The Death of the Tory Party and the Rebirth of the UK As We Know It (General Election 2024 Thread)

[sadoldgit]

Strange that the Tories get a kicking in the local elections yet right wing members of their party criticise the party for not being right wing enough! Here’s a tip, people don’t care about your far right ideologies and crusades against the small boats, trans people and other so called enemies of the state. They care about the cost of living crisis and the economy.

Starmer is no fool. He can see the way to get the Tories out is to encourage tactical voting. There are plenty of constituencies that will never vote Labour but might go with the LibDems. We have even had a true blue constituency turn Green in the local election in Folkestone & Hythe.

I’d be more than happy with a Labour/LibDem coalition and it will help Starmer keep the far Left at bay.

It is going to take more than one term to undo the mess that we are currently in but at least we are on course to make a start.

Perhaps we can also get Proportional Representation back on the table too!

[Tamesaint]

2 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Strange that the Tories get a kicking in the local elections yet right wing members of their party criticise the party for not being right wing enough! Here’s a tip, people don’t care about your far right ideologies and crusades against the small boats, trans people and other so called enemies of the state. They care about the cost of living crisis and the economy.

Starmer is no fool. He can see the way to get the Tories out is to encourage tactical voting. There are plenty of constituencies that will never vote Labour but might go with the LibDems. We have even had a true blue constituency turn Green in the local election in Folkestone & Hythe.

I’d be more than happy with a Labour/LibDem coalition and it will help Starmer keep the far Left at bay.

It is going to take more than one term to undo the mess that we are currently in but at least we are on course to make a start.

Perhaps we can also get Proportional Representation back on the table too!

I would love to know what WSS finds confusing about this post ... or is it just a Pavlovian response that he has to anything that SOG posts?

[Weston Super Saint]

2 hours ago, Tamesaint said:

I would love to know what WSS finds confusing about this post ... or is it just a Pavlovian response that he has to anything that SOG posts?

All of soggy's posts are confusing.

This one went from local elections to right wing to far right to crusades to Folkestone to coalitions to far left to changing the entire voting system.

I'd be more intrigued to discover what isn't confusing about such a mish mash of ideas.

It's a shame really as Alzheimer's looks like it's really taken a grip on soggy.

[Tamesaint]

16 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

All of soggy's posts are confusing.

 

Says it all.   Rather pathetic really. 🤔

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

Can you put threads on ignore? 

[buctootim]

54 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Can you put threads on ignore? 

Pity you need a button to regulate your actions, but not surprising. Both you and Weston seem to have the same involuntary response mechanisms - same kind of disease as Tourettes or OCD.

Edited 14 May, 2023 by buctootim

[Tamesaint]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Can you put threads on ignore? 

I wonder why the forum's most right wing dinosaur doesn't want to think about the next election. 😁😁😁

[sadoldgit]

1 hour ago, buctootim said:

Pity you need a button to regulate your actions, but not surprising. Both you and Weston seem to have the same involuntary response mechanisms - same kind of disease as Tourettes or OCD.

Ideally they will both ignore this thread (you don’t need a button Duckie, you just make a choice not to click on it) and leave it to the grown ups.

Whilst PR is not the most pressing item on most people’s agenda at the moment, it does needs to be addressed if we are ever going to have something approaching a proper democracy in this country.

It makes no sense when one party can poll significantly fewer votes per seat than another and it is high time that each party is given a number of seats in the House commensurate with their share of the poll. It could well lead to more coalition Governments in future but to my mind that is no bad thing if it prevents the abuse of power that we have seen from various Tory administrations in the last few years.

I stopped voting for the LibDems when Nick Clegg foolishly gave power to Cameron and have seen very little from them since to entice me to vote for them again. They are not going to win a majority next year, but they could well hold the balance of power and Ed Davey has a golden opportunity to put right what Clegg cocked up.

Given what happened in many of the local election results there is every chance that there will be more tactical voting next year. It is possible that Labour will get a working majority, but Starmer would be wise to keep the other opposition parties onside just to make extra sure that we get the change of government this country needs.

We shouldn’t have to vote for a different candidate/party in order to get a desired outcome, but until the voting system in this country is overhauled so that the seats in Parliament actually represents the number of votes cast, we need to vote tactically (unless you want more of the same of course).

 

 

 

 

[Lord Duckhunter]

You made a right cock of yourself last time you tried to argue for PR, so I’d give it a rest if I was you….

[sadoldgit]

10 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

You made a right cock of yourself last time you tried to argue for PR, so I’d give it a rest if I was you….

You make a right cock of yourself every time you post. Perhaps you should take your own advice?

Starmer has said this morning that it is not a priority for Labour (whilst looking at voting rights for EU citizens and lowering the voting age in England???) so it will down to the LinDems to get it on the table if there is a hung Parliament.

[badgerx16]

10 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

You made a right cock of yourself last time you tried to argue for PR, so I’d give it a rest if I was you….

How did he do that ? Arguing something that you personally disagree with is not "making a cock of yourself". Sometimes, even you are wrong.

[sadoldgit]

2 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

How did he do that ? Arguing something that you personally disagree with is not "making a cock of yourself". Sometimes, even you are wrong.

It seems that I made a cock of myself by arguing that my vote in a true Blue constituency is wasted in the first past the post system (if I vote for any party apart from Tory) whereas it will not be wasted in a PR system as it will be included in the way that the seats are proportionality allocated according to votes polled. If I remember correctly I think the usual suspects argued that the vote could still be wasted if the party I vote for don’t poll enough to win a seat. Nonsense of course because the vote has been positive and in play during the whole electoral process. I have lived in dyed in the wool Tory constituencies all my voting life and it is a cast iron certainty that the Tory MP will win no matter which box I tick. That is a wasted vote. If I cast a vote for a smaller party and they don’t poll enough to win one seat, to me that is not a wasted vote as it has been included in the electoral process right up to the final distribution of the seats in the House. The fact that I don’t consider that as a wasted vote is apparently, making a cock of myself.

https://www.makevotesmatter.org.uk/

Edited 15 May, 2023 by sadoldgit
Added link

[badgerx16]

51 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

Apparently I made a cock of myself by arguing that my vote in a true Blue constituency is wasted in the first past the post system (if I vote for any party apart from Tory) whereas it will not be wasted in a PR system as it will be included in the way that the seats are proportionality allocated according to votes polled. If I remember correctly I think the usual suspects argued that the vote could still be wasted if the party I vote for don’t poll enough to win a seat. Nonsense of course because the vote has been positive and in play during the whole electoral process. I have lived in dyed in the wool Tory constituencies all my voting life and it is a cast iron certainty that the Tory MP will win no matter which box I tick. That is a wasted vote. If I cast a vote for a smaller party and they don’t poll enough to win one seat, to me that is not a wasted vote as it has been included in the electoral process right up to the final distribution of the seats in the House. The fact that I don’t consider that as a wasted vote is apparently, making a cock of myself.

In terms of forming a Government, 20% of the votes in 20% of constituencies are what the parties are trying to influence - swing voters in swing seats. The majority of the electorate are insignificant. But then again, some people will always be happy with their donkey, be it bedecked with blue or red rosette.

[Lord Duckhunter]

3 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

How did he do that ? Arguing something that you personally disagree with is not "making a cock of yourself". Sometimes, even you are wrong.

He tried to claim that under PR every single vote counted, that there wouldn’t be one wasted vote.Even people supporting electoral reform were telling him to shut up. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

I’d like to thank SOG for saving me the time of finding his ridiculous no votes wasted pony, by rehashing it again.
 

If I stood as an independent under PR & Mrs Duck was the only person who voted for me, then I’m pretty sure most normal people would call that a wasted vote. Not in Sog’s weird mind though. Evidently, it’s not wasted until the seats are dished out, which is exactly how FPTP works, after the count every vote that didn’t result in an MP could be considered wasted by SOG. Yet votes under PR that don’t result in an MP (and there will be some) don’t. If that’s not making a cock of yourself I don’t know what is. 

Edited 15 May, 2023 by Lord Duckhunter

[badgerx16]

Moggy complaining that needing photo ID at the local elections cost the Tories votes - guess who was Leader of the Commons with responsibility to get the legislation through the House.

[badgerx16]

 Moggy also claims that Brexit meant the UK could provide more assistance to Ukraine after Russia invaded, as compared to France and Germany, completely ignoring that the coordinated response was through NATO and not the EU, that France was in the middle of a Presidential election, or that Germany had constitutional obstacles to overcome before they could start ramping up their support.

 

Edited 15 May, 2023 by badgerx16

[AlexLaw76]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

 Moggy also claims that Brexit meant the UK could provide more assistance to Ukraine after Russia invaded, as compared to France and Germany, completely ignoring that the coordinated response was through NATO and not the EU, that France was in the middle of a Presidential election, or that Germany had constitutional obstacles to overcome before they could start ramping up their support.

 

Not at the start, Germany were actively being obstructive with support, and did little to nothing before last Feb.

It's all covered in the Russia thread 

[aintforever]

50 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Not at the start, Germany were actively being obstructive with support, and did little to nothing before last Feb.

It's all covered in the Russia thread 

Nothing to do with being in or out of the EU though. Mogg is talking bollocks as usual.

Edited 15 May, 2023 by aintforever

[badgerx16]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Not at the start, Germany were actively being obstructive with support, and did little to nothing before last Feb.

It's all covered in the Russia thread 

Where you spend a lot of time dismissing the ability of Ukraine to resist. Regardless, the UK's response had absolutely zilch, naff all, nada, nothing to do with Brexit. Lord Snooty is just desperate to find some sodden plank to cling onto in the sea of shit he has helped sink the country into.

[whelk]

17 hours ago, badgerx16 said:

Moggy complaining that needing photo ID at the local elections cost the Tories votes - guess who was Leader of the Commons with responsibility to get the legislation through the House.

Blatant admission from JRM that they were trying to Gerrymander to stop the young voting and openly complaining didn’t do what they hoped and impacted elderly Tory voters. Should be a scandal in itself but standards so low he will get away with and still convince some mugs he’s on your side crusading against the elites.

[sadoldgit]

39 minutes ago, whelk said:

Blatant admission from JRM that they were trying to Gerrymander to stop the young voting and openly complaining didn’t do what they hoped and impacted elderly Tory voters. Should be a scandal in itself but standards so low he will get away with and still convince some mugs he’s on your side crusading against the elites.

Whilst the right wing media ignored The Haunted Pencil’s admission of Gerrymandering because they were too busy slagging off Starmer for future Gerrymandering by looking at lowering the voting age and giving the vote to settled foreign nationals.

Meanwhile we have a small bunch of right wing nut jobs (NatCons) looking to undermine Sunak and the odious Suella Braverman making her pitch for the leadership of the Tory Party.

Fair play to Starmer (so far) for rapidly dealing with any sniff of Momentum disruption within his party. Sunak on the other hand does nothing whilst the nasty faction of his party get the same news coverage as Sunak does with Zelensky. If he had any balls he would sack Braverman but he won’t so she will continue to embarrass him and continue to lose more floating votes.

Starmer knows what Blair knew. For Labour to win elections now days they have to appeal to the centrists. What Sunak needs to understand is that is where the votes are and the more media attention the far right of his party get, the more he is on course to get destroyed in next year’s election.

[whelk]

2 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Whilst the right wing media ignored The Haunted Pencil’s admission of Gerrymandering because they were too busy slagging off Starmer for future Gerrymandering by looking at lowering the voting age and giving the vote to settled foreign nationals.

Meanwhile we have a small bunch of right wing nut jobs (NatCons) looking to undermine Sunak and the odious Suella Braverman making her pitch for the leadership of the Tory Party.

Fair play to Starmer (so far) for rapidly dealing with any sniff of Momentum disruption within his party. Sunak on the other hand does nothing whilst the nasty faction of his party get the same news coverage as Sunak does with Zelensky. If he had any balls he would sack Braverman but he won’t so she will continue to embarrass him and continue to lose more floating votes.

Starmer knows what Blair knew. For Labour to win elections now days they have to appeal to the centrists. What Sunak needs to understand is that is where the votes are and the more media attention the far right of his party get, the more he is on course to get destroyed in next year’s election.

I think if Braverman ever became leader (she won’t) she would eclipse Truss in being out of her depth and competency level. Agree Sunak pathetic not dumping her. Weak weak weak!

Edited 16 May, 2023 by whelk

[sadoldgit]

Another day, another vile report that demonstrates the complete lack of humanity displayed by our current Home Secretary and would be next leader of the Tory Party. And some would have us believe that this is a bunch of “pinkos”. Another step towards the move to becoming a NatC party.

I can imagine her physically signing every letter herself with one hand whilst smirking and stroking a fluffy white cat with the other.

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/16/afghan-families-yorkshire-eviction-letters-from-suella-braverman

Edited 17 May, 2023 by sadoldgit
Typo

[Tamesaint]

The certainties of life - Death, Taxes and the Tourette Boys posting adverse reactions to Soggy's posts.  🙂

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Tamesaint said:

The certainties of life - Death, Taxes and the Tourette Boys posting adverse reactions to Soggy's posts.  🙂

And you mentioning it

#triggered

[edprice1984]

Clearly there is a fundamental battle going on at the heart of the Conservative Party and one that is likely going to leave them in the political wilderness for many years. The main reason is the infiltration of an Evangelical Christian element (imported from the US) and an attempt to win elections on 'Culture War' topics.

The issue however is that even when we were a far more Christian country than today, overt religious comments have always been generally dismissed by the UK electorate.

Faith is seen as a private affair in the UK (especially in England), unlike in the US where it is often the total opposite. As we increasingly have moved to more of a secular society, any politician who expresses their religious convictions publicly is often seen as a bit of a crank! It is one of the reasons, I suspect, that many watching the Coronation felt uncomfortable and possible confused with the religious aspect, despite the fact that the Monarch is the Head of the CofE.

The other part of this is that most people don't care about the culture war stuff, again because it barely affects their day to day lives. Most ordinary voters care about jobs, healthcare and their own security. If the economy was booming, the Conservatives wouldn't be talking about pronouns, immigration or anything like that - it would be rightly "Vote Conservative, it's the economy stupid" or something to that effect. 

The 'normal' Conservatives (and I include Rishi in that category, for now at least) are going to be squeezed out by the lunatics unless they really start to push back. But Brexit has already torn away the Centre/Left leaning One Nation Tory, so I imagine there isn't much fight left in them.

 

 

[Tamesaint]

1 hour ago, edprice1984 said:

The 'normal' Conservatives (and I include Rishi in that category, for now at least) are going to be squeezed out by the lunatics unless they really start to push back. But Brexit has already torn away the Centre/Left leaning One Nation Tory, so I imagine there isn't much fight left in them.

 

 

Rishi could decide to tackle the lunatics by sacking Suella Braverman who seems to be their most prominent champion. Doubt that he has the guts to do so.  

[rallyboy]

Rishi is emerging as a no-trick pony.

His only response to any situation is to parrot bland slogans about delivering and stopping boats, he has literally no other mode.

At least he has his basketball career to fall back on.

[egg]

4 hours ago, rallyboy said:

Rishi is emerging as a no-trick pony.

His only response to any situation is to parrot bland slogans about delivering and stopping boats, he has literally no other mode.

At least he has his basketball career to fall back on.

It's looking that way. So far I can't think of anything of substance that he's said or done. 

[sadoldgit]

5 hours ago, rallyboy said:

Rishi is emerging as a no-trick pony.

His only response to any situation is to parrot bland slogans about delivering and stopping boats, he has literally no other mode.

At least he has his basketball career to fall back on.

I heard an interview with him recently when he was asked about how he felt about losing in three different ways by the interviewer and on each occasion he managed to answer the same way while managing, parrot fashion, to shoehorn in working day and night to deliver for the country along with his 5 pledges. Reminds me of the meaningless  “strong and stable government” mantra under May.

The Tories have completely run out of ideas and gas. Sunak is so far removed from knowing what “normal people” want and need it is embarrassing but they can’t get rid of him before the next election so the lame duck party is stuck with an AI programmed parrot and now, hopefully, their goose is finally cooked.

[Turkish]

32 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

I heard an interview with him recently when he was asked about how he felt about losing in three different ways by the interviewer and on each occasion he managed to answer the same way while managing, parrot fashion, to shoehorn in working day and night to deliver for the country along with his 5 pledges. Reminds me of the meaningless  “strong and stable government” mantra under May.

The Tories have completely run out of ideas and gas. Sunak is so far removed from knowing what “normal people” want and need it is embarrassing but they can’t get rid of him before the next election so the lame duck party is stuck with an AI programmed parrot and now, hopefully, their goose is finally cooked.

Not for the first time on this forum, we feel let down by 5 pledges.

[sadoldgit]

So then, Suella Braverman. Darling of the far right and would be next leader of the Tory Party in waiting.

Apparently she doesn’t care for migrants because they don’t share the same values as us.

This is the same Suella Braverman who asked if she could put a parking ticket on her expenses. The same Suella Braverman who tried to find ways of dealing with a speeding ticket so that no one would find out about it. The same Suella Braverman who failed to declare that she previously had dealings with the same people in Rwanda that set up the deportation arrangements with us.

The list of government ministers found to have broken the rules is getting longer and longer. So then Suella, the question is what is the difference between migrants not sharing our values and the likes of yourself, Patel, Johnson, Sunak, Hancock, Raab etc. also not sharing British values of fair play and following the rules?

Perhaps we should deport rule breaking cabinet ministers to Rwanda as well?
 

[Holmes_and_Watson]

1 hour ago, sadoldgit said:

So then, Suella Braverman. Darling of the far right and would be next leader of the Tory Party in waiting.

Apparently she doesn’t care for migrants because they don’t share the same values as us.

This is the same Suella Braverman who asked if she could put a parking ticket on her expenses. The same Suella Braverman who tried to find ways of dealing with a speeding ticket so that no one would find out about it. The same Suella Braverman who failed to declare that she previously had dealings with the same people in Rwanda that set up the deportation arrangements with us.

The list of government ministers found to have broken the rules is getting longer and longer. So then Suella, the question is what is the difference between migrants not sharing our values and the likes of yourself, Patel, Johnson, Sunak, Hancock, Raab etc. also not sharing British values of fair play and following the rules?

Perhaps we should deport rule breaking cabinet ministers to Rwanda as well?
 

I was wondering if you were okay SOG, having not posted on this while it was breaking. Glad things are as they should be.

Clearly, when she said "same values as us" the us referred to duplicitous, self serving, egotistical swivel eyed politicians, who have to have the truth dragged out of them. So, looking at it in those terms, she's right in not being able to recognise normal folk wanting a better future for their families, and with skills to offer us.

I was going to say that there would presumably be a fast track for crooked politicians looking to move here, to fit people she would recognise. But despite banging on about it year after year, they have shown zero control over anyone getting in.

[sadoldgit]

12 hours ago, Holmes_and_Watson said:

I was wondering if you were okay SOG, having not posted on this while it was breaking. Glad things are as they should be.

Clearly, when she said "same values as us" the us referred to duplicitous, self serving, egotistical swivel eyed politicians, who have to have the truth dragged out of them. So, looking at it in those terms, she's right in not being able to recognise normal folk wanting a better future for their families, and with skills to offer us.

I was going to say that there would presumably be a fast track for crooked politicians looking to move here, to fit people she would recognise. But despite banging on about it year after year, they have shown zero control over anyone getting in.

👍 I was waiting to see how it played out. More below. 
 

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/may/23/civil-servants-have-to-fact-check-suella-bravermans-claims-to-cabinet

[Holmes_and_Watson]

No inquiry says PM , as all concerned try to to break speeding limits peddling away from it. 🙂

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65694017

From what I heard on the radio, she's come out with obvious fib she should have said at the start. Trying to avoid mentioning wh she'd spoken to entirely just dug her deeper and deeper into it.

[buctootim]

On 13/05/2023 at 22:40, Weston Super Saint said:

All of soggy's posts are confusing.

Have you tried seeing a dog behaviour  trainer?

[Warriorsaint]

On 14/05/2023 at 11:49, Lord Duckhunter said:

Can you put threads on ignore? 

No just people you can’t argue with eh muntgrunter?

[farawaysaint]

20 years later and somehow elections still offer this binary choice. 

[The Cat]

Wasn't sure where to post this but it's Tory related so here will do.

The full email sent to every one of George Osborne's wedding guests. It's going to make for an uncomfortable day!

https://pastebin.com/3DRZpzDP

 

[edprice1984]

Someone is not happy with Osborne. I wonder how much of this will end up in the press.  A little harder to publish this stuff in National Newspapers...

[Tamesaint]

9 hours ago, The Cat said:

Wasn't sure where to post this but it's Tory related so here will do.

The full email sent to every one of George Osborne's wedding guests. It's going to make for an uncomfortable day!

https://pastebin.com/3DRZpzDP

 

Sounds as though it was not only the country that George Osborne was shagging.

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

19 hours ago, edprice1984 said:

Someone is not happy with Osborne. I wonder how much of this will end up in the press.  A little harder to publish this stuff in National Newspapers...

There's a new BBC sexual deviant in the news this morning which will help it get swept under the carpet.

[badgerx16]

The Conservative and Unionist Party - the party of high taxation.......

"The government is on course to oversee the biggest tax-raising Parliament since records began, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies' analysis.

The IFS forecasts taxes will amount to about 37% of national income by the next general election, due in 2024.

That would be a level not seen since 1948, just after World War Two."

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66945729

[whelk]

10 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

The Conservative and Unionist Party - the party of high taxation.......

"The government is on course to oversee the biggest tax-raising Parliament since records began, according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies' analysis.

The IFS forecasts taxes will amount to about 37% of national income by the next general election, due in 2024.

That would be a level not seen since 1948, just after World War Two."

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66945729

The class war party. War on the working class

[sadoldgit]

So we are now being told that the things Sunak said he would do last week are now only “illustrations” of things that could be done 🤔

Great speech today from Starmer who looks more like our PM in waiting every week and is certainly the grown up in the room when compared with Sunak.

Labour have had an excellent conference and look energised and ready to get on with the changes we need as opposed to the busted flush that is the Tory party.

The election can’t come soon enough.

[Weston Super Saint]

My prediction - enough Sweaties will vote SNP (literally, just because!) which will return a hung parliament.

The Lib Dems will then become king maker and throw their hat in with Labour. 

[rooney]

The City liked Keir's Speech yesterday as the FTSE soared away. The POLLs were kind to him too.

[Sheaf Saint]

14 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said:

My prediction - enough Sweaties will vote SNP (literally, just because!) which will return a hung parliament.

The Lib Dems will then become king maker and throw their hat in with Labour. 

I think this is probably spot on. The SNP will lose a fair amount of support after the recent financial scandals, but will still retain enough seats to make it difficult for Labour to win an overall majority.

Lab/Lib Dem coalition is looking the most likely outcome, but despite their catastrophic handling of literally everything in recent years, the Tories will still get millions of votes and make it a closer run thing than it really should be.

[Weston Super Saint]

5 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

I think this is probably spot on. The SNP will lose a fair amount of support after the recent financial scandals, but will still retain enough seats to make it difficult for Labour to win an overall majority.

Lab/Lib Dem coalition is looking the most likely outcome, but despite their catastrophic handling of literally everything in recent years, the Tories will still get millions of votes and make it a closer run thing than it really should be.

So far, I don't think Starmer has done / said enough to sway the swing voters.  He hasn't really made any concrete promises (pretty much sums up modern politics).

I think the Lib Dems will be seeing a massive increase winning the 'anyone but Tories' vote which Labour seem to be relying on....