badgerx16 Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 Or 5% are disloyal and 7% say that they should not obey British Law What would you think the stats for these opinions would be for any other ethnic grouping ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2015 http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/news/john-pilger-the-root-causes-of-terrorism-and-what-we-can-do-about-it Some of you may remember John Pilger's reports from Indo China during the 60s and 70s. A pinko bleeding heart liberal maybe, but worth a read in these knee jerk times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 16 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2015 What would you think the stats for these opinions would be for any other ethnic grouping ? Id be interested to know what others think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 Not sure if this article has been posted on here yet, but an indepth background on Daesh, with a viewpoint on how to tackle them. It was written in September, so before the Paris massacre. http://www.newstatesman.com/world/middle-east/2015/09/islamist-zero-hour Definitely worth a read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 16 November, 2015 Share Posted 16 November, 2015 http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/news/john-pilger-the-root-causes-of-terrorism-and-what-we-can-do-about-it Some of you may remember John Pilger's reports from Indo China during the 60s and 70s. A pinko bleeding heart liberal maybe, but worth a read in these knee jerk times. Given Stop The War Coalition's knee jerk reaction, I think I'll give visiting their website a miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Not sure if this article has been posted on here yet, but an indepth background on Daesh, with a viewpoint on how to tackle them. It was written in September, so before the Paris massacre. http://www.newstatesman.com/world/middle-east/2015/09/islamist-zero-hour Definitely worth a read. Three long but very interesting articles and indeed well worth a read by everyone. It doesn't matter what you are - rabid right wing or a huggy fluffy leftist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Not sure if this article has been posted on here yet, but an indepth background on Daesh, with a viewpoint on how to tackle them. It was written in September, so before the Paris massacre. http://www.newstatesman.com/world/middle-east/2015/09/islamist-zero-hour Definitely worth a read. I did read most of that earlier today - I wanted to paste to get a word count. Excellent but was a mini book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 What exactly were the questions and how were they framed? They might not be high enough for you but in a stats world I would say that they were quite conclusive. We elect people to run a country with less votes. Nonsense. So if a survey found 47% of people say they would happily molest a child. SOG's response hey most won't so no need to worry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3321478/Our-policy-Islamic-State-Clueless-best-spineless-worst-writes-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3321335/Sick-taunts-Paris-mastermind-Jihadi-boasts-freely-crossing-Europe-s-border-mocks-police-clutches.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Wars in which many tens of thousands of Muslim soldiers died fighting on our side. 400,000 fought in WW1 alone http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/02/muslim-soldiers-first-world-war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Do Christians act on that today though? No is your answer. Muslims do. erm yes there are a number of unpleasant Christain groups in the world today difference is they are doing nasty **** in places like Africa so no one cares. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism Even the troubles in Ireland had strong religious undertones yet I never remember there being a big backlash against Irish people or Catholics in this country in the 70s-80s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Nonsense. So if a survey found 47% of people say they would happily molest a child. SOG's response hey most won't so no need to worry. If 10% of the country said they would happily molest a child that's 5 or 6 on every busy bus in Britain, or 3,000 at a SMS home match, where there are hundreds of children. But hey, 90% is, like, loads more so SOG would happily live in that world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 erm yes there are a number of unpleasant Christain groups in the world today difference is they are doing nasty **** in places like Africa so no one cares. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism Even the troubles in Ireland had strong religious undertones yet I never remember there being a big backlash against Irish people or Catholics in this country in the 70s-80s The first entry there is, well, The Gunpowder Plot. All the other "nasty ****" listed here can easily be matched by the actions of Boko Haram in one country alone. Nice try at achingly desperate moral equivalence but it doesn't really hang together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 erm yes there are a number of unpleasant Christain groups in the world today difference is they are doing nasty **** in places like Africa so no one cares. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism Even the troubles in Ireland had strong religious undertones yet I never remember there being a big backlash against Irish people or Catholics in this country in the 70s-80s You think that's the only significant difference? There was plenty of anti-Irish sentiment, but again, do you really not understand the difference? And what huge backlash has there been against Muslims? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 The first entry there is, well, The Gunpowder Plot. All the other "nasty ****" listed here can easily be matched by the actions of Boko Haram in one country alone. Nice try at achingly desperate moral equivalence but it doesn't really hang together. Not at all the post I replied to asked if Christians performed violence today just showing they do. At no point did I claim it was on the same level as Islamic extremism only that Christian extremism does exist and is violent today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coxford_lou Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 I did read most of that earlier today - I wanted to paste to get a word count. Excellent but was a mini book Yes, long but well written! And long is what we need - long, complex, nuanced, dedicated solutions, that may play out over many years. I'm tired of reading opinion pieces from the left (that always start with western self blame) and the right (that lack any level of humanitarianism). A lot of convenient, pithy, holier than thou, black and white answers, that solve nothing beyond making those that write them feel better for a moment. Long, nuanced, with a bias towards worldwide civilian welfare, is what this problem needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Not at all the post I replied to asked if Christians performed violence today just showing they do. At no point did I claim it was on the same level as Islamic extremism only that Christian extremism does exist and is violent today. Isn't that a really really obvious point to make though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Billy Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 A good job you lot on here aren't in control of trying to sort this problem out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 A good job you lot on here aren't in control of trying to sort this problem out. When you say "you lot on here" what do you mean? You do realise there has been an incredibly diverse number of views regarding this issue and actually no consensus right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Not sure what purpose Muslims vs Christians comparisons serve. It is a fools errand, though a few simpletons on here seem up for the task. If anyone even wanted to isolate the independent role of religion, they would have to control for the vast range of historical, geopolitical and socioeconomic factors that might equally account for fundamentalism and violence in parts of the Muslim world. Good luck with that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Billy Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 When you say "you lot on here" what do you mean? You do realise there has been an incredibly diverse number of views regarding this issue and actually no consensus right? The same cyber warriors who sort out all of footballs woes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 17 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Nonsense. So if a survey found 47% of people say they would happily molest a child. SOG's response hey most won't so no need to worry. You really don't get it do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 17 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2015 If 10% of the country said they would happily molest a child that's 5 or 6 on every busy bus in Britain, or 3,000 at a SMS home match, where there are hundreds of children. But hey, 90% is, like, loads more so SOG would happily live in that world. You know better than that surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 17 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Given Stop The War Coalition's knee jerk reaction, I think I'll give visiting their website a miss. Not a fan of John Pilger then Lou? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 You know better than that surely? I think the point being made is that although there is a minority, it is a SIGNIFICANT minority. If 90% of people were declared free of AIDs, don't you think that most people would be worried by the fact that 1 in 10 were carriers and the sale of johnnies would shoot through the roof??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 17 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2015 It is still a very small minority. The vast majority in a small poll (1000 out of 1.6 billion) came out against the attacks. We know that the terrorists have some sympathy amongst other Muslims so the chance of it being 100% was zilch. The figures in support of living by our rules were even higher but have been completely ignored. Why? Because some seem us to believe that all Muslims post a threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 17 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Thing is we already have thousands of islamic militants in France, we do not need migrants to make any terrorist activity happen. When I came here 30 years ago we had plenty of Muslims, they didn't cause any trouble or make themselves very obvious, all pretty regular people.. Now when you go to the shops you have stacks of veiled women with 15 kids each, the problem is coming from within not without because we have no work for this population, nor do many of them seek it and the society is festering . A few miles up the road from me you will find plenty of Christian women with 15 kids. In fact the woman over the road in a council house has 6 with another on the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 17 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2015 The same poll, of 1000 people by COMRES, shows 95% show a loyalty to Britain, and 93% say that Muslims should always obey British law. Worth reposting for those using stats to try and prove that we are at risk from all Muslims in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Worth reposting for those using stats to try and prove that we are at risk from all Muslims in this country. How many people have said that? Maybe one poster? And absolutely no one was trying to use stats to prove that all Muslims are a threat. Not a single poster. Nice of you to join another crusade by pointing out the flipping obvious. Thanks for enlightening us with brand new information like "not all Muslims living in Britain are a threat to the West." Who knew! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Kint Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Worth reposting for those using stats to try and prove that we are at risk from all Muslims in this country. I have no idea what the loyalty stat shows. There have been many, many instances of people doing horrific things "for their country" so I don't see any relevance to it at all. The 93% stat is more encouraging I agree. I would actually be prepared to ignore the 27% statistic about British Muslims having 'sympathy' with the terrorist attack on CH (68% disagreed with that and the rest either refused to answer or weren't sure) as 'sympathy' feels like a very broad word to use and could cover any number of emotions. But 11% think organisations that display pictures of the Prophet DESERVE to be attacked. That is very clear cut. I have never, and would never, make stupid statements like 'all Muslims pose a threat', as that is clearly nonsense, but 11% is a fairly big minority in my opinion, particularly if you were prepared to extrapolate it to real numbers. If you don't agree it's a worryingly large percentage then fair enough, but I think most people would disagree with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webby Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 What's this I hear about the US signing a deal to sell $1.3bn worth of arms to Saudi Arabia!! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34838937 sorry if it's been mentioned already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 What's this I hear about the US signing a deal to sell $1.3bn worth of arms to Saudi Arabia!! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34838937 sorry if it's been mentioned already. Don't really see that as being especially relevant. The Saudis have been buying arms from the west for decades, I'm not aware of it being a particular bone of contention. Every country has an armed force of some description, they have to buy weapons from somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 17 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2015 I am not ignoring any statists. But you do have to take things in context. Depending on what question you ask you can get a certain response. Muslims are deeply offended by any depiction of the Prophet. They will understand the anger against Charlie Hebdo by other Muslims. They may well have "sympathy" for the attack based on the fact that it is deeply offensive. If the question had been asked do you condone the killings at Charlie Hebdo due to the depiction of the Prophet, you might have got a different response. You might not also but we shall never know. I was accused of spinning the figures which is interesting because I just quoted the figures from the survey. I have found the article from the BBC and will reproduce it in full for C B Fry's benefit. If I am spinning anything then so is the BBC so I am in good company. 1000 Muslims were surveyed across Britain from 26th January to 20th February for BBC Radio 4 "The majority of British Muslims oppose violence against people who publish images depicting the Prophet Muhammad, a poll for the BBC suggests. The survey also indicates most have no sympathy with those who want to fight against western interests. But 27% of the 1000 Muslims polled by ComRes said they had some sympathy for the motives behind the \paris attacks. Almost 80% said they had found it deeply offensive when images depicting the Prophet were published. 95% feel a loyalty to Britian. 93% say they should obey British laws. 46% feel prejudice against Islam makes it difficult being a Muslim in Britain. 78% are offended when images of the Prophet Muhammad are published. 11% feel sympathy for people who want to fight against western interests. Asked if acts of violence against those who publish images of the Prophet Muhhammad can "never be justified" 68% agreed that such violence was never justifiable. But 24% disagreed with the statement while the rest replied "don't know" or refused to answer. The poll suggests that 32% of British Muslims were not surprised by Januarys attacks on the magazine and a kosher supermarket. The poll also suggests that almost half of Brit Muslims belive they face discrimination because of their faith and that Britain is becoming less tolerant while the same % feel prejudice against Islam makes it difficult being a Muslim in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 17 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Cont.... some 35% said they felt most British people did not trust Muslims and a fifth said they thought Western liberal; society could never be compatible with Islam. Of those polled 95% felt a loyalty to Britain while 93% believed that Muslims in Britain should always obey British laws. Nearly 20% of Muslim women questioned said they felt unsafe in Britain compared with 10% of men (there is that 10% again Mr Fry!). So then, when it comes to spinning figures you might like to ask the poster who only put two stats from the survey and in the negative form in his initial post what his aim was instead of having a pop at me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 17 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2015 How many people have said that? Maybe one poster? And absolutely no one was trying to use stats to prove that all Muslims are a threat. Not a single poster. Nice of you to join another crusade by pointing out the flipping obvious. Thanks for enlightening us with brand new information like "not all Muslims living in Britain are a threat to the West." Who knew! You really are like a broken record Hypo. Once again you go off on one and completely miss the point. Oh and I am still waiting for your apology over the accusation of making something up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 You really are like a broken record Hypo. Once again you go off on one and completely miss the point. Oh and I am still waiting for your apology over the accusation of making something up. You've filled this thread up with posts of made up stuff, only you know why you do it I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 (edited) You really are like a broken record Hypo. Once again you go off on one and completely miss the point. Oh and I am still waiting for your apology over the accusation of making something up. Why would I apologise? You've done it in two threads now. Show me one post where someone has used stats to show that all Muslims are a threat? Show me where someone has suggested we should kill all Muslims? Then I will apologise. Until then how about you stop making stuff up, it certainly doesn't help your argument. Edited 17 November, 2015 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Cont.... some 35% said they felt most British people did not trust Muslims and a fifth said they thought Western liberal; society could never be compatible with Islam. Of those polled 95% felt a loyalty to Britain while 93% believed that Muslims in Britain should always obey British laws. Nearly 20% of Muslim women questioned said they felt unsafe in Britain compared with 10% of men (there is that 10% again Mr Fry!). So then, when it comes to spinning figures you might like to ask the poster who only put two stats from the survey and in the negative form in his initial post what his aim was instead of having a pop at me. "Acts of violence against those who publish images of the Prophet Mohammad can never be justified" Over 30% didn't agree with that statement. And you don't think that should be a genuine cause for concern? Bonkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 17 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2015 You've filled this thread up with posts of made up stuff, only you know why you do it I guess. Really, like what exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 You've filled this thread up with posts of made up stuff, only you know why you do it I guess. Indeed. There are numerous examples just in this thread. I've pointed just one example out above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 17 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Why would I apologise? You've done it in two threads now. Show me one post where someone has used stats to show that all Muslims are a threat and then I will apologise. I have explained that post already. I have never said that someone has used stats to show all Muslims are a threat. I have used stats to show that all Muslims are not a threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Really, like what exactly? I can't be bothered to trawl back and find your exact quote but for starters: "posters on here are saying we should kill all Muslims" "posters on here are using stats to try to say that all Muslims are a threat. " Both lies and you have failed to find a single example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 17 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Indeed. There are numerous examples just in this thread. I've pointed just one example out above. If there are so many, knock yourself out. Lets have them if you really have nothing better to offer the discussion than yet another pointless point scoring post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 If there are so many, knock yourself out. Lets have them if you really have nothing better to offer the discussion than yet another pointless point scoring post. See above. You are the one writing blatant untruths and then whining that no one else has anything to offer in this thread. How about stop writing lies and stick to talking about the issues and then it won't be so difficult for others to do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 I thought all this dredging up other threads and arguing in the gutter with the riff raff was beneath you? I thought it was disrespectful to those who died in Paris and an insult to their memory? You hypocrite. Are you and CB officially an 'item' now? For your information, I did think this kind of stuff to be in bad taste in the immediate aftermath of Friday's terrible events. I'm told however that to allow terror to alter ones behaviour is - in a sense - allowing 'them' to win. So you can rest assured that normal activities on here are now resumed you sad little man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 17 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2015 I can't be bothered to trawl back and find your exact quote but for starters: "posters on here are saying we should kill all Muslims" "posters on here are using stats to try to say that all Muslims are a threat. " Both lies and you have failed to find a single example. One poster in particular said that Muslims (he didn't specify terrorists so I assume he means all of them) are a threat because of what is written in the Koran. Another presented figures in a way that tried to shown Muslims in a particular light. Help me find the quote about killing all Muslims and I will give you the context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Worth reposting for those using stats to try and prove that we are at risk from all Muslims in this country. Who said that? Fact is there are thousands of European men fighting for ISIS, and just like the mass grooming scandals we've seen (which haven't been confined to the UK), something has undoubtedly gone horribly wrong within SOME Islamic communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 17 November, 2015 Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Are you and CB officially an 'item' now? For your information, I did think this kind of stuff to be in bad taste in the immediate aftermath of Friday's terrible events. I'm told however that to allow terror to alter ones behaviour is - in a sense - allowing 'them' to win. So you can rest assured that normal activities on here are now resumed you sad little man. I'm glad that you're the moral arbiter on this forum. Thank goodness that we can take our cues from you. So what was the cutoff point? Friday it was disgusting and disrespectful but Sunday you can return to your grandstanding and pomposity with impunity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 17 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2015 See above. You are the one writing blatant untruths and then whining that no one else has anything to offer in this thread. How about stop writing lies and stick to talking about the issues and then it won't be so difficult for others to do the same. Okay you are very good at making accusations. Where are the blatant untruths and lies please? As for the "others" you mean you and your buddies CB Fry and Sour Mash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 17 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2015 Who said that? Fact is there are thousands of European men fighting for ISIS, and just like the mass grooming scandals we've seen (which haven't been confined to the UK), something has undoubtedly gone horribly wrong within SOME Islamic communities. I have already provided that response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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