3 at the Back

[S-Clarke]

2 minutes ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

I can't be arsed to look, but do the French and Turkish lads play the same system as we do?

Goztepe seem pretty wedded to 3 at the back/5 at the back, not sure about Valenciennes as there are no historical line-ups/formations listed anywhere I can see.

[Lee On Solent Saint]

2 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Goztepe seem pretty wedded to 3 at the back/5 at the back, not sure about Valenciennes as there are no historical line-ups/formations listed anywhere I can see.

One for Christophe or Fred to answer there then. Possibly three teams playing the same system..........The SR way.

[aintforever]

Whatever system you play the manager should be flexible enough to change it when it clearly isn’t working. Yesterday was fucking awful, just endless passing between the full backs and centre backs because there were not enough options in midfield and there was no no9 who can hold the ball up.

1point from games against two shite opponents is just not good enough, even with a shite right back we would have done better with a more attacking 4-2-3-1 lineup IMO.

[Gloucester Saint]

2 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Our defence is not good enough to play only 2 x CBs.

It’s still not good enough with three CBs - witness the numerous free headers given away eg Coventry - and to boot it surrenders the midfield where we have got some of the better players in the league. Part of that is Manning making zero effort to stop/limit crosses coming in with total space and time to deliver on the spot and injured RBs (Bree needs to come in) but not all of it.

[Lord Duckhunter]

21 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

When Jelert came on yesterday we still played 5 at the back.

It was 3, not 5 

[sfc4prem]

Three 'central' defenders places greater emphasis on few things in my understanding (which may be severely limited!!):

- The quality of the central midfielder in using their presence to physically dominate, blocking runs and passes and being able to play on the turn to shift defense into attack

- The tenacity and drive of the wing backs to get up and down the pitch. Emphasis on stopping crosses and staying wide to not infringe on the two 'outer' central defenders

- The organisation, communication and reading of the game of the three 'centre backs'. Not leaving people unmarked, communicating positioning and responsibilities at set pieces or in open play when in the defensive third.

[S-Clarke]

2 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

Our defence is not good enough to play only 2 x CBs.

I've seen this mentioned a few times now, it seems bonkers to suggest that a formation/tactical setup is being used to hide/dilute the limitations of the players we have. It's entirely backwards if that is the logic and it's not how formations are meant to be used.

Tactical setups/formations are in place to give you a foundation and structure to get the best out of the players you have in the squad profile, they're not there to be used as an aid to cover deficiencies and gaps in individual quality.

Let me suggest something ground breaking - maybe to cover deficiencies, you buy better players? Just thinking outside the box here. But no, they keep renewing the contracts of these poor players so we're in a groundhog day loop.

[Willo of Whiteley]

Three CBs highlights the following for me:

- Less attacking threat

- Overrun in midfield, permanently 

- Less chances created

- Just how many we continue to concede even with more defenders on the pitch, it’s no worse than two CBs

- Just how poor they are

- An inability to win a header in our own penalty area

 

It’s not rocket science

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

Three CBs highlights the following for me:

- Less attacking threat

- Overrun in midfield, permanently 

- Less chances created

- Just how many we continue to concede even with more defenders on the pitch, it’s no worse than two CBs

- Just how poor they are

- An inability to win a header in our own penalty area

 

It’s not rocket science

Why is there less attacking threat? 
 

How many players do you want in midfield?
 

Do you think we should be creating more chances than we did against Charlton, Leicester, WBA, first Birmingham game or even Swansea  at home.

Why would replacing a centre half with Jelert result in being able to defend crosses better. Surely it would make our “inability to win a header” even worse. 

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, S-Clarke said:

Let me suggest something ground breaking - maybe to cover deficiencies, you buy better players? Just thinking outside the box here. But no, they keep renewing the contracts of these poor players so we're in a groundhog day loop.

That’s a completely different argument, which re enforces the point as to why we’re playing 3 centre halves. 

[AlexLaw76]

If having 3 CBs is better to deal with crosses, why not have 4? Or, throw one in the middle of the park and have 5?

the point about 3 at the back is that it leaves us consistently light in midfield and we are too quickly defending the 18 yard line. This coupled with glaring gaps behind Manning and Fellows, which requires a CB constantly being pulled wide. THB is half decent at this but fuck me, Stephens is shite.

people are pointing out how bad Romeu looks, but he is clearly completely unsuited to a 2 in midfield in our set up. The amount of grass our 2 CMs need to cover is phenomenal. Put Romeu at the base of a 3 and he will look better than he does. 
 

Against half decent teams, we are no struggling to get out and up the pitch consistently… why? Generally we are defending the 18 yard line as the midfield is easily bypassed.

Now that Jelert is back and Bree is potentially a couple of weeks away from returning to the club, I hope that we change it up as this set up has been part of an appalling premier league campaign and a Championship season to forget (so far)

Edited yesterday at 13:30 by AlexLaw76

[Harry_SFC]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

If having 3 CBs is better to deal with crosses, why not have 4? Or, throw one in the middle of the park and have 5?

the point about 3 at the back is that it leaves us consistently light in midfield and we are too quickly defending the 18 yard line. This coupled with glaring gaps behind Manning and Fellows, which requires a CB constantly being pulled wide. THB is half decent at this but fuck me, Stephens is shite.

people are pointing out how bad Romeu looks, but he is clearly completely unsuited to a 2 in midfield in our set up. The amount of grass our 2 CMs need to cover is phenomenal. Put Romeu at the base of a 3 and he will look better than he does. 
 

Against half decent teams, we are no struggling to get out and up the pitch consistently… why? Generally we are defending the 18 yard line as the midfield is easily bypassed.

Now that Jelert is back and Bree is potentially a couple of weeks away from returning to the club, I hope that we change it up as this set up has been part of an appalling premier league campaign and a Championship season to forget (so far)

The gap between the defence/midfield two and the front 3 was huge yesterday, especially in the first half. No control in there what so ever. 

[chownie20]

3 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

I've seen this mentioned a few times now, it seems bonkers to suggest that a formation/tactical setup is being used to hide/dilute the limitations of the players we have. It's entirely backwards if that is the logic and it's not how formations are meant to be used.

Tactical setups/formations are in place to give you a foundation and structure to get the best out of the players you have in the squad profile, they're not there to be used as an aid to cover deficiencies and gaps in individual quality.

Let me suggest something ground breaking - maybe to cover deficiencies, you buy better players? Just thinking outside the box here. But no, they keep renewing the contracts of these poor players so we're in a groundhog day loop.

I think it's utter rubbish our CBs are so poor we need three of them. THB has been promoted out of this division twice playing in a back four. Stephens is easily championship quality and proved this when he went out on loan to Bournemouth. Putting them in a three makes them look worse as they aren't doing what they've learned for twenty years in terms of how a back four and CB pairing operate together and a unit

[chownie20]

1 hour ago, AlexLaw76 said:

If having 3 CBs is better to deal with crosses, why not have 4? Or, throw one in the middle of the park and have 5?

the point about 3 at the back is that it leaves us consistently light in midfield and we are too quickly defending the 18 yard line. This coupled with glaring gaps behind Manning and Fellows, which requires a CB constantly being pulled wide. THB is half decent at this but fuck me, Stephens is shite.

people are pointing out how bad Romeu looks, but he is clearly completely unsuited to a 2 in midfield in our set up. The amount of grass our 2 CMs need to cover is phenomenal. Put Romeu at the base of a 3 and he will look better than he does. 
 

Against half decent teams, we are no struggling to get out and up the pitch consistently… why? Generally we are defending the 18 yard line as the midfield is easily bypassed.

Now that Jelert is back and Bree is potentially a couple of weeks away from returning to the club, I hope that we change it up as this set up has been part of an appalling premier league campaign and a Championship season to forget (so far)

Agree with this.

And id say the reason we don't win headers is again because we don't have two center backs and then the usual arrangements where the far full back tucks in to defend and the near fullback tries to stop the cross. It's simple but we're re writing what typical defenders have learned and played for years. It isn't easy to adapt when so much of defending is positional as a group. People don't know where to be and who's role/man is whose.

Edited yesterday at 14:52 by chownie20

[Wade Garrett]

Fucking ridiculous when we could have Jelert and Fellows playing on the right, Welington and Scienza on the left and Azaz pulling the strings in the 10.

We would be fucking murdering teams.  Instead, we have to watch more slow crab football that is so easy to play against.

Surely Eckert will consider this now.  If he doesn’t, he must be another laptop fraud of a manager.

[skintsaint]

1 hour ago, Wade Garrett said:

Fucking ridiculous when we could have Jelert and Fellows playing on the right, Welington and Scienza on the left and Azaz pulling the strings in the 10.

We would be fucking murdering teams.  Instead, we have to watch more slow crab football that is so easy to play against.

This. Such a waste of talent using this current system, not playing to their strengths.

[saintant]

7 hours ago, Lee On Solent Saint said:

We zonal mark don't we? Maybe if we tried man marking at set pieces it might help. At least with man marking there is a degree of responsibility. 

If we really do zonal mark then Tonda is bonkers because it's one of the most stupid things you can do.

Edited yesterday at 17:59 by saintant

[Lord Duckhunter]

4 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

the point about 3 at the back is that it leaves us consistently light in midfield 

How many players do you want in midfield? 

[Willo of Whiteley]

Most teams in this division have three in midfield, most teams in general play with a midfield three now because it adds a lot of flex in terms of defending and attacking.

No one can tell me that Jander and Downes were dominating the middle of the park against Birmingham last night.

As for anyone that want to compare to Leicester, Charlton or West Brom - those games were when our tactics were fresh under a new coach - hard to do homework on something you’re not sure about, one was down to ten men and on the back foot, and the other decided to push that high up the pitch and were and are currently showing how poor they are.

[AlexLaw76]

2 hours ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

How many players do you want in midfield? 

More than 2 

[Lord Duckhunter]

1 hour ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

Most teams in this division have three in midfield, most teams in general play with a midfield three now because it adds a lot of flex in terms of defending and attacking.

No one can tell me that Jander and Downes were dominating the middle of the park against Birmingham last night.

So you want 3 in central midfield, who are those 3?

[Lord Duckhunter]

6 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

 

the point about 3 at the back is that it leaves us consistently light in midfield 

 

2 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

More than 2 

So you think we’re playing 3 at the back and 2 in midfield? 

 

[skintsaint]

17 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So you want 3 in central midfield, who are those 3?

Downes, Charles & Jander?

This a trick question?

[aintforever]

I would go 4-2-3-1 and the midfield picks itself. Downes and Jander behind Leo, Azaz and Fellows with Armo up top. With two holding midfielders the fullbacks can get forward, you don’t need three fucking centre backs.

Edited yesterday at 20:35 by aintforever

[Willo of Whiteley]

24 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So you want 3 in central midfield, who are those 3?

I’d say our strongest team if I had to pick is:

GK - (?)
DEF - Jelert, Harwood-Bellis,(?), (?)
MID - Any three from Azaz, Jander, Downes and Charles is good and that’s bearing in mind Bragg has looked half decent compared to some of our “seasoned pros”.
ATT - Fellows, Armstrong, Scienza

The ones with question marks are positions where I don’t think it makes any real difference in who you pick.

[AlexLaw76]

29 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

So you want 3 in central midfield, who are those 3?

3 from Charles, Jander, Downes, Bragg and Romeu

 

 

[Whitey Grandad]

10 hours ago, Harry_SFC said:

Maybe one less crap defender would be a good thing. 

No No No!

 

One fewer crap defender, surely?

[Lord Duckhunter]

20 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

Downes, Charles & Jander?

This a trick question?

Well it’s confused you, seeing as Charles isn’t fit…

[Lord Duckhunter]

9 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

3 from Charles, Jander, Downes, Bragg and Romeu

 

 

Who plays in front of the full backs, and who are the full backs? 

[Lord Duckhunter]

12 minutes ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

Any three from Azaz, Jander, Downes and Charles is good

Dear god, you’re playing Azaz in central midfield? 

[AlexLaw76]

3 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Who plays in front of the full backs, and who are the full backs? 

I would put Leo LB and Archer RB

 

[Willo of Whiteley]

1 minute ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Dear god, you’re playing Azaz in central midfield? 

You can have many variations of a three man midfield.

You can have an attacking midfielder in that three, a defensive midfielder in that three, it allows the two others to be more flexible and box-to-box players.

I’m sure you’re just doing this as a wind up but I’m more than content to still giving you answers. 😂

[Anders]

whats the point of an extra CB for added height when one of those CBs (Stephens) seems to be scared of heading the ball

[skintsaint]

20 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Well it’s confused you, seeing as Charles isn’t fit…

Oh you mean for next game, well say that.

Replace Charles with Bragg. He has done well since coming in.

[Lord Duckhunter]

21 minutes ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

I’m sure you’re just doing this as a wind up but I’m more than content to still giving you answers

I’m not winding anyone up. I don’t think it will make a blind bit of difference whether we play 2 centre halves or 3, we’ll still conceded, but I don’t think we’ll be as progressive as we can be. 

To play 4-3-3 as you’re suggesting, with our full backs would be suicidal. They’ll get isolated over and over again and nothing I’ve seen from Wellington or Manning suggests they’ll be able to cope. I don’t know about Jelert, as he’s hardly played. But if you’re playing Leo wide left, without the left sided centre back there to shuffle over, will have to defend more than he does now. As the left backs can’t defend properly. 
 

While it’s not an exact science we seem to want to play a 3-4-2-1 sort of formation. I don’t see how putting Azaz into a central 3 will make us anymore difficult to beat. 
 

 

 

Edited 23 hours ago by Lord Duckhunter

[Willo of Whiteley]

15 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I’m not winding anyone up. I don’t think it will make a blind bit of difference whether we play 2 centre halves or 3, we’ll still conceded, but I don’t think we’ll be as progressive as we can be. 

To play 4-3-3 as you’re suggesting, with our full backs would be suicidal. They’ll get isolated over and over again and nothing I’ve seen from Wellington or Manning suggests they’ll be able to cope. I don’t know about Jelert, as he’s hardly played. But if you’re playing Leo wide left, without the left sided centre back there to shuffle over, will have to defend more than he does now. As the left backs can’t defend properly. 

And I think that’s the point, if we’re going to concede then we might as well try and outscore the opposition.

In terms of a 4-3-3 if you have an attacking mid it’s effectively a 4-2-3-1, which some are a fan of, very similar to the Koeman era.

Alternatively a 4-3-3 allows a holding midfielder to drop deep, which we always do, as a third CB option, this then allows the FB’s to push higher up, the Wingers to push higher as the ST would inevitably drop deep. Effectively it becomes a 3-4-3 in transition, similar to Russell Martin days where Che Adams would drop deep, if you’d like a better option see Liverpool with Roberto Firmino. 😁

[saintant]

1 hour ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

Who plays in front of the full backs, and who are the full backs? 

Who cares. We are crap at the back whoever plays so lets at least pick our best in midfield and attack in an effort to score some goals. Whatever system and players at the back we'll be crap. Let's not sacrifice what we're good at for what we're shit at.

Edited 23 hours ago by saintant

[trousers]

49 minutes ago, Lord Duckhunter said:

I don’t think it will make a blind bit of difference whether we play 2 centre halves or 3

Ergo, nothing to lose in going with 2 then...

[skintsaint]

Like how the new guy at Celtic has come in, changed to a back 3 system from O'Neills 433/4231 formations, and is now flopping.

 

[Osvaldorama]

Dunno why people are pretending it’s hard to field a back 4:

 

McCarthy 

Jelert THB Stephens Wellington 

Jander Downes Bragg

Fellows Arma Scienza 

This would be a lot better than anything we’ve put out all season. I guarantee it.

(Charles back in for Bragg when he’s fit.)

Edited 22 hours ago by Osvaldorama

[JohnnyShearer2.0]

Saw this on reddit. Would potentially swap out Manning / Wellington for Mads.

Something along this I think would be decent. Of course it would help if Stewart was fit.

Edited 22 hours ago by JohnnyShearer2.0

[Suhari]

11 minutes ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

Saw this on reddit. Would potentially swap out Manning / Wellington for Mads.

Something along this I think would be decent. Of course it would help if Stewart was fit.

Yep. It's pretty obvious.

That's a very decent EFL team.

[saintant]

While we persist with 3 centre backs we will have to endure this dire football. Meanwhile our flair players will toil away on scraps.

[Lord Duckhunter]

11 hours ago, Osvaldorama said:

Dunno why people are pretending it’s hard to field a back 4:

 

McCarthy 

Jelert THB Stephens Wellington 

Jander Downes Bragg

Fellows Arma Scienza 

There’s no way on earth that side plays as well as we did at Charlton, Birmingham home, WBA or Leicester, no chance. Jelert seems to be the latest member of “the less you play, the better you become” club. Nobody knows how he’ll pan out, he maybe the answer. But if he’s not Fellowes will need to cover him, and nothing I’ve seen suggests Wellington won’t need Leo’s help defensively. If we play that side, I’ll be putting my hands over my eyes when every corner, free kick or cross goes into the box, and with that lack of any pace centrally will kill us unless McCarthy’s starting position is incredibly high. Stephens & THB, I don’t know why you’re pretending that’s the answer…

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Lord Duckhunter

[Turkish]

this is the team chatgpt recommended so at least we know AI isn't picking the team

Best Formation: 4-2-3-1 (Fluid / Wide Support)

 

Bazunu

Jelert / Roerslev Harwood-Bellis Edwards Bree / Manning

Downes Jander

Fellows Azaz Scienza

Armstrong

 

It also says

🧠 Bottom Line

Southampton aren’t struggling because a back three is bad.

They’re struggling because:

• ❌ Wrong CB profiles

• ❌ No real wing-backs

• ❌ Midfield imbalance

• ❌ Isolated striker

• ❌ Championship intensity punishes passive shapes

Best fix:

👉 Ditch the back three
👉 Return to 4-2-3-1 / 4-3-3
👉 Build around Downes + creativity + real wingers

All things we've said tbf

Edited 10 hours ago by Turkish

[beatlesaint]

6 minutes ago, Turkish said:

this is the team chatgpt recommended so at least we know AI isn't picking the team

Best Formation: 4-2-3-1 (Fluid / Wide Support)

 

Bazunu

Jelert / Roerslev Harwood-Bellis Edwards Bree / Manning

Downes Jander

Fellows Azaz Scienza

Armstrong

If you put Wood in for Edwards given TE doesnt seem to rate him at all I really dont understand why that line up and formation wouldnt be worth a try.

With a new keeper it would be even better.

[Lord Duckhunter]

11 hours ago, JohnnyShearer2.0 said:

Saw this on reddit. Would potentially swap out Manning / Wellington for Mads.

Something along this I think would be decent. Of course it would help if Stewart was fit.

This side is ok, better than other suggestions. But, some people wrote they didn’t like 3 at the back because it left us light in midfield, so I presume they won’t like just having 2 in there centrally (or maybe that’s not the reason).
 

That pic perfectly illustrates my concerns. Azaz is woeful defensively, so won’t be able to drop into the central midfield. It’s inevitable that Fellowes & Leo will get pushed back and end up helping out the full backs when we’re under pressure. Whereas in a 3, the wider centre halves can help out and the other 2 shuffle over.

 

 

 

 

[Turkish]

1 minute ago, beatlesaint said:

If you put Wood in for Edwards given TE doesnt seem to rate him at all I really dont understand why that line up and formation wouldnt be worth a try.

With a new keeper it would be even better.

I suspect if we all wrote down what we thought our best team and formation is 90% of people would pick one not far off that, with maybe a few different players, Wellington or Charles in for Manning or Downes for example.

[Willo of Whiteley]

Ducky playing devils advocate for every possible tactical decision, team selection, formation etc, etc.

I’d say that every possible question Lord D has asked has been answered, but he’s still not happy with them…

[Lord Duckhunter]

14 minutes ago, Turkish said:

this is the team chatgpt recommended so at least we know AI isn't picking the team

 

 

Bazunu

It’s clearly not infallible