hypochondriac Posted 24 November, 2017 Author Share Posted 24 November, 2017 Did you read the article I linked to? Here's another one, if you like.Thanks but I've read my fair share of articles stating the opposite. This for example: https://wis-wander.weizmann.ac.il/life-sciences/researchers-identify-6500-genes-are-expressed-differently-men-and-women Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 24 November, 2017 Author Share Posted 24 November, 2017 Yes you can. Refer to people in the way they choose, just like you do when you use their names. I'm Duncan and I'd like it if you called me that. If you can manage to navigate the hundreds of thousands of names in the world then you can manage a pronoun, of which there are far fewer. It's good manners, simple as that.That's utterly insane. Are you seriously expecting the general public to remember a potentially limitless set of pronouns everytime they converse with someone just because they've decided they don't fancy Mr or Mrs? It's got nothing to do with politeness, it's totally unworkable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 24 November, 2017 Author Share Posted 24 November, 2017 The science in this article mainly deals with what most people call "intersex". This is a known condition which has a physical manifestation. I don't think that's what people are talking about here though. There are also those for who there is no identifiable, scientific 'reason' for why they might want to be the opposite gender, but want to be nonetheless. This is most transgender people as far as I am aware. I think most people would agree that they should be allowed to dress, behave and "be" whoever they want and called by whatever pronouns they choose. Nobody should be attacked or bullied for their choices. Whether the nhs should pay for surgery in these cases and whether this should be encouraged as 'normal' in schools is debatable though in my opinion as the science is well behind... You make it sound like science is clear about this. It isn't. The surface has only been scratched and has come up with very little. It has not been proven that a certain % of males are born with a female brain - that is unproven speculation. Show me the science which proves this. Your article does not. If someone chooses to be another gender, in so far as we know, it's usually just that - a choice, with no scientific explanation for it.Thabks. Summed up my thoughts far better than I could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 24 November, 2017 Share Posted 24 November, 2017 (edited) That's utterly insane. Are you seriously expecting the general public to remember a potentially limitless set of pronouns everytime they converse with someone just because they've decided they don't fancy Mr or Mrs? It's got nothing to do with politeness, it's totally unworkable. How many non-binary people do you know? I don’t know any, so it’s not really crossed my radar in personal conversation. That makes it quite easy to address if the issue comes up. You can rest easy knowing that the vast, vast majority of people will be happy with Mr and Ms. I don’t pretend the science is clear on this, only that it is pointing ever stronger away from the notion that there are two immutable genders. Edited 24 November, 2017 by DuncanRG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 24 November, 2017 Share Posted 24 November, 2017 I couldn't give a monkeys. Just refer to people by their name. I'm more offended that some undeserving f*ckers insist on being called Sir or Lord because some ***t decided to give them a title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKD Posted 24 November, 2017 Share Posted 24 November, 2017 We need more classifications, as I have seem some horrors at St Marys who are clearly not man , woman. neutral or beast. No need to speak about Kat like that. She may have sold us down the river and sold us to the investor interested just to line her pockets, but to attack her personal appearance is out of order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suewhistle Posted 24 November, 2017 Share Posted 24 November, 2017 If us having it annoys people into a frothy mouthed rage for some reason, then i'm all for it. Yeah. Funny that Hypo was the one to start it too. I'm sure there's a career at The Daily Mail waiting for him. As usual there's a fair bit of ignorance on this thread, and happy to display it as well, so no different from normal then! Others seem more informed or, more my own view, not give a to**. As it happens I've met a hermaphrodite who defined as female. I know of an Intersex person in Brighton who was quite happy being intersex, and didn't want to be pigeonholed into the binary gender model - and why should they? As DuncanRG points out, it's a simple matter of politeness. I know many women, both married and unmarried, who use Ms and if you don't understand why then I can't be ar*ed to explain. See you all on Sunday. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 24 November, 2017 Author Share Posted 24 November, 2017 (edited) How many non-binary people do you know? I don’t know any, so it’s not really crossed my radar in personal conversation. That makes it quite easy to address if the issue comes up. You can rest easy knowing that the vast, vast majority of people will be happy with Mr and Ms. I don’t pretend the science is clear on this, only that it is pointing ever stronger away from the notion that there are two immutable genders. Come across a few transtrenders in my time but then I did work in a university for a while so it was inevitable. As you rightly state, the vast majority recognise male and female genders. If an individual is born male but decides they are female then out of politeness I will almost certainly refer to them as she despite them still being biologically male. If I were to meet a class of people who all want to be addressed by some different pronoun then it's likely I'll be attempting to avoid pronoun use all together but I certainly won't be indulging their delusion by using a host of different pronouns like Zim, zer and they or whatever else they fancied. Particularly because some studies actually say that this approach does more harm than good in the long term. Laws in the US and Canada have shown that it certainly isn't just about simple politeness and no doubt certain people would love for laws of this kind to be introduced here in a similar fashion. Let's hope not. Edited 24 November, 2017 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 24 November, 2017 Share Posted 24 November, 2017 Who gives a flying f**k Perhaps fanboy OP can crack one off to his hysterical idol Jordan Peterson in the Lounge? Doesn’t seem Saints-related. Oh dear hypo, you are slipping. If I had written this you would have been all over it like a rash. Anything written by the forum bully though and you bottle it. Why is that? It is not everyday that I agree with Shurlock, but in this instance he is 100% right. This has nothing to do with Southampton FC so what is it doing here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted 24 November, 2017 Share Posted 24 November, 2017 I couldn't give a monkeys. Just refer to people by their name. I'm more offended that some undeserving f*ckers insist on being called Sir or Lord because some ***t decided to give them a title. You know Duckhunter isn’t a true Lord? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simo Posted 24 November, 2017 Share Posted 24 November, 2017 You know Duckhunter isn’t a true Lord? I'm getting to like you more and more Mx Whelk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 24 November, 2017 Share Posted 24 November, 2017 You know Duckhunter isn’t a true Lord? I had this vision of him having a kip next to Alan Sugar in the House of Lords, waking occasionally to post some sh*t on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 24 November, 2017 Share Posted 24 November, 2017 Come across a few transtrenders in my time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian lord Posted 24 November, 2017 Share Posted 24 November, 2017 I think most will understand and empathise with people who are truly intersex in terms of genes, gonad anatomy, or sex hormonal profile. One suspects that the vast majority people 'identifying' as 'non-binary' or 'gender fluid' will not be intersex. They will be genotypically and phenotypically male or female. So their non-binary element is entirely supratentorial and cognitive-emotional. So, if we accept this, by extension one might be able to identify as an entirely different species. I am going to declare as a giraffe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 24 November, 2017 Author Share Posted 24 November, 2017 I was waiting for that when I wrote it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 24 November, 2017 Share Posted 24 November, 2017 I came across a ladyboy the other day myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 24 November, 2017 Share Posted 24 November, 2017 I came across a ladyboy the other day myself. My new Thai bride looks tiny next to me. But to be fair, she has just been swimming and it's really cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
for_heaven's_Saint Posted 24 November, 2017 Share Posted 24 November, 2017 One suspects that the vast majority people 'identifying' as 'non-binary' or 'gender fluid' will not be intersex. They will be genotypically and phenotypically male or female. So their non-binary element is entirely supratentorial and cognitive-emotional. So, if we accept this, by extension one might be able to identify as an entirely different species. So f*cking what? It doesn’t gain them any advantage over you does it? Let people be who they want to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 24 November, 2017 Share Posted 24 November, 2017 So f*cking what? It doesn’t gain them any advantage over you does it? Let people be who they want to be.The issue comes with which genders "rules" do they come under - would a man who identifies as female be allowed to use the women's changing rooms at a swimming pool? If someone is genuinely going through the change then by all means, have all the work done and live your life as the opposite sex. But when it's just someone dressing, acting and/or speaking differently to how their gender usually is...? Grey area at best. Sent from my SM-J330FN using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian lord Posted 24 November, 2017 Share Posted 24 November, 2017 (edited) So f*cking what? It doesn’t gain them any advantage over you does it? Let people be who they want to be. Where did I complain about advantage? Where did I say I wouldn't let people be who they want? Its all in your head old chap, rather like most non-binaries! How fitting. Edited 24 November, 2017 by adrian lord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brmbrm Posted 25 November, 2017 Share Posted 25 November, 2017 Thanks but I've read my fair share of articles stating the opposite. This for example: https://wis-wander.weizmann.ac.il/life-sciences/researchers-identify-6500-genes-are-expressed-differently-men-and-women Really not sure what your point is, nor whether you really understand it. The article you cite says there are 6000-odd genetic differences between "male" and "female". So what if some person shares most "male" but some "female"? What are they, "Insane" according to you, or what? In some people things are not as clearcut as you would like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 25 November, 2017 Share Posted 25 November, 2017 Don't see why anyone it doesn't affect should care. Load of whining ****s getting upset about nothing on here. I have no problem with how other people identify themselves or what they want to call themselves. Do people really get so upset and confused by different names? Get a grip and stop searching for things to be outraged about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 25 November, 2017 Author Share Posted 25 November, 2017 Really not sure what your point is, nor whether you really understand it. The article you cite says there are 6000-odd genetic differences between "male" and "female". So what if some person shares most "male" but some "female"? What are they, "Insane" according to you, or what? In some people things are not as clearcut as you would like. In rare cases where there is a defect, these people would have a disorder. It's not some third gender in the same way that if a baby is born without an arm they aren't a new class of human. I think we are talking about two different things here anyway. Intersex and hermaphrodites etc deserve understanding and help. People who pretend that there's no such thing as male and female and who consequently decide they are grey gender or gender fluid or a non binary animal kin need an entirely different type of help. They do real damage to actual transsexuals with gender dysphoria who just want to transition from one gender to another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonist Posted 25 November, 2017 Share Posted 25 November, 2017 Why not just remove the title of Mr, Mrs, Miss or what ever is there in it's place. No one can then be offended surely. Job done! agreed. if the designation serves such little purpose that we can choose it, then there is no reason for anyone to know or care about it, least of all the football club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 25 November, 2017 Author Share Posted 25 November, 2017 agreed. if the designation serves such little purpose that we can choose it, then there is no reason for anyone to know or care about it, least of all the football club.I actually think that would be a good solution. Certainly preferable to Mx or something else like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supersubpuckett Posted 25 November, 2017 Share Posted 25 November, 2017 loving the intolerance on here - quite alarming how ignorant and bigoted some people are doesn't bother me at all but it's clearly important those who wish to use these new pronouns physical illness vs mental illness physical intersex vs mental intersex just because you can't see it doesn't make it any less real Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonist Posted 25 November, 2017 Share Posted 25 November, 2017 That doesn't necessarily defuse the situation on its own though. What happens when a member of staff addresses them as sir or madam? Unless we revert to comrade, a snowflake is going to kick up a **** storm because of their own gender dissonance. I can't imagine thinking it was worthwhile complaining if I was "misgendered". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essruu Posted 25 November, 2017 Share Posted 25 November, 2017 I'm hoping we are waiting to be the first to have a gender neutral player. Raheem Sterling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian lord Posted 25 November, 2017 Share Posted 25 November, 2017 So will there be : men’s football teams Women’s football teams Intersex football teams Or, in this brave new world of gender differentiation denial will we abolish all gender segregation in football? Have teams with men women and intersex players. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericofarabia Posted 25 November, 2017 Share Posted 25 November, 2017 Why stop at individuals? What sort of impression are clubs like MaleGender Utd and City, FemaleGenderField Utd and Wednesday, MaleGendersfield Town and SFemalegenitilathorpe (Scunny) etc setting? If people are really getting upset about being 'mis addressed" when purchasing a football ticket, then maybe The Live Football Experience isn't really ideal for them. Bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 25 November, 2017 Share Posted 25 November, 2017 So will there be : men’s football teams Women’s football teams Intersex football teams Or, in this brave new world of gender differentiation denial will we abolish all gender segregation in football? Have teams with men women and intersex players. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk As long as there are no quotas you just say it's not a gender specific team. Clearly no birds or ladyboys would be good enough so it wouldn't be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 25 November, 2017 Share Posted 25 November, 2017 Latest news: Swans 0 Bournemouth 0. Both managers said after the match they had instructed their players not to score in case it hurt anyones feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighthouse Posted 25 November, 2017 Share Posted 25 November, 2017 Raheem Sterling. Nasri was the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 26 November, 2017 Share Posted 26 November, 2017 Just thinking about it, I wondered what first name an Mx would adopt ? Peter, Dave, Mark and John tend to imply male ! Susan, Mary, Nancy and Sheila tend to imply female ! Do they have to use Sam/Samantha, Leslie/Lesley etc.. cos otherwise people will assume that they are either male or female anyway and the whole pronoun thing is out of the window ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKD Posted 26 November, 2017 Share Posted 26 November, 2017 loving the intolerance on here - quite alarming how ignorant and bigoted some people are doesn't bother me at all but it's clearly important those who wish to use these new pronouns physical illness vs mental illness physical intersex vs mental intersex just because you can't see it doesn't make it any less real It’s not real mate. Pretty sure science has proven there are only 2 genders. If you believe you are neither then you probably have some form of mental illness, which is real and should have much more attention than this nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 26 November, 2017 Author Share Posted 26 November, 2017 Just thinking about it, I wondered what first name an Mx would adopt ? Peter, Dave, Mark and John tend to imply male ! Susan, Mary, Nancy and Sheila tend to imply female ! Do they have to use Sam/Samantha, Leslie/Lesley etc.. cos otherwise people will assume that they are either male or female anyway and the whole pronoun thing is out of the window !Somethibg like spark or leaf would work. Ambiguous enough to get people questioning it fro the outset- particularly if you dye your hair orange or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintquin Posted 26 November, 2017 Share Posted 26 November, 2017 If I take a phone call then the voice will probable give me some kind of clue as to the sex of the other person. Then what am I meant to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 26 November, 2017 Author Share Posted 26 November, 2017 If I take a phone call then the voice will probable give me some kind of clue as to the sex of the other person. Then what am I meant to do?You shouldn't assume someone's gender identity. It is an act of violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian lord Posted 26 November, 2017 Share Posted 26 November, 2017 What about people who identify as Ford Fiesta 1.4 Ecoboosts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 26 November, 2017 Share Posted 26 November, 2017 It’s not real mate. Pretty sure science has proven there are only 2 genders. If you believe you are neither then you probably have some form of mental illness, which is real and should have much more attention than this nonsense. If you want to cite science, please read up. The articles in this thread are a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint IQ Posted 26 November, 2017 Share Posted 26 November, 2017 We need more classifications, as I have seem some horrors at St Marys who are clearly not man , woman. neutral or beast. I agree! Everytime I'm in Fareham town I see the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 26 November, 2017 Share Posted 26 November, 2017 I’m trying to think of something I give less of a **** about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintquin Posted 27 November, 2017 Share Posted 27 November, 2017 You shouldn't assume someone's gender identity. It is an act of violence. But absolutely everybody does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 27 November, 2017 Author Share Posted 27 November, 2017 But absolutely everybody does!Common sense statements like that have no place here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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