kpturner Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Apologies if this has already been posted, but at last a pragmatic view in the press on the points deduction: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/jeremywilson/blog/2009/05/05/southampton_saga_also_places_football_league_under_the_spotlight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 it is a good read. I also think that i liked the swipe by Fry about 'at the right interlectual level' He is too good to be a administrator getting him in as chairman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scummer Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 That's a good article. Legally, I can't see how the FL have a leg to stand on. They have based their decision on an accounting interpretation of things, rather than a legal one, and according to their own rules we haven't done anything wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItchenRob Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 At last ! Not only pragmatic but technically legally correct IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 The FL are a bunch of cowboys in blazers and we know ethics and football do not mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Good article by Jeremy Wilson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 A pity he didn't also pick up on the seemingly different approach applied to Stockport. Their 10 point deduction applies this season because they were not relegated by their failings on the pitch. The deduction has not caused them to be relegated either, so they start next season on par, 10 points above us. Where is their punishment for exactly the same 'crime'? I also thought from the beginning analogy that he was going to make mention of the referee's performance against Burnley. A reasonable article, but far from complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graffito Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 This article is spot on. It's a bad rule but that's not our problem. The FL has acted beyond it's remit in applying a moral judgement when all it should be doing is applying it's rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Good article, well argued by a journalist. Just think what a QC could do with it. I hope an appeal has been lodged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 So that's where Jeremy Wilson went after leaving the Echo... I did wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadhall Saint Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Good artical - puts the legal standpoint over very well. Like the bit about the Echo contacting the FL to be told that the 10 points would hit if the CLUB went into admin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 A pity he didn't also pick up on the seemingly different approach applied to Stockport. Their 10 point deduction applies this season because they were not relegated by their failings on the pitch. The deduction has not caused them to be relegated either, so they start next season on par, 10 points above us. Where is their punishment for exactly the same 'crime'? I also thought from the beginning analogy that he was going to make mention of the referee's performance against Burnley. A reasonable article, but far from complete. It depends on their CVA, as it's the club that has gone into administration. If HMRC are a major creditor then it'll be a 15 point penalty. It's then a question whether the FL feel they want to us further to see if we start on less than minus ten (i.e. minus 25). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjay77 Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 all good points and reading that its hard to understand at all how we have been hit the way we have. kind of makes the league look like a bunch of muppets that make things up as they go along. question I have is what happens if someone buys the club? Like say a new holding company buys southampton football club ltd. That holding company would not be in admin and neither would the club. so what would the points penalty be for? The holding company would still be in admin as I doubt the price they get for saints will clear the debts that have been racked up so we would be left carrying the penalty for a different company. I think the administrators have looked into an apeal and set things up for any new owners to mover forward if they so wish. personally i think they should go ahead with the apeal now and ram the FA's rules up its arse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Jeremy Wilson? As in ex(?) Echo staffer and writer of books on Saints? Not exactly going to say we deserve it then, is he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Jeremy Wilson? As in ex(?) Echo staffer and writer of books on Saints? Not exactly going to say we deserve it then, is he? Still his points are as valid as the Norwich Tranmere or Colchester people. Not as powerful perhaps but he is at least highlighting the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Still his points are as valid as the Norwich Tranmere or Colchester people. Not as powerful perhaps but he is at least highlighting the problem Im not saying they are not; the point being that he is not really an 'independent' journo picking up our torch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 So that's where Jeremy Wilson went after leaving the Echo... I did wonder. He did some freelance work, particularly for the Guardian, immediately after leaving the Echo. I believe he had to be "unattached" in order to retain the copyright of his book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Im not saying they are not; the point being that he is not really an 'independent' journo picking up our torch.but would you say Martin Samuel was and all the other WHU journos when they were/are fighting to stop their points deductions and fines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Love the closing comment quoting Mark Fry. Their rulebook clearly caused considerable confusion and, once an appeal has been heard at what Southampton administrator Mark Fry calls "the right intellectual level", I do wonder if the 10-point penalty will be overturned. Lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 but would you say Martin Samuel was and all the other WHU journos when they were/are fighting to stop their points deductions and fines? Sorry nick, Im not aware of reading anything by Martin Samuel or the other WHU (West Ham?) journos; so Im not sure what point you are trying make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Love the closing comment quoting Mark Fry. Lol! i noted that earlier. He is surely a very bright man, too bright to be an administrator eh Clapham...only teasing...oh you would have got that wouldn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Sorry nick, Im not aware of reading anything by Martin Samuel or the other WHU (West Ham?) journos; so Im not sure what point you are trying make. You dont know of Journalist of the year who is a WHU fan and was defending them during the Tevez saga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slickmick Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Maybe the tide is turning in our favour at last. So far the last few days have been full of positives. Being able to start next season is looking a bit more hopeful and now all we need is to start it on zero points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pancake Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 You dont know of Journalist of the year who is a WHU fan and was defending them during the Tevez saga Sorry? Of course I know who Samuel is; my point was I hadnt read anything by him about points deductions. From what you have put, I would assume he was on West Ham's side in their fight with the PL; and he is a West Ham fan. Which is kind of my point... Mr Wilson, being related to Saints in some way (he might even be a big season ticket holding fan, I dont know) is of course going to come out and say that we shouldnt have the points taken off us. It is no different from people on here posting the same. What Im yet to see is an independent jounrolist print the same sort of stuff. For me, that will hold more clout that 1000 Saints fans writing it, as it would mean that someone else views it the way a lot of Saints fans do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Sorry? Of course I know who Samuel is; my point was I hadnt read anything by him about points deductions. From what you have put, I would assume he was on West Ham's side in their fight with the PL; and he is a West Ham fan. Which is kind of my point... Mr Wilson, being related to Saints in some way (he might even be a big season ticket holding fan, I dont know) is of course going to come out and say that we shouldnt have the points taken off us. It is no different from people on here posting the same. What Im yet to see is an independent jounrolist print the same sort of stuff. For me, that will hold more clout that 1000 Saints fans writing it, as it would mean that someone else views it the way a lot of Saints fans do. but by him highlighting it keeps the conversation alive and others may tag on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintstr1 Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 (edited) I totally agree with everything the Journalist writes and surely any competant Lawyer could drive a coach & horses through the FA's ruling. I also fail to understand how two clubs who committed the same crime during the 08/09 season can start the 09/10 season in the same division with a 10 point difference. Talking about things being moraly wrong surely this is,(and probably Legaly wrong as well), either the FA should rescind our 10 point deduction or force Stockport to carry theres into League one for next season. Edited 5 May, 2009 by saintstr1 Missed words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eelpie Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 I...any competant Lawyer could drive a coach & horses through the FA's ruling. I think you mean FL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 I totally agree with everything the Journalist writes and surely any competant Lawyer could drive a coach & horses through the FA's ruling. I also fail to understand how two clubs who committed the same crime during the 08/09 season can start the 09/10 season in the same division with a 10 point difference. Talking about things being moraly wrong surely this is,(and probably Legaly wrong as well), either the FA should rescind our 10 point deduction or force Stockport to carry theres into League one also. This is the problem though.Norwich Barnsley Luton B'mouth fans were on our case as they felt let down and now we will be on Stockports case.It shows there is no consistancy or leadership in the FL. Lutons points deduction was disgusting and they have been wronged more than any team around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Sorry? Of course I know who Samuel is; my point was I hadnt read anything by him about points deductions. From what you have put, I would assume he was on West Ham's side in their fight with the PL; and he is a West Ham fan. Which is kind of my point... Mr Wilson, being related to Saints in some way (he might even be a big season ticket holding fan, I dont know) is of course going to come out and say that we shouldnt have the points taken off us. It is no different from people on here posting the same. What Im yet to see is an independent jounrolist print the same sort of stuff. For me, that will hold more clout that 1000 Saints fans writing it, as it would mean that someone else views it the way a lot of Saints fans do. Martin Samuel wrote a large article slaughtering the league for the way they make it up as they go along and talking specifically about our situation. I think it was in the Mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Good article by Jeremy Wilson Agreed Duncan, I think that another point not clarified very well - is that the position regarding ownership of the stadium itself (SMS) which is ... I believe? ...owned by a separate company within Leisure Holdings Group ... The largest part of the debt is obviously the stadium itself ..and although not insignificant ..the overdraft debt (of SFC) to their bank is considerably less than the £30 million fig. everyone is bandying about. Is this the case ...Does SFC " own " the stadium ? ..or is it the "Arena Company" who are officially owners.? It's never been totally clear to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stirchleysaint Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Good article, well argued by a journalist. Just think what a QC could do with it. I hope an appeal has been lodged. Its irrelevant Weston as the football club wasn't able to gain enough points to stay up regardless of whether points deductions were enacted or not. Therefore, what applies to the start of next season is the following. Whether the club: enter into any arrangement with its creditors or some part of them in respect of the payment of its debts or part of them as a company voluntary arrangement under the Insolvency Act 1986 or Scheme of Arrangement under the Companies Act 1985 The context has changed and therefore needs to be considered in light of that. This thread is about yesterday's battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leslie Charteris Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 I hope the FL lawyers are quaking in their boots - they should be - and that whoever takes over has the determination and the wherewithal to take them on. 10 points back please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rational Rich Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Its irrelevant Weston as the football club wasn't able to gain enough points to stay up regardless of whether points deductions were enacted or not. Therefore, what applies to the start of next season is the following. Whether the club: The context has changed and therefore needs to be considered in light of that. This thread is about yesterday's battle. Think jeremy is spot on (would recommend his excellent cult heroes book too if you haven't read it). The thing is, with the FL ignoring the most basic element of company law (ie each co is an independent entity, legally different people), it's impossible to judge what will happen. But, provided that the club stays out of any insolvency proceedings (ie admin, cva etc) the insolvency rules should not apply. As I understand it, the further points deductions for leeds, bournemouth etc have been as a result of not coming out of admin by way of a cva. If the club is not in administration, then how can it be punished for not coming out of it in the right manner? Also, I understood that the points were deducted in order for the FL to approve the transfer of the "golden share" from the company in admin to the company which bought the business and assets of the club. If the new buyers buy the shares of SFCL, the golden share won't need to be transferred anywhere, so again no grounds to deduct points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 If his analysis of the points deduction is as simple as his analysis of our post prem spending then we may not have that good an agrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 Its irrelevant Weston as the football club wasn't able to gain enough points to stay up regardless of whether points deductions were enacted or not. Therefore, what applies to the start of next season is the following. Whether the club: The context has changed and therefore needs to be considered in light of that. This thread is about yesterday's battle. The football club won't need a CVA, it will either continue trading out of administration under new owners or it will be wound up. The clause you quote either won't apply or won't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWD Posted 5 May, 2009 Share Posted 5 May, 2009 What a brilliant article, its absolutely spot on. The FL gave us a deduction just because they were scared of the backlash of other clubs, and also that other clubs may do the same thing. As the article says - we broke none of the laws that theyve set, so how can we be punished? They just bottled it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 6 May, 2009 Share Posted 6 May, 2009 The FL cannot afford to let us win the case.It would open them up to us sueing them as they basically made us lose incentive to work that little harder to stay up.I understand they could argue 'but the incentive was not -10 next season' . That would not hold water IMO as we were as a club desensitised by the decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clapham Saint Posted 6 May, 2009 Share Posted 6 May, 2009 all good points and reading that its hard to understand at all how we have been hit the way we have. kind of makes the league look like a bunch of muppets that make things up as they go along. question I have is what happens if someone buys the club? Like say a new holding company buys southampton football club ltd. That holding company would not be in admin and neither would the club. so what would the points penalty be for? The holding company would still be in admin as I doubt the price they get for saints will clear the debts that have been racked up so we would be left carrying the penalty for a different company. I think the administrators have looked into an apeal and set things up for any new owners to mover forward if they so wish. personally i think they should go ahead with the apeal now and ram the FA's rules up its arse Not that far off the mark IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjay77 Posted 6 May, 2009 Share Posted 6 May, 2009 The FL cannot afford to let us win the case.It would open them up to us sueing them as they basically made us lose incentive to work that little harder to stay up.I understand they could argue 'but the incentive was not -10 next season' . That would not hold water IMO as we were as a club desensitised by the decision. We were also a club that thought the Holding company went into admin so the football club would not get a punishment. league change the rules and our priorities change at the last min. that has to have a massive effect on our possible results? League could get a bit of a stuffing if we get the points overturned. I guess they will look to make a deal at some point to remove the points but no further action should be taken. That of course would open it up for Luton to have another crack at the league along with a few others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 6 May, 2009 Share Posted 6 May, 2009 Whether the points deduction is right and proper for us, the Football League is a joke organisation that, together with the FA, has overseen a ridiculous rise in the debt of ALL football clubs - specifically those at the top end, yet espouses/d prudence and operating within 'normal sensible' business parameters. They would rather a gun-runner bought a club and propped it up (even temporarily) than evaluate the whole business they have mismanaged and bring it back in the realms of reality. If the Glazers go bust and Manchester United go bust it will be interesting to see how 'football responds'... In their deals with Sky (who in my opinion are blameless) the FA and League neglected to sell the milk with the cream - leaving Sky laughing at their ineptitude and creating (along with the Bosman ruling) a model of financial support that gives all the cash to those who need it least. Put it another way, if the League were the government, the health and welfare benefits would be reserved for those earning £150k plus - and to hell with the rest of us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eelpie Posted 6 May, 2009 Share Posted 6 May, 2009 Whether the points deduction is right and proper for us, the Football League is a joke organisation that, together with the FA, has overseen a ridiculous rise in the debt of ALL football clubs - specifically those at the top end, yet espouses/d prudence and operating within 'normal sensible' business parameters. They would rather a gun-runner bought a club and propped it up (even temporarily) than evaluate the whole business they have mismanaged and bring it back in the realms of reality. If the Glazers go bust and Manchester United go bust it will be interesting to see how 'football responds'... In their deals with Sky (who in my opinion are blameless) the FA and League neglected to sell the milk with the cream - leaving Sky laughing at their ineptitude and creating (along with the Bosman ruling) a model of financial support that gives all the cash to those who need it least. Put it another way, if the League were the government, the health and welfare benefits would be reserved for those earning £150k plus - and to hell with the rest of us Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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