Terrorist Attacks - WARNING: CONTAINS DISTRESSING IMAGES

[hypochondriac]

I read on the Gay thread that Britain was a tolerant country. You wouldn't think so reading some of the posts here today.

 

You also made up stuff on that thread too.

[sussexsaint]

for Weston Saint

 

 

this one ties in with your post. (you have probably seen it)

 

 

 

 

25% !!!!!!

[hypochondriac]

But it is not bonkers is it? Christians have been killing each other for centuries and are still doing it as I type. To try and make out that Christians are somehow a more peaceful folk than Islamists just flies in the face of history and all available evidence.

 

Again you're just making stuff up. We aren't talking about hundreds of years ago, we are talking about now. Here and now Islam has a much bigger problem with violence than any other religion.

[sadoldgit]

Thought this was a decent read -as well as shining light on the cultural and ideological attractions of jihadism.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/15/terrorists-isis

 

Very interesting and very worrying. And it does highlight that the problem goes much further than the interpretation of a few lines from their holy book.

[Orange]

But it is not bonkers is it? Christians have been killing each other for centuries and are still doing it as I type. To try and make out that Christians are somehow a more peaceful folk than Islamists just flies in the face of history and all available evidence.

 

The ugly truth is, it's easier for Muslims to interpret the Koran in a violent way. For a start what are IS doing that Muhammad did not a)do himself b)oversee as a warlord. On the other hand whilst violence has been carried out in the name of Christianity granted, Jesus was a long haired hippy. Muhammad butchered those who did not conform to him, he was a militant. It is therefore not unsurprising that some can interpret Islam, through the life of Muhammad, verses in the Koran, Sharia law itself etc, in such a way which justifies these atrocities, and even makes them feel closer to the prophet by carrying out these acts. IS are essentially trying to create an Islamic Caliphate which has been an ideal of the religion since its creation. That's another difference, Islam is a theocratic religion believing governance is the word of God- through Sharia. Christianity and other religions don't have this in the same way. It's probably a reason why SOME Muslims are worse at integrating, because some believe in their own separate law system. I.S is not the only interpretation of Islam, but it certainly is one. You can't have it both ways- cherry picking peaceful verses of the Koran and saying 'that's Islam', and then when people cherry pick the 'bad' parts, saying 'that's not Islam'. I cannot believe the constant denial of people on my Facebook saying 'it has nothing to do with Islam' , 'This is nothing to do with religion' etc etc.

[sadoldgit]

Again you're just making stuff up. We aren't talking about hundreds of years ago, we are talking about now. Here and now Islam has a much bigger problem with violence than any other religion.

 

What am I making up? We are talking about religions and what those religions supposedly preach, It has been said on this thread that Muslims are a threat because part of their Holy Book says that they must kill non believers. To say that Muslims are more dangerous than any other religions is a nonsense. What is happening now is down to a number of extremist factions. That is not all of Islam just as the "Troubles" in Northern Island was all Christians. If what you say is true why do we have so many peaceful Muslim communities in the West, why aren't they all on the streets killing and maiming. We are talking about a small % of people who are using a religion as a front.

[hypochondriac]

What am I making up? We are talking about religions and what those religions supposedly preach, It has been said on this thread that Muslims are a threat because part of their Holy Book says that they must kill non believers. To say that Muslims are more dangerous than any other religions is a nonsense. What is happening now is down to a number of extremist factions. That is not all of Islam just as the "Troubles" in Northern Island was all Christians. If what you say is true why do we have so many peaceful Muslim communities in the West, why aren't they all on the streets killing and maiming. We are talking about a small % of people who are using a religion as a front.

 

No one has said that Christians are a more peace loving folk historically- you just invented that as you like to do. We are talking about the present time not peering into history where there is no doubt that Christianity has had its own share of atrocities committed in its name. It's an inarguable fact that Islam has a greater violence problem now than any other world religion.

Edited 16 November, 2015 by hypochondriac

[sadoldgit]

The ugly truth is, it's easier for Muslims to interpret the Koran in a violent way. For a start what are IS doing that Muhammad did not a)do himself b)oversee as a warlord. On the other hand whilst violence has been carried out in the name of Christianity granted, Jesus was a long haired hippy. Muhammad butchered those who did not conform to him, he was a militant. It is therefore not unsurprising that some can interpret Islam, through the life of Muhammad, verses in the Koran, Sharia law itself etc, in such a way which justifies these atrocities, and even makes them feel closer to the prophet by carrying out these acts. IS are essentially trying to create an Islamic Caliphate which has been an ideal of the religion since its creation. That's another difference, Islam is a theocratic religion believing governance is the word of God- through Sharia. Christianity and other religions don't have this in the same way. It's probably a reason why SOME Muslims are worse at integrating, because some believe in their own separate law system. I.S is not the only interpretation of Islam, but it certainly is one. You can't have it both ways- cherry picking peaceful verses of the Koran and saying 'that's Islam', and then when people cherry pick the 'bad' parts, saying 'that's not Islam'. I cannot believe the constant denial of people on my Facebook saying 'it has nothing to do with Islam' , 'This is nothing to do with religion' etc etc.

 

Isnt that most followers of Islam chose to live peaceful lives though? Just because some factions chose to interpret something in one way (and they are clearly in the minority) doesn't mean to say that the whole religion and ideology is tainted. It just isn't true to say that Islam is more violent than Christianity. We have only just worn poppies in remembrance of some of the most barbaric wars in history perpetrated in the main by people who say they are Christians.

[sadoldgit]

No one has said that Christians are a more peace loving folk historically- you just invented that as you like to do. We are talking about the present time not peering into history where there is no doubt that Christianity has had its own share of atrocities committed in its name. It's an I arguable fact that Islam has a greater violence problem now than any other world religion.

 

The trouble is Hypo that you get yourself worked up and misunderstand what is being said.

[hypochondriac]

The trouble is Hypo that you get yourself worked up and misunderstand what is being said.

 

there aren't enough emoticons in the world for that. Sorry but once again you have made up stuff and made yourself look silly as you did on the last thread. You would have thought you had learnt by now. No one has denied that Christianity has had a violence problem in the past. Loads of people said that Islam has a violence problem now. You either didn't understand that or chose to ignore it.

[Jimmy_D]

there aren't enough emoticons in the world for that. Sorry but once again you have made up stuff and made yourself look silly as you did on the last thread. You would have thought you had learnt by now. No one has denied that Christianity has had a violence problem in the past. Loads of people said that Islam has a violence problem now. You either didn't understand that or chose to ignore it.

 

So when are you going to stop your ad hominem arguments against SOG and actually address his quite valid point that the vast VAST majority of Muslims are peaceful, normal people that don't deserve to be viewed with any suspicion or malice whatsoever?

[sadoldgit]

I haven't made up stuff and I haven't made myself look silly. It is just how you like to try and score points. If you took off your point scoring blinkers are read what has been said perhaps you would understand a bit more. Both religions have holy books which have been interpreted in various ways over the centuries. We were told here earlier that Muslims are a threat because their holy book tells them to kill the Infidel. The vast majority of Muslims seem either not to interpret their book in that way or they are just rubbish Muslims because out of the 1.6 billion of them, most of them do not kill non believers. It is simplistic in the extreme to say that this is a Muslim problem. It is a global problem, not helped because of the reliance of the West on oil from the Middle East. There I have said it. This is not just about religion. This is not happening because one religion is more bloodythirsty than another.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Do Christians act on that today though? No is your answer. Muslims do.

 

[sadoldgit]

So when are you going to stop your ad hominem arguments against SOG and actually address his quite valid point that the vast VAST majority of Muslims are peaceful, normal people that don't deserve to be viewed with any suspicion or malice whatsoever?

 

Indeed!

 

I have had several messages on Facebook recently asking me to support the banning of the Burka because apparently it is a security risk? Is it really anymore a risk than hoodies. balaclavas, raincoats? I might want it banned because it is a hideous fashion but really, isn't this just another way of saying we don't like these people, they are different. I don't know how many people wearing burkas have carried out terrorist acts in the west but I am willing to suggest that it isn't many.

[Saint-Armstrong]

@AFP: #BREAKING US approves $1.29bn sale of bombs to Saudi Arabia

[sadoldgit]

You also made up stuff on that thread too.

 

What did I make up mate? I confused one post from you with a post made by someone else. I did not make it up. By the way, I apologised for the error to you twice but you chose not to accept my apology for my mistake.

[sadoldgit]

 

Yep, apparently God was on the side of the Nazis too!

[sadoldgit]

Government minister on the news just now. Islamic State has nothing to do with Islam and it is not a state. There you go then, this from over very own Government.

[Sour Mash]

If you have read this thread you will see that I am not making this up. Apparently all Muslims must kill the Infidels, it is written in their book! For a start that it just an interpretation that has been used by extreme factions. Secondly go and look in the Bible and you can find plenty of examples of extremism. Finally, if this was the case, this country would be in a state of civil war. Amazingly, most Muslims here don't seem to want to kill us and go about peaceful lives every day.

You still haven't shown one single post that says that every muslim wants to kill us. You haven't been able to show us these posts because its something you've made up. Why you do that, only you know I guess.

[hypochondriac]

So when are you going to stop your ad hominem arguments against SOG and actually address his quite valid point that the vast VAST majority of Muslims are peaceful, normal people that don't deserve to be viewed with any suspicion or malice whatsoever?

 

Why on earth would I need to address something I have never ever denied?

[hypochondriac]

What did I make up mate? I confused one post from you with a post made by someone else. I did not make it up. By the way, I apologised for the error to you twice but you chose not to accept my apology for my mistake.

 

I'm not going over this again after this buy you claimed that people were suggesting we put all gay people in ghettos and we're calling people nazis when no one ever said that. That was just one example, they were an awful lot on there.

[hypochondriac]

You still haven't shown one single post that says that every muslim wants to kill us. You haven't been able to show us these posts because its something you've made up. Why you do that, only you know I guess.

 

He does it all the time. It's a bit strange.

[Sour Mash]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2944946/Thousands-British-Muslims-protest-against-Charlie-Hebdo-magazine-publishing-cartoons-Prophet-Mohammed.html

 

Yes, Islam is peaceful until the fanatics move in, and you can say exactly the same for every religion under the sun, including Christianity. And that is the point. We are talking about extremists here, not the small minority who use religion for their own agenda.

Can you just confirm if those referenced in the above link are fanatics or peaceful muslims in your view?

[CB Fry]

Was Christianity the driving force of Hitler and the Nazis? They were acting on the instructions of the Bible and the movement was defined by its Christian beliefs? That is how history judge the Nazis and how it's leadership defined themselves at the time? As, above all else, a fundemental religious mission?

 

You sure about that?

[Guan 2.0]

Indeed, but apparently they are all plotting to kill us. Seriously, WTF?.

 

Having read posts 320 + 326, i don't see any evidence that anyone has said that "they are all plotting to kill us". What he does say is that he disagrees with your view that Christianity is just as bloody as Islam (I'd disagree with Griffo, certainly in terms of historical campaigns). But you should probably stop saying that someone has said something that they haven't.

[Window Cleaner]

Yep, apparently God was on the side of the Nazis too!

 

Bob Dylan even wrote a ditty about it.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Was Christianity the driving force of Hitler and the Nazis? They were acting on the instructions of the Bible and the movement was defined by its Christian beliefs? That is how history judge the Nazis and how it's leadership defined themselves at the time? As, above all else, a fundemental religious mission?

 

You sure about that?

 

It's just a picture you know.

 

There's really no need for your constant grandstanding on here ...

[sadoldgit]

I would say that mainstream Muslim views on women and gays is pretty backward , and the loony fringe of the religion ,medieval .

 

The beheading carried out by exremists is also medieval and backward. It wasn't uncommon for GIs to cut off the ears of the dead VC and hang them around their necks. They also cut off breasts from Vietnamese women. That also was medieval and backward. Perhaps it has more to do with man's own basic instincts rather than an allegiance to any religion?

[sadoldgit]

No, but a hell of a lot of them hold views similar. How can they not when it is written in their book?

 

I said that Christianity was no more or less a violent religion than Islam and was told I was bonkers because of what is written in their Holy Book. Apparently those who follow Islam are supposed to kill all of us non believers.

[sadoldgit]

Having read posts 320 + 326, i don't see any evidence that anyone has said that "they are all plotting to kill us". What he does say is that he disagrees with your view that Christianity is just as bloody as Islam (I'd disagree with Griffo, certainly in terms of historical campaigns). But you should probably stop saying that someone has said something that they haven't.

 

But it is written in their Holy Book and if they follow that book religiously does it not follow that they all pose a threat? That seems to be his point.

[whelk]

Was Christianity the driving force of Hitler and the Nazis? They were acting on the instructions of the Bible and the movement was defined by its Christian beliefs? That is how history judge the Nazis and how it's leadership defined themselves at the time? As, above all else, a fundemental religious mission?

 

You sure about that?

 

Yeah no end of guff like this from all the apologists. We are just as bad as them cos we had the nazis who were like Christian yeah.

[sadoldgit]

Yeah no end of guff like this from all the apologists. We are just as bad as them cos we had the nazis who were like Christian yeah.

 

Where is anyone apologising for the action of anyone carrying our terrorist attacks?

[whelk]

I said that Christianity was no more or less a violent religion than Islam and was told I was bonkers because of what is written in their Holy Book. Apparently those who follow Islam are supposed to kill all of us non believers.

 

Do you like being contrary? Rapidly thinking your brain is rather runny

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Yeah no end of guff like this from all the apologists. We are just as bad as them cos we had the nazis who were like Christian yeah.

 

But if it says so on your belt buckle then it must be true surely?

[Whitey Grandad]

 

God wins?

[Window Cleaner]

Yeah no end of guff like this from all the apologists. We are just as bad as them cos we had the nazis who were like Christian yeah.

 

Nazism had some very strange and complex roots,Arisophy in the main IIRC, bit of that, bit of occult even a bit of paganism perhaps.

[whelk]

Where is anyone apologising for the action of anyone carrying our terrorist attacks?

 

Standard fayre - we the liberals must enlighten and keen to praise a non establishment religion rather than a largely peaceful religion.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

God wins?

 

and Jesus wept ...

[whelk]

I don't consider myself right wing in the slightest and clear many many Muslims are peaceful. Also clear many are very much not

[Guan 2.0]

But it is written in their Holy Book and if they follow that book religiously does it not follow that they all pose a threat? That seems to be his point.

 

His point was refuting a statement you said on past transgressions of both Christianity and Islam (I happen to agree you you on this point). However, you then claimed he made an argument which he didn't. If you can't back it up with a quote, and his words remain unedited, then your claim is no good.

[sadoldgit]

Having read posts 320 + 326, i don't see any evidence that anyone has said that "they are all plotting to kill us". What he does say is that he disagrees with your view that Christianity is just as bloody as Islam (I'd disagree with Griffo, certainly in terms of historical campaigns). But you should probably stop saying that someone has said something that they haven't.

 

For clarification Guan (and Hypo although I know you wont be interested) it was a tongue in cheek response to what had gone before. Someone said that there were 6 million Muslims living in France and it was a remark aimed at what had gone before in terms of what was said about the Koran and their supposed religious beliefs. Perhaps I should have added a smiley face! In fact I don't think I even referred to Griffo but I am sure Hypo will find evidence if I did!

Edited 16 November, 2015 by sadoldgit

[Verbal]

SOG, what you're arguing against is not so much a reasoned position but a feeling of rage. You're trying to make a finely drawn distinctions when the mood is one of "the religion itself is responsible". It's a hopeless argument but an understandable one, given the events in Paris, even if one or two of those saying this weren't already ludicrously addicted to knee-jerking.

 

Here's another distinction that won't be appreciated by everyone, probably including you. The Koran is many things, but among them it is certainly a code of war. This is not surprising given the conditions from which it emerged. However, that code is not a lot different to a modern and relatively progressive code. It was applied by brilliant military tacticians like Saladin, who captured Jerusalem from the Crusaders in 1187 but who allowed Christian and Jewish practices and people to continue in the city under his protection.

 

If Saladin were around today his views and actions would result in his beheading as an apostate by the nihilists in IS - if ever they had the wit to capture him.

 

When they reach for justification for their genocidal killings, IS have little use for the Koran, with its inconvenient caveats about mercy, but for obscure and bloodthirsty Hadiths. But it doesn't really matter what document they claim to be acting on: they are a self-serving, blindly violent death cult. They exist to kill, to revel in the killing, and to profit from it. There isn't a lot more to them than that. The justifications they claim are worthless and idiotic, and discredit a horrified Muslim majority.

[sadoldgit]

God wins?

 

I think it means God Is With Us

[Jimmy_D]

Why on earth would I need to address something I have never ever denied?

 

"Here and now Islam has a much bigger problem with violence than any other religion." could certainly have been seen to imply otherwise.

 

In any case, I think SOG took that to be aimed at all Muslims, which from this it appears he maybe shouldn't have done, and also that you could have made your point a bit better.

 

You're still choosing to use ad hominem attacks rather than clarify your point.

 

Personally, my view is that it's a twisted view of Islam that's being used to 'justify' these attacks by a tiny minority of extremists. If it wasn't Islam, it would be something else.

 

Islam as a religion is a victim here, not the cause.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Further proof, if any were needed, that no ''Christian'' gentlemen would never sink so low as murder innocents on the streets of Paris ...

 

[Sour Mash]

"Here and now Islam has a much bigger problem with violence than any other religion." could certainly have been seen to imply otherwise.

 

In any case, I think SOG took that to be aimed at all Muslims, which from this it appears he maybe shouldn't have done, and also that you could have made your point a bit better.

 

You're still choosing to use ad hominem attacks rather than clarify your point.

 

Personally, my view is that it's a twisted view of Islam that's being used to 'justify' these attacks by a tiny minority of extremists. If it wasn't Islam, it would be something else.

 

Islam as a religion is a victim here, not the cause.

Just to clarify, you're saying you don't think Islam has more of a problem than any other religion right now?

 

And why else exactly would say an attack such as Friday's in Paris, be undertaken if it wasn't in the name of Islam?

[Batman]

im not sure what the point is in pointing out that christians in the dark ages were a bunch of savages?

[Orange]

Isnt that most followers of Islam chose to live peaceful lives though? Just because some factions chose to interpret something in one way (and they are clearly in the minority) doesn't mean to say that the whole religion and ideology is tainted. It just isn't true to say that Islam is more violent than Christianity. We have only just worn poppies in remembrance of some of the most barbaric wars in history perpetrated in the main by people who say they are Christians.

 

I'm not saying all Muslims are violent, but i'm saying there is a considerable element within the Koran, the history of the expansion of the religion, its ideal in a caliphate etc, which is open to violent interpretation. Again I ask, what are I.S doing that Muhammad did not do/oversee? Surely the person who created the religion and is the divine prophet, is a fair way of scrutinising a religion? Yes it might be a minority- but that doesn't get away from the fact there are thousands of European Muslims fighting for IS, they have support and funding from wealthy Islamic backers etc. Although many British muslims are not carrying out violence and would not wish it on people; SOME could have done more about foreign imams preaching hate against the west in mosques, they could not make the situation worse by singing petitions to ban drawings of Muhammad etc.

[aintforever]

Further proof, if any were needed, that no ''Christian'' gentlemen would never sink so low as murder innocents on the streets of Paris ...

 

 

To be fair, the age of that picture probably illustrates quite well how backward Islam is. Christians were doing the same **** - but centuries ago.

 

Forcing women to cover up - yep, that used to be normal here ages ago as well.

Edited 16 November, 2015 by aintforever

[benjii]

Again I ask, what are I.S doing that Muhammad did not do/oversee?.

 

Twitter?