a chimp. Whether its more appropriate to coruscate him for 1970s racism or catastrophic stupidity is irrelevant.

 

Actually it's neither. He has been fired for not realising that a joke could be misinterpreted.

 

Welcome to 2019; People are being sacked for saying something with zero malice aforethought. He should have just been allowed to delete the tweet, explain what he meant and we can all move on.

[hypochondriac]

Danny Baker clearly isn't racist and the whole thing is beyond stupid. Having said that, everyone knows what twitter is like nowadays so he only has himself to blame for getting fired. If I was in his position I'd probably just stay off twitter entirely.

[shurlock]

Didn’t dune get banned on here for posting a monkey picture in a joke about a black Olympic athlete?

[buctootim]

He has been fired for not realising that a joke could be misinterpreted.

 

Catastrophic stupidity it is then

[aintforever]

Aah cool. Maybe if you could give us a breakdown of the definitions of the following words and which groups should or shouldnt be offended we can then just skip to the end.

 

Racism

Xenophobia

Prejudice

Sectarianism

Bigotry

 

They can all be offensive. I would have thought that was obvious?

 

There is a clear difference between xenophobia and racism though, for example 50,000 England fans can sing "sad Scottish bastard" and it's considered just banter, replace Scottish with black and it's not.

Edited 9 May, 2019 by aintforever

[buctootim]

Didn’t dune get banned on here for posting a monkey picture in a joke about a black Olympic athlete?

 

Not by Lighthouse!!

[Lighthouse]

Catastrophic stupidity it is then

 

So the Beeb are going to sack everyone they employ who's a bit stupid? Could take a while.

 

Not by Lighthouse!!

 

Yeah, I must support racism because I don't think Danny Baker deserved to lose his job.

 

You stay classy Tim.

[Manuel]

"Also, guessing it was my turn in the barrel."

 

Thought this line was telling. People like him aren't part of the BBC's future and he knows it.

[shurlock]

"Also, guessing it was my turn in the barrel."

 

Thought this line was telling. People like him aren't part of the BBC's future and he knows it.

 

Run by leftie, liberal pinkos, innit pal.

[buctootim]

Yeah, I must support racism because I don't think Danny Baker deserved to lose his job.

 

You stay classy Tim.

 

Tsk. I think you misinterpreted that joke and you have taken to social media to criticise me. I accept your apology

[Manuel]

I think you DO have to consider intention in cases like this, and he has made clear what his intention was regarding the "joke", ie the meaning of it. However it could be misinterpreted, so he quickly took it down. The only reason to sack him in my opinion, is if you think he's lying about his intention.

[sadoldgit]

Danny Baker isn’t stupid so I am surprised that he didn’t realise how his “gag” would be interpreted. He has never come across as a Tommy Robinson type and it is a shame that he should lose his job over what seems to be clearly a misjudged attempt at humour. A slapped wrist and a few weeks garden leave would probably have done the trick. Ironic that we have someone clinging on to her job despite the fact that most of the country want her gone for massive ineptitude whereas Baker has to go for poking a bit of fun at a minor royal. If he had meant it as a racist comment of course he had to go, but I don’t believe for one minute that he did mean it that way.