The9 Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 I would suggest the number doing that is far higher. Besides, he didn't say those who were directly involved in the execution of terrorism did he? Apologies if he did but I took it to encompass all those who support it either through their actions or their views. I would guess that number is a large amount. Possibly not vast though but that's a matter on opinion as vast isn't really quantifiable. He said "a number hold similar views... hence the sheer volume of terrorist attacks". My points are that 1) I don't think there have been that many attacks 2) it doesn't take that many people to conduct them and 3) either way they're a tiny proportion of the people they claim to share a religion with, so associating extremist activity with ALL people who share a couple of similar traits is ridiculous nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 It's your third point I take issue with. It's true that that would be ridiculous, but no one has done that as far as I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 Well, no, that's what I was talking about in the first place, what's happened is you've misinterpreted it. No, what happened is you tried to change what you'd said after your first post was clearly ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 It's your third point I take issue with. It's true that that would be ridiculous, but no one has done that as far as I can tell. He's suggesting that we stop the flow of muslim immigration into Europe. It you're going to achieve that, how would that be feasible without putting everyone under the same umbrella? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 He said "a number hold similar views... hence the sheer volume of terrorist attacks". My points are that 1) I don't think there have been that many attacks 2) it doesn't take that many people to conduct them and 3) either way they're a tiny proportion of the people they claim to share a religion with, so associating extremist activity with ALL people who share a couple of similar traits is ridiculous nonsense. You don't think there have been "that many attacks" Give us a shout when you think there's been quite a few won't you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 He's suggesting that we stop the flow of muslim immigration into Europe. It you're going to achieve that, how would that be feasible without putting everyone under the same umbrella? Why is it "putting everyone under the same umbrella", because you stop the flow of immigration that has brought in terrorists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 He's suggesting that we stop the flow of muslim immigration into Europe. It you're going to achieve that, how would that be feasible without putting everyone under the same umbrella? I definitely think there should be more stringent checks at the border. If we have to let them in due to the crisis as they have nowhere else to go then as unpalatable as it is to some, they should be held somewhere securely whilst they are processed properly. It does appear that security across borders has been very lax and terrorists have been able to take advantage of this. It's a very difficult situation and there are no easy answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 You don't think there have been "that many attacks" Give us a shout when you think there's been quite a few won't you. I do think that one attack is one too many and an attack on the scale of Friday is certain to provoke a reaction even if this is the only attack in existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 I definitely think there should be more stringent checks at the border. If we have to let them in due to the crisis as they have nowhere else to go then as unpalatable as it is to some, they should be held somewhere securely whilst they are processed properly. It does appear that security across borders has been very lax and terrorists have been able to take advantage of this. It's a very difficult situation and there are no easy answers. I don't disagree with having a process to vet anyone moving across borders but much of ISIS make up consists of 2nd, 3rd generation etc migrants who are European citizens which has little to do with the migrant crisis caused by the ISIS presence in Syria and Iraq to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 Why is it "putting everyone under the same umbrella", because you stop the flow of immigration that has brought in terrorists? It's a question for you. How would you curb the flow of Muslim immigration into Europe through fear that a proportion would be extremist without effectively saying that Muslims are dangerous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Bognor Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 I don't disagree with having a process to vet anyone moving across borders but much of ISIS make up consists of 2nd, 3rd generation etc migrants who are European citizens which has little to do with the migrant crisis caused by the ISIS presence in Syria and Iraq to begin with. True, it may be the case that "they" are already here. However they need weapons, ammunition and explosives and for this reason alone, border controls need to be tightened. Wasn't a chap linked to the Paris attacks stopped with a car full of automatic weapons and explosives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 It's a question for you. How would you curb the flow of Muslim immigration into Europe through fear that a proportion would be extremist without effectively saying that Muslims are dangerous? If your interpretation of controlling immigration from countries such as Syria is that it means that all muslims are terrorists, that's your own problem. We control migration from other parts of the world effectively, I can't see anyone stating that everyone in those countries is a terrorist. Its not a complex, novel suggestion - controlling borders and limiting migration is sensible, normal process in most developed countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 18 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2015 Limiting migration to who exactly? What would be your criteria for letting the lucky ones in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 18 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2015 I went to Paris recently. I didn't just wander over there. My passport was checked a couple of times and my bags were checked. I wouldn't say it is a free for all although clearly if you have access to fake passports it is easier. I still don't think it is that easy to move guns and ammunition around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 I don't disagree with having a process to vet anyone moving across borders but much of ISIS make up consists of 2nd, 3rd generation etc migrants who are European citizens which has little to do with the migrant crisis caused by the ISIS presence in Syria and Iraq to begin with. That's a separate issue. I'd want to sort out the issue caused by migration first and then tackle things at home. That's sort of up to the nation involved to police though with the security services and vigilance etc much as you do with other types of organised crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 If your interpretation of controlling immigration from countries such as Syria is that it means that all muslims are terrorists, that's your own problem. We control migration from other parts of the world effectively, I can't see anyone stating that everyone in those countries is a terrorist. Its not a complex, novel suggestion - controlling borders and limiting migration is sensible, normal process in most developed countries. Migrants from Syria in the volumes we're seeing now are an anomaly and a symptom of the presence of ISIS coupled with the brutality of the Assad regime. That needs to be looked at in isolation and better controlled. More broadly, our immigration policy can't be based on peoples religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 Migrants from Syria in the volumes we're seeing now are an anomaly and a symptom of the presence of ISIS coupled with the brutality of the Assad regime. That needs to be looked at in isolation and better controlled. More broadly, our immigration policy can't be based on peoples religion. But we can and should stop immigration from countries that produce terrorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 If your interpretation of controlling immigration from countries such as Syria is that it means that all muslims are terrorists, that's your own problem. We control migration from other parts of the world effectively, I can't see anyone stating that everyone in those countries is a terrorist. Its not a complex, novel suggestion - controlling borders and limiting migration is sensible, normal process in most developed countries. Er... at the rate of 500,000 a year coming in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saint si Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 I went to Paris recently. I didn't just wander over there. My passport was checked a couple of times and my bags were checked. I wouldn't say it is a free for all although clearly if you have access to fake passports it is easier. I still don't think it is that easy to move guns and ammunition around. You were travelling from UK though, presumably. Travelling between Schengen area nations is a lot more relaxed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 Er... at the rate of 500,000 a year coming in? I agree that is far too much, but it's based on a set agreement and process. We control how many people migrate from Russia for example. But my point was with regards to Western Europe as a whole anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 But we can and should stop immigration from countries that produce terrorists. It's a catch 22 as there are people being slaughtered on the scale of genocide in some of those countries so obviously they want to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 18 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2015 You were travelling from UK though, presumably. Travelling between Schengen area nations is a lot more relaxed. Yes, from the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 Yes, from the UK. So not remotely comparable to this situation then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 18 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2015 https://scontent-ams3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtl1/v/t1.0-9/12239689_1071938362846076_3316998329362310303_n.jpg?oh=c080c80746f7948a8545f5015195c06e&oe=56EFE497 Meant to post this earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 18 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2015 So not remotely comparable to this situation then. Some borders may be easier to cross than others. I was just pointing out that our border is not that easy to cross. Ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 Some borders may be easier to cross than others. I was just pointing out that our border is not that easy to cross. Ok? I'm sure all of us have been on holiday and are aware of that. We are an island and it's totally different on mainland Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 18 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2015 I'm sure all of us have been on holiday and are aware of that. We are an island and it's totally different on mainland Europe. Yep, cant argue with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 Yep, cant argue with that. Thanks for telling us about your Paris holiday though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 18 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2015 You are welcome. Would you like to hear about my trip to Turkey too? Its full of Muslims apparently! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 (edited) He said "a number hold similar views... hence the sheer volume of terrorist attacks". My points are that 1) I don't think there have been that many attacks 2) it doesn't take that many people to conduct them and 3) either way they're a tiny proportion of the people they claim to share a religion with, so associating extremist activity with ALL people who share a couple of similar traits is ridiculous nonsense. In the last year alone there's been 7 serious plots just in the UK alone foiled. Sounds pretty complacent to try and downplay the extent of threat we face. Edited 18 November, 2015 by Orange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 Problem is as i understand it we have little control really in the long run how many we let in because if mad Merkel has her way and issues hundreds of thousands of people citizenship/refugee status, surely they then have the right to then come to the UK if we're to stay within the EU and the free movement of people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 But we can and should stop immigration from countries that produce terrorists. That's quite a list and would include Ireland, Spain and the USA and as most of the Paris attackers came from France and Belgium those two countries a well I guess. Actually I'm all for the last one as it would really bugger up spurs defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 Problem is as i understand it we have little control really in the long run how many we let in because if mad Merkel has her way and issues hundreds of thousands of people citizenship/refugee status, surely they then have the right to then come to the UK if we're to stay within the EU and the free movement of people? The right to free movement in the EU is limited. There has to be a job for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 (edited) The right to free movement in the EU is limited. There has to be a job for them. But if I recall correctly the amount of remuneration is not important. As long as they're making some money you can't chuck them out. So if you have 5 immigrants sharing 1 position that's AOK and they can apply for supplementary benefits to make up the numbers. Edited 18 November, 2015 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 (edited) But if I recall correctly the amount of remuneration is not important. As long as they're making some money you can't chuck them out. So if you have 5 immigrants sharing 1 position that's AOK and they can apply for supplementary benefits to make up the numbers. What on earth are you talking about? Some evidence that this is a widespread phenomenon would be a start. Edited 18 November, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy_D Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-34858514 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-34858514 Very interesting Jimmy. Particularly interesting was this bit: A Singaporean Muslim's Facebook post was addressed to those Muslims who he feels are too quick to disavow any connection between the Islamic State and Islam. "ISIS is Islam's biggest enemy, not the US, not Israel or France or Germany or the Russians," wrote Sulaiman Daud in a status shared nearly 40,000 times. "We have to own the problem. We have to admit that this is a religious problem, and we need to renew our commitment to a secular country which treats all religions equally." "ISIS is a problem for Muslims. And if you can't admit that, you're not really a good Muslim either," he wrote. If what he writes is true, then it makes a mockery of posts from earlier in the thread moaning because other posters considered this a problem within the Islamic religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 I suppose all the rage we see on this thread is kind of understandable, if ultimately misguided I think. It is equally clear that those who surrender to hatred so readily are not about to listen to what calmer voices might try to say to them on here. But perhaps they might at least pause for a moment and listen to someone who has a hell of a lot more cause to feel anger than they do, but nevertheless refuses to surrender himself to hatred. The words of Antoine Leiris - a man as remarkable as he is wise methinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 (edited) Very interesting Jimmy. Particularly interesting was this bit: If what he writes is true, then it makes a mockery of posts from earlier in the thread moaning because other posters considered this a problem within the Islamic religion. Interesting you ignore the other 'random' further down the page, discussing how religious verses have been robbed of their historical context. If, of course, what he says is true Make a mockery - you couldn't be more pompous and disingenuous. Edited 18 November, 2015 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 That's quite a list and would include Ireland, Spain and the USA and as most of the Paris attackers came from France and Belgium those two countries a well I guess. Actually I'm all for the last one as it would really bugger up spurs defence. And the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guan 2.0 Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 For those who previously were unaware of the cartoon, (i hadn't seen it), the cartoon is below. I can't speak to exactly what the cartoonist was reaching for, but my inference (and i realise this is my opinion only) is that the cartoonist is labelling all Migrants that are being processed throughout the EU as out-and-out Jhihadis, otherwise sinister 'Fellow Travellers' or a literal pack of rats. It's as nonsensical as it is mean spirited. However, I find some of the other reaction just as wilfully blind. Imagine on the Piano, Flowers will defeat Bullets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPpoQwicmE, Free hugs, Ignoring Allahu Akbar chants during a minutes silence for the victims of Islamist violence etc.. These are beloved by the a section of the public, who for some reason feel a shield of goodwill would shelter them from any danger. I wonder if those in the Bataclan would have rather had an Armed Policeman on hand while they were being literally gutted on the floor, tortured for the amusement of religious fanatics, or if they thought that flowers and candles would prove a sufficient deterrent to such actions occurring. I felt the Heavy Bombing of Raqqa was actually a measured response given the circumstances. For free speech to take place, the original materials must be made available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 For those who previously were unaware of the cartoon, (i hadn't seen it), the cartoon is below. I can't speak to exactly what the cartoonist was reaching for, but my inference (and i realise this is my opinion only) is that the cartoonist is labelling all Migrants that are being processed throughout the EU as out-and-out Jhihadis, otherwise sinister 'Fellow Travellers' or a literal pack of rats. It's as nonsensical as it is mean spirited. However, I find some of the other reaction just as wilfully blind. Imagine on the Piano, Flowers will defeat Bullets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VPpoQwicmE, Free hugs, Ignoring Allahu Akbar chants during a minutes silence for the victims of Islamist violence etc.. These are beloved by the a section of the public, who for some reason feel a shield of goodwill would shelter them from any danger. I wonder if those in the Bataclan would have rather had an Armed Policeman on hand while they were being literally gutted on the floor, tortured for the amusement of religious fanatics, or if they thought that flowers and candles would prove a sufficient deterrent to such actions occurring. I felt the Heavy Bombing of Raqqa was actually a measured response given the circumstances. For free speech to take place, the original materials must be made available. It's a terrible cartoon mainly because it doesn't make sense. He could have been saying the rats are the terrorists alongside non terrorist migrants, but he can't because one of the men is carrying over a gun. So it would just about make sense with no rats and just the gun man, or no gun man and just the rats (although wouldn't approve of that, as pretty lazy and unnecessary). It's as offensive as a badly executed cartoon as it is plain offensive. Just dopey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffo Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 "Is it OK to link terrorism with Islam?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 And the UK. Certainly but I'm assuming Sourmash wasn't advocating deporting all the British people from Britain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 "Is it OK to link terrorism with Islam?" I'm pretty sure no one is arguing Islamic Militants have nothing to do with Islam.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 (edited) New report highlights ‘sharp rise’ in anti-Muslim attacks and ‘environment of hate’ in Britain http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/new-report-highlights-sharp-rise-in-anti-muslim-attacks-and-environment-of-hate-in-britain-a6739596.html Some of this needs to be taking with a pinch of salt the Tell MAMA stats for example have been questioned in the past (mostly because they don't have a definition for a Muslim attack) Edited 18 November, 2015 by doddisalegend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 (edited) With regard to the 'immigrant / terrorist' issue, Abdelhamid Abaaoud was born and raised in Belgium. His father moved there in 1975. It would seem the issue may rather be the radicalisation of 'home grown' disaffected teens. Edit; sorry if I've simply reiterated something that has already been added to the thread, but it is getting difficult to separate the discussion from the b!tching. Edited 18 November, 2015 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 18 November, 2015 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2015 With regard to the 'immigrant / terrorist' issue, Abdelhamid Abaaoud was born and raised in Belgium. His father moved there in 1975. It would seem the issue may rather be the radicalisation of 'home grown' disaffected teens. A reporter the other night was talking of an area in Brussels where a lot of disaffected young men lived that was rife with crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 A reporter the other night was talking of an area in Brussels where a lot of disaffected young men lived that was rife with crime. A commentator on the BBC radio news said the weapons were probably sourced from the local criminal underworld, with whom the terrorists made acquaintance whilst in jail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 18 November, 2015 Share Posted 18 November, 2015 A reporter the other night was talking of an area in Brussels where a lot of disaffected young men lived that was rife with crime. Molenbeek. It seems to have been behind a lot of the recent activity. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/15/molenbeek-the-brussels-borough-in-the-spotlight-after-paris-attacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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