Come on you labour apologists

[Turkish]

Worm your way out of this one. Bit late tony the war criminal

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3907980.ece

[Colinjb]

Oh, that is beautiful.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

I can only read the sample paragraphs but to be honest I agree with him. There was waste that could have been whittled down.

 

However:

 

- That doesn't mean Labour isn't the best party for government now

- It doesn't mean the Tories would have done anything different - most countries were running similar levels of debt and the Tories didn't oppose Labour's spending plans at the time

- We would still have an enormous debt due to the banks even if we had a run a surplus

[badgerx16]

Maggie's bastard offspring in 'Mea Culpa' shock - don't EVER accuse Bliar of being a Labour politician.

[Batman]

But he was a labour politician. And won a record number of wins for you.

 

No one was saying he wasn't 10 years or so ago

[View From The Top]

But he was a labour politician. And won a record number of wins for you.

 

No one was saying he wasn't 10 years or so ago

 

Jog on, plenty were, as soon as he took us to war in Iraq. How much treasure and blood did that man cost this nation.

 

I wouldn't trust the c**t to tell me the sun was shining let alone his version of history.

[Colinjb]

Jog on, plenty were, as soon as he took us to war in Iraq. How much treasure and blood did that man cost this nation.

 

I wouldn't trust the c**t to tell me the sun was shining let alone his version of history.

 

Bet that stopped you voting for him in the subsequent general elections didn't it?

[View From The Top]

Bet that stopped you voting for him in the subsequent general elections didn't it?

 

Yes it did. I quite my membership of the party over Iraq and have never rejoined and nor did I vote for Blair, or Brown as a matter of fact. I call it having principles.

 

The man is a war criminal and his legacy is of death, destruction and a religious civil war that is still claiming 100s of lives.

[Colinjb]

Yes it did. I quite my membership of the party over Iraq and have never rejoined and nor did I vote for Blair, or Brown as a matter of fact. I call it having principles.

 

The man is a war criminal and his legacy is of death, destruction and a religious civil war that is still claiming 100s of lives.

 

Fair play. Good to see a man with principles.

 

The record shows however that there were millions who didn't care.

[Sour Mash]

Does anyone actually dispute that the 13 years of Labour government left this country in a mess?

[aintforever]

Labour should have kept control of spending better but we would still be in a mess regardless of who was in government. There is no way the Tories would have regulated the banks any more, if anything they would have done less.

[Gambol2K9]

I agree that Labour made a mess of things and consider myself fairly unbiased as i have voted for all three major parties before.

I genuinely don't believe any of them offer a true choice, it's three variations of the same theme.

Feel pretty apathetic about voting at the next general election.

[DuncanRG]

The Conservatives matched Labour's spending plans in this period. They both got it wrong.

[Hockey_saint]

I agree that Labour made a mess of things and consider myself fairly unbiased as i have voted for all three major parties before.

I genuinely don't believe any of them offer a true choice, it's three variations of the same theme.

Feel pretty apathetic about voting at the next general election.

 

 

 

True, and in that sense, they're all "ba5tard children of Thatcher" I hate the way the right try to make a point about Labour when frankly, their own leaders would have done exactly the same....and are I should say.

 

Also, Trying to score cheap political points from a former leader is a bit rich from the conservatives. The party who had a leader once so doped up on drugs that he, for his own ends concocted his own phony war (Suez ring any bells? or perhaps the Falklands which was a result of Tory cuts or perhaps the first Gulf war? or any other war the conservative party has seen fit to drag British subjects into for their own ends and usually in the name of the "empire")

Edited 31 October, 2013 by Hockey_saint

[tony13579]

I can't defend the spending madness. I recall Alan Whitehead personally telling me that they needed to reform civil service pensions back in 1992. They were too scared to make a small adjustment that would have prevented massive pain today.

 

The spending madness on shiny schools and universities is shameful started by labour, continued by that pointless sheep Cameron.

 

HS2, say no more.

 

Cameron has surrounded him self with people he admires from the media. Then attacked the media. And now he wonders why he is caught up in the crossfire? Doh!

 

Labour praised the banks for the income and ingenious products that they didn't understand. When the crash happened somehow they persuaded Lloyds and coop, well run banks to buy banks with huge toxic debts. Ruining the two good banks.

 

Then there is green energy taxes. Wasted on solar panels for the rich. Paid for by the poor. Huge wasteful schemes for council buildings

One million quid wasted collecting rainwater on a school! Water worth £10k. Solar panels down the motorway? That need five trucks with flashing lights to maintain them. Wind farms.

How much per unit does each folly cost? They won't tell us because its too much!

 

Because they have both wasted money we now have the madness of bedroom tax. Retirement at 67. Increasing domestic and road fuel.

 

I am both a socialist and a capitalist. We should look after the old and sick, not the skivers. Work and investing should pay. We need tougher treatment of company bosses who take criminally insane gambles,with investors money and safety. The get payoffs rather than prison.

[pap]

Yes it did. I quite my membership of the party over Iraq and have never rejoined and nor did I vote for Blair, or Brown as a matter of fact. I call it having principles.

 

The man is a war criminal and his legacy is of death, destruction and a religious civil war that is still claiming 100s of lives.

 

I never voted for them once after Iraq, but had never been a member beforehand.

 

Joined the Labour Party last year and went to an inauguration thingy for new members. Almost everyone there was:-

 

a) an old member, rejoining after leaving over Iraq

b) a new member who didn't fancy joining because of Iraq

[Johnny Bognor]

Things can only get better LOL

[badgerx16]

Maggie's bastard offspring in 'Mea Culpa' shock - don't EVER accuse Bliar of being a Labour politician.

 

But he was a labour politician. And won a record number of wins for you.

 

No one was saying he wasn't 10 years or so ago

 

He didn't win them for me - never been a member of any political party.

 

Yes I voted Labour in his first win, but voted LibDem subsequently - my vote is always wasted anyway as it's usually a fairly safe Tory seat.

[saintbletch]

The Iraq war aside, Blair's biggest crime was to trash the hopes and dreams of the many who were disillusioned by successive Conservative governments, and to go on to squander a potential era-building majority by becoming what he claimed to oppose.

 

I wish we had an Orwell around today that could cast Blair as the modern day Napoleon who deposed Farmer Jones only to go on to become his own version of Farmer Jones. Perhaps that will be my retirement project.

 

His legacy was the deepening of the distrust that the electorate holds for politicians to the point where apathy has now replaced ideology.

 

The labour movement died, or at least lies mortally wounded with Blair's new labour project.

 

To the OP, as he has no consistent principles, nothing he says surprises me, but perhaps the thread title should have the adjective "new" added?

[badgerx16]

The Iraq war aside, Blair's biggest crime was to trash the hopes and dreams of the many who were disillusioned by successive Conservative governments, and to go on to squander a potential era-building majority by becoming what he claimed to oppose.

 

I wish we had an Orwell around today that could cast Blair as the modern day Napoleon who deposed Farmer Jones only to go on to become his own version of Farmer Jones. Perhaps that will be my retirement project.

 

His legacy was the deepening of the distrust that the electorate holds for politicians to the point where apathy has now replaced ideology.

 

The labour movement died, or at least lies mortally wounded with Blair's new labour project.

 

To the OP, as he has no consistent principles, nothing he says surprises me, but perhaps the thread title should have the adjective "new" added?

 

Top post.

[Pugwash]

The Iraq war aside, Blair's biggest crime was to trash the hopes and dreams of the many who were disillusioned by successive Conservative governments, and to go on to squander a potential era-building majority by becoming what he claimed to oppose.

 

I wish we had an Orwell around today that could cast Blair as the modern day Napoleon who deposed Farmer Jones only to go on to become his own version of Farmer Jones. Perhaps that will be my retirement project.

 

His legacy was the deepening of the distrust that the electorate holds for politicians to the point where apathy has now replaced ideology.

 

The labour movement died, or at least lies mortally wounded with Blair's new labour project.

 

To the OP, as he has no consistent principles, nothing he says surprises me, but perhaps the thread title should have the adjective "new" added?

 

Excellent, insightful and considered post as usual SB.

[Pugwash]

The Iraq war aside, Blair's biggest crime was to trash the hopes and dreams of the many who were disillusioned by successive Conservative governments, and to go on to squander a potential era-building majority by becoming what he claimed to oppose.

 

I wish we had an Orwell around today that could cast Blair as the modern day Napoleon who deposed Farmer Jones only to go on to become his own version of Farmer Jones. Perhaps that will be my retirement project.

 

His legacy was the deepening of the distrust that the electorate holds for politicians to the point where apathy has now replaced ideology.

 

The labour movement died, or at least lies mortally wounded with Blair's new labour project.

 

To the OP, as he has no consistent principles, nothing he says surprises me, but perhaps the thread title should have the adjective "new" added?

 

Excellent, insightful and considered post as usual SB.

Edited 31 October, 2013 by Pugwash
What's with the double posts recently???

[View From The Top]

The Iraq war aside, Blair's biggest crime was to trash the hopes and dreams of the many who were disillusioned by successive Conservative governments, and to go on to squander a potential era-building majority by becoming what he claimed to oppose.

 

I wish we had an Orwell around today that could cast Blair as the modern day Napoleon who deposed Farmer Jones only to go on to become his own version of Farmer Jones. Perhaps that will be my retirement project.

 

His legacy was the deepening of the distrust that the electorate holds for politicians to the point where apathy has now replaced ideology.

 

The labour movement died, or at least lies mortally wounded with Blair's new labour project.

 

To the OP, as he has no consistent principles, nothing he says surprises me, but perhaps the thread title should have the adjective "new" added?

 

True story.

[Barry Sanchez]

But he was a labour politician. And won a record number of wins for you.

 

No one was saying he wasn't 10 years or so ago

 

 

Yes they were Bruce.

[badgerx16]

Yes they were Bruce.

 

Indeed, after Bliar's first term I had, for a while, the following as my scrolling screensaver -

 

"New Labour, Tory lite. Different colour, same old sh!te".

[Sour Mash]

The Iraq war aside, Blair's biggest crime was to trash the hopes and dreams of the many who were disillusioned by successive Conservative governments, and to go on to squander a potential era-building majority by becoming what he claimed to oppose.

 

I wish we had an Orwell around today that could cast Blair as the modern day Napoleon who deposed Farmer Jones only to go on to become his own version of Farmer Jones. Perhaps that will be my retirement project.

 

His legacy was the deepening of the distrust that the electorate holds for politicians to the point where apathy has now replaced ideology.

 

The labour movement died, or at least lies mortally wounded with Blair's new labour project.

 

To the OP, as he has no consistent principles, nothing he says surprises me, but perhaps the thread title should have the adjective "new" added?

But the majority of Labour supporters continued to vote for him.

[Sour Mash]

Indeed, after Bliar's first term I had, for a while, the following as my scrolling screensaver -

 

"New Labour, Tory lite. Different colour, same old sh!te".

Why did you do that?

[Ex Lion Tamer]

But the majority of Labour supporters continued to vote for him.

 

I didn't agree with the Iraq war and went on the march (the UK's biggest ever protest).

 

But with that decision already made to go into Iraq, people in certain constituencies had a choice. Either vote Labour, or let the Tories back in and have them do damage to our country as well (obviously not damage that is comparable to Iraq, but still).

 

That, alongside all those middle England and floating voters who had been won over from the Tories and didn't really care about Iraq, was why Blair won another majority.

 

Iraq was a disgrace but things like the minimum wage (which both the Tories and Lib Dems opposed) and investment in the NHS were worth protecting.

Edited 31 October, 2013 by Ex Lion Tamer

[Sour Mash]

I didn't agree with the Iraq war and went on the march (the UK's biggest ever protest).

 

But with that decision already made to go into Iraq, people in certain constituencies had a choice. Either vote Labour, or let the Tories back in and have them do damage to our country as well (obviously not damage that is comparable to Iraq, but still).

 

That, alongside all those middle England and floating voters who had been won over from the Tories and didn't really care about Iraq, was why Blair won another majority.

 

Iraq was a disgrace but things like the minimum wage (which both the Tories and Lib Dems opposed) and investment in the NHS were worth protecting.

Surely that should be in reply to Saint Bletch and not me?

[Turkish]

Indeed, after Bliar's first term I had, for a while, the following as my scrolling screensaver -

 

"New Labour, Tory lite. Different colour, same old sh!te".

 

So you're saying old labour was so poor they copied some of the Tories policies?

[Ex Lion Tamer]

Surely that should be in reply to Saint Bletch and not me?

 

Possibly I have misunderstood but I thought you were condemning Labour supporters for still voting Blair even though they disapproved of Iraq.

 

But I'll throw my comments out to whoever they are relevant to, I guess

[View From The Top]

So you're saying old labour was so poor they copied some of the Tories policies?

 

They were unelectable. Blair, for all his faults, made them electable but his messiah complex got in the way.

 

He brought politics to the centre ground and that is where every election is now fought. There isn't an awful lot between One Nation tories and "New" Labour.

[badgerx16]

Why did you do that?

 

Betrayal.

 

I also set my screen background to a red rose with a black border - mourning the death of democracy in this country. What we were left with is a centrist mish-mash of policies designed for middle class swing voters in marginal seats.

[buctootim]

mourning the death of democracy in this country. What we were left with is a centrist mish-mash of policies designed for middle class swing voters in marginal seats.

 

They are the only ones whose votes really count. Everybody else is just background noise.

[View From The Top]

They are the only ones whose votes really count. Everybody else is just background noise.

 

Which, for all of us, is a great pity and shows the real lack of real democracy there is in the country.

[buctootim]

Which, for all of us, is a great pity and shows the real lack of real democracy there is in the country.

 

 

Its one the reasons I want a PR system instead of first past the post. Critics say it will lead to weak coalition government. I think it will actually lead to people thinking more about the candidate when they vote, instead of the party - and in the long run actually get better people standing for election.

[aintforever]

Its one the reasons I want a PR system instead of first past the post. Critics say it will lead to weak coalition government. I think it will actually lead to people thinking more about the candidate when they vote, instead of the party - and in the long run actually get better people standing for election.

 

Agree, there are so many places in the country where your vote counts for nothing. Where I live it's a straight fight between the Tories and Lib Dems, there is zero point in me bothering except to try to vote tactically to keep the Tories out - not exactly democracy at it's finest.

[Batman]

Agree, there are so many places in the country where your vote counts for nothing. Where I live it's a straight fight between the Tories and Lib Dems, there is zero point in me bothering except to try to vote tactically to keep the Tories out - not exactly democracy at it's finest.

 

its is isnt it? people around your area generally vote those parties?

[Batman]

Agree, there are so many places in the country where your vote counts for nothing. Where I live it's a straight fight between the Tories and Lib Dems, there is zero point in me bothering except to try to vote tactically to keep the Tories out - not exactly democracy at it's finest.

 

its is isnt it? people around your area generally vote those parties?

[aintforever]

its is isnt it? people around your area generally vote those parties?

 

Yeah but the policies that matter, which we generally vote for, are decided on a national level. You could have 10-20% of the public feel strongly about a marginal party and they get no seats whatsoever.

 

I would vote green if my vote counted for anything, but because it wont I vote Lib Dem just because I don't dislike them as much as the Tories. How is s system which gets people voting for parties they don't believe in truly democratic?

Edited 31 October, 2013 by aintforever

[Turkish]

Yeah but the policies that matter, which we generally vote for, are decided on a national level. You could have 10-20% of the public feel strongly about a marginal party and they get no seats whatsoever.

 

I would vote green if my vote counted for anything, but because it wont I vote Lib Dem just because I don't dislike them as much as the Tories. How is s system which gets people voting for parties they don't believe in truly democratic?

 

But the people in your area prefer the Tories or lib dems to labour. Maybe you're the odd one pal.

[Batman]

you are free to vote for whoever you want. no one forces you to tactically vote (or actually vote)

[aintforever]

you are free to vote for whoever you want. no one forces you to tactically vote (or actually vote)

 

You don't think it's fair that if 10% of the population vote for a specific party then they should get 10% of the seats?

 

Surely that is what democracy is all about.

[Sour Mash]

Betrayal.

 

I also set my screen background to a red rose with a black border - mourning the death of democracy in this country. What we were left with is a centrist mish-mash of policies designed for middle class swing voters in marginal seats.

We're "left" with such policies and governments because in the main that is what the people of this country want. It might not be your choice, but that's one of the downsides of democracy I'm afraid.

[Sour Mash]

You don't think it's fair that if 10% of the population vote for a specific party then they should get 10% of the seats?

 

Surely that is what democracy is all about.

I agree with the idea of PR as a general principle, but how much of a difference would it really make to who we have in power? Not much I would argue. Maybe a couple of green mps, a couple of far left and maybe a far right one at a stretch, the majority would still be very similar to what we have now.

[Viking Warrior]

I'm changing my allegiance to labour ed milliband is such an inspirational leader . He's ready to put down the opposition at a drop of a hat . His plans on an energy freeze for twenty months saving me about £3 a month is earth shattering . And he's sees nothing wrong in the unite union in Grangemouth or them going to meet their employers families and chanting their praises

 

Mr milliband I salute you . a return to callaghans seventies is just round the corner . Keep up the fine work

[Batman]

You don't think it's fair that if 10% of the population vote for a specific party then they should get 10% of the seats?

 

Surely that is what democracy is all about.

 

but the country does not want that. The democratic process spoke, didnt it?

about 68% voted no.

[saintbletch]

But the majority of Labour supporters continued to vote for him.

 

I don't speak for a majority of Labour supporters, just myself.

 

But if I were to speculate, I'd suggest that there were two factors at play, each in tension with the other.

 

Firstly, you have the dyed-in-the-wool voter, for whom they simply can't conceive of voting for anyone else. A lazy, but understandable position and I guess to some, despite Blair's issues, he may have appeared as the best of a bad bunch.

 

Secondly, you have the fact that it was only really the lens of time that has brought Blair's actions into focus. Many, as evidenced in this thread, turned against Blair and Labour after Iraq. But whilst he was in office, and before Iraq, I think he appeared to many to be a politician wrestling with the usual Westminster inertia and intra-party schisms. He also managed to throw out some sops to the traditional Labour fold; the minimum wage for example. It was only after all the goodwill had been used up and the majority wasted, that I believe the realisation dawned on many Labour supporters that they may have been conned.

 

So I don't see a conflict between my first post and your observation Sour Mash.

 

I mean, right now Cameron is probably judged by most level-headed, non-partisan punters as doing an OK job; given the very tough times, the need to tame a divided party, the appeasement of a coalition partner and the threat of a new entrant into the political landscape looking to steal the right vote.

 

But if in time we see Cameron leave politics and take up directorships of energy firms, rail line construction companies and investment banks, we might all judge him differently.

[saintbletch]

Surely that should be in reply to Saint Bletch and not me?

 

I don't see why.

 

Ex Lion Tamer's position seems entirely consistent with mine.

 

What am I missing?

[Sour Mash]

I don't speak for a majority of Labour supporters, just myself.

 

But if I were to speculate, I'd suggest that there were two factors at play, each in tension with the other.

 

Firstly, you have the dyed-in-the-wool voter, for whom they simply can't conceive of voting for anyone else. A lazy, but understandable position and I guess to some, despite Blair's issues, he may have appeared as the best of a bad bunch.

 

Secondly, you have the fact that it was only really the lens of time that has brought Blair's actions into focus. Many, as evidenced in this thread, turned against Blair and Labour after Iraq. But whilst he was in office, and before Iraq, I think he appeared to many to be a politician wrestling with the usual Westminster inertia and intra-party schisms. He also managed to throw out some sops to the traditional Labour fold; the minimum wage for example. It was only after all the goodwill had been used up and the majority wasted, that I believe the realisation dawned on many Labour supporters that they may have been conned.

 

So I don't see a conflict between my first post and your observation Sour Mash.

 

I mean, right now Cameron is probably judged by most level-headed, non-partisan punters as doing an OK job; given the very tough times, the need to tame a divided party, the appeasement of a coalition partner and the threat of a new entrant into the political landscape looking to steal the right vote.

 

But if in time we see Cameron leave politics and take up directorships of energy firms, rail line construction companies and investment banks, we might all judge him differently.

I don't think I suggested you spoke for the majority of Labour supporters. This thread isn't about you. The majority of Labour supporters continued to vote for him and support him. How many serious, determined, well supported attempts were there to oust Blair while he was in office? The point being he was a Labour PM happily supported by the majority of the Labour party.