The Death of the Tory Party and the Rebirth of the UK As We Know It (General Election 2024 Thread)

[Weston Super Saint]

9 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

They are entitled to claim asylum in the UK. The UK refuses to set up a legal route for them to do so, therefore the only way for them to exercise their perfectly legitimate right is to take an alternative route. There is no reason why the UK Government can't set up a legal route.

I know.  This isn't something new and has been discussed before ad infinitum.

There is also no reason why the UK Government should set up a legal route.

[Weston Super Saint]

3 hours ago, moonraker said:

And are entitled to be treated humanely and receive a fair and efficient hearing, shamefully neither of which this excuse for a government seems capable of doing. 

Unlike the French?

Quote

But another reason people leave France, hoping to find safety in the UK, is because of the conditions in French refugee camps and informal settlements.

The conditions they live in are desperate and have been deemed degrading by Human Rights Watch. People live amongst the trees, in the mud, with few belongings and little access to sanitation, medical care or food. Essential items have become even more scarce than they were before the pandemic and Brexit. 

Aid services are not easily accessible and made even more difficult to provide due to legal restrictions and blockades created by the police. 

Link - from pingpong's post.

[sadoldgit]

10 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

They are entitled to claim asylum in the UK. The UK refuses to set up a legal route for them to do so, therefore the only way for them to exercise their perfectly legitimate right is to take an alternative route. There is no reason why the UK Government can't set up a legal route.

There is a reason. This government want to make it as difficult as possible for asylum seekers to seek asylum here. That is why they limit the safe procedures and have been dragging their feet about processing the claims of those already here. They have been deliberately mismanaging it for years so that they can then claim that migration is a “major issue” and label people who are perfectly entitled to seek asylum here as “illegal”. It’s straight out of the Tory playbook. When things get difficult, blame the foreigners.

[a1ex2001]

2 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I know.  This isn't something new and has been discussed before ad infinitum.

There is also no reason why the UK Government should set up a legal route.

There is a really good reason for them to set up a legal route, all we have heard from the UK Government for the last year is 'stop the boats' opening a legal route to apply for asylum without crossing the channel in a small boat would be  huge step to achieving this goal unlike this weird Rwanda mess.  The PM has said repeatedly h wants to stop the criminal gangs and the risk/loss of life if he really means that then he would open a processing centre in France (The French government have said they would agree to this) but actually being the dishonest scumbag that he is he just keeps wasting money on other things and making loads of noise while not actually doing anything to 'stop the boats' or process the massive backlog of application already in the UK.  Anyone would think the government don't actually want to fix the problem, maybe it's convenient for something oooh quick look over there while I steal all your cookies and ram loads of legislation designed to undermine the rights of UK citizens and the rule of law.......

[andypen]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

There is a reason. This government want to make it as difficult as possible for asylum seekers to seek asylum here. That is why they limit the safe procedures and have been dragging their feet about processing the claims of those already here. They have been deliberately mismanaging it for years so that they can then claim that migration is a “major issue” and label people who are perfectly entitled to seek asylum here as “illegal”. It’s straight out of the Tory playbook. When things get difficult, blame the foreigners.

I think you give this Govt a litte too much credit, your theory would involve a plan managed competently over a period of time, which would be a first for this shower. Moreover, the Tories were more than happy to let legal migration rocket due to a miopic dogma about rising GDP. More likely that the Govt are belatedly reacting to public pressure, wanting control of your country's borders was a major factor in the Brexit vote, like it or not it was a democratic decision by the voters which has been largely ignored or mismanaged. On that note I'm amazed the streets of Britain aren't routinely set ablaze considering we have 52% of the population who are racist bigots.

Also, I think that the notion that anyone is "entitled" to seek asylum here or anywhere else stretches the definition and spirit of asylum. Most of these people are not fleeing war or political, religious or homophobic persecution, some certainly are, most are not. Ditching any form of identification into the Channel en route are hardly the actions of genuine asylum seekers IMO.

The French processing centre idea sounds reasonable, until thousands are refused asylum (eventually) and decide to sail over anyway, back to square one.

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, a1ex2001 said:

There is a really good reason for them to set up a legal route, all we have heard from the UK Government for the last year is 'stop the boats' opening a legal route to apply for asylum without crossing the channel in a small boat would be  huge step to achieving this goal unlike this weird Rwanda mess.  The PM has said repeatedly h wants to stop the criminal gangs and the risk/loss of life if he really means that then he would open a processing centre in France (The French government have said they would agree to this) but actually being the dishonest scumbag that he is he just keeps wasting money on other things and making loads of noise while not actually doing anything to 'stop the boats' or process the massive backlog of application already in the UK.  Anyone would think the government don't actually want to fix the problem, maybe it's convenient for something oooh quick look over there while I steal all your cookies and ram loads of legislation designed to undermine the rights of UK citizens and the rule of law.......

I think you have misunderstood the 'stop the boats' slogan in terms of it's political intentions.

It's pretty obvious that the slogan is pandering to all those who are too stupid to understand that this island nation needs a certain amount of immigration (and indeed migration).  For them, 'stop the boats' means 'stop the immigrants'.  Politically, there is no reason for the government to explain in simple terms any misconceptions, certainly not whilst they are assured of winning votes!

Stupidly, Sunak is pinning his GE hopes on getting enough people to vote to 'stop the boats'.  Setting up an immigration centre in France would be giving the game away to all but the most mentally incapable and would be a sure fire vote loser.

Let's face it, the 'small boats' issue is basically designed to win votes at the GE.  I'm sure the Gov't couldn't really give a fuck how many people cross the channel as, at the end of the day, they will be filling the tax coffers in some way, shape or form.

[Whitey Grandad]

31 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

I think you have misunderstood the 'stop the boats' slogan in terms of it's political intentions.

It's pretty obvious that the slogan is pandering to all those who are too stupid to understand that this island nation needs a certain amount of immigration (and indeed migration).  For them, 'stop the boats' means 'stop the immigrants'.  Politically, there is no reason for the government to explain in simple terms any misconceptions, certainly not whilst they are assured of winning votes!

Stupidly, Sunak is pinning his GE hopes on getting enough people to vote to 'stop the boats'.  Setting up an immigration centre in France would be giving the game away to all but the most mentally incapable and would be a sure fire vote loser.

Let's face it, the 'small boats' issue is basically designed to win votes at the GE.  I'm sure the Gov't couldn't really give a fuck how many people cross the channel as, at the end of the day, they will be filling the tax coffers in some way, shape or form.

We don’t need any immigration. We have too many people here already. 
 

How many immigrants/migrants do you have in your spare room or sleeping on your sofa WSS?

[Weston Super Saint]

10 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

We don’t need any immigration. We have too many people here already. 
 

How many immigrants/migrants do you have in your spare room or sleeping on your sofa WSS?

Of course we need immigrants.  We may have too many people - hence why I put we also needed migration - but we need immigrants to fill skill gaps, like doctors and nurses.  We also need immigrants to work in jobs like recycling, manufacturing etc as our benefits system is too generous to entice our own workforce to do the jobs they consider to be 'beneath' them.

To answer your question about how many immigrants I have sleeping in my spare room, it's none.  However, Mrs WSS is Polish and sleeps in the main bedroom, so techinically one  

[a1ex2001]

42 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

We don’t need any immigration. We have too many people here already. 
 

How many immigrants/migrants do you have in your spare room or sleeping on your sofa WSS?

Define too many people?  are you saying we need a hard cap population growth a one child policy etc etc or is it just foreigners we need to stop?

Edited January 19 by a1ex2001

[sadoldgit]

53 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

We don’t need any immigration. We have too many people here already. 
 

How many immigrants/migrants do you have in your spare room or sleeping on your sofa WSS?

We absolutely do need immigration Whitey. How do you think the NHS, the service industry or the countless other low paid jobs would be staffed if it weren’t for immigration?

[Lord Duckhunter]

Forget about Rwanda. We should just bus them to processing centres in pro immigration pinko & Leftie MP’s constituencies. Takeover some  hotels in those constituencies & they can live amongst the people who voted for those soft arsed MP’s. They’re sure to be given a great welcome so it will defo enhance community relations & give these poor persecuted individuals some security in their lives.
 

The UK could even set up a legal route from France to the consistencies of mps calling for legal routes. 
 

 

[Tamesaint]

7 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Forget about Rwanda. We should just bus them to processing centres in pro immigration pinko & Leftie MP’s constituencies. Takeover some  hotels in those constituencies & they can live amongst the people who voted for those soft arsed MP’s. They’re sure to be given a great welcome so it will defo enhance community relations & give these poor persecuted individuals some security in their lives.
 

The UK could even set up a legal route from France to the consistencies of mps calling for legal routes. 
 

 

Pathetic. 

[Winnersaint]

6 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Forget about Rwanda. We should just bus them to processing centres in pro immigration pinko & Leftie MP’s constituencies. Takeover some  hotels in those constituencies & they can live amongst the people who voted for those soft arsed MP’s. They’re sure to be given a great welcome so it will defo enhance community relations & give these poor persecuted individuals some security in their lives.
 

The UK could even set up a legal route from France to the consistencies of mps calling for legal routes. 
 

 

Here in my blue wall constituency  we already have them in a hotel not a mile away from where I am now. Genuinely, I was surprised when I was told this

[Lord Duckhunter]

5 minutes ago, Tamesaint said:

Pathetic. 

Where do you want them processed then, Rwanda? 

[a1ex2001]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Where do you want them processed then, Rwanda? 

 

The government are not proposing to process them in Rwanda they are planning to unilaterally deport them to Rwanda where the Rwandan government will process their applications for asylum in Rwanda, in return we will give the Rwandan Government an unspecified number of millions and take an unspecified number of other asylum cases from Rwanda in return.  The only government quote I've ever seen said they were expecting to send a couple of hundred people a year to Rwanda so a couple of days worth of arrivals the rest will still be here and will still need housing and processing the Rwanda scheme is a Trojan Pony.

back to your comment no they should be processed in a timely manner when they arrive in the UK in immigration centres, the only reason we have hotels full of asylum seekers is because we don't process them for two years!  We have the most right wing government in a generation full of anti immigration head bangers yet still the government doesn't actually do the things that would stop/control immigration, wake up and smell the coffee the government created this problem so that the gullible would believe all there problems are because of a few people in dinghy's crossing the channel and not because of a bunch of feckless chancers running the country in the best interests of the already rich while lining there own pockets.

If we processed applications quickly we wouldn't need to house people in hotels and we could deport those not allowed to stay and get those allowed to stay working and contributing to society rather than costing us x million a day in hotel bills, other countries manage to process significantly more applications than us and reject and deport a much higher percentage than us.

Just to be clear I've never voted labour in my life and wouldn't describe myself as particularly left leaning but I'm far to clever to be sucked in by the game the Tory party are playing.

Edited January 19 by a1ex2001

[igsey]

2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

We don’t need any immigration. We have too many people here already. 
 

How many immigrants/migrants do you have in your spare room or sleeping on your sofa WSS?

Christ Whitey, I was already 99% sure that I can ignore everything you say, but now you have confirmed that final 1% for me.

[Tamesaint]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Where do you want them processed then, Rwanda? 

Wherever you live. You then might realise that immigrants are not all the monsters that you seem to think. 

[ecuk268]

I see that, out of the 5000 immigrants that were listed to go to Rwanda before the courts stopped it, 4300 have "vanished" and the Home Office have no idea where they are.

 

[SotonianWill]

2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

We don’t need any immigration. We have too many people here already. 

How else will we up our GDP stats, enrich our culture, and gain more world class doctors? Think of the cuisine. 

[a1ex2001]

5 minutes ago, ecuk268 said:

I see that, out of the 5000 immigrants that were listed to go to Rwanda before the courts stopped it, 4300 have "vanished" and the Home Office have no idea where they are.

 

I seem to recall someone saying 'strong and stable' a lot then someone saying 'get brexit done' every other minute and no it's 'stop the boats' when will people realise this government is so crap it can't even deliver on a three word buzz phrase.  It really is time to 'Go back to square one' before these criminals were anywhere near the levers of power.

[The Kraken]

1 hour ago, a1ex2001 said:

I'm far to clever to be sucked in by the game the Tory party are playing.

Yeah, about that......

 

 

Edited January 19 by The Kraken

[Weston Super Saint]

1 hour ago, ecuk268 said:

I see that, out of the 5000 immigrants that were listed to go to Rwanda before the courts stopped it, 4300 have "vanished" and the Home Office have no idea where they are.

 

Cameroon  

[Weston Super Saint]

Not just incompetent Tories that can't keep hold of those pesky, slippery whatsapp messages!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68032233

Quote

All Nicola Sturgeon's WhatsApp messages during the pandemic appear to have been deleted, the Covid inquiry has heard.

 

Edited January 19 by Weston Super Saint

[a1ex2001]

59 minutes ago, The Kraken said:

Yeah, about that......

 

 

lol grammar isn't a measure of intelligence but nice spot, I blame being educated in Wales for any deficiencies in my English

[a1ex2001]

18 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Not just incompetent Tories that can't keep hold of those pesky, slippery whatsapp messages!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-68032233

 

It's time we banned all MP's from all parties and all government/public officials from using anything other than official messaging services with an audit trail for anything even loosely connected to work.  This idea that you can just accidentally delete the record of your screw ups is utterly unacceptable.

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, Tamesaint said:

Wherever you live. You then might realise that immigrants are not all the monsters that you seem to think. 

Who said they were all monsters, I didn’t. 
 

I don’t see the problem with processing & housing them in areas where the population want them. Seems entirely sensible to me, they’d be welcomed with open arms and everyone will be happy. What’s not to like? 

 

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Cameroon  

What, the Foreign Secretary ?

[Weston Super Saint]

41 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

What, the Foreign Secretary ?

Isn't that Cam-moron?

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Isn't that Cam-moron?

Depends on the context.

 

[Winnersaint]

26 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Depends on the context.

 

The same Cam-moron who didn’t have the balls to face down Farage and the Kippers in the early 20 teens?

[Weston Super Saint]

44 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Depends on the context.

 

Can the context be him as a politician?

[badgerx16]

23 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Can the context be him as a politician?

That is a given.

[Whitey Grandad]

10 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

We absolutely do need immigration Whitey. How do you think the NHS, the service industry or the countless other low paid jobs would be staffed if it weren’t for immigration?

Here’s a thought. How about training and employing our existing indigenous population?

[Whitey Grandad]

8 hours ago, SotonianWill said:

How else will we up our GDP stats, enrich our culture, and gain more world class doctors? Think of the cuisine. 

Indeed. Let’s denude the third world iPod all of its health workers.

[a1ex2001]

16 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Here’s a thought. How about training and employing our existing indigenous population?

Takes 5 years to complete basic training of a doctor, 3 years for a nurse etc etc the government have had over a decade to address the shortage and have failed massively to do so while pocketing millions for themselves and their friends.  Anymore Tory failings you would like to highlight?  

[Tamesaint]

1 hour ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Here’s a thought. How about training and employing our existing indigenous population?

How about if the existing population don't fancy the jobs? 

[The Kraken]

2 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Here’s a thought. How about training and employing our existing indigenous population?

This explains a lot.

[Weston Super Saint]

6 hours ago, Tamesaint said:

How about if the existing population don't fancy the jobs? 

There's an article in one of the papers today that says wealthy people should pay more so that the unemployed can have free TV licences.

The welfare system is supposed to support people if they are unlucky enough to lose their jobs whilst they find a new one, not replace the need to work with handouts.  Re-prioritise that and a lot more of our unemployed might fancy the jobs.

[badgerx16]

9 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Here’s a thought. How about training and employing our existing indigenous population?

Are there any Picts left ?

[Lord Duckhunter]

21 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

We absolutely do need immigration Whitey. How do you think the NHS, the service industry or the countless other low paid jobs would be staffed if it weren’t for immigration?

Treasury orthodoxy right there, and the Treasury always prevail in any Government of any colour. 
 

Far easier to dump our people on welfare and import foreigners to do the jobs they won’t, no need to pay proper decent wages for this work because these foreigners will do it for peanuts. It’s why the old left used to oppose mass immigration & free movement. The modern left call for a high wage economy when there’s an over supply of labour, it’s incoherent. 
 

We can also let other countries train up doctors, nurses & midwives then poach them, that’s far easier & cheaper than training our own people. 
 

If anyone thinks it’ll be any different under Labour is deluded, they won’t have the money or the balls to do anything differently. We have the tools to limit the labour supply now, but no Government will use them. It’ll take years & years for a Government to make the necessary reforms & any Government that tried probably won’t get more than 5. Meanwhile soft arses like you will continue to moan about low wages whilst encouraging immigration, and continue to believe that subsidising wages with welfare payments is a good thing. 

Edited January 20 by Lord Duckhunter

[sadoldgit]

12 hours ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Indeed. Let’s denude the third world iPod all of its health workers.

As Australia is doing with us?

[a1ex2001]

On 20/01/2024 at 10:03, Lord Duckhunter said:

Treasury orthodoxy right there, and the Treasury always prevail in any Government of any colour. 
 

Far easier to dump our people on welfare and import foreigners to do the jobs they won’t, no need to pay proper decent wages for this work because these foreigners will do it for peanuts. It’s why the old left used to oppose mass immigration & free movement. The modern left call for a high wage economy when there’s an over supply of labour, it’s incoherent. 
 

We can also let other countries train up doctors, nurses & midwives then poach them, that’s far easier & cheaper than training our own people. 
 

If anyone thinks it’ll be any different under Labour is deluded, they won’t have the money or the balls to do anything differently. We have the tools to limit the labour supply now, but no Government will use them. It’ll take years & years for a Government to make the necessary reforms & any Government that tried probably won’t get more than 5. Meanwhile soft arses like you will continue to moan about low wages whilst encouraging immigration, and continue to believe that subsidising wages with welfare payments is a good thing. 

Love the phrase ‘high wage economy’ it is another one of those three word phrases that is so poorly defined it can mean just about anything to anyone.  If we are saying we will only have high wage jobs that’s a massive economic problem as it involves paying low skill manual jobs like emptying the bins, mowing the grass in the park or working the checkouts ‘high wages’ but that then pushes up other peoples earnings as why would I do a mid level job if I could earn a ‘high wage’ doing something easy, that leads to wage inflation across the board which leads to economic inflation which then makes your ‘high wages’ actually just the same ‘low wages’ as before.  Reducing labour supply does similar things, look at the issues with the shortage of Lorry drivers over the last couple of years and the impact on transport costs.

[Fan The Flames]

We don't get immigrants in to the NHS as cheap labour, the direct employed get paid the same bandings as everyone else. We get them in because for we can't be arsed to train enough staff, it's been easier to rob them from another country for too long.

We have loads of clever kids desperate to get into med school but not enough places to go around. Also why are we charging kids £30k to train to be midwives, nurses, teachers, that's bonkers.

[revolution saint]

On 19/01/2024 at 23:09, Whitey Grandad said:

Here’s a thought. How about training and employing our existing indigenous population?

We've actually got quite a low unemployment rate though so whilst it's convenient to blame pesky benefit claimants I'm not sure it's quite that simple.  Quite a complex area with many nuances mind.

[sadoldgit]

Sunak recently said that under Labour we are in danger of returning to square one. Surely better than returning to the Victorian age Rishi?

https://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/newsroom/britain-slipping-back-to-social-divide-of-victorian-era#:~:text=The UK is in danger,the state of the nation.

[a1ex2001]

9 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Sunak recently said that under Labour we are in danger of returning to square one. Surely better than returning to the Victorian age Rishi?

https://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/newsroom/britain-slipping-back-to-social-divide-of-victorian-era#:~:text=The UK is in danger,the state of the nation.

If we could go back to square one of the current Tory debacle ie Cameron winning a majority and calling his awful referendum then we would be so much better off!  All we have had since is lies, corruption and social and economic decline. It really is staggering how far the country has fallen in such a short time!

[sadoldgit]

It certainly has. The infrastructure is falling apart. We don’t build anything anymore. The NHS is failing. Good luck with finding an NHS dentist. Public services are on their knees. Local councils are going bankrupt. Everything is crying out for investment but what do we hear from this embarrassment of a government? Promises of a (cynical) tax cut before the next election. Change can’t come soon enough but while we have some measure of hope, it is looking increasingly like Trump could be in for a second term…God help us.

[ecuk268]

22 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Sunak recently said that under Labour we are in danger of returning to square one. Surely better than returning to the Victorian age Rishi?

https://www.centreforsocialjustice.org.uk/newsroom/britain-slipping-back-to-social-divide-of-victorian-era#:~:text=The UK is in danger,the state of the nation.

Well, incidents of Rickets, malnutrition and Scurvy increased sharply last year, so he's definitely making progress.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/victorian-disease-gout-rickets-vitamin-d-mumps-scurvy-measles-malnutrition-nhs-hospital-admitted-a8795686.html

Edited January 23 by ecuk268

[Fan The Flames]

After Coffey didn't know the capital if Rwanda, we now have Huw Merriman crying like a spolit twat about BBC bias, the only examples he could come up with was the News Quiz, a satirical show and the presenter of Art Attack (apparently he meant someone else).

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

The NHS is failing. Good luck with finding an NHS dentist. 

The biggest single blow to NHS dental care was Tony Blair’s revision of dental contracts That was what began the decline of NHS dentistry, but don’t let that get in the way of another anti Tory rant. Just be glad you don’t live in Labour run Wales.