trousers Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: They have a track record of providing world class IT services. Examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Just now, badgerx16 said: They also have a track record of releasing poorly designed and tested large IT software suites. ( From somebody who knows ). And people/organisations would have to sign-off on what they want/accept and on any enduring/limited service support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: And people/organisations would have to sign-off on what they want/accept and on any enduring/limited service support. Oh indeed, but getting to the point where acceptance was signed off could, in my experience, be tortuous. Trying to convince their software developers and support engineers of the faults in what had been delivered was often a struggle - in fact at one point I told my boss that he either trusted me in a dispute over a server system's configuration with ICL, or I would resign. ( He backed me, they ultimately admitted I was right ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) 8 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: And people/organisations would have to sign-off on what they want/accept and on any enduring/limited service support. In my experience, executive management will often sign-off anything if it means meeting a target / deadline, regardless of the underlying quality of the service / product... 'We'll resolve any issues as they arise, without telling too many people of the severity, but at least we went live on time. #collectbonus' Edited January 8 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Just now, badgerx16 said: Oh indeed, but getting to the point where acceptance was signed off could, in my experience, be tortuous. Trying to convince their software developers and support engineers of the faults in what had been delivered was often a struggle - in fact at one point I told my boss that he either trusted me in a dispute over a server system's configuration with ICL, or I would resign. ( He backed me, they ultimately admitted I was right ). But this software/susyem was in operation, so had to have been signed-off for release. Just a fecking lazy comment to say "it was FJ who did it and why have they got loads of contracts" As you seem to know, there could be a million reasons, all nothing to do with the Service Provider, for this issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 I wondered when you usual suspects would get round to solely blaming the Tories. The problems started under Labour, Ed Davey & Vince Cable were heavily involved & the Tories have been in Government the past 13 years. Every single MP (bar the odd exception) said fuck all about it, and ignored it until the past couple of weeks. It’s a plague on all their houses, it’s the British Establishment that’s let these people down, the 3 major parties & the civil service. Not just the fucking Tories. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) 5 minutes ago, trousers said: In my experience, executive management will often sign-off anything if it means meeting a target / deadline, regardless of the underlying quality of the service / product... Bingo! And the issue, more so on public sector areas, is the sheer incompetence at holding suppliers to account. I have worked in this area and watched pretty senior departmental civil servants just do nothing (bar race to work from home at every opportunity) IT is very problematic. That is why the ITIL framework exists and is used for governance et al. Edited January 8 by AlexLaw76 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 5 hours ago, badgerx16 said: Would Sunak be bothered if it wasn't an election year ? ( And yes some might say the same about opposition politicians, but they are not yet in a position to actually take action ). Ed Davey was the postal affairs minister in the Coalition government, he was told of concerns about the Post Office’s faulty software. Alan Bates claims he sent the Lib Dem leader at least five letters when he was in office. Davey then earned £275,000 as a consultant with law firm Herbert Smith Freehills, who acted for the Post Office. The issue was first raised in 1999, some 11 years before the Tories were in power. We’ll never know if Sunak would bother if it wasn’t an election year, but opposition politicians were in a position to take action, and did fuck all about it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Just now, Lord Duckhunter said: Ed Davey was the postal affairs minister in the Coalition government, he was told of concerns about the Post Office’s faulty software. Alan Bates claims he sent the Lib Dem leader at least five letters when he was in office. Davey then earned £275,000 as a consultant with law firm Herbert Smith Freehills, who acted for the Post Office. The issue was first raised in 1999, some 11 years before the Tories were in power. We’ll never know if Sunak would bother if it wasn’t an election year, but opposition politicians were in a position to take action, and did fuck all about it as well. And a reason why Kier Starmer is pretty quiet, he played his part is prosecuting these people. of course, it was his job, but he was involved against them in some way. RallyBoy missed that out of his anti-tory rant. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 8 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: And a reason why Kier Starmer is pretty quiet, he played his part is prosecuting these people. of course, it was his job, but he was involved against them in some way. RallyBoy missed that out of his anti-tory rant. He played no part in prosecuting any of them. The Post Office raise their own private prosecutions, they don't go through the CPS. Just a lie that will be recycled over and over again social media for the rest of the year. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 12 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said: We’ll never know if Sunak would bother if it wasn’t an election year, Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, one would have thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 minute ago, CB Fry said: He played no part in prosecuting any of them. The Post Office raise their own private prosecutions, they don't go through the CPS. Just a lie that will be recycled over and over again social media for the rest of the year. "Yeah, but, Jimmy Savile...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 2 minutes ago, CB Fry said: He played no part in prosecuting any of them. The Post Office raise their own private prosecutions, they don't go through the CPS. Just a lie that will be recycled over and over again social media for the rest of the year. Yes, I was incorrect on that part. Jus re-read the article about his involvement (or lack of). 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 45 minutes ago, trousers said: Examples? Yes i can give you a few, they do $billion contracts with the MOD for one. Although they should be hauled over the coals for Post Office (they still work with them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 37 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: But this software/susyem was in operation, so had to have been signed-off for release. Just a fecking lazy comment to say "it was FJ who did it and why have they got loads of contracts" As you seem to know, there could be a million reasons, all nothing to do with the Service Provider, for this issue The. PO were told by FUJITSU there were no issues; FUJITSU lied, the PO were too lazy/incompetent to challenge this. In the case I experienced it was a major upgrade to a database system that exhibited problems immediately after implementation. ICL were trying to convince my boss that an expensive hardware upgrade was required to overcome the issue, I proved their database indexes were incorrectly defined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said: They have a track record of providing world class IT services. 1 hour ago, trousers said: Examples? 14 minutes ago, Turkish said: Yes i can give you a few, they do $billion contracts with the MOD for one. How do we know that those contracts are "world class IT services" though? Edited January 8 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnersaint Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Gillian Keegan’s husband been involved at a senior level with both Horizon and Fujitsu. In fact he was CEO. I wonder if his rise through to that position was based on merit or all part of the grift? Former chair Simon Blagdon has donated £365000 to, guess which party? I’m not saying there’s something going on here, but makes you wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 2 minutes ago, trousers said: How do we know that those contracts are "world class IT services" though? I said they have a track record of providing world class IT services, not that the UK taxpayer/PO necessarily gets such services. You find you get the service you pay for (in both coin and effort). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) 4 minutes ago, trousers said: How do we know that those contracts are "world class IT services" though? they wouldn't still be working with the MOD if they werent and we'd all probably be dead. Edited January 8 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted January 8 Author Share Posted January 8 (edited) 31 minutes ago, CB Fry said: He played no part in prosecuting any of them. The Post Office raise their own private prosecutions, they don't go through the CPS. Just a lie that will be recycled over and over again social media for the rest of the year. And he personally let Jimmy Savile run riot Trousers beat me to it Edited January 8 by whelk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted January 8 Author Share Posted January 8 55 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said: That is why the ITIL framework exists and is used for governance et al. Now that is a racket. Guarantees fuck all other than waste of space people finding jobs where they can bore others telling them how essential it is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whelk Posted January 8 Author Share Posted January 8 5 minutes ago, Turkish said: they wouldn't still be working with the MOD if they werent and we'd all probably be dead. I hope it is only us who can tinker with the nuclear codes. Hate to think Russians would be reconciling and altering balances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Turkish said: they wouldn't still be working with the MOD if they werent and we'd all probably be dead. You have more faith in a Government's ability to run a department efficiently than me then... When I had a meeting with a couple of guys from Fujitsu's defence IT division a couple of years ago they came across as somewhat amateur / behind the times... Could've been a one-off I guess.... Edited January 8 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 It’s yet another example of blind faith in technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 6 minutes ago, whelk said: Now that is a racket. Guarantees fuck all other than waste of space people finding jobs where they can bore others telling them how essential it is. Absolutely this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) 8 minutes ago, whelk said: I hope it is only us who can tinker with the nuclear codes. Hate to think Russians would be reconciling and altering balances. FUJITSU will have issued a guarantee that there are no remote access routes. No sir. none whatsoever. Edited January 8 by badgerx16 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 6 minutes ago, trousers said: You have more faith in a Government's ability to run a department efficiently than me then... When I had a meeting with a couple of guys from Fujitsu's defence IT division a couple of years ago they came across as somewhat amateur / behind the times... Could've been a one-off I guess.... I've worked with them on and off for a while. Quite a slow, clunky organisation but the area i deal with they are pretty efficient and knowledgeable, it's a huge organisation of course so sure there are some passengers like all companies of that size. We are however quite a small part in the other solutions they deliver so i cant really comment on other areas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) 4 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: FUJITSU will have issued a guarantee that there are no remote access routes. No sir. none whatsoever. Live scenes from the Fujitsu IT operations centre... 😂 Edited January 8 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 1 minute ago, Turkish said: I've worked with them on and off for a while. Quite a slow, clunky organisation but the area i deal with they are pretty efficient and knowledgeable, it's a huge organisation of course so sure there are some passengers like all companies of that size. We are however quite a small part in the other solutions they deliver so i cant really comment on other areas. Fairy nuff 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLaw76 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 3 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: FUJITSU will have issued a guarantee that there are no remote access routes. No sir. none whatsoever. Some of their CISCO routers were very easy to get into (apparently). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Just now, AlexLaw76 said: Some of their CISCO routers were very easy to get into (apparently). not surprised at that at all. Cisco are amateurs in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rallyboy Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 If I was going to choose a hill to die on it wouldn't be Mount Fujitsu, but each to their own. 🤡 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 (edited) In the HoC this evening one MP raised the interesting conspiracy theory that the PO might have used the Horizon prosecutions to expedite a program of closing sub-postoffices as a cost cutting measure. ( Under Paula Vennels the PO went from being a loss making concern to profitability ). Edited January 8 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 11 hours ago, CB Fry said: He played no part in prosecuting any of them. The Post Office raise their own private prosecutions, they don't go through the CPS. Just a lie that will be recycled over and over again social media for the rest of the year. I'm not so sure. This article - although an Express piece with Nigel stirring the pot - suggests that the CPS was involved with 6 appeals : Quote The Post Office website also indicates the CPS did play a role in the scandal. In a "frequently asked questions about the scandal" section of its website, the Post Office said there were six appeals in which the CPS was the respondent rather than the Post Office. One of the six was conceded, and the conviction overturned, with five opposed. No smoke without fire, there is a link to the post office website which confirms what is quoted in the Express : https://corporate.postoffice.co.uk/en/horizon-scandal-pages/faqs#:~:text=Post Office has not undertaken,authority to bring private prosecutions. It seems likely that Sir Keir may well have been involved whilst at the CPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 So we have this disgraceful scandal and the double knock of the despicably slow response by the authorities and the muppets are scrabbling around trying to find a way to pin it on Kier Starmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 39 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: I'm not so sure. This article - although an Express piece with Nigel stirring the pot - suggests that the CPS was involved with 6 appeals : No smoke without fire, there is a link to the post office website which confirms what is quoted in the Express : https://corporate.postoffice.co.uk/en/horizon-scandal-pages/faqs#:~:text=Post Office has not undertaken,authority to bring private prosecutions. It seems likely that Sir Keir may well have been involved whilst at the CPS. I, for one, a absolutely outraged that ITV didn't focus the drama on those 6 appeals, because it's pretty clear now that it is all Kier Starmer Kier Starmer Kier Starmer Kier Starmer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 8 minutes ago, CB Fry said: I, for one, a absolutely outraged that ITV didn't focus the drama on those 6 appeals, because it's pretty clear now that it is all Kier Starmer Kier Starmer Kier Starmer Kier Starmer Sadly, a typical response from you. You stated clearly that he played no part whatsoever and to suggest otherwise was a lie for social media. I've countered that with evidence that he was likely involved with a limited number of cases whilst heading up the CPS. At no point have I tried to lay the blame at his door, to suggest I have is just childish wailing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 26 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said: So we have this disgraceful scandal and the double knock of the despicably slow response by the authorities and the muppets are scrabbling around trying to find a way to pin it on Kier Starmer. They are all to blame. If only they'd be honest about the parts they played, maybe then the issues would be resolved more quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said: Sadly, a typical response from you. You stated clearly that he played no part whatsoever and to suggest otherwise was a lie for social media. I've countered that with evidence that he was likely involved with a limited number of cases whilst heading up the CPS. At no point have I tried to lay the blame at his door, to suggest I have is just childish wailing. Do you think the DPP is personally involved in, or even aware of, every case his Department handles ? Edited January 9 by badgerx16 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 19 minutes ago, badgerx16 said: Do you think the DPP is personally involved in, or even aware of, every case his Department handles ? Indeed. In the same way that the head of any department doesn't claim any credit for things that go well on the shop floor either... (That's not just a pop at Sir Kier, rather 'leaders' in general... ) Edited January 9 by trousers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 3 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said: They are all to blame. If only they'd be honest about the parts they played, maybe then the issues would be resolved more quickly. No they are not. There are people who bear the most responsibility, some of it criminal, and there are some following corporate/government orders and some minor part players. This notion that they are all to blame is the same as the 'they are all at it' bollocks that the tories float out through their media mates, when they are trying to obfuscate for their latest indiscretion. Don't fall for it WSS, you're better than that. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 5 hours ago, Fan The Flames said: So we have this disgraceful scandal and the double knock of the despicably slow response by the authorities and the muppets are scrabbling around trying to find a way to pin it on Kier Starmer. Not only Starmer but Ed Davey too. Buckle up. It’s election year and there will be a lot more of this from the usual suspects of flailing right of politics. They never let the truth get in the way of a good smear. Throw enough mud and some of it will stick. There are still some people who think that Starmer was to blame for the failure to bring Savile to justice before his death. News just in, Vennells is going to hand back her CBE. Something for the conspiracy theorists… No mention of Adam Crozier in the TV drama. Could it have anything to do with his involvement with ITV? Edited January 9 by sadoldgit Added text Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 4 hours ago, Weston Super Saint said: They are all to blame. If only they'd be honest about the parts they played, maybe then the issues would be resolved more quickly. If you mean “all” as in Government’s containing all 3 major parties, you are 100% right. Although that doesn’t seem to stop people putting it at The Fucking Tories door. The bird who first investigated it for the computer publication reckons it started with Blair being put under pressure by the Chinese Government. Reports state that Harperson told him it was flawed before it was rolled out, but he didn’t want to upset the Chinese. He’s subsequently blamed Mandleson. The Lib Dem’s we’re in charge of the post office during the coalition years, and Sir Ed Davey has some serious questions to answer, particularly after his spokesman claimed yesterday that he had been lied to “on an industrial scale” by the Post Office and other ministers. What did he know, and when? And who were the people who “lied on an industrial scale”. Alan Bates has claimed Davey “fobbed him off” despite 5 requests for meetings & it’s noticeable that the victims have started to call for him to step down from his leadership position. I don’t know who was responsible after the coalition, but surely they should have looked at this, basic competence would have meant alarm bells ringing as there was numerous prosecutions by then. I doubt the full truth will ever come out, or if it does the guilty politicians will be long out of office. No doubt they’ll offer up a few token sacrifices & a few might lose honours, but every party will have an incentive to kick it into the long grass until the public move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 21 minutes ago, sadoldgit said: Ed Davey too. Buckle up. It’s election year and there will be a lot more of this from the usual suspects of flailing right of politics. They never let the truth get in the way of a good smear. 🤡 Its the victims calling for his head, those fucking right wing nut jobs 😂 Whats the truth then old wise one, what do you know that the victims don’t? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said: 🤡 Its the victims calling for his head, those fucking right wing nut jobs 😂 Whats the truth then old wise one, what do you know that the victims don’t? Im sure he was recently at a village lunch with someone well know who can back up his opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 27 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said: If you mean “all” as in Government’s containing all 3 major parties, you are 100% right. Although that doesn’t seem to stop people putting it at The Fucking Tories door. The bird who first investigated it for the computer publication reckons it started with Blair being put under pressure by the Chinese Government. Reports state that Harperson told him it was flawed before it was rolled out, but he didn’t want to upset the Chinese. He’s subsequently blamed Mandleson. The Lib Dem’s we’re in charge of the post office during the coalition years, and Sir Ed Davey has some serious questions to answer, particularly after his spokesman claimed yesterday that he had been lied to “on an industrial scale” by the Post Office and other ministers. What did he know, and when? And who were the people who “lied on an industrial scale”. Alan Bates has claimed Davey “fobbed him off” despite 5 requests for meetings & it’s noticeable that the victims have started to call for him to step down from his leadership position. I don’t know who was responsible after the coalition, but surely they should have looked at this, basic competence would have meant alarm bells ringing as there was numerous prosecutions by then. I doubt the full truth will ever come out, or if it does the guilty politicians will be long out of office. No doubt they’ll offer up a few token sacrifices & a few might lose honours, but every party will have an incentive to kick it into the long grass until the public move on. You're all Blair, Blair, Blair, Davey, Davey, Davey. Then you don't know who was responsible when the Tories were in power. You don't know because that info is not included in the shit you're spuing from your timeline. What a joker. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamesaint Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 8 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said: You're all Blair, Blair, Blair, Davey, Davey, Davey. Then you don't know who was responsible when the Tories were in power. You don't know because that info is not included in the shit you're spuing from your timeline. What a joker I blame ITV. If those useless tossers had got their act together and shown their drama earlier, say in 2012, instead of 2024 the subpostmasters would have already received justice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Vennels has handed back her CBE finally. Im sure the £5m she earnt whilst there with cushion the blow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said: If you mean “all” as in Government’s containing all 3 major parties, you are 100% right. Although that doesn’t seem to stop people putting it at The Fucking Tories door. The bird who first investigated it for the computer publication reckons it started with Blair being put under pressure by the Chinese Government. Reports state that Harperson told him it was flawed before it was rolled out, but he didn’t want to upset the Chinese. He’s subsequently blamed Mandleson. The Lib Dem’s we’re in charge of the post office during the coalition years, and Sir Ed Davey has some serious questions to answer, particularly after his spokesman claimed yesterday that he had been lied to “on an industrial scale” by the Post Office and other ministers. What did he know, and when? And who were the people who “lied on an industrial scale”. Alan Bates has claimed Davey “fobbed him off” despite 5 requests for meetings & it’s noticeable that the victims have started to call for him to step down from his leadership position. I don’t know who was responsible after the coalition, but surely they should have looked at this, basic competence would have meant alarm bells ringing as there was numerous prosecutions by then. I doubt the full truth will ever come out, or if it does the guilty politicians will be long out of office. No doubt they’ll offer up a few token sacrifices & a few might lose honours, but every party will have an incentive to kick it into the long grass until the public move on. Exactly this. The only part that so far doesn't appear to have a hand in the affair is the irellevant green party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 6 hours ago, badgerx16 said: Do you think the DPP is personally involved in, or even aware of, every case his Department handles ? I believe the DPP would be accountable for the actions in the same way that a CEO is accountable for what happens in a private company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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