Goalkeeper Situation

[OldNick]

1. At least you've laid off the "people want us to have five keepers" garbage. Progress.

 

2. We signed Kelvin in the Championship which as I recall is different from the Premier League.

 

3. Kelvin said himself that he didn't want to be second fiddle at West Ham, he's quoted saying it.

 

4. What has the decision he made in 2009 to stay at Saints have to do with subsequent contract he signed in 2013?

 

5. I think clubs transfer and loan players all the time. I reckon loaning or selling player is perfectly possible. Really rather strange that you don't get that. You think we should play Paulo Gazzaniga in our Premier League campaign but think it impossible that any other club in the world could take him on loan or transfer. Pragmatic stuff, I'm sure.

 

Such fun.

as for point 2, that is not the reason he didnt join WHU. He was about to sign when NC spoke to him and asked him to stay and be a part of the clubs future growth. i know that for a fact as at the time i had a decne contact at the club

[OldNick]

Someone please tell me Kelvin is out of contract in the summer???!?!?!?!

Batman if you wait long enough any player you dislike will give you an opportunity to make a swipe. I suspect you would find fault in the brazil side of 1970

[hutch]

That header was far too close to Banks.

[Window Cleaner]

That's a pretty bold statement. Where did you get that from?

 

Premier league rules I expect.

[hutch]

Nope

[Saint Charlie]

That's a pretty bold statement. Where did you get that from?

 

Point 9 below.

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/new-premier-league-25-man-squad-3349993

 

We don't have more than 25 senior players, so had to name Forster whether or not he is/was going to be able to play.

[Saint Charlie]

Nope

 

It is PL rules. See below.

[Window Cleaner]

It is PL rules. See below.

 

Has been for a while..which is why JonnoQuick was at one time named as a PL squad player despite the then manager's intention of never playing him or even letting him train with the first team group.

[hutch]

So it's not in the rules then. In fact the opposite. The rules explicitly cover the situation where a player is regsitered at the club, is over 21 but is not included in the squad list.

 

I'm talking about this year's rules, not 2010.

 

If I'm wrong perhaps you can show me the rule.

[Saint Charlie]

Its pretty clear. If you have eligible players they must be named. You can only not list a player if you already have 25 and then need to decide which players to leave out.

 

9) Clubs do not have to name a full squad of 25 if they do not have that many contracted players and in this case they can add free agents outside the transfer window. However if they have 25 eligible contracted players, they must be named.

 

Doesn't even matter in the context of our goalkeepers!

[hutch]

I'm talking about the 2015/16 Premier League rules, Charlie, not a 5 year old clip from the Daily Mirror.

 

Is it in the rules?

[Saint Charlie]

Looks like Spurs left out Adebayor having only named 23 players so maybe it has changed and you don't now need to name everyone like you used to.

 

PL website doesn't have the latest set of rules that I can find.

 

Although re Forster, no reason not to name him as we have space.

[sadoldgit]

Like it or not Davis is our current no.2. There is a reason Gazza isn't and that is because Davis is still better than Gazza. We clearly need a better stand in. Perhaps the plan is to sign Stek permanently once FF is back as back up? Who knows?

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Like it or not Davis is our current no.2. There is a reason Gazza isn't and that is because Davis is still better than Gazza. We clearly need a better stand in. Perhaps the plan is to sign Stek permanently once FF is back as back up? Who knows?

 

But that doesn't really address why we went into this season with Davis as our number 2

[hutch]

Looks like Spurs left out Adebayor having only named 23 players so maybe it has changed and you don't now need to name everyone like you used to.

 

PL website doesn't have the latest set of rules that I can find.

 

Although re Forster, no reason not to name him as we have space.

It's called the Premier League Handbook 2015/16 and freely available on t'web.

 

Is it possible with Forster that he's named not because we have to, but because the club thinks that there's some chance, however slim, that he might be ready for some kind of action before the end of January, which would be about 46 weeks after he sustained the injury that was reported at the time to keep him out "for up to a year"?

 

The only sources I've seen that say he won't play this season are an article in the Sun in August, you, and CBFry.

 

Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer something with a bit more substance.

[Whitey Grandad]

Looks like Spurs left out Adebayor having only named 23 players so maybe it has changed and you don't now need to name everyone like you used to.

 

PL website doesn't have the latest set of rules that I can find.

 

Although re Forster, no reason not to name him as we have space.

 

You could try looking in here:

 

http://www.premierleague.com/content/dam/premierleague/site-content/News/publications/handbooks/premier-league-handbook-2015-16.pdf

[sadoldgit]

But that doesn't really address why we went into this season with Davis as our number 2

 

I guess that the management team feel that Kelvin can still do a job as back up. I still cant get my head around why Gazza hasn't been replaced. I'd love to see a decent young up and coming keeper here as no 2 but I guess that isn't going to happen any time soon. I feel sorry for KD. He has done a great job for us over the years and he should have gone out on a high, not as a scapegoat.

[Whitey Grandad]

It's called the Premier League Handbook 2015/16 and freely available on t'web.

 

Is it possible with Forster that he's named not because we have to, but because the club thinks that there's some chance, however slim, that he might be ready for some kind of action before the end of January, which would be about 46 weeks after he sustained the injury that was reported at the time to keep him out "for up to a year"?

 

The only sources I've seen that say he won't play this season are an article in the Sun in August, you, and CBFry.

 

Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer something with a bit more substance.

 

My feeling about Forster, and that's all that it is, is that going on other players who have had similar injuries we should not expect him to be back and fully match-fit in less than a 12 to 18 months. He was injured last March so that would make his return close to the end of the season by my reckoning. The club would have the full details on his injury but these things are prone to setbacks.

[Whitey Grandad]

I guess that the management team feel that Kelvin can still do a job as back up. I still cant get my head around why Gazza hasn't been replaced. I'd love to see a decent young up and coming keeper here as no 2 but I guess that isn't going to happen any time soon. I feel sorry for KD. He has done a great job for us over the years and he should have gone out on a high, not as a scapegoat.

 

After last Saturday his confidence must have taken a big dent and I can't see that coming back for a long while.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

I guess that the management team feel that Kelvin can still do a job as back up. I still cant get my head around why Gazza hasn't been replaced. I'd love to see a decent young up and coming keeper here as no 2 but I guess that isn't going to happen any time soon. I feel sorry for KD. He has done a great job for us over the years and he should have gone out on a high, not as a scapegoat.

 

I don't feel that sorry for him - 37 years old and enjoying a Premier League wage means my sympathy is lacking

 

I think it was clear he needed replacing after last season but for whatever reason he wasn't - its an even bigger indictment on Gazanigga that he can't oust him in the pecking order so a half decent backup keeper was sorely needed and never acquired.

[Whitey Grandad]

I don't feel that sorry for him - 37 years old and enjoying a Premier League wage means my sympathy is lacking

 

I think it was clear he needed replacing after last season but for whatever reason he wasn't - its an even bigger indictment on Gazanigga that he can't oust him in the pecking order so a half decent backup keeper was sorely needed and never acquired.

 

I agree but there's not a lot that can be done about it now, we just have to work with what we've got. The club gambled and lost. If it's just last Saturday then it's not the end of the world but a longer injury and things could get very sticky.

[Saint Charlie]

It's called the Premier League Handbook 2015/16 and freely available on t'web.

 

Is it possible with Forster that he's named not because we have to, but because the club thinks that there's some chance, however slim, that he might be ready for some kind of action before the end of January, which would be about 46 weeks after he sustained the injury that was reported at the time to keep him out "for up to a year"?

 

The only sources I've seen that say he won't play this season are an article in the Sun in August, you, and CBFry.

 

Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer something with a bit more substance.

 

I do think FF will/may play this season, but only near the end. Its better, as with Jay Rod, not to expect anything though.

 

Anyone saying Stekelenburg is our no 2 keeper this season and Davis #3, Gazza #4 is mad because Forster isnt going to be available for ages and the club brought in Stek to replace FF for this season.

 

So our backup is, for most of the season, going to be **** as it was last year.

 

Thats all.

[VectisSaint]

We also needed to register FF to allow us to register non home grown players. Think there is still a chance he may be fit before end of year from what I've read.

[hutch]

We also needed to register FF to allow us to register non home grown players.

???

 

“Squad List” means the list of up to a maximum of 25 Players eligible to participate in League Matches during a Season of whom a maximum of 17 may not be Home Grown Players;

[Mr X]

who was responsible for giving gazzaniga a new contract? when he's deemed not even good enough to be above kelvin in the pecking order

[Tom & Gerry]

1) I don't expect footballers to be hero worshipped in this day and age of outrageous salaries but do think loyal servants who have spent a long time at a club and helped it get promoted 2 leagues deserve a little respect from so called supporters.

 

2) When a team is playing badly you need your keeper to be outstanding. On Saturday Kelvin was just on the level of the rest of the team. He was a little rusty as you would expect of any number 2 who doesn't play much, though he did make (in my opinion) one worldy save in the first half. It's a team game and you need others to cover for individual mistakes. Someone covered for Mane's mistake no one did for Kelvin's.

 

3) There is not much to choose between Kelvin and Gazza, Ronald went for experience. The difference is Gazza will improve, Kevin will not.

 

4)Those of you who can remember as far back as the summer will recall that there was much doom and gloom as we had to replace a number of key players. The previous summer was even worse. In spite of this the ream have played with a remarkable team spirit and togetherness. Ronald didn't wave a magic wand and this just happened, it was down to people like Kelvin to help create that spirit.

Give the guy a break.

[VectisSaint]

???

 

And if you don't have 8 home grown over 21s you lose one of the squad places. Until we signed Caulker I think we only had 7 including Forster and Kelv.

In the end it was a moot point, as we still have one spare place for an overseas player

Edited 20 October, 2015 by VectisSaint

[The9]

That's a pretty bold statement. Where did you get that from?

 

Premier League Handbook certainly had it as a rule back in 2012/13 when we got back into the division. Haven't looked at this year's (yet) so dunno if it's still in there, but it was definitely a regulation which led us to name a few interesting people who weren't out on season-long loan in the first season back in the Prem.

[Give it to Ron]

1)

 

3) There is not much to choose between Kelvin and Gazza, Ronald went for experience. The difference is Gazza will improve, Kevin will not.

 

4)Those of you who can remember as far back as the summer will recall that there was much doom and gloom as we had to replace a number of key players. The previous summer was even worse. In spite of this the ream have played with a remarkable team spirit and togetherness. Ronald didn't wave a magic wand and this just happened, it was down to people like Kelvin to help create that spirit.

Give the guy a break.

3) Problem I have is that I haven't seen any improvement in the whole time he has been here. He looks like he is going to brick it everytime the ball comes near him.

There was a game for the u21's he came out for everything and I thought wow this is it....every game since he is rooted to line and concedes really soft goals.

He doesn't command his area and although a decent shot stopper he doesn't seem to give any defence confidence in him.

I am absolutely baffled as are all the people I go with why we gave him another 4 years when there are really good up and coming keepers or even gone for Marshall/Heaton/Stockdale/Westwood all would have been better than what we have

 

4)Absolutely I remember Pardew saying that Kelvin was the best club captain he has ever seen - I have no issue with him being 3/4th choice

[the saint in winchester]

Hopefully next season our top 2 keepers will be Forster and Stekelenburg (no priority order intended, purely alphabetical). 3rd choice keeper TBA.

It's just this season we need to get through to make the above happen.

[Andy Durman]

Correction KD was our 2. After that wobbly, uncomfortable performance I think the writing is now on the wall.

 

Time for a new career as a goalkeeper trainer.

[sotonist]

Correction KD was our 2. After that wobbly, uncomfortable performance I think the writing is now on the wall.

 

Time for a new career as a goalkeeper trainer.

 

Do you think that is wise? The only thing Kelvin had going for him is his reflexes.

[VectisSaint]

1) I don't expect footballers to be hero worshipped in this day and age of outrageous salaries but do think loyal servants who have spent a long time at a club and helped it get promoted 2 leagues deserve a little respect from so called supporters.

 

2) When a team is playing badly you need your keeper to be outstanding. On Saturday Kelvin was just on the level of the rest of the team. He was a little rusty as you would expect of any number 2 who doesn't play much, though he did make (in my opinion) one worldy save in the first half. It's a team game and you need others to cover for individual mistakes. Someone covered for Mane's mistake no one did for Kelvin's.

1) Why? We live in a world of professional football, which is a business. We should not be sentimental about a keeper who was past his sell by date 3 years ago.

2) No he wasn't. He was on a level all of his own, and it was nowhere near the level required for a PL team. Plenty of players covered for Kelvin's mistakes, there were so many of them, primarily in the kicking department, but in the end the kick out that lead to their 2nd goal was a bridge too far.

[hutch]

And if you don't have 8 home grown over 21s you lose one of the squad places. Until we signed Caulker I think we only had 7 including Forster and Kelv.

In the end it was a moot point, as we still have one spare place for an overseas player

You don't need to have any home grown players in the squad. You can go through the season with 17 foreign players and as many under 21s you can sign. We didn't need to put Forster on the list in order to include foreign players.

 

The only reason to include Forster was so he can play.

[Whitey Grandad]

Stupid thing is, I'm not sure age has made Kelvin worse. Saturday was exactly the performance I'd always expect from him at this level. Good in the league below yes, but a liability at this level and it spread throughout the whole team. Such a vital position. Gazza might be a weak link and make a few errors, but I don't think the defence panics with him there in quite the same way, or not that I've seen.

 

Someone like Schwarzer on the bench would have been better.

 

Schwarzer in goal would have been better still.

[Tom & Gerry]

1) Why? We live in a world of professional football, which is a business. We should not be sentimental about a keeper who was past his sell by date 3 years ago.

2) No he wasn't. He was on a level all of his own, and it was nowhere near the level required for a PL team. Plenty of players covered for Kelvin's mistakes, there were so many of them, primarily in the kicking department, but in the end the kick out that lead to their 2nd goal was a bridge too far.

 

1)The day I see football as s business is the day I stkp going. Sentiment is a huge part of football and there is nothing wrong with respect.

2) In my opinion he was not that bad but perhaps the truth is somewhere in between. All goal keepers make mistakes and I think it would be difficult to find a good one prepared to put their career on hold and then come in cold after say 5 months and have the confidence of the defence.

[Tom & Gerry]

3) Problem I have is that I haven't seen any improvement in the whole time he has been here. He looks like he is going to brick it everytime the ball comes near him.

There was a game for the u21's he came out for everything and I thought wow this is it....every game since he is rooted to line and concedes really soft goals.

He doesn't command his area and although a decent shot stopper he doesn't seem to give any defence confidence in him.

I am absolutely baffled as are all the people I go with why we gave him another 4 years when there are really good up and coming keepers or even gone for Marshall/Heaton/Stockdale/Westwood all would have been better than what we have

 

4)Absolutely I remember Pardew saying that Kelvin was the best club captain he has ever seen - I have no issue with him being 3/4th choice

Ronald, Les and the England goalkeeping coach must see something in training that others don't. They must think those faults can be overcome. A lot of patience may bring it's reward.

[Pancake]

Fraser has posted a vid on Instagram of him training on box jumps. Knee looks good, nice flex in it, seems to able to jump high and hard which is a good sign too. Christmas maybe?

[Whitey Grandad]

Fraser has posted a vid on Instagram of him training on box jumps. Knee looks good, nice flex in it, seems to able to jump high and hard which is a good sign too. Christmas maybe?

 

We can hope. I'm happy with Steks in the meantime providing he's fit.

[VectisSaint]

Fraser has posted a vid on Instagram of him training on box jumps. Knee looks good, nice flex in it, seems to able to jump high and hard which is a good sign too. Christmas maybe?

It is looking hopeful, he had mentioned a week or so ago that things were going well. I wonder though whether he can kick? J-Rod was running a long time before last Christmas, I know he (Jay) got an infection but kicking is a whole other ball game (excuse the pun).

[Cosmic]

Kelvin. Move him on - ie encouraged to retire, moved to coaching the kids/some ambassadorial role, told he won't be in the squad any more. Not that difficult, moved on. Failing that given option to leave and find another club if he still thinks he can play. He is sh it at this level, but moving him on not that difficult. Good pro, will get work. Easy really. Easy.

 

Next. Moving Gazza on. Interesting that by me saying he is sh it for a team in the top half of the premier league makes him sh it for every other team in the world does it? You sure about that? Really sure? Moving Gazza on, not that difficult. Stick him on the transfer list, ring up some League One clubs or on the plane back to Argentina, tout him about a bit, loan him out. Not difficult. Easy in fact. Easy.

 

It's weird - judging by your tone, it seems like you can recognise the ignorance of what you're saying, yet you appear to be serious...? It's also funny how fans on here slaughter players for not showing any loyalty to the club and jumping ship for the money at the first chance they get; yet when the shoe is on the other foot, the same fans are more than happy to say to one of the players most responsible for getting us back to the Premiership: "You're a bit old and sh*t now and you're a waste of our money, can you just pack it in and leave?".

 

What good would 'moving him on' do anyway? He is no longer good enough to be attractive to a club that could afford to take him and pay his wages, so all that would be achieved is alienating and upsetting him (and with it the rest of the dressing room) and creating a load of bad publicity for the club.

[Cosmic]

On a separate point, I am the only one who thinks FF was a bit overrated last season? Good shot-stopper (as all keepers are these days) but, for a man of his stature, pretty awful in the air? If KD or PG had put in the performance that Forster did at White Hart Lane last year, it would have got a lot more attention on here. For the record, I am not writing FF off or saying he's cr*p - I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to improve the one obvious weakness to his game and become a really top keeper - just think the praise he got from the media last year was a bit OTT and was really a reflection of a very organised defence in front of him.

[OldNick]

1) Why? We live in a world of professional football, which is a business. We should not be sentimental about a keeper who was past his sell by date 3 years ago.

2) No he wasn't. He was on a level all of his own, and it was nowhere near the level required for a PL team. Plenty of players covered for Kelvin's mistakes, there were so many of them, primarily in the kicking department, but in the end the kick out that lead to their 2nd goal was a bridge too far.

It is amazing that KD kick was so poor that it took 2phases of play before the ball got to the forward to be one on one to score.

oh yes and not only the kick being poor, him diving and not standing up straight ( according to to one of the football geniuses on here) was his fault as well. No doubt his kicking and actually being on the pitch has caused the Syria refugee crisis.

 

Cosmics post above is absolutely spot on, Lallana jumping ship etc is probably correct, we would only take loyalty for granted.

No doubt KD is now not up to being a PL player but he has never not given us 100%

[Lallana's Left Peg]

No doubt KD is now not up to being a PL player but he has never not given us 100%

 

Just because a supporter may think Davis isn't up to it to be a Premier League keeper doesn't mean he or she isn't massively grateful for his loyalty and role he played in our rise up the league and continues to play as a part of the club.

 

Just because he was loyal it doesn't afford him a free pass to not be good enough to play in the Premier League. He is doing his best, no-one is questioning his effort, but he has never been good enough at this level and nothing that has happened in the past has changed that.

 

~£150m spent since we've been back in the Premier League and we've not signed a keeper who is better than Davis to be backup. That has and will cost us points. No blame apportioned at Davis, but more those managing the investment in the squad. If we're happy to spend £12m on a sub like Shane Long we should be happy to spend £3m on a decent backup keeper who doesn't dramatically change the mentality of the defence when he plays.

 

Davis has been great for Saints and I don't begrudge him his contract but it shouldn't mean he plays - not when we aspire to be at the level we are at and other areas of the team receive the investment they do. Keepers are unfortunate in that there isn't anyone to bail them out when they make a mistake so every mistake they make is usually highlighted and often leads to a goal, but for me that only serves as the reason why you don't take risks in that spot.

[Saint Charlie]

Last post is absolutely spot on.

[st alex]

It wouldn't have mattered who we had in goal on Saturday, if the midfield aren't challenging for the for ball in the middle of the park then it was only a matter of time until they scored. Kelvin didn't have a great game but was no worse than anyone else, he certainly played much much much better than Mane who made a whole host of mistakes.

 

To pretend that Forster doesn't exist because he's out injured is pretty pointless, he's still a Saints player and is likely to be on high wages, as is Steklenberg, to then say that we should have a third top quality goalkeeper waiting in the wings is fairly unrealistic. We've got a lot more squad depth this year than last season, and yes it would be nice to have 3 top goalkeepers at the club, but if it was a choice between, and it may well have been, added depth in central midfield (Romeu) or centre back (Caulker) or a spare goalkeeper they went with the former, deciding as did most on here in the summer that those were areas that needed more quality in depth.

 

I expect the club has a budget and sticks to that budget, maybe the owners don't want to just magic up £3-£5 million plus wages to hire someone just for back up who may never play.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

It wouldn't have mattered who we had in goal on Saturday, if the midfield aren't challenging for the for ball in the middle of the park then it was only a matter of time until they scored. Kelvin didn't have a great game but was no worse than anyone else, he certainly played much much much better than Mane who made a whole host of mistakes.

 

To pretend that Forster doesn't exist because he's out injured is pretty pointless, he's still a Saints player and is likely to be on high wages, as is Steklenberg, to then say that we should have a third top quality goalkeeper waiting in the wings is fairly unrealistic. We've got a lot more squad depth this year than last season, and yes it would be nice to have 3 top goalkeepers at the club, but if it was a choice between, and it may well have been, added depth in central midfield (Romeu) or centre back (Caulker) or a spare goalkeeper they went with the former, deciding as did most on here in the summer that those were areas that needed more quality in depth.

 

I expect the club has a budget and sticks to that budget, maybe the owners don't want to just magic up £3-£5 million plus wages to hire someone just for back up who may never play.

 

I agree that Saturday's disappointed was not just down to Davis, but I don't think anyone is saying we should have a third top quality keeper on the books but surely one who is better than Davis and Gazanigga is wise given our first choice is out until at least Christmas and maybe the rest of the season? We managed to spend £5m+ and wages on Juanmi who (based on team selections thus far this season) appears to be 7th choice for a role behind Pelle so talk of budgets for me is misplaced. We had money and we strengthened other parts of the team and we left ourselves exposed in the GK position.

[The9]

3) Problem I have is that I haven't seen any improvement in the whole time he has been here. He looks like he is going to brick it everytime the ball comes near him.

There was a game for the u21's he came out for everything and I thought wow this is it....every game since he is rooted to line and concedes really soft goals.

He doesn't command his area and although a decent shot stopper he doesn't seem to give any defence confidence in him.

I am absolutely baffled as are all the people I go with why we gave him another 4 years when there are really good up and coming keepers or even gone for Marshall/Heaton/Stockdale/Westwood all would have been better than what we have

 

He was MILES better at the end of last season than he was in his first team run in 2013, when he didn't look like he could save anything, never mind take a cross. As I say, I haven't seen him this season but there was obvious improvement.

[Window Cleaner]

He was MILES better at the end of last season than he was in his first team run in 2013, when he didn't look like he could save anything, never mind take a cross. As I say, I haven't seen him this season but there was obvious improvement.

 

In fact he had some pretty decent games at the end of last season. Going by Koeman's statements at that time those performances persuaded us to keep him on and not look elsewhere for a number 2/3 keeper.

[The9]

On a separate point, I am the only one who thinks FF was a bit overrated last season? Good shot-stopper (as all keepers are these days) but, for a man of his stature, pretty awful in the air? If KD or PG had put in the performance that Forster did at White Hart Lane last year, it would have got a lot more attention on here. For the record, I am not writing FF off or saying he's cr*p - I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to improve the one obvious weakness to his game and become a really top keeper - just think the praise he got from the media last year was a bit OTT and was really a reflection of a very organised defence in front of him.

 

You are definitely not the only one, fairly sure Crab Lungs agrees with you.

 

FWIW I think Stekelenburg is currently a better all round keeper than Forster, but if Forster can improve his weaknesses (mostly ball juggling, speed of thought and decision on balls outside the 6 yard box) he's got a presence and physical build that Stekelenburg just doesn't.