Israel

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

So, are we at least in agreement that there is no solution to this problem? (that both sides are ever going to agree to)

With the current Israeli Government, yes.

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

But would you be operating in 1947 with advanced knowledge of what was to come ? Hypothetical thought games are great fun, but solve nothing; do you ignore the Balfour Declaration, what do you do with thousands upon thousands of displaced Jews in post-Holocaust Europe. ? What if, in 1919, the British had granted Prince Faisal the Kingdom they promised for his support in fighting the Ottomans ?

We are where we are, and somebody, somehow, has to knit a solution out of the current fog of hatred and violence.

I think that convoluted non-answer speaks for itself. 

[badgerx16]

1 minute ago, hypochondriac said:

I think that convoluted non-answer speaks for itself. 

Convoluted ?

What would you do, oh great and wise one ?

Edited April 12 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

With the current Israeli Government, yes.

Presumably your solution would involve pushing for elected government or spokespeople to act on behalf of the Palestinian people? If we are accepting that Hamas do not speak for them. 

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

Convoluted ?

What would you do, oh great and wise one ?

I just wanted to know if you would have supported the formation of the state of Israel if you knew it would have displaced some Palestinians. 

Edited April 12 by hypochondriac

[badgerx16]

Just now, hypochondriac said:

I just wanted to know if you would have supported the formation of the state of Israel if you knew it would displace some Palestinians. 

It was a quick and dirty solution to try to sideline the problems arising from the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and later the end of WW2. The British were the colonial power post 1918, and up to 1947 were the target of Jewish terrorism, led by many future Israeli political leaders. Personally, given my more modern aspect and knowledge probably not, but then that would bring a whole load of new problems. I would probably have given Faisal what he was promised, but the British at the time were arrogant and dismissive of the "'fuzzies"'.

As I said,  looking back and playing thought games can be great fun, but the issues are in the "'here and now"'.

[badgerx16]

11 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Presumably your solution would involve pushing for elected government or spokespeople to act on behalf of the Palestinian people? If we are accepting that Hamas do not speak for them. 

Somebody has to speak for them, and realistically it should be their choice. Regardless, it is moot whilst Netanyahu's coalition is in power.

[trousers]

27 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

With the current Israeli Government, yes.

Has there ever been an Israeli government that would countenance compromise? 

(Apologies for my genuine ignorance, I've never really followed or researched this 'conflict'... which might actually put me in a good position given the largely polarised views that the 'experts' seem to have on the matter... )

Edited April 12 by trousers

[badgerx16]

2 minutes ago, trousers said:

Has there ever been an Israeli government that would countenance compromise? 

(Apologies for my ignorance, I've never really followed or researched this 'conflict'... which might actually put me in a good position given the largely polarised views that the 'experts' seem to have on the matter... )

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimon_Peres

[whelk]

1 hour ago, egg said:

It's not complicated.

Yet you think it is very simple to solve and only one side to blame for that. 

[egg]

52 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Literally every Arab country, terrorist group and militia which denies Israel's right to exist as a country at all. That's been explained Christ knows how many times, we're going around in circles here, I'm done. 

I'll put it another way. Who's suggesting it as a credible solution? Everyone knows that ain't an option. The wider world supports two states. If there's a willingness on Israel's part to achieve that, we've got a start. 

[egg]

4 minutes ago, whelk said:

Yet you think it is very simple to solve and only one side to blame for that. 

I've never said that Whelk. You know that. 

[whelk]

Netanyahu’s government are dreadful IMO however I’m not sure 7/10 wouldn’t have happened had there been more liberal government open to a two state solution in power. 

[whelk]

25 minutes ago, trousers said:

Has there ever been an Israeli government that would countenance compromise? 

(Apologies for my genuine ignorance, I've never really followed or researched this 'conflict'... which might actually put me in a good position given the largely polarised views that the 'experts' seem to have on the matter... )

I think your time would be better spent Trousers fact checking Hypo and Egg on their ‘100th time’ claims. 

[trousers]

24 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimon_Peres

Cheers Badger. With repeated apologies for my ignorance in these matters, is it likely that Hammas would now be acting differently if someone like Peres was currently at the helm?

[whelk]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

It was a rhetorical post aimed at the repeated jibe "Do you believe in the formation of Israel ?"

Jibes lol. It is a pertinent question given some of the views seem to think the creation of Israel is the issue and they are colonial imposters. Makes supporting the good guys easier though eh 

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

I think your time would be better spent Trousers fact checking Hypo and Egg on their ‘100th time’ claims. 

I find it more productive not to 'take sides' when researching something I don't know much about...

[egg]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Netanyahu’s government are dreadful IMO however I’m not sure 7/10 wouldn’t have happened had there been more liberal government open to a two state solution in power. 

I think it wouldn't have happened if there hadn't been the escalation of West Bank raids/detentions and settlements. That, plus the increasingly right wing rhetoric gave hamas enough justification to press the fuck it button which in turn gave Israel enough justification to press the we'll fuck you up properly button. 

Fanciful or otherwise, the focus must be on the solution not the problem, otherwise like this thread, it'll go round in ever decreasing circles. 

[egg]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Jibes lol. It is a pertinent question given some of the views seem to think the creation of Israel is the issue and they are colonial imposters. Makes supporting the good guys easier though eh 

I think everyone on here seems to support the Israeli right to exist. I'm still unclear exactly who believes their actions wrong (pre and / or post 7/10 - I think some seem unable to look pre), and exactly who feels that the Palestinians have a right to a free  state alongside Israel. 

[badgerx16]

12 minutes ago, whelk said:

Jibes lol. It is a pertinent question given some of the views seem to think the creation of Israel is the issue and they are colonial imposters. Makes supporting the good guys easier though eh 

Who are these "'good guys' ?

Edited April 12 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

15 minutes ago, egg said:

I think it wouldn't have happened if there hadn't been the escalation of West Bank raids/detentions and settlements. That, plus the increasingly right wing rhetoric gave hamas enough justification to press the fuck it button which in turn gave Israel enough justification to press the we'll fuck you up properly button. 

Fanciful or otherwise, the focus must be on the solution not the problem, otherwise like this thread, it'll go round in ever decreasing circles. 

It was nothing to do with pressing a fuck you up properly button. They simply saw an opening and took it and it's laughable to suggest they wouldn't do the same thing again and again given the opportunity. They do it because they are at least partly motivated by their interpretation of their religion. You can't reason with a hardline religion and what Israel have rightly reasoned is that the sane response to this is to ramp up security and try to prevent them from doing it again, not peace and love and giving them the chance to repeat their atrocities. 

Edited April 12 by hypochondriac

[whelk]

17 minutes ago, trousers said:

I find it more productive not to 'take sides' when researching something I don't know much about...

That’s why I suggested counting posts

Edited April 12 by whelk

[whelk]

8 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

Who are these "'good guys' ?

In the 6th form hippy world the Palestinians

[hypochondriac]

1 hour ago, badgerx16 said:

It was a quick and dirty solution to try to sideline the problems arising from the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and later the end of WW2. The British were the colonial power post 1918, and up to 1947 were the target of Jewish terrorism, led by many future Israeli political leaders. Personally, given my more modern aspect and knowledge probably not, but then that would bring a whole load of new problems. I would probably have given Faisal what he was promised, but the British at the time were arrogant and dismissive of the "'fuzzies"'.

As I said,  looking back and playing thought games can be great fun, but the issues are in the "'here and now"'.

Right so it was a quick and dirty solution and you probably wouldn't have supported the formation of the Israeli state. Thanks for answering the question. 

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Right so it was a quick and dirty solution and you probably wouldn't have supported the formation of the Israeli state. Thanks for answering the question. 

In 1947 would you have supported it? If so, why ?

Hindsight is such a wonderful gift.

Edited April 12 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

14 minutes ago, egg said:

I think everyone on here seems to support the Israeli right to exist. I'm still unclear exactly who believes their actions wrong (pre and / or post 7/10 - I think some seem unable to look pre), and exactly who feels that the Palestinians have a right to a free  state alongside Israel. 

If Palestinians openly opposed Hamas, supported the return of hostages and publicly stated their desire to work towards peace whilst recognising Israel's right to exist then I would 100% agree with those calling for a solution and for Israel to sort this out. But this will never happen because there's no evidence that they believe or will do any of these things. 

[hypochondriac]

3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

In 1947 would you have supported it?

Yes.

[egg]

8 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

It was nothing to do with pressing a fuck you up properly button. They simply saw an opening and took it and it's laughable to suggest they wouldn't do the same thing again and again given the opportunity. They do it because they are at least partly motivated by their interpretation of their religion. You can't reason with a hardline religion and what Israel have rightly reasoned is that the sane response to this is to ramp up security and try to prevent them from doing it again, not peace and love and giving them the chance to repeat their atrocities. 

Clueless, and blinkered to what's happening, and been happening.

Do you even acknowledge that Israel are part of the problem, and therefore need to change to facilitate a solution. For clarity, the Palestinians are and need to. 

 

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

If Palestinians openly opposed Hamas, supported the return of hostages and publicly stated their desire to work towards peace whilst recognising Israel's right to exist then I would 100% agree with those calling for a solution and for Israel to sort this out. But this will never happen because there's no evidence that they believe or will do any of these things. 

Whilst Israel effectively occupy the West Bank and continue to build illegal settlements why should they ?

Edited April 12 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

Just now, badgerx16 said:

Whilst Israel effectively occupy the West Bank why should they ?

Whilst Israel occupy the West Bank they should support the holding of innocent hostages and the raping and murdering of Hamas?

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, egg said:

Clueless, and blinkered to what's happening, and been happening.

Do you even acknowledge that Israel are part of the problem, and therefore need to change to facilitate a solution. For clarity, the Palestinians are and need to. 

 

Like I have said repeatedly, once the hostages have been returned and Hamas has been dismantled for a generation there will hopefully then be an opportunity for negotiation to work towards a process for peace that will hopefully involve both sides being free from violence and this will of course mean compromise and change on both sides. The hope would be that those doing the negotiating are not ideologically captured by fantasy religion and want to work towards a real solution. 

[badgerx16]

44 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Whilst Israel occupy the West Bank they should support the holding of innocent hostages and the raping and murdering of Hamas?

If you were a Palestinian living currently on the West Bank, seeing your land forcibly taken away and settled by illegal incomers, being sniped at by those same people whilst the Police stand by and watch, would you just sit on your hands and accept your fate ?

[badgerx16]

45 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Like I have said repeatedly, once the hostages have been returned and Hamas has been dismantled for a generation there will hopefully then be an opportunity for negotiation to work towards a process for peace that will hopefully involve both sides being free from violence and this will of course mean compromise and change on both sides. The hope would be that those doing the negotiating are not ideologically captured by fantasy religion and want to work towards a real solution. 

And where would the Palestinians be living ? Without the West Bank and probably Gaza how can there be a 2 state solution ?

Edited April 12 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

16 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

If you were a Palestinian living currently on the West Bank, seeing your land forcibly taken away and settled by illegal incomers, being sniped at by those same people whilst the Police stand by and watch, would you just sit on your hands and accept your fate ?

Where did I say that? Absolutely huge jump from that to supporting raping, murdering and kidnapping of hostages. 

[hypochondriac]

15 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

And where would the Palestinians be living ? Without the West Bank and probably Gaza how can there be a 2 state solution ?

That's what part of the discussions would focus on I'd imagine. 

[badgerx16]

16 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

That's what part of the discussions would focus on I'd imagine. 

And until these discussions take place further expansion of the settlements continues. I accept that one easy PR win for Hamas is to release the remaining hostages, but will Israel stop the settlements ? However the discussions/ negotiations go, every day brings more Israelis in the West Bank who will fight tooth and nail against eviction.

[badgerx16]

21 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Where did I say that? Absolutely huge jump from that to supporting raping, murdering and kidnapping of hostages. 

"One man's terrorist....."'

[hypochondriac]

1 minute ago, badgerx16 said:

"One man's terrorist....."'

Yeah that's what that Labour trade union member said. He was wrong too. There's no ambiguity that Hamas are a terrorist organisation. 

[badgerx16]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Yeah that's what that Labour trade union member said. He was wrong too. There's no ambiguity that Hamas are a terrorist organisation. 

I agree, but I'm not Palestinian.

Then again Archbishop Makarios, Nelson Mandela,  Menachim Begin, Martin McGuiness.........

Edited April 12 by badgerx16

[hypochondriac]

12 minutes ago, badgerx16 said:

I agree, but I'm not Palestinian.

Then again Archbishop Makarios, Nelson Mandela,  Menachim Begin, Martin McGuiness.........

So you equate the actions of Hamas to Nelson Mandela? Their actions are justified? 

[badgerx16]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

So you equate the actions of Hamas to Nelson Mandela? Their actions are justified? 

No. I was listing a number of people who had been accused and convicted of being terrorists, whilst their supporters viewed them as freedom fighters. ( 3 of those 4 were associated with opposing British colonial rule ), hence the "One man's terrorist......"' quote. It is a matter of personal perspective and experience.

If you want to find somebody to justify Hamas go find a Palestinian.

[Lord Duckhunter]

2 hours ago, egg said:

I think it wouldn't have happened if there hadn't been the escalation of West Bank raids/detentions and settlements.

One of the main reasons 7/10 happened was because Hamas/Iraq  was becoming increasingly concerned with the normalisation of relationships between Israel & other Arab nations, particularly Saudi Arabia. Don’t take my word for it, listen to R4 briefing room & an expert on Hamas terror gives that a significant factor. Let’s face it, they were right to be concerned as Arab nations don’t give much more of a fuck about Palestinians than Israel do. Therefore it’s arguable that a more moderate Israeli Government would have been further down the line on this path. He also said that Hamas hate PA, so would they really have the West Bank as the main motivation. 

 

 

[Fan The Flames]

6 hours ago, whelk said:

Bless. SOG’s MO seems to be rubbing off

Silly talk isn't it.

[sadoldgit]

8 hours ago, whelk said:

Bless. SOG’s MO seems to be rubbing off

What MO would that be? Calling out people who resort to throwing childish jibes around when tens of thousands of people have been and are being killed and maimed. Calling for an end to hostilities and the start of a process to find a lasting peace?

There is nothing “hippyish” about wanting the death and destruction to end or for the efforts of all parties to be directed to finding long term solutions to long standing problems.

Not only is it in the interests of the Israelis and Palestinians to stop killing each other, it is in the interests of the Middle East and everyone else for this to end. This has nothing to do with being a hippy and everything to do with being a normal, decent, rational human being. And if you are struggling with the concept, these people tend not to use laughing emojis under posts talking about loss of life or serious posts trying to address a serious situation as well as not using childish name calling to try and belittle serious posts.

[rallyboy]

6 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Like I have said repeatedly, once the hostages have been returned and Hamas has been dismantled for a generation 

Israel has just created the next two or three generations of terrorist.

[Sheaf Saint]

10 hours ago, hypochondriac said:

Like I have said repeatedly, once the hostages have been returned and Hamas has been dismantled for a generation there will hopefully then be an opportunity for negotiation to work towards a process for peace that will hopefully involve both sides being free from violence and this will of course mean compromise and change on both sides. The hope would be that those doing the negotiating are not ideologically captured by fantasy religion and want to work towards a real solution. 

Sadly that's very unlikely, on both sides.

[whelk]

5 hours ago, sadoldgit said:

Not only is it in the interests of the Israelis and Palestinians to stop killing each other, it is in the interests of the Middle East and everyone else for this to end

Well done you. Of course being simple minded you think you are arguing with people who love killing. 
 

if you were around in WW2 bet you would be chucking around pearls of wisdom like bet Germans or the Allies don’t like being killed. 

As you your MO - post piously and the label anyone who has a different opinion as hateful not like nice old you.  Nice and convenient but shows your very limited debating skills I’m afraid.

[whelk]

4 hours ago, rallyboy said:

Israel has just created the next two or three generations of terrorist.

And terrorism was dwindling up until 7/10? 

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, whelk said:

And terrorism was dwindling up until 7/10? 

Of course it didn’t, they were living under Israel’s blockade, reliant on international aid with little to no hope of ever being in a free country. When there is no alternative pathway to a better life, extremism is bound to thrive.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-per-cent-of-gaza-inhabitants-relied-on-international-aid-before-war

[whelk]

7 hours ago, aintforever said:

Of course it didn’t, they were living under Israel’s blockade, reliant on international aid with little to no hope of ever being in a free country. When there is no alternative pathway to a better life, extremism is bound to thrive.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/25/un-report-80-per-cent-of-gaza-inhabitants-relied-on-international-aid-before-war

From Israel’s perspective they are sorting a short-term problem that came to a head on 7/10 that demonstrated that their citizens were clearly not safe. They are not worrying about more Hamas supporters down the line as a result of their indiscriminate actions.