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Thread: Russian nerve agent attack

  1. #1

    Default Russian nerve agent attack

    I know discussed in other areas but very impressed with solidarity shown by other nations against these cnts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by whelk View Post
    I know discussed in other areas but very impressed with solidarity shown by other nations against these cnts.
    Strange silence from the arch-tweeter Mr Trump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecuk268 View Post
    Strange silence from the arch-tweeter Mr Trump.
    Apart from closing a russian consulate and kicking out 60 "spies" that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Window Cleaner View Post
    Apart from closing a russian consulate and kicking out 60 "spies" that is.
    Indeed, but he usually tweets comments on everything under the sun but has not said a word about this.

    I was reading an interview with the ex-director of the CIA who doesn't rule out the possibility that Putin has some damaging material on Trump hence his reluctance to voice any criticism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecuk268 View Post
    Indeed, but he usually tweets comments on everything under the sun but has not said a word about this.
    Probably because it's something fairly serious that he actually intends to act upon rather than just playing the village bufoon.
    I just hope that it's not a set up cos then we'll look really, really silly and would no doubt bring down the May governement..
    Last edited by Window Cleaner; 28-03-2018 at 05:03 PM.

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    Apparently the young lady is getting a bit better. And the stuff was all over the place. Botched job then. Look how much more efficient that stuff that did for Kim's half brother was.
    Last edited by Window Cleaner; 29-03-2018 at 03:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Window Cleaner View Post
    Apparently the young lady is getting a bit better. And the stuff was all over the place. Botched job then.
    Mainly on the door handle of their house according to this (paywall):

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...home-37chc2qvc

    "Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey also suffered poisoning but has since been released from hospital. He is believed to have visited the house."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey Grandad View Post
    Mainly on the door handle of their house according to this (paywall):

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...home-37chc2qvc

    "Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey also suffered poisoning but has since been released from hospital. He is believed to have visited the house."
    But wasn't it also in tha car ventilation system and on the tombs of the wife and son? Compared to the VX agent used on Kim Jong Nam in Malaysia the nerve agent either wasn't very efficient or in far lesser quantity. KJN had vials of Atropine in his bag and yet the agent used was totally effective. Why they both turned their phones off for 4 hours is yet to be explained I believe.
    Last edited by Window Cleaner; 29-03-2018 at 03:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Window Cleaner View Post
    But wasn't it also in tha car ventilation system and on the tombs of the wife and son? Compared to the VX agent used on Kim Jong Nam in Malaysia the nerve agent either wasn't very efficient or in far lesser quantity. KJN had vials of Atropine in his bag and yet the agent used was totally effective. Why they both turned their phones off for 4 hours is yet to be explained I believe.
    I was just passing on what I read this morning, but I'm sure that there is a lot more to this incident than we shall ever now.

    Just to throw this in too:

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/op...ink/27/03/amp/

    "A source close to Skripal has said he was investigating the collusion between the Internet Research Agency, AIQ, Cambridge Analytica and its parent company, SCL."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey Grandad View Post
    I was just passing on what I read this morning, but I'm sure that there is a lot more to this incident than we shall ever now.

    Just to throw this in too:

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/op...ink/27/03/amp/

    "A source close to Skripal has said he was investigating the collusion between the Internet Research Agency, AIQ, Cambridge Analytica and its parent company, SCL."

    Probably just some tin-foil hat brigade stuff there. As you say we'll probably never know the truth. I however believe Putin when he said "If we'd wanted to kill them, then they'd be dead".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Window Cleaner View Post
    Apparently the young lady is getting a bit better. And the stuff was all over the place. Botched job then. Look how much more efficient that stuff that did for Kim's half brother was.
    Which raises a few suspicions. Another defector was quoted as saying that when the Russians want traitors dead they are usually very efficient. Maybe it was a rogue element working without official approval.

    Another thing that amused me was the sight of men in big hazmat suits with breathing sets working in the centre of Salisbury with shoppers walking past about 20 yards away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecuk268 View Post
    Which raises a few suspicions. Another defector was quoted as saying that when the Russians want traitors dead they are usually very efficient. Maybe it was a rogue element working without official approval.

    Another thing that amused me was the sight of men in big hazmat suits with breathing sets working in the centre of Salisbury with shoppers walking past about 20 yards away.
    It's like their trucker neighbour saying they should be left to die. Well not if the woman is getting better though I'd have thought.
    Why would he say that really?
    Last edited by Window Cleaner; 29-03-2018 at 05:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Window Cleaner View Post
    I however believe Putin when he said "If we'd wanted to kill them, then they'd be dead".
    It was clearly intended as a message - as was the Polonium 210. If there was simply a desire to kill without drawing attention they would have used a 'suicide', 'accident' or heart attack method. The same thing happened to a former Ukrainian President when he failed to do what Putin wanted.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...disappear.html

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    So then, I've been reading up on this a bit. Apparently the daughter had returned to live in Russia and was just on a visit to the UK, having arrived just the day before apparently. The dad went to pick her up at Heathrow in his neighbour's 4WD and then they both got affected by a nerve agent, having both turned off their phones for 4 hours apparently. Now she's getting better and he isn't yet. So now me, having watched far too many episodes of The Americans, would say that they either tryed to get something from Porton Down from a fellow agent within or she brought the stuff with her having previously been dosed up to the eyeballs with antidotes. May will be made to look very, very silly over all of this..
    Last edited by Window Cleaner; 29-03-2018 at 04:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Window Cleaner View Post
    So then, I've been reading up on this a bit. Apparently the daughter had returned to live in Russia and was just on a visit to the UK, having arrived just the day before apparently. The dad went to pick her up at Heathrow in his neighbour's 4WD and then they both got affected by a nerve agent, having both turned off their phones for 4 hours apparently. Now she's getting better and he isn't yet. So now me, having watched far too many episodes of The Americans, would say that they either tryed to get something from Portdown from a fellow agent within or she brought the stuff with her having previously been dosed up to the eyeballs with antidotes. May will be made to look very, very silly over all of this..
    Erm. Or someone smeared the stuff on the door handle and left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Erm. Or someone smeared the stuff on the door handle and left.
    Just to make them a bit sick and spread the stuff about you mean. VX agents are lethal, you don't recover unless you have the antidotes virtually immediately and they apparently wandered about for hours before collapsing in a shopping mall . Kim Jong Nam died within hours, so this product is evidently far less lethal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Erm. Or someone smeared the stuff on the door handle and left.
    Nah its definitely the theory about the antidotes. Definitely.

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    Lots and lots of variables. Kim had it smeared directly on to his face where the skin is a lot thinner. Hands are dont absorb chemicals well. It was raining, maybe most it got washed off - water breaks down Novichok. It was cold. Maybe the Skripals were wearing gloves. Maybe they tried to use a very low dose to avoid collateral damage and the political repercussions of hundreds of dead in Salisbury. Maybe they thought having them live on as vegetables was more effective than killing them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Lots and lots of variables. Kim had it smeared directly on to his face where the skin is a lot thinner. Hands are dont absorb chemicals well. It was raining, maybe most it got washed off - water breaks down Novichok. It was cold. Maybe the Skripals were wearing gloves. Maybe they tried to use a very low dose to avoid collateral damage and the political repercussions of hundreds of dead in Salisbury. Maybe they thought having them live on as vegetables was more effective than killing them.
    Possible, many outlets are now reporting (or surmising anyway) that she was the target and not him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Window Cleaner View Post
    Just to make them a bit sick and spread the stuff about you mean. VX agents are lethal, you don't recover unless you have the antidotes virtually immediately and they apparently wandered about for hours before collapsing in a shopping mall . Kim Jong Nam died within hours, so this product is evidently far less lethal.
    The lethality depends upon the dose and the age of the active agent, I am led to believe. Depending on the dose the effects can take some time to manifest themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Window Cleaner View Post
    Possible, many outlets are now reporting (or surmising anyway) that she was the target and not him.
    That was reported a while ago, one of their relatives said her boyfriend’s mother was high up in the Russian secret service. It would tie in with what an ex Russian agent was saying on radio 5 a while ago. He reckoned it made no sense killing the dad because he was a busted flush, they could have killed him at will years ago. The daughter could have been carrying on his work, if she was working for our secret service then it could explain why our government are so certain it was Putin.

    Everything about this is so cloak and dagger, there could be any amount of theories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    That was reported a while ago, one of their relatives said her boyfriend’s mother was high up in the Russian secret service. It would tie in with what an ex Russian agent was saying on radio 5 a while ago. He reckoned it made no sense killing the dad because he was a busted flush, they could have killed him at will years ago. The daughter could have been carrying on his work, if she was working for our secret service then it could explain why our government are so certain it was Putin.
    It could be the reverse. The boyfriend deliberately paired up with her in order to gain her trust and find out where her dad was.

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    So many experts on military grade nerve agents around now, all because they've 'read something'. Some stories saying this, some saying that. One thing's for sure 'apparently', is that our whole Government, shadow as well, are in a major 'Brexit' subterfuge... 'VX works this way so Novichok is more powerful so works this way, they should all have died'. Not giving an ounce of recognition to the scientists of Porton Down assisting the Doctors/Nurses at Salisbury Gen. 'Everyone else is wrong apart from me'. Insert 'This applies to you to' etc. I just hope Sergei doesn't wake up and say, '****in' hell, thought I'd done enough for the both of us.'

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    Quote Originally Posted by whelk View Post
    I know discussed in other areas but very impressed with solidarity shown by other nations against these cnts.
    I can understand the sentiment about Russians killing former Russians in a vile way but the "solidarity" from the EU by sending Russian diplomats back home is rather stupid. They're escalating things without having real proof which is not done in diplomatic circles. Besides, Putin is much better in this game than all those EU-politicians together so in the end it will be all meaningless and the position of European countries at the negotiating table will become weaker. I specifically don't understand the Dutch government, in 2014 a total of 193 dutchmen were killed in the MH-17 accident (a Russian BUK rocket shot down a plane from Malaysian Airlines above Ukraine) and though there's more "proof" that Russians were involved than in this Skripal case, no Russian diplomat was expelled. Of course the relatives of the victims of MH-17 are furious now... In the near future the Dutch government might need the help from Russia to get the idiots who shot the plane down, I guess a short "njet" will be the answer. Surely the EU must be much more important than it's citizens...
    Last edited by van Hanegem; 30-03-2018 at 02:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by van Hanegem View Post
    I specifically don't understand the Dutch government, in 2014 a total of 193 dutchmen were killed in the MH-17 accident (a Russian BUK rocket shot down a plane from Malaysian Airlines above Ukraine) and though there's more "proof" that Russians were involved than in this Skripal case, no Russian diplomat was expelled.
    Presumably the Dutch government is waiting for the final report of the investigation into the incident - due later this year I think. Once the report is released I would be surprised, depending on what it says, if there isn't co-ordinated international action then too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Presumably the Dutch government is waiting for the final report of the investigation into the incident - due later this year I think. Once the report is released I would be surprised, depending on what it says, if there isn't co-ordinated international action then too.
    Yep, the final report is due later this year and there are indications that (former) Russian military were involved in delivering the BUK missile. I didn't expect Russia to extradite those people before but now we've given them a reason too. It's really stupid. Of course we can send some more diplomats back home but it will get us nowhere. Hopefully they won't so foolish increase the boycot of Russian products as this is already damaging the export to Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by van Hanegem View Post
    Yep, the final report is due later this year and there are indications that (former) Russian military were involved in delivering the BUK missile. I didn't expect Russia to extradite those people before but now we've given them a reason too. It's really stupid. Of course we can send some more diplomats back home but it will get us nowhere. Hopefully they won't so foolish increase the boycot of Russian products as this is already damaging the export to Russia.
    Sending diplomats / spies home is really only symbolic. but the fact that 25 countries acted in concert is a powerful message to Putin to change his approach. Its designed, along with sanctions, to be a big shot across the bows rather than an attempt to sink the ship. If the west wanted to cause chaos in Russia it could cut them off from the internet or SWIFT banking system.

    PS Don't buy into the Russian narrative that any Russians in Eastern Ukraine are volunteers on holiday from the military and the equipment they use was captured from Ukrainian bases. There is a good citizens observatory who document Russian military units and their equipment. Nearly all of the officers in the militias are on formal rotation from Russian regular forces and much of the equipment units use was never sold to Ukraine or used by them. Maskirovka (denial and deception) has been an intrinsic part of Russian military doctrine for 100 years
    Last edited by buctootim; 30-03-2018 at 03:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Sending diplomats / spies home is really only symbolic. but the fact that 25 countries acted in concert is a powerful message to Putin to change his approach. Its designed, along with sanctions, to be a big shot across the bows rather than an attempt to sink the ship. If the west wanted to cause chaos in Russia it could cut them off from the internet or SWIFT banking system.

    PS Don't buy into the Russian narrative that any Russians in Eastern Ukraine are volunteers on holiday from the military and the equipment they use was captured from Ukrainian bases. There is a good citizens observatory who document Russian military units and their equipment. Nearly all of the officers in the militias are on formal rotation from Russian regular forces and much of the equipment units use was never sold to Ukraine or used by them. Maskirovka (denial and deception) has been an intrinsic part of Russian military doctrine for 100 years
    Don't worry Tim, I do not trust anything Russian authorities are telling in general and I've also seen the images of the rocket being transported to Ukraine and heared the soundbites of the Russian officer who was responsible for the delivery. Thing is, we get to hear almost everyday for a year now how dangerous Putin and his cronies are, as if he's longing to invade Europe. As if Putin has anything to gain from that...
    Do you remember the story about the NSA tapping into the mobile of Merkel (amongst many other Heads of States)? Nothing came out of this as German investigators didn't find any "real proof". What do you think the reaction would be when it was the Russians who were monitoring the communications of European leaders? Would they wait for hard evidence?

  29. #29

    Default Russian nerve agent attack

    Quote Originally Posted by buctootim View Post
    Lots and lots of variables. Kim had it smeared directly on to his face where the skin is a lot thinner. Hands are dont absorb chemicals well. It was raining, maybe most it got washed off - water breaks down Novichok. It was cold. Maybe the Skripals were wearing gloves. Maybe they tried to use a very low dose to avoid collateral damage and the political repercussions of hundreds of dead in Salisbury. Maybe they thought having them live on as vegetables was more effective than killing them.
    Think you pointed out that if FSB want someone dead then they are more than capable. The Kremlin have thought this through Iím sure about the denials, inevitable conspiracy theories of false flaggers etc. bit doubt they expected such support from other countries united in giving Putin the message.

    I hate all this donít upset Putin he is a formidable enemy stance. Yeah he is an evil fcker and needs standing up to. Well done the other countries.

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    I think Putin is more than happy with the situation, it's straight out of the dictator's handbook. Chapter 1: Find a foreign enemy to galvanise the population and distract everyone from domestic social and economic issues. He doesn't actually want a fight, he's basically doing what Kim is doing.

    I'm guessing the British government have some pretty strong evidence, as we don't really have anything to gain from a false flag operation. I'm sure the Kremlin are more than capable of having spies bumped off but that's not to say they don't make mistakes occasionally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    I'm guessing the British government have some pretty strong evidence
    Apparently, not as strong as Boris Johnson claimed last week, when he said that the guys at Porton down had stated 'categorically' that there was 'no doubt' that the agent came from Russia.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8286761.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bexy View Post
    Apparently, not as strong as Boris Johnson claimed last week, when he said that the guys at Porton down had stated 'categorically' that there was 'no doubt' that the agent came from Russia.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8286761.html
    Basically corroborates what I said the other day.

    Whilst semantically Johnson may have been wrong, the info from Porton Down - "it is Novichok" - plus the other intelligence the government is privy to left them in no doubt at all. And apparently we have convinced 25 other countries sufficiently as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjii View Post
    Basically corroborates what I said the other day.

    Whilst semantically Johnson may have been wrong, the info from Porton Down - "it is Novichok" - plus the other intelligence the government is privy to left them in no doubt at all. And apparently we have convinced 25 other countries sufficiently as well.
    Point taken, but when the foreign secretary is doing TV interviews and claiming that our evidence is based on our chemical weapons experts telling him directly that there is no doubt the agent came from Russia, and those experts then go on TV to refute that, do you not see that as a cause for concern?

    Watch the video where Johnson made that claim, and look at him squirming and stuttering while he is trying to answer the question. You don't need to be any kind of psychologist or body language expert to deduce that he isn't being entirely honest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bexy View Post
    Point taken, but when the foreign secretary is doing TV interviews and claiming that our evidence is based on our chemical weapons experts telling him directly that there is no doubt the agent came from Russia, and those experts then go on TV to refute that, do you not see that as a cause for concern?

    Watch the video where Johnson made that claim, and look at him squirming and stuttering while he is trying to answer the question. You don't need to be any kind of psychologist or body language expert to deduce that he isn't being entirely honest.
    Conclusion: BoJo is a ****wit. The same ****wit who 'confirmed' the false and hugely damaging story that Nazinin Zadari-Radcliffe was 'training journalists' in Iran.

    Anything beyond that is a stretch. Porton Down have confirmed that the agent could only be manufactured by a 'state actor'. Porton Down are not GCHQ or MI6. Intelligence, as well as chemical analysis, feeds into any evidence passed on to other countries about the attack.

    It's fine to be sceptical, but also worth remembering that it's the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons that is the final arbiter - an organisation that Russia is currently being uncooperative with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbal View Post
    It's fine to be sceptical
    is it? It seems to make Corbyn enemy of the state or a Rusky lover.

    Maybe after what happened with WMDs and Iraq the government will publish the other evidence they have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbal View Post
    It's fine to be sceptical, but also worth remembering that it's the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons that is the final arbiter - an organisation that Russia is currently being uncooperative with.
    And yet we have denied their request to work directly with our own team of investigators, and they are now the ones calling for an extraordinary meeting of the OPCW to resolve the situation, which our foreign office has described as merely a diversionary tactic.

    Seems to me our own government is being just as uncooperative, if not more so, as they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    is it? It seems to make Corbyn enemy of the state or a Rusky lover.

    Maybe after what happened with WMDs and Iraq the government will publish the other evidence they have.
    Any political leader with good judgement would have learned after the attack that Novichok is produced by Russia, which also had the means, method and motive. No one else does. All the work now is focused on putting the pieces of the puzzle of how exactly the attack was conducted, and within the Kremlin by whom (not a simple answer).

    Corbyn's not an enemy of the state, just an incompetent old fool who can't resist his knee-jerk anti-Western responses. As the Jewdas affair demonstrates, where he was 'present but not singing along with the "**** the police, etc" song', he has not an ounce of political sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbal View Post
    Any political leader with good judgement would have learned after the attack that Novichok is produced by Russia, which also had the means, method and motive. No one else does.
    Simply not true...

    https://consortiumnews.com/2018/03/1...spy-poisoning/

    Now I'm not saying that I believe everything in this report, as there is no firm evidence provided to support it so I remain skeptical, but it does demonstrate that Russia was by no means the only party with the means, motive and opportunity to carry this out.

    So please forgive me if I will not so readily accept the conclusions that our own toxic and deceitful government managed to jump to at such an alarming speed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bexy View Post
    Simply not true...

    https://consortiumnews.com/2018/03/1...spy-poisoning/

    Now I'm not saying that I believe everything in this report, as there is no firm evidence provided to support it so I remain skeptical, but it does demonstrate that Russia was by no means the only party with the means, motive and opportunity to carry this out.

    So please forgive me if I will not so readily accept the conclusions that our own toxic and deceitful government managed to jump to at such an alarming speed.
    Itís weird how so many nations have followed the UKs lead. If only they read a few blogs, eh?

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    the PM in waitng and Vince Cable still have not made an appearance in the City that has been greatly affected by this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bexy View Post
    And yet we have denied their request to work directly with our own team of investigators, and they are now the ones calling for an extraordinary meeting of the OPCW to resolve the situation, which our foreign office has described as merely a diversionary tactic.

    Seems to me our own government is being just as uncooperative, if not more so, as they are.
    So the Russians want access to our evidence so that they can launch an investigation into themselves, which definitely wont be totally corrupt and find the Russian government completely innocent on all charges.

    Nothing at all to do with:
    a) Trying to save face by publicly giving the appearance of co-operation.
    b) Trying to find out the sources of our intelligence, which are probably more accurate and in depth than what some guy reckons on twitter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bexy View Post
    Simply not true...

    https://consortiumnews.com/2018/03/1...spy-poisoning/

    Now I'm not saying that I believe everything in this report, as there is no firm evidence provided to support it so I remain skeptical, but it does demonstrate that Russia was by no means the only party with the means, motive and opportunity to carry this out.

    So please forgive me if I will not so readily accept the conclusions that our own toxic and deceitful government managed to jump to at such an alarming speed.
    If I ever commit a murder I really hope you're the investigating detective.

    The cui bono fallacy is the last refuge of conspiro-loons. The minute you buy into the whole 'who benefits?' guff, it's like having an evidential lobotomy. To follow it through you have to argue that umbrellas cause rain. Or that 9/11 was an inside job. Or Lee Rigby's family were crisis actors for the British deep state. Or, to put it in reverse, that Assad couldn't have used chemical weapons because it was against his interests... and so, on ad nauseum.

    The other thing about the cui bono fallacy is that it's a keyboard warrior's dream, because it requires no evidence whatsoever, just the laser-like intelligence of the warrior himself (always a him), who, with unique x-ray specs, can see what all the pathetic sheeple cannot.

    So who do I get to kill?

  43. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbal View Post
    Novichok is produced by Russia, which also had the means, method and motive. No one else does.
    That is simply not true, any country could have produced it as Porton Down clarified today "probably only within the capability of a state actor". As for motive, there are plenty of countries would have a motive to frame Russia.

    What happened in Salisbury was the equivalent of a murderer leaving his driving licence at the scene, there are only really two plausible explanations.

    1. Russia sending a message (most likely)
    2. Another countries agency wanting it to look like Russia sending a message.

    It’s obviously most likely to be 1 but only a fool would rule out 2 unless there is more compelling evidence, especially after the Iraq WMD deception carried out by our secret services.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldNick View Post
    the PM in waitng and Vince Cable still have not made an appearance in the City that has been greatly affected by this.
    Has Boris Johnson visited the sandwich shop yet?

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    There's a few things here, firstly the russians wanting to be part of the investigation, of course they would, if i murdered someone, then i'd want to be part of the investigating team. Maybe we should let Ian Brady investigate the moors murders.

    Then there's Corbyn, as the official leader of the opposition he's part of the privvy council. He could easily get access to the evidence the government shared with other countries, wonder why he's not done this, not that i'd trust him with it.

    Putin is reportedly the richest man in the world, hmmm how did that happen.

    A passenger airliner gets shot down over Ukraine, nothing to do with us gov. Russian missile used, nothing to do with us.

    Crimea gets annexed, how, russian troops disguised as pro russian citizens, nothing to do with putin.

    Litvinenko poisoned with radiation in london, the suspect back in russia, protected by putin. Think of it. A nuclear weapon attack on british soil sanctioned by the russian state.

    None of this proves anything, but it should be enough to scare you, this guy will keep pushing the boundaries till you push back.

    All this is out in the open, imagine the ****e the security services know about which we don't.

    Again, Corbyn can get access to all this, but it doesn't suit his agenda.

  47. Default

    I think we know a bit more than we're letting on here.
    Security services believe that they have pinpointed the location of the covert Russian laboratory that manufactured the weapons-grade nerve agent used in Salisbury, The Times has learnt. Ministers and security officials were able to identify the source using scientific analysis and intelligence in the days after the attempted murder of Sergei and Yulia Skripal a month ago, according to security sources.

  48. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    It’s weird how so many nations have followed the UKs lead. If only they read a few blogs, eh?
    You mean like how Bush & Blair managed to convince a whole load of other governments that Iraq definitely had WMDs?

  49. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbal View Post
    If I ever commit a murder I really hope you're the investigating detective.

    The cui bono fallacy is the last refuge of conspiro-loons. The minute you buy into the whole 'who benefits?' guff, it's like having an evidential lobotomy. To follow it through you have to argue that umbrellas cause rain. Or that 9/11 was an inside job. Or Lee Rigby's family were crisis actors for the British deep state. Or, to put it in reverse, that Assad couldn't have used chemical weapons because it was against his interests... and so, on ad nauseum.

    The other thing about the cui bono fallacy is that it's a keyboard warrior's dream, because it requires no evidence whatsoever, just the laser-like intelligence of the warrior himself (always a him), who, with unique x-ray specs, can see what all the pathetic sheeple cannot.

    So who do I get to kill?
    Yes, I get that cui bono is a fallacy in scientific terms. But when you are trying to ascertain who carried out a particular crime, it is an essential question to ask when compiling a list of suspects who need to be investigated. However, what our government seem to have done in this case is to presume Russian guilt first before carrying out a thorough investigation, which itself is a very backwards way of beginning any investigation, unless you a) already have the concrete evidence you need (in which case there would surely have been no need for BoJo to lie about it), or b) know it wasn't them but are trying to frame them anyway.

    And when the only 'evidence' that the public has been given so far by our government - that we know it was the Russians because the guys at Porton Down told us so - is proven to be completely untrue, then is it really any wonder that people start looking for possible alternative explanations?

    Like I said, I remain skeptical without evidence and that applies to both the government stance and to any other alternatives. I'm certainly not going to blindly throw my support behind the government line when they are proven to be a bunch of liars and can't be trusted to tell the truth about anything.

  50. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bexy View Post
    Yes, I get that cui bono is a fallacy in scientific terms. But when you are trying to ascertain who carried out a particular crime, it is an essential question to ask when compiling a list of suspects who need to be investigated. However, what our government seem to have done in this case is to presume Russian guilt first before carrying out a thorough investigation, which itself is a very backwards way of beginning any investigation, unless you a) already have the concrete evidence you need (in which case there would surely have been no need for BoJo to lie about it), or b) know it wasn't them but are trying to frame them anyway.

    And when the only 'evidence' that the public has been given so far by our government - that we know it was the Russians because the guys at Porton Down told us so - is proven to be completely untrue, then is it really any wonder that people start looking for possible alternative explanations?

    Like I said, I remain skeptical without evidence and that applies to both the government stance and to any other alternatives. I'm certainly not going to blindly throw my support behind the government line when they are proven to be a bunch of liars and can't be trusted to tell the truth about anything.
    "completely untrue" - why do you persist with this silly hyperbole?

    You say cui bono is relevant to identifying suspects then you wonder why Russia was quickly identified as a suspect in the attempted murder of a former Russian double agent.

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