Tonda Eckert

[Saint86]

3 hours ago, Football Special said:

I think I'd keep him just to wind up cunts like Henry Winter 

Has merits tbf.

[Fabrice29]

19 minutes ago, saintant said:

It's what nearly every ex pro footballer is saying but you know better.

The ones desperate for some engagement in their new career you mean? Why are you believing them over the actual players in our dressing room who actively raved about the details they were given whilst performances improved? 

[Saint86]

1 hour ago, James G said:

I think he'll go on to have a great career, but abroad. He'll need to ride the wave just now and see out any ban

I also don't think we spied on every team, because you can't. And I don't think the spying helped 

But, rules are rules

Any ban the FA give him will be for England only. If SR let him go, he will be in budesliga next season. He looks to be a top top manager in the making.

[trousers]

12 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Got to love some Saints fans. Fuming at the club, calling everything a disgrace for what has happened, but want to keep the main central to this all, because he seems like a decent manager (who cheats)

To comply with the dictionary defintion of a 'cheat' (which is probably a good place to start....) you have to knowingly "break rules to gain an unfair advantage"... do we have categorical evidence (yet) that Tonda 'knowingly' broke the rules?

(For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not trying to defend what he did... I'm just inclined to wait for it to be confirmed from him and/or the club that he did it knowingly, rather than ignorantly... until then we can't be 100% sure.... actually, even then we can't be 100% certain as there's always a chance he/they might be economical with the truth...)

p.s. apologies for the "mental gymnastics" again, m'lud

Edited 1 hour ago by trousers

[Hawkswood]

11 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Got to love some Saints fans. Fuming at the club, calling everything a disgrace for what has happened, but want to keep the main central to this all, because he seems like a decent manager (who cheats)

I came on here this morning about to add that I think he should be booted but after reading a few different points of view I have to admit I see things in a slightly different light plus Ive had a few days for things to calm down.

 

Anyway, I think the FA will ban him so doesn't really matter.

[SaintLondon]

The reality is that none of us truly know who knew what, and when. We’re led to believe there are text messages from Tonda that prove he knew what was happening, but I keep coming back to that interview where he said he wished he could speak openly about things. Unless he was just being deliberately cryptic, it feels like a strange thing to say if you were the person orchestrating the whole operation yourself.

Personally, I still think it’s more likely that Spors was heavily involved behind the scenes, but perhaps smart enough not to leave fingerprints all over it.

Either way, there is an enormous mess to clear up now and I’m not entirely sure where I’d even begin if I were tasked with rebuilding things. That said, part of me does think there could actually be some value, from a PR and trust perspective, in Tonda and the players coming out together in a unified way to acknowledge what’s happened and try to rebuild the relationship with the fans.

Now I know some people will immediately say “why would the players do that?” and there have been briefings suggesting they knew nothing about it, but if spying really was as widespread and embedded as we’re now being led to believe, I’m not sure I completely buy that narrative either.

The other part of me thinks it may ultimately come down to what the dressing room actually wants. If the players still believe they can work with him, trust him, and continue where they left off, then maybe - as mad as it sounds right now - there is an argument for keeping him. We’re almost certainly heading into next season with a weaker squad than this year’s and we need to give ourselves the best possible chance of stabilising and competing.

For what it’s worth, and whilst I’m still absolutely seething about all of this, ultimately I just want the club to move forward in the best way possible. My instinct is still that he has to go - if not purely from a football perspective then certainly from a PR and trust one - but I suppose I’m just trying to think through all the possible realities from here.

[James]

We won’t be able to keep Tonda, that decision is likely going to be taken out of our hands. My view is that we need to clear the decks as soon as possible and not wait for the FA investigation to drag all summer - let’s face it, they aren’t going to do us any favours by moving quickly. We need a new coaching team, to show the fans and the wider football world that we are moving on from this sorry saga.

[trousers]

2 minutes ago, Hawkswood said:

I came on here this morning about to add that I think he should be booted but after reading a few different points of view I have to admit I see things in a slightly different light plus Ive had a few days for things to calm down.

This really isn't the place for flexible and balanced thinking!

[Graziano94]

What I’m trying to understand is why the FA did not ban Bielsa after investigation 

 

[Hawkswood]

Just now, trousers said:

This really isn't the place for flexible and balanced thinking!

Sorry dude, wont let it happen again.

[Harry_SFC]

I'd imagine Eckert is more of the fall guy then anything. Obviously he's clearly a big part of it but I'm assuming the operation was set up by Spors. 

[saintant]

5 hours ago, trousers said:

If his position is untenable, wouldn't the club have sacked him by now*? Surely a quick 'win' for them in terms of getting (the majority of) fans back on board ASAP?

As such, can we read anything into the  fact that he hasn't been sacked 'immediately'...? 

(* I guess he may have already been sacked but the club are delaying the announcement for some reason)

Dragan has come over today so maybe he's handling the sackings and time frame based on when he arrived and got through all the meetings.

[RedArmy]

3 minutes ago, Fabrice29 said:

The ones desperate for some engagement in their new career you mean? Why are you believing them over the actual players in our dressing room who actively raved about the details they were given whilst performances improved? 

How the information was obtained is fairly irrelevant when it comes to the application of it and how that defines him as a manager. 

He’s not the only manager in world football to have players rave over his level of detail in match preparation and game plans. 
You still need to know what to do with that information and how to set your team up to win the game. 

 

[trousers]

4 minutes ago, SaintLondon said:

The reality is that none of us truly know who knew what, and when. We’re led to believe there are text messages from Tonda that prove he knew what was happening, but I keep coming back to that interview where he said he wished he could speak openly about things. Unless he was just being deliberately cryptic, it feels like a strange thing to say if you were the person orchestrating the whole operation yourself.

Personally, I still think it’s more likely that Spors was heavily involved behind the scenes, but perhaps smart enough not to leave fingerprints all over it.

Either way, there is an enormous mess to clear up now and I’m not entirely sure where I’d even begin if I were tasked with rebuilding things. That said, part of me does think there could actually be some value, from a PR and trust perspective, in Tonda and the players coming out together in a unified way to acknowledge what’s happened and try to rebuild the relationship with the fans.

Now I know some people will immediately say “why would the players do that?” and there have been briefings suggesting they knew nothing about it, but if spying really was as widespread and embedded as we’re now being led to believe, I’m not sure I completely buy that narrative either.

The other part of me thinks it may ultimately come down to what the dressing room actually wants. If the players still believe they can work with him, trust him, and continue where they left off, then maybe - as mad as it sounds right now - there is an argument for keeping him. We’re almost certainly heading into next season with a weaker squad than this year’s and we need to give ourselves the best possible chance of stabilising and competing.

For what it’s worth, and whilst I’m still absolutely seething about all of this, ultimately I just want the club to move forward in the best way possible. My instinct is still that he has to go - if not purely from a football perspective then certainly from a PR and trust one - but I suppose I’m just trying to think through all the possible realities from here.

Good post and totally agree with the bit in bold regarding the players being the key here (assuming the FA don't ban him anyway of course)

[trousers]

5 minutes ago, Graziano94 said:

What I’m trying to understand is why the FA did not ban Bielsa after investigation 

 

Yep, good point. Did they actually launch an investigation into him and they let him off without a ban, or was there no FA investigation / sanctions at all...?

[saintant]

5 hours ago, Solentarian said:

I really think we need to stop with this mentality. Yes, we broke the rules - but in a way that's basically insignificant compared the the industrial level cheating that football runs on. I'm sick of having to indulge the idea that what we did was a great injustice rather than a stupid but largely inconsequential breach of rules that should have been treated as such. 

It's probably too late, but it's just self-destructive to lose a promising young manager as well as the playoffs, and the penalty. If he's genuinely lost the players then we've no choice, but with hindsight we've done way too much self-flaggelation to appease a process that was rigged from the start. There's no credibility here to be had. 

Agree entirely. The outrage is funny really. It's as though football is and always has been a sport of integrity where the slightest rule break is greeted by cries of derision. These same journos and pundits fawn all over the big clubs like Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea etc who have and continue to do far worse than a little bit of spying that gained absolutely 0.01 in terms of Xg. Such hypocrites as they push their tongues ever further up the arses of the big clubs. Sickening.

[saintant]

4 hours ago, trousers said:

Winter is a turd that won't flush away. 

[Midfield_General]

TalkShite (yes, I know) reporter saying that Dragan has called a 'big meeting' at Staplewood this afternoon and that Tonda has been told to be at it. 

No idea if true, no further details, just sharing what they just said

[saintwbu]

3 minutes ago, trousers said:

Yep, good point. Did they actually launch an investigation into him and they let him off without a ban, or was there no FA investigation / sanctions at all...?

Google suggests FA opened an investigation but he and Leeds were just warned and it would be further investigated if more came to light. Sounds like a precedent to me…

[trousers]

7 minutes ago, saintant said:

Dragan has come over today so maybe he's handling the sackings and time frame based on when he arrived and got through all the meetings.

I'm a tad surprised Dragan wasn't already over here to oversee the hearings TBH. I guess the answer to that is: "There was was nothing he could do until it reached a conclusion" which is fair enough I suppose.

[trousers]

1 minute ago, saintant said:

Winter is a turd that won't flush away. 

It would seem that way.... who was at the helm at Saints back in the day when it seemed he was privy to everything that went on at the club and was almost a 'media champion' for the club? Someone's obviously rubbed him up the wrong way since (and not just because of this 'Spygate' malarkey)

[trousers]

3 minutes ago, saintwbu said:

Google suggests FA opened an investigation but he and Leeds were just warned and it would be further investigated if more came to light. Sounds like a precedent to me…

You'd like to think so... and we all know how consistent the footballing authorities are when it comes to this kinda thing...

Edited 49 minutes ago by trousers

[Harry_SFC]

4 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

TalkShite (yes, I know) reporter saying that Dragan has called a 'big meeting' at Staplewood this afternoon and that Tonda has been told to be at it. 

No idea if true, no further details, just sharing what they just said

Jim White is mates with Dragan. Imagine it's true. 

[James]

5 minutes ago, saintant said:

Winter is a turd that won't flush away. 

He used to be a respectable journalist, now he’s just a hypocrite. 

[trousers]

5 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

TalkShite (yes, I know) reporter saying that Dragan has called a 'big meeting' at Staplewood this afternoon and that Tonda has been told to be at it. 

No idea if true, no further details, just sharing what they just said

The club still haven't found the Middlesbrough bugging devices in the boardroom yet then....?

[trousers]

1 minute ago, Harry_SFC said:

Jim White is mates with Dragan. Imagine it's true. 

Ah, yes, probably a more likely explanation....

[Osvaldorama]

1 minute ago, trousers said:

You'd like to think so... 

 

The difference between how it was treated when Leeds did it, and now is absolutely scandalous. 
 

Very difficult to get over 

[trousers]

2 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

 

The difference between how it was treated when Leeds did it, and now is absolutely scandalous. 
 

Very difficult to get over 

I can understand the EFL treating it differently (due to their rule changes) but given the FA operate under their own rules, you'd have thought they would apply the same thinking to Eckert and they did to Bielsa (unless the FA rules that govern this area have also changed...?)

Edited 44 minutes ago by trousers

[saintant]

3 hours ago, Saint_lambden said:

Not a chance - he'll be gone imminently. The only question is when - whether it's before or after any FA ban which could make his dismissal more straight forward from a breach of contract/gross misconduct point of view. 

By the sounds of it, there was a growing sense in recent weeks that the success in terms of the unbeaten run was in spite of him and not because of him, which this whole saga just goes to confirm. A core of the players found his man-management style odd to say the least, and that's now three successive permanent managers (Juric, Still and Eckert) who have been emotionless. It's fair to say that the next appointment needs to have a bit of character about them to get the fans and players back on side and - in a way - embrace the siege mentality. 

Where have you got this from?

[James]

8 minutes ago, saintwbu said:

Google suggests FA opened an investigation but he and Leeds were just warned and it would be further investigated if more came to light. Sounds like a precedent to me…

Given the total disregard for precedent in this case, Tonda is presumably going to receive a custodial sentence 🤣

[Midfield_General]

7 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

Jim White is mates with Dragan. Imagine it's true. 

It actually wasn't Jim White this time, it was someone on the afternoon show, but it could still have been fed into them that way and it seems that a few different sources have reported the same thing so yeah it's probably happening. It would be weirder if he didn't show his face to be honest, given everything that's gone on.

No detail as to why he's there though. Could be because he wants to try and galvanise people, could be because he wants to do the firing face-to-face. 

If it was my potential £200m that had just been spunked and my business's reputation which had been decimated, I know which one I'd be doing, but let's see. 

 

Edited 41 minutes ago by Midfield_General

[Wade Garrett]

7 minutes ago, trousers said:

It would seem that way.... who was at the helm at Saints back in the day when it seemed he was privy to everything that went on at the club and was almost a 'media champion' for the club? Someone's obviously rubbed him up the wrong way since (and not just because of this 'Spygate' malarkey)

He hasn't got a proper job now.  I think he was paid by Gibson to do his bidding.

[saintant]

2 hours ago, James G said:

I think he'll go on to have a great career, but abroad. He'll need to ride the wave just now and see out any ban

I also don't think we spied on every team, because you can't. And I don't think the spying helped 

But, rules are rules

It's a stupid rule within the EFL. It should be allowed seeing as virtually no advantage is gained by doing it. Then, if clubs like Boro didn't like being spied on (which they clearly don't) it's up to them to secure their training grounds.

[Saint86]

5 minutes ago, saintant said:

Where have you got this from?

Isn't he one of the ones on here that always starts Character assassination rumours when stuff starts going wrong? Take it with a pinch of salt if i were you. THB was basically ready to have Eckert's babies he was so impressed with him. Players absolutely loved playing under him - you don't go 20unbeaten in the league and beat Arsenal/Fulham if you hate your manager.

[Wade Garrett]

Just now, saintant said:

It's a stupid rule within the EFL. It should be allowed seeing as virtually no advantage is gained by doing it. Then, if clubs like Boro didn't like being spied on (which they clearly don't) it's up to them to secure their training grounds.

I agree.  Maybe they'll change the rules again now. 

[Saint86]

1 minute ago, Wade Garrett said:

I agree.  Maybe they'll change the rules again now. 

Don't think they can seriously do that before any legal proceedings with saints are closed. But the rule should obviously be scrapped.

If boro are in the league next season, we should do surveillance on their next opponents before every fixture. See if we can catch them at it.

Edited 34 minutes ago by Saint86

[bugenhagen]

21 minutes ago, SaintLondon said:

The reality is that none of us truly know who knew what, and when. We’re led to believe there are text messages from Tonda that prove he knew what was happening, but I keep coming back to that interview where he said he wished he could speak openly about things. Unless he was just being deliberately cryptic, it feels like a strange thing to say if you were the person orchestrating the whole operation yourself.

Personally, I still think it’s more likely that Spors was heavily involved behind the scenes, but perhaps smart enough not to leave fingerprints all over it.

Either way, there is an enormous mess to clear up now and I’m not entirely sure where I’d even begin if I were tasked with rebuilding things. That said, part of me does think there could actually be some value, from a PR and trust perspective, in Tonda and the players coming out together in a unified way to acknowledge what’s happened and try to rebuild the relationship with the fans.

Now I know some people will immediately say “why would the players do that?” and there have been briefings suggesting they knew nothing about it, but if spying really was as widespread and embedded as we’re now being led to believe, I’m not sure I completely buy that narrative either.

The other part of me thinks it may ultimately come down to what the dressing room actually wants. If the players still believe they can work with him, trust him, and continue where they left off, then maybe - as mad as it sounds right now - there is an argument for keeping him. We’re almost certainly heading into next season with a weaker squad than this year’s and we need to give ourselves the best possible chance of stabilising and competing.

For what it’s worth, and whilst I’m still absolutely seething about all of this, ultimately I just want the club to move forward in the best way possible. My instinct is still that he has to go - if not purely from a football perspective then certainly from a PR and trust one - but I suppose I’m just trying to think through all the possible realities from here.

Good post, but to me it just sounded like something he would have said to make the questions go away - not that he was sitting on some jucy revelation. And that if he really wanted to talk about it, it was just to say that he didn't know/it common practice on the continent etc...

[Badger]

20 minutes ago, trousers said:

I'm a tad surprised Dragan wasn't already over here to oversee the hearings TBH. I guess the answer to that is: "There was was nothing he could do until it reached a conclusion" which is fair enough I suppose.

No he could have guided Parsons or at least brought someone in to warn him not to behave like a simpering imbecile looking to make amends  in full view of everyone at Middlesbrough (if Telegraph report to be believed). 

[John Boy Saint]

4 minutes ago, Osvaldorama said:

 

The difference between how it was treated when Leeds did it, and now is absolutely scandalous. 
 

Very difficult to get over 

When will folk realise we can't be compared to when Leeds did it - when Leeds did it they were being unsportsman like for which there was an established rule in place, there was no specific rule in place to say "thou shalt not covet thy oppositions positioning when defending corners within 72 hours of a match". But because Leeds were ferreting about in the bushes peeping on other teams, the EFL saw this as a loophole to close in the unsportsman like behaviour chapter of the rule book ..........................just like another loophole they closed , with rules, and we tried to slither around back in 2009 and they threw a different sized book at us, to make an example of us: one that could have pushed us into the abyss of non-existence.

[James]

3 minutes ago, John Boy Saint said:

When will folk realise we can't be compared to when Leeds did it - when Leeds did it they were being unsportsman like for which there was an established rule in place, there was no specific rule in place to say "thou shalt not covet thy oppositions positioning when defending corners within 72 hours of a match". But because Leeds were ferreting about in the bushes peeping on other teams, the EFL saw this as a loophole to close in the unsportsman like behaviour chapter of the rule book ..........................just like another loophole they closed , with rules, and we tried to slither around back in 2009 and they threw a different sized book at us, to make an example of us: one that could have pushed us into the abyss of non-existence.

We all understand it’s different. We can still query why the consequences for us have to be this severe. 

[revolution saint]

On a human level and not connected with how much/little Tonda knew, how culpable he is, whether he should be sacked or not but life must be pretty fucking shit for him right now. 

I know it's the job they sign up for and he may have brought all this on himself but I really wouldn't envy anyone going through this kind of thing.

[Jack]

5 hours ago, coalman said:

I would imagine there's a due process aspect to his dismissal as well if they want to minimise compensation.

Though I wouldn't rule out that we're just taking the dumbest course of action in line with previous behaviour.

Sure the club could seek advice from the EFL on how to fast track it 

[bpsaint]

58 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

I think it's something that can be considered and I don't think it's that outlandish a possibility to consider (if he doesn't get banned).  I certainly don't think people who do go down that route aren't living in the real world, that just smacks of being unable to understand an argument you don't agree with.

It’s not that I’m unable to understand the argument, it’s that it’s an unrealistic argument to begin with.

This £200 million figure being banded about, that’s only for one seasons worth of tv money. Let’s say we managed to survive, suddenly that’s £400 million, and on and on. There’s no way we’ll ever know for sure but all we do know is that Dragan authorised the spending of a bit of money, to make a hell of a lot more, and the incompetence of a handful of people has put an end to that, and no businessman will tolerate that.

[saintant]

38 minutes ago, Harry_SFC said:

I'd imagine Eckert is more of the fall guy then anything. Obviously he's clearly a big part of it but I'm assuming the operation was set up by Spors. 

This spying campaign didn't just miraculously materialise out of thin air. It would have been one person's idea and said person would have floated it verbally to others. Many at the club will know who came up with the idea and maybe the person's name should be made public so we know who to blame.

[revolution saint]

1 minute ago, bpsaint said:

It’s not that I’m unable to understand the argument, it’s that it’s an unrealistic argument to begin with.

This £200 million figure being banded about, that’s only for one seasons worth of tv money. Let’s say we managed to survive, suddenly that’s £400 million, and on and on. There’s no way we’ll ever know for sure but all we do know is that Dragan authorised the spending of a bit of money, to make a hell of a lot more, and the incompetence of a handful of people has put an end to that, and no businessman will tolerate that.

None of that matters if you believe that Tonda represents the best chance of promotion next season.  

[Harry_SFC]

22 minutes ago, saintant said:

It's a stupid rule within the EFL. It should be allowed seeing as virtually no advantage is gained by doing it. Then, if clubs like Boro didn't like being spied on (which they clearly don't) it's up to them to secure their training grounds.

That is what Stefan Borson (sports legal expert) was getting at when saying the punishment is disproportionate. The gain is minimal and he can't believe we've been docked points and removed from the final.

Jesus, even Simon Jordan (who is close with Gibson) doesn't think we should've been kicked out. 

[bpsaint]

2 minutes ago, revolution saint said:

None of that matters if you believe that Tonda represents the best chance of promotion next season.  

Forget its SFC, let’s say for example If a salesperson at a legitimate business somewhere was over exceeding targets, and making the company a fortune, but was taking back handers and stealing, do you think the management would say “yeah he’s a wrongun, but he makes us a lot of money” or do you think they’d follow due process and get rid?

Regardless of him being the best man to get us promoted his position is untenable, its a basic business fact. 

[John Boy Saint]

17 minutes ago, James said:

We all understand it’s different. We can still query why the consequences for us have to be this severe. 

Have you not wondered why a team like Sheffield Wednesday kept getting kicked with points deductions whilst they were already writhing on the ground after the last points deduction kicking for the same or similar offence - and thought what’s the point of another punishment as surely it’s making them getting out of the shite even harder? 

I was on a walking Safari in Africa once our guides changed our route because they could hear Lions were ahead somewhere - the EFL are like a Lion, stay away and play within their rules you’ll be fine, goad them - expect to get mauled. 

Edited 6 minutes ago by John Boy Saint
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