Saints 1-2 Hull - Match Thread

[saints-til-i-die]

This is on Spors. He recruited a young cb when we were crying out for experience/leader to help THB/Wood. He didn’t sort the gk issue in the summer. He signed Downs when we were crying out for a decent striker. He obsesses over signing young players with potential resell value and ignored experience/proven quality. To top it off he gave us a young manager who looked out of his depth so when he inevitably sacked him he gave us another young manager with no managerial experience. The man is a fraud. Spors has presided over this disaster.

[obelisk]

I was maybe half joking during the Christmas period that we were likely to be caught up in a relegation struggle but that performance yesterday against a patched up Hull side has me wondering where on earth a win is coming from. I have no confidence in getting a result against Sheffield United and this lot are very likely to be an embarrassment at Fratton Park in a week's time. Lose those two and we're really in a dog fight at the wrong end of the table with a Saints team that show no fight at all. Very worrying and yet another mess of a season under SR.

[Katalinic]

14 minutes ago, saints-til-i-die said:

This is on Spors. He recruited a young cb when we were crying out for experience/leader to help THB/Wood. He didn’t sort the gk issue in the summer. He signed Downs when we were crying out for a decent striker. He obsesses over signing young players with potential resell value and ignored experience/proven quality. To top it off he gave us a young manager who looked out of his depth so when he inevitably sacked him he gave us another young manager with no managerial experience. The man is a fraud. Spors has presided over this disaster.

It's the whole Sport Republic model. They want to emulate Brighton, the difference being that Brighton are good at it.

[a1ex2001]

10 minutes ago, Katalinic said:

It's the whole Sport Republic model. They want to emulate Brighton, the difference being that Brighton are good at it.

The difference being Brighton have got lucky so far, they will eventually struggle as maintaining that level of success in the transfer market while selling your best players is impossible long term.

Our club is a mess though, clearly the board are dictating this 3/5 at the back nonsense and think they are smarter than everyone else when it comes to gambling on young managers and inexperienced players.  I’d love us to appoint a manager who talks about winning games and fill out the team with one or two senior players (not the totally past it types we have been picking up)

[64saint]

Maybe Eckert's wife should have given the team talk.  Obviously worked for Man Utd with Carrick if Roy Keane is to be believed. 🙄

[Katalinic]

7 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

The difference being Brighton have got lucky so far, they will eventually struggle as maintaining that level of success in the transfer market while selling your best players is impossible long term.

Our club is a mess though, clearly the board are dictating this 3/5 at the back nonsense and think they are smarter than everyone else when it comes to gambling on young managers and inexperienced players.  I’d love us to appoint a manager who talks about winning games and fill out the team with one or two senior players (not the totally past it types we have been picking up)

Brighton are incredibly well run from top to bottom (I do have some personal insight into that). There will always be a degree of luck in transfers of course but they get it consistently right which is no coincidence and they have their core supporting structures spot on.

Saints couldn't be further from that sadly - we are run by a team of desperate gamblers at a roulette wheel.

Edited 9 hours ago by Katalinic

[Saint Billy]

I am literally done with this lot. Give me a shout when we have a side worth supporting, and that comes from someone who has supported saints since the age of six and is now 69.

Edited 7 hours ago by Saint Billy

[Gloucester Saint]

14 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

I am literally done with this lot. Give me a shout when we have a side worth supporting, and that comes from someone who has supported saints since the age of six and is not 69.

I’m nearer 50 but yes, feel exactly the same. 

[Gloucester Saint]

2 hours ago, Hamwic said:

The current fashion of appointing a head coach rather than a manager is the cause of such malaise. On the whole they are not man managers, leaving the players rudderless. They also have little or no control over signings. Add to that the fact we have no real leadership on the pitch and you have much of the real reasons we are in our current situation. 

💯 and the players as a result don’t respect them. Saints are an extreme example but you can see it at loads of clubs. A player typically signed on a 5 year contract thinks ‘If I don’t like you there will probably be at least 8-9 managers during my contract if I’m here for the duration so I’ll sack it off and the owners will bring someone else in’.

[Stud mark of doom]

39 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

The difference being Brighton have got lucky so far, they will eventually struggle as maintaining that level of success in the transfer market while selling your best players is impossible long term.

Our club is a mess though, clearly the board are dictating this 3/5 at the back nonsense and think they are smarter than everyone else when it comes to gambling on young managers and inexperienced players.  I’d love us to appoint a manager who talks about winning games and fill out the team with one or two senior players (not the totally past it types we have been picking up)

Starting to think that this formation has been selected to optimise individual player stats and resale value and, much like our transfer policy, winning games of football isn’t the point. 
 

[Osvaldorama]

Feel the same. 
 

Horrific yesterday. As bad as when we went to league one before, but with even more expensive and unlikeable players with no connection to the fans whatsoever. 
 

It’s all feels basically pointless until SR leave. Even if he pumps in more cash, they’ll waste it all over & over. 

[benjii]

I'm not 69 either.

[Gloucester Saint]

2 minutes ago, benjii said:

I'm not 69 either.

But you’d like to be (not as in age) 😉

[saintant]

56 minutes ago, a1ex2001 said:

The difference being Brighton have got lucky so far, they will eventually struggle as maintaining that level of success in the transfer market while selling your best players is impossible long term.

Our club is a mess though, clearly the board are dictating this 3/5 at the back nonsense and think they are smarter than everyone else when it comes to gambling on young managers and inexperienced players.  I’d love us to appoint a manager who talks about winning games and fill out the team with one or two senior players (not the totally past it types we have been picking up)

I don't think it is a matter of luck. Their owner uses a secret algorithm that identifies potential signings by analysing various metrics and betting markets helping them find undervalued talents. People may deride this method but it works for them far better then our feeble efforts to copy Moneyball. Brighton are far more switched on at doing what they are doing than we are. They will likely continue to unearth unknown players who they buy cheap and turn huge profits on. Others may think it will inevitably crash but I'm not so sure.

[saintant]

24 minutes ago, Stud mark of doom said:

Starting to think that this formation has been selected to optimise individual player stats and resale value and, much like our transfer policy, winning games of football isn’t the point. 
 

If it's been selected to optimise player resale values they clearly need to take a sledgehammer to it.

[bangkoksaint]

50 minutes ago, Saint Billy said:

I am literally done with this lot. Give me a shout when we have a side worth supporting, and that comes from someone who has supported saints since the age of six and is not 69.

Me too. I’m a regular, or was. Simply not throwing my time and money at them anymore. If we were entertaining and the team were giving 100% then different matter, but they’re not. I don’t think I’ve seen such unprofessionalism in 50 years of supporting this club
 

[Football Special]

10 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

Bree has been training and playing regularly at Charlton, will he have returned by then?

 

Charlton Athletic manager Nathan Jones confirmed they will be losing James Bree’s services - with the on-loan Southampton defender making his farewell appearance in today’s 1-0 win over Sheffield United at The Valley.

The 28-year-old was replaced at the start of the second half as the Addicks looked to attack opposition reduced to nine men after red cards for Djibril Soumare and Japhet Tanganga.

Tyreece Campbell came on to replace Bree at left wing-back.

James Bree made his 19th appearance for Charlton in today’s victory against Sheffield United/Picture: Keith Gillard

Southampton boss Tonda Eckert confirmed this week that he wanted to add Bree to his squad. His predecessor Will Still had been happy to let the player, out of contract in the summer, head to SE7.

“The nice thing is that I think with James, you have an opportunity,” said Eckert. “He can play as a half-back, he can play as a full-back, and he has now played as a wing-back a lot.

“There are not many players who have that profile and feel comfortable in all of those positions. Defending inside, defending outside, but also have the physical capacity to get up the pitch.

“I think it’s different from a player that comes into a completely new group. But of course, we need to get a feeling for each other. We will meet on Monday and see where we’re at.”

Edited 8 hours ago by Football Special

[obelisk]

11 minutes ago, Football Special said:

 

Charlton Athletic manager Nathan Jones confirmed they will be losing James Bree’s services - with the on-loan Southampton defender making his farewell appearance in today’s 1-0 win over Sheffield United at The Valley.

The 28-year-old was replaced at the start of the second half as the Addicks looked to attack opposition reduced to nine men after red cards for Djibril Soumare and Japhet Tanganga.

Tyreece Campbell came on to replace Bree at left wing-back.

James Bree made his 19th appearance for Charlton in today’s victory against Sheffield United/Picture: Keith Gillard

Southampton boss Tonda Eckert confirmed this week that he wanted to add Bree to his squad. His predecessor Will Still had been happy to let the player, out of contract in the summer, head to SE7.

“The nice thing is that I think with James, you have an opportunity,” said Eckert. “He can play as a half-back, he can play as a full-back, and he has now played as a wing-back a lot.

“There are not many players who have that profile and feel comfortable in all of those positions. Defending inside, defending outside, but also have the physical capacity to get up the pitch.

“I think it’s different from a player that comes into a completely new group. But of course, we need to get a feeling for each other. We will meet on Monday and see where we’re at.”

Smacks of desperation.

[tttdcs]

..... and weaken a relegation rival

[Verwood Saint]

46 minutes ago, Stud mark of doom said:

Starting to think that this formation has been selected to optimise individual player stats and resale value and, much like our transfer policy, winning games of football isn’t the point. 
 

That's an interesting observation given that it appears so much recruitment is based on data these days.  The fact that the player is not part of a successful team is just not relevant is it.  

(TBF our approach to recruiting players on the same basis has it's successes even in the SR era - Matty F would be a good example as far as WHU fans are concerned.  Appreciate we have far more misses than hits these days but nonetheless they turn a profit for SR don't they!) 

[coalman]

On the one hand we created a lot more yesterday (including some in the second half). 22 shots (7 on target) to Hull's 9 shots (3 on target). We looked better when we moved to 4 at the back. 

The trouble is we completely surrendered any initiative we were creating with our suicidal playing around the back. Then compounded it with 2 players ball watching the player they were up against from the subsequent corner. Honorable mention for Peretz's hologram impression dealing with the header though his earlier save at 0-0 was top notch.

Throw in the decision to remove our best crosser of the ball when they brought on our only centre forward able to get on the end of crosses and we turned a totally winnable game into a narrow defeat.

We also had Manning drifting around in his usual ball watching free role away from his actual position so we'd always be at risk any time they got the ball down their right wing when combined with the ball watching central trio.

While we're giving away so many easy chances and have such obvious vulnerabilities we're always going to be at risk of this kind of result. One would hope that the lessons taken from that game are pretty easy for Tonda.

1. 4 at the back and don't get overrun in midfield. Dropping Wood would be a good start.

2. Manning replaced by Wellington (or any footballer who can play left back)

3. Downes replaced by a midfielder who is allowed to pass forward.

4. Play Fellows in his best position and keep him on the pitch.

5. FFS STOP CUNTING AROUND AT THE BACK

[davefizzy14]

Ross scoring was the only positive. Hoping he stays fit.

[Give it to Ron]

1 minute ago, coalman said:

On the one hand we created a lot more yesterday (including some in the second half). 22 shots (7 on target) to Hull's 9 shots (3 on target). We looked better when we moved to 4 at the back. 

The trouble is we completely surrendered any initiative we were creating with our suicidal playing around the back. Then compounded it with 2 players ball watching the player they were up against from the subsequent corner. Honorable mention for Peretz's hologram impression dealing with the header though his earlier save at 0-0 was top notch.

Throw in the decision to remove our best crosser of the ball when they brought on our only centre forward able to get on the end of crosses and we turned a totally winnable game into a narrow defeat.

We also had Manning drifting around in his usual ball watching free role away from his actual position so we'd always be at risk any time they got the ball down their right wing when combined with the ball watching central trio.

While we're giving away so many easy chances and have such obvious vulnerabilities we're always going to be at risk of this kind of result. One would hope that the lessons taken from that game are pretty easy for Tonda.

1. 4 at the back and don't get overrun in midfield. Dropping Wood would be a good start.

2. Manning replaced by Wellington (or any footballer who can play left back)

3. Downes replaced by a midfielder who is allowed to pass forward.

4. Play Fellows in his best position and keep him on the pitch.

5. FFS STOP CUNTING AROUND AT THE BACK

Far too sensible for these useless clueless idiots if nearly every fan can see it - I was going to say why can’t they but they refuse to.

[Give it to Ron]

Just now, davefizzy14 said:

Ross scoring was the only positive. Hoping he stays fit.

TBH it was probably the worst thing as they can say we don’t need anyone else ignoring the fact he could only play about 30 minutes.

[coalman]

4 minutes ago, davefizzy14 said:

Ross scoring was the only positive. Hoping he stays fit.

It's only a positive if they recognise that we have the players to pepper opponents with crosses but that only works if we have centre forwards who can score from them. 3 years on we really shouldn't need to keep relearning that Adam Armstrong alone in the middle doesn't work (or that like for liking him with Archer also doesn't work). And, that Stewart needs to be used sparingly if we're to avoid breaking him again.

[Badger]

49 minutes ago, saintant said:

I don't think it is a matter of luck. Their owner uses a secret algorithm that identifies potential signings by analysing various metrics and betting markets helping them find undervalued talents. People may deride this method but it works for them far better then our feeble efforts to copy Moneyball. Brighton are far more switched on at doing what they are doing than we are. They will likely continue to unearth unknown players who they buy cheap and turn huge profits on. Others may think it will inevitably crash but I'm not so sure.

Isn’t this exactly what Rasmus and co do ? Or at least claim to. 

[coalman]

1 minute ago, Badger said:

Isn’t this exactly what Rasmus and co do ? Or at least claim to. 

The difference between a competent data scientist and someone pretending to do data science is enormous. Then your shit data scientist hires equally shit data scientists while they all sit around circle jerking about how they're data driven.

Or, you have a "visionary" leader that hires data scientists to support their gut instincts.

Neither of these situations results in data being used effectively to good outcomes. Sadly, I think Southampton have managed to create an organisation that suffers from both these dysfunctions.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

The apathy on and off the pitch yesterday was palpable. Most were too disheartened to boo. My anger has given way to resignation bordering on despair. At least in the Branfoot days we never went down and there were people around the club who had a vague notion of how to run it. And of course we had some players who were proud to wear the shirt. Everywhere I looked yesterday was decay, apathy and malaise. These are tough days.

[Badger]

2 minutes ago, coalman said:

The difference between a competent data scientist and someone pretending to do data science is enormous. Then your shit data scientist hires equally shit data scientists while they all sit around circle jerking about how they're data driven.

Probably sums it up nicely. 
 

And they won’t appoint someone who really knows what they’re doing as it will expose them. 

[Badger]

28 minutes ago, davefizzy14 said:

Ross scoring was the only positive. Hoping he stays fit.

Dare we risk him again on Wednesday, Sunday ?? 

[S-Clarke]

5 minutes ago, Fitzhugh Fella said:

The apathy on and off the pitch yesterday was palpable. Most were too disheartened to boo. My anger has given way to resignation bordering on despair. At least in the Branfoot days we never went down and there were people around the club who had a vague notion of how to run it. And of course we had some players who were proud to wear the shirt. Everywhere I looked yesterday was decay, apathy and malaise. These are tough days.

Yep, this is how it feels to me as well. A general malaise around every aspect of the football club, from the directors, to the coaches, to the management, to the players, to the fans.

It's a really, really toxic place at the moment. The Bramfoot years were slightly before my time (thankfully), so my only comparable yardstick for this level of despair is the Porte/Wotte era - but even in those years, you still felt a bit of a connection with the likes of Lloyd James, Lallana, McGoldrick, Surman and such at the time - as they'd come from the academy, but there's no such connection here now - so it's probably worse.

Edited 7 hours ago by S-Clarke

[saintant]

13 minutes ago, Badger said:

Isn’t this exactly what Rasmus and co do ? Or at least claim to. 

In a way but the key difference is that they don't have access to Brighton's secret algorithm. Not many do even those at their club.

[saintant]

9 minutes ago, coalman said:

The difference between a competent data scientist and someone pretending to do data science is enormous. Then your shit data scientist hires equally shit data scientists while they all sit around circle jerking about how they're data driven.

Or, you have a "visionary" leader that hires data scientists to support their gut instincts.

Neither of these situations results in data being used effectively to good outcomes. Sadly, I think Southampton have managed to create an organisation that suffers from both these dysfunctions.

Agree. Tony Bloom is clearly light years ahead of Rasmus Ankersen.

[saintant]

4 minutes ago, Badger said:

Dare we risk him again on Wednesday, Sunday ?? 

Imagine he'll be on the bench for both games.

[S-Clarke]

Just now, saintant said:

Agree. Tony Bloom is clearly light years ahead of Rasmus Ankersen.

I don't think Rasmus has real knowledge of this, even though he claims to.

The brains at Brentford were Phil Giles and Matt Benham. I'm looking at it now and I don't know what Rasmus even did there, maybe he was just a salesmen for Phil/Matt to encourage people to join? That was probably the extent of his role.

[Midfield_General]

57 minutes ago, saintant said:

I don't think it is a matter of luck. Their owner uses a secret algorithm that identifies potential signings by analysing various metrics and betting markets helping them find undervalued talents. People may deride this method but it works for them far better then our feeble efforts to copy Moneyball. Brighton are far more switched on at doing what they are doing than we are. They will likely continue to unearth unknown players who they buy cheap and turn huge profits on. Others may think it will inevitably crash but I'm not so sure.

Exactly this. Brighton’s success isn’t down to luck at all, Bloom has developed a completely bespoke and highly effective piece of technology which actually works, and which has personally made him billions by using it. His other club is Hearts, who are now top of the Scottish league and could well win it. 

It’s not coincidence at all, it’s a proper, market-leading tool that actually works and that he has applied properly, putting an appropriate structure, team and support system around it.

The problem comes when dickheads like Rasmus, Solak and Spors see that and think ‘oh yeah, easy, we can do that too’, without the ability or specialist tools required to do it, or the humility to understand that they they can’t just make it up and expect to succeed in the same way. 

Not only are they incompetent, but they are also incredibly arrogant, and that’s we’re so utterly fucked until they go. 

[saintant]

1 minute ago, S-Clarke said:

I don't think Rasmus has real knowledge of this, even though he claims to.

The brains at Brentford were Phil Giles and Matt Benham. I'm looking at it now and I don't know what Rasmus even did there, maybe he was just a salesmen for Phil/Matt to encourage people to join? That was probably the extent of his role.

Agree but Ankersen still dines out on his time at Brentford and there are still people who believe he was key to their success. Solac still seems to respect him so we are stuck with him and his 'If it aint broke break it' nonsense. The man is a fraud.

[sockeye]

3 minutes ago, Midfield_General said:

Others may think it will inevitably crash

I just think this is way of coping based on seeing us flounder and then come crashing down after the Pochettino/Koeman years. Yes, a couple bad seasons can spoil your empire, but our pain was pretty self inflicted - a lack of investment, spending what we gained from sales on crap - and then having lots to spend but no wisdom, throwing it all to the wind

Edited 7 hours ago by sockeye
Clarification

[Midfield_General]

19 minutes ago, coalman said:

The difference between a competent data scientist and someone pretending to do data science is enormous. Then your shit data scientist hires equally shit data scientists while they all sit around circle jerking about how they're data driven.

Or, you have a "visionary" leader that hires data scientists to support their gut instincts.

Neither of these situations results in data being used effectively to good outcomes. Sadly, I think Southampton have managed to create an organisation that suffers from both these dysfunctions.

Spot on

[Midfield_General]

14 minutes ago, sockeye said:

I just think this is way of coping based on seeing us flounder and then come crashing down after the Pochettino/Koeman years. Yes, a couple bad seasons can spoil your empire, but our pain was pretty self inflicted - a lack of investment, spending what we gained from sales on crap - and then having lots to spend but no wisdom, throwing it all to the wind

That’s weird - you’ve quoted me there but that’s not my quote, it was from ant I think. 

[swedish dave]

2 hours ago, Gloucester Saint said:

I’m nearer 50 but yes, feel exactly the same. 

You're still young. You have a long way to go yet,  just hang in there, 

I'm nearer 80 ...and I've been through a lot more than what we are suffering now.

[davefizzy14]

What I couldn't understand yesterday is why Tonda reverted to a back five. As soon as he changed it at half time back to a four we look so much more progressive and we pushed higher up the pitch. Baffling. Another thing which annoyed we was both Welington and Matsuki deserved to keep their places but nope they both got dropped! Jack should have been starting, our last clean sheet came when he was in the side. He's our captain after all. 

Edited 6 hours ago by davefizzy14

[tdmickey3]

34 minutes ago, davefizzy14 said:

What I couldn't understand yesterday is why Tonda reverted to a back five. As soon as he changed it at half time back to a four we look so much more progressive and we pushed higher up the pitch. Baffling. Another thing which annoyed we was both Welington and Matsuki deserved to keep their places but nope they both got dropped! Jack should have been starting, our last clean sheet came when he was in the side. He's our captain after all. 

I agree with most of that Dave but no the Stephens bit he is a poor leader and a poor player

[davefizzy14]

3 minutes ago, tdmickey3 said:

I agree with most of that Dave but no the Stephens bit he is a poor leader and a poor player

Jack is a leader though mate. It don't help when the backline is constantly changed. Our last cleansheet was with Jack at the heart of it.

Edited 6 hours ago by davefizzy14

[tdmickey3]

1 minute ago, davefizzy14 said:

Jack is a leader though mate. It don't help when the backline is constantly changed. Our last cleansheet was with Jack at the heart of it.

He really isn’t mate, he ball watches, is ill disciplined and all round poor. 
If he does try to lead then it doesn’t show at all anywhere. 
Proper leaders actually do something, he has done nothing 

[Lymington Saint]

Was in the chapel yesterday and very few stood up when we scored. Kind of shows the level of indifference

[AlexLaw76]

2 hours ago, S-Clarke said:

Yep, this is how it feels to me as well. A general malaise around every aspect of the football club, from the directors, to the coaches, to the management, to the players, to the fans.

It's a really, really toxic place at the moment. The Bramfoot years were slightly before my time (thankfully), so my only comparable yardstick for this level of despair is the Porte/Wotte era - but even in those years, you still felt a bit of a connection with the likes of Lloyd James, Lallana, McGoldrick, Surman and such at the time - as they'd come from the academy, but there's no such connection here now - so it's probably worse.

Branfoot and Wotte days were very different.

Branfoot, as someone said, we have a few players desperate to do well, but were led by completely the wrong person. And we had MLT.

Wotte, we had no money and a bunch of kids. hiding to nothing

 

[davefizzy14]

The decision to take Fellows off yesterday was utterly baffling. Was fuming about that. 

[tdmickey3]

Just now, davefizzy14 said:

The decision to take Fellows off yesterday was utterly baffling. Was fuming about that. 

It’s because he clueless

[LaptopSaint]

Sideways and backwards everywhere we go, Sideways and backwards everywhere we go, Everywhere we gooooo…

Nearly 24 hours on, the thing that strikes me most about that game is not that people watching were angry, it’s that they were so fucking bored. 
Boring, passionless, predictable, uninspiring football. The last three games I’ve seen - Oxford away, Millwall at home and yesterday’s yawnfest - have all been dreadful.

I don’t just blame Tonda. I blame Guardiola, I blame all the analysts with laptops, I blame x fucking G. I’m paying to be entertained and it’s just really tedious. 
Surely someone in the hierarchy is looking at the manager’s post-match comments and thinking that’s not acceptable, it was dull as fuck. I don’t want hoofball but I don’t want this either. 
It’s not really about the money. It’s about the time I invest in watching this shite and caring about it. Is it the players, is it SR? Dreading the trip to the Tin Shed down the road.

And then after a crap season we have the joy of watching FIFA bending over in front of Trump for a World Cup that no one can afford tickets for. At least the Six Nations is coming up.