"There's only one Johnny Hartson"

[Frank's cousin]

Whilst I have no problem with John Hartson, and my heart goes out to him and his family in respect of his current circumstances. Why is it when someone becomes seriously ill, or dies, they suddenly become 'alright' in everybody's eyes?

 

The Jade Goody thing is a good example, or even Michael Jackson.

 

They are not suddenly alright, but a be honest we would never have 'hated him' if he had been banging them in for us - taken a few of teh opposition out wearing a Saints shirt... Should have known this would have degenerated as a thread... just thought that when alls said and done we are Lucky - lucy to have a club, lucky to have our health, lucky to be sitting in the sun on Saturday knowing life and the futures good... Taking 30 seconds to just let someone know who is well known in the game that we appreciate our own good fortune, but can still reecognise that there are more important things in life than kicking a ball around, was just a thought that it might just show we are decent fans with a bit of class and maybe give JH a bit of a boost.

 

As to the the army debate, please thats for another thread. This is about football and players, not the politics and tragedies of armed conflict..please.

[rick1976.4.38]

even a good idea like this get twisted on here,as the stain writes,if you wanna sing good on ya,if you dont,no problem.enjoy the day,coyr.

[OldNick]

They are not suddenly alright, but a be honest we would never have 'hated him' if he had been banging them in for us - taken a few of teh opposition out wearing a Saints shirt... Should have known this would have degenerated as a thread... just thought that when alls said and done we are Lucky - lucy to have a club, lucky to have our health, lucky to be sitting in the sun on Saturday knowing life and the futures good... Taking 30 seconds to just let someone know who is well known in the game that we appreciate our own good fortune, but can still reecognise that there are more important things in life than kicking a ball around, was just a thought that it might just show we are decent fans with a bit of class and maybe give JH a bit of a boost.

 

As to the the army debate, please thats for another thread. This is about football and players, not the politics and tragedies of armed conflict..please.

If JH had not been struck down by a terrible illness is he one of the people you would ask a youngster to use as a role model?

Your point about our luck being healthy etc is pertinent of course.I still will not join in, and Im sure the majority of fans who do not come on this site will turn around and say 'what the F are we singing about him for'

As for showing we are class fans, i should think there are better ways of showing it.Sadly our reputation has been tarnished since the Cup final when we stayed behind and cheered our team and clapped the opposition.That is still something that other fans do not do in the quantity we did.

The Skates booed during TB's minutes silence but the media brushed that under the carpet and are seen as great fans.

[Toadhall Saint]

Good idea

[Fan The Flames]

As some one else said you don't need agreement on here. Signing is a democracy just start up the chant and see if it takes off. I think it won't but you can't knock the sentiment. Good luck John all football fans are behind you.

 

Just a very small aside, my wife worked with John Hartsons brother and Jason Cundies sister and both footballers got testicular cancer. So boys feel your balls.

[saintjay77]

Im with the excelent suggestion bregade. My wifes mum vagly knows him and im sure he will find out from various sources that his support is not just from those at clubs he has been at.

 

Good luck to him and anyone else in the same boat.

[St_Tel49]

Would it be better if the stadium announcer informed people of Hartson's illness and sent good wishes on behalf of the club and all saints fans. We in our turn would applaud the sentiment. Possibly better than randomly chanting his name.

[Doctoroncall]

As some one else said you don't need agreement on here. Signing is a democracy just start up the chant and see if it takes off. I think it won't but you can't knock the sentiment. Good luck John all football fans are behind you.

 

Just a very small aside, my wife worked with John Hartsons brother and Jason Cundies sister and both footballers got testicular cancer. So boys feel your balls.

 

I have the bizzare image in my head of 25k supports signing out Good Luck John!

[Wes Tender]

If JH had not been struck down by a terrible illness is he one of the people you would ask a youngster to use as a role model?

Your point about our luck being healthy etc is pertinent of course.I still will not join in, and Im sure the majority of fans who do not come on this site will turn around and say 'what the F are we singing about him for'

As for showing we are class fans, i should think there are better ways of showing it.Sadly our reputation has been tarnished since the Cup final when we stayed behind and cheered our team and clapped the opposition.That is still something that other fans do not do in the quantity we did.

The Skates booed during TB's minutes silence but the media brushed that under the carpet and are seen as great fans.

 

It's not often that we agree, Nick but I'm with you on this one.

 

Whereas I feel compassion towards Hartson, mainly on grounds that I wouldn't wish his life threatening illness on anybody, on the other hand, he doesn't really register on my consciousness as being somebody that I really care about either way. To join in a chant for him which I wouldn't do so for most other circumstances, seems rather hypocritical to me, so I will abstain.

 

Of course, if others wish to chant his name because they a) feel that it is a classy thing to do, b) just because he has been an extremely well paid footballer and we are watching a football match at the time, c) feel compelled to join in because everybody else does, then fine.

 

It's a free country. But include me out.

[St David]

Excellent suggestion, FC.

[Thedelldays]

I'm not singing in support of those muppets who CHOOSE to go out and get shot at; couldn't give one iota about them. Young lads dying due to mass conscription in either of the World Wars maybe, not this lot nowadays.

 

Somebody being struck down with cancer at the age of 34 through no fault of their own deserves a great deal more compassion in my book.

you idiot

[Thedelldays]

guarantee most in the ground wont have a clue what or why it is sung

[Arizona]

Whilst I have no problem with John Hartson, and my heart goes out to him and his family in respect of his current circumstances. Why is it when someone becomes seriously ill, or dies, they suddenly become 'alright' in everybody's eyes?

 

The Jade Goody thing is a good example, or even Michael Jackson.

 

When she died I was singing, "There's only one Grim Reaper!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Too soon?

[Nineteen Canteen]

When she died I was singing, "There's only one Grim Reaper!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Too soon?

 

Not soon enough - a representation of what is wrong in our society today. Her funeral was an undignified disgrace.

[Arizona]

Not soon enough - a representation of what is wrong in our society today. Her funeral was an undignified disgrace.

 

That's dangerously close to making sense. Are you feeling alright?

[supergoose]

Suggestion excellent, FC.

[Polaroid Saint]

I'm not singing in support of those muppets who CHOOSE to go out and get shot at; couldn't give one iota about them. Young lads dying due to mass conscription in either of the World Wars maybe, not this lot nowadays.

 

Somebody being struck down with cancer at the age of 34 through no fault of their own deserves a great deal more compassion in my book.

 

Most people are rightly outraged by the glib nature of this comment. But I'd like to say - he has a point.

 

A rather unworkable, impractical and overtly idealistic point, but a point none-the-less.

 

What SotonJoe misses is that most of these people aint muppets, but they have been mugged.

 

We are regularly told to celebrate the forces (particularly in Hants where all three are very well represented) and thank the individual soldiers for their 'bravery'. When in truth it's not bravery that takes these boys and girls to Afghanistan or the Falklands (etc) its f*cking politics, greed and mantaining the balance of power for the elite (not protecting or providing 'freedom').

 

Sadly so many of our young people, each generation, are conned by the (inglorious) history of the glory of war and believe it is somehow noble to kill or be killed for 'queen and country'. Frankly, that is ********; nothing noble in dying in the desert with plastic in your chest.

 

"To die for his mothers country is in every fathers wish" Hmmm

 

And PS;

 

I do hope he gets better but I've always considered Hartson to be a right twonk. ;-)

[Weston Super Saint]

Not soon enough - a representation of what is wrong in our society today. Her funeral was an undignified disgrace.

 

I wouldn't let Ponty catch you saying things like that :shock:

[Thedelldays]

Most people are rightly outraged by the glib nature of this comment. But I'd like to say - he has a point.

 

A rather unworkable, impractical and overtly idealistic point, but a point none-the-less.

 

What SotonJoe misses is that most of these people aint muppets, but they have been mugged.

 

We are regularly told to celebrate the forces (particularly in Hants where all three are very well represented) and thank the individual soldiers for their 'bravery'. When in truth it's not bravery that takes these boys and girls to Afghanistan or the Falklands (etc) its f*cking politics, greed and mantaining the balance of power for the elite (not protecting or providing 'freedom').

 

Sadly so many of our young people, each generation, are conned by the (inglorious) history of the glory of war and believe it is somehow noble to kill or be killed for 'queen and country'. Frankly, that is ********; nothing noble in dying in the desert with plastic in your chest.

 

"To die for his mothers country is in every fathers wish" Hmmm

 

And PS;

 

I do hope he gets better but I've always considered Hartson to be a right twonk. ;-)

 

 

how are they conned..

 

if you walk into the careers office to join the army and do not realise you may well end up doing a stint in afghanistan....then you are an idiot

 

I think you'll find that nearly all, if not ALL when they join the armed forces want to be involved in at least one REAL operation before they leave....I know I did and happy that I have..

[Scudamore]

guarantee most in the ground wont have a clue what or why it is sung

 

Quite...but why let that get in the way of a good argument over nothing

[sotonjoe]

You see, I think the macho moral high ground clasped in response to my comments is exactly what I was criticising in the first place.

 

the fact that somebody's attempts to pay respects to an individual who has been struck down by an illness through no fault or choice of their own, is cast aside as this person is deemed to be less deserving than any particular soldier.

 

I resent being told that I should be more upset, distressed or whatever at somebody dying in their line of duty as opposed to a member of the public being dealt a cruel blow by fate.

 

the reasons being that soliders CHOOSE, yes CHOOSE, to sign up for a profession in which there is more than a slight chance that they will end up dead. I don't think soldiers dying is 'good', I don't even think it is 'unimportant', but I certainly don't think we should be more shocked or hurt by their deaths than victims of illness like Hartson.

 

That is the point I was making and I stand by it wholeheartedly. If I turn on the news and see a soldier dies, I am not surprised. If I see somebody famous has contracted a disease or dropped dead going about their everyday business, then naturally I am very shocked.

[sotonjoe]

how are they conned..

 

if you walk into the careers office to join the army and do not realise you may well end up doing a stint in afghanistan....then you are an idiot

 

I think you'll find that nearly all, if not ALL when they join the armed forces want to be involved in at least one REAL operation before they leave....I know I did and happy that I have..

 

 

And presumably you realised you had a fair chance of ending up in a box if you saw active duty? Surely it wouldn't have come as much of a surprise?

[Webby]

Time to show our class as fans I think. Given how lucky we have been' date=' the goodwill and the new owner who we will no doubt show our appreciation for... just thought it might be a decent thing to give Johnny a quick chorus on Saturday to show that we appreciate thats some things transcend football? He would get to hear about it and it cant do any harm to know fans out there are thinking of him?[/quote']

 

It's an empty, selfish act really isn't it? It's to make us look good isn't it, that's what you're saying.

 

He's seriously ill. Yes it's very sad.

 

Send him a card. Donate to cancer research, but don't use his condition to make us look good as football fans.

[sotonjoe]

It's an empty, selfish act really isn't it? It's to make us look good isn't it, that's what you're saying.

 

He's seriously ill. Yes it's very sad.

 

Send him a card. Donate to cancer research, but don't use his condition to make us look good as football fans.

 

 

I'm not entirely convinced he meant it like that tbh.:confused:

[Webby]

Well what does "given how lucky we've been" got to do with anything. Would he not want to carry out this suggestion if were still in admin, with liquidation looming?

 

You either feel it, or you don't. Our situation is irrelevant.

[sotonjoe]

Well what does "given how lucky we've been" got to do with anything. Would he not want to carry out this suggestion if were still in admin, with liquidation looming?

 

You either feel it, or you don't. Our situation is irrelevant.

 

I guess he meant that, as supporters of a club previously in crisis, but now with a very bright future to look forward to, we could say that we've been dealt a very goo hand by fate or luck or whatever.

 

Hartson on the other hand, was walking around on Saturday awaiting news about some tests he'd had, by yesterday afternoon he's critically ill after being told that he has cancer in his testicles, lungs and brain. You could say that he's been dealt a pretty rubbish hand by fate or luck or whatever.

 

I think the OP was suggesting we make a gesture which shows we acknowledge how fortunate we are and how tragically unfortunate a situation Hartson now finds himself in.

 

FWIW, I'm not saying I agree with what the OP has said, just that this is my interpretation of what he's saying and that I think you misinterpreted his intentions.

[OldNick]

Well what does "given how lucky we've been" got to do with anything. Would he not want to carry out this suggestion if were still in admin, with liquidation looming?

 

You either feel it, or you don't. Our situation is irrelevant.

it was done for the best intentions.I dont go with it but

[INFLUENCED.COM]

If I turn on the news and see a soldier dies, I am not surprised. If I see somebody famous has contracted a disease or dropped dead going about their everyday business, then naturally I am very shocked.

 

Do you think famous people are immune to disease, is that why you become 'very shocked' ?

 

When was the last time 'somebody famous' did something to protect you ?

[OldNick]

I'm not singing in support of those muppets who CHOOSE to go out and get shot at; couldn't give one iota about them. Young lads dying due to mass conscription in either of the World Wars maybe, not this lot nowadays.

 

Somebody being struck down with cancer at the age of 34 through no fault of their own deserves a great deal more compassion in my book.

'They died so others may live' Im sure if they could look down Im sure they'd wonder why they bothered at times.

[CB Fry]

Great suggestion - and some people seem to have forgotten we'll be there for a good 2 hours...surely you can break off the regular chants for 30 seconds to sing his name a couple of times?

 

 

I bet no one starts it on Saturday, and even if someone does I bet it doesn't really get off the ground.

 

As a few people have said he hasn't got any relevence to us, or Ajax, and he isn't actually dead and its just a bit odd.

 

I know this is one of those threads where someone suggests something quite nice and others get utterly outraged when anyone suggests it might not be the most practicable idea, but oh well.

 

 

If anyone else wants to start a "nice idea, then get outraged when it is challenged" thread how about:

 

 

• The recent deaths in Afghanistan
  
• The crane collapsing at the docks the other day and the seriously injured bloke
  
• Michael Jackson
  
• Early Poppy Day as Lowe banned it last year etc etc now is our chance to put that right don't you know what they have done for our country etc etc etc.
  
• Bobby Robson still ill.
  
• It's exactly 1500 days since Alan Ball died so we should all wear caps again.
  
• Justice for Hillsborough
  

 

 

So lots of causes. Please someone start a thread about one of those please, there's always plenty of moral grandstanding to go around.

[Polaroid Saint]

how are they conned..

 

if you walk into the careers office to join the army and do not realise you may well end up doing a stint in afghanistan....then you are an idiot

 

I think you'll find that nearly all, if not ALL when they join the armed forces want to be involved in at least one REAL operation before they leave....I know I did and happy that I have..

 

I mean no disrespect to you DD, or to any other service personnel in or out of service, but the 'conning' and the falsehoods exist in our history and in our traditions and are re-enforced by each shift in society. Individually, the 'conditioning' starts with little plastic guns and John Wayne movies way before any of us get old enough to join up.

 

As SotonJoe said, its the morals of machasmo; as a practising pacifist it's something I object to too. It's philosophical thing, I guess, made difficult to defend by the harsh realities of the world, but there you go.

[sotonjoe]

Do you think famous people are immune to disease, is that why you become 'very shocked' ?

 

When was the last time 'somebody famous' did something to protect you ?

 

 

I used "somebody famous" as it was Hartson we were talking about. I could just have easily "a healthy member of the public". I meant somebody who isn't expected to die anytime soon under normal circumstances.

 

I certainly didn't mean to imply that Hartson getting cancer is more of a shock than any other member of the public. You're misinterpreting the gist of my argument there.

 

Neither was I implying that Hartson has done something to protect me. It's the 'pro army' camp that keep playing the 'protection' card, which isn't game in my book as this isn't a pro / anti war / millitary discussion.

 

I put my view out there because somebody suggested that it would be more suitable to sing a chant in favour of the army than it would be to sing one in in favour of Hartson, or rather that we 'owed' the army a chant more than Hartson. This is something I don't believe for the reasons I've already outlined.

[RoundHill-Saint]

Whilst I have no problem with John Hartson, and my heart goes out to him and his family in respect of his current circumstances. Why is it when someone becomes seriously ill, or dies, they suddenly become 'alright' in everybody's eyes?

 

The Jade Goody thing is a good example, or even Michael Jackson.

 

not in mine Jade Goody was a **** and Michael Jackson i dirty peodo

[Polaroid Saint]

I bet no one starts it on Saturday, and even if someone does I bet it doesn't really get off the ground.

 

As a few people have said he hasn't got any relevence to us, or Ajax, and he isn't actually dead and its just a bit odd.

 

I know this is one of those threads where someone suggests something quite nice and others get utterly outraged when anyone suggests it might not be the most practicable idea, but oh well.

 

 

If anyone else wants to start a "nice idea, then get outraged when it is challenged" thread how about:

 

 

• The recent deaths in Afghanistan
  
• The crane collapsing at the docks the other day and the seriously injured bloke
  
• Michael Jackson
  
• Early Poppy Day as Lowe banned it last year etc etc now is our chance to put that right don't you know what they have done for our country etc etc etc.
  
• Bobby Robson still ill.
  
• It's exactly 1500 days since Alan Ball died so we should all wear caps again.
  
• Justice for Hillsborough
  

 

 

So lots of causes. Please someone start a thread about one of those please, there's always plenty of moral grandstanding to go around.

 

Can we combine the above and release, from a crane over the Northam, some white doves wearing flat-caps with poppies round their necks, to the sound of Jacko's 'Ben' through the main speakers whilst the Royal Gurkha Rifles demonstrate CPR on the pitch...

 

 

 

...have I gone too far?

[sotonjoe]

'They died so others may live' Im sure if they could look down Im sure they'd wonder why they bothered at times.

 

I think the finer points of this discussion have sailed over your head.

 

This isn't a discussion of whether we feel any compassion for those dying in war or not.

 

It was a discussion about who did we 'owe' a chant to more on Saturday. The OP made a suggestion that we sing a song for Hartson and was criticized by someone who said that we owed one to 'the army' a lot more. I said I don't think we owe chants to people doing their jobs, which they knowingly signed up for, especially when we raise huge sums of money for them and acknowledge what they do with all manner of parades etc. I hardly think they army are failing to get enough thanks for whatever they do. We don't need to be singing thank you songs for them at football.

[OldNick]

as a practising pacifist it's something I object to too. .

Nothing wrong with that in principle but completely naive in the real world. Im sure glad our grandfathers all didnt feel the same way.Most of us wouldnt be here now if so

[sotonjoe]

Can we combine the above and release, from a crane over the Northam, some white doves wearing flat-caps with poppies round their necks, to the sound of Jacko's 'Ben' through the main speakers whilst the Royal Gurkha Rifles demonstrate CPR on the pitch...

 

 

 

...have I gone too far?

 

Not if you can come up with a chant for it to the tune of Oh When the Saints ...

[OldNick]

I think the finer points of this discussion have sailed over your head.

 

This isn't a discussion of whether we feel any compassion for those dying in war or not.

 

It was a discussion about who did we 'owe' a chant to more on Saturday. The OP made a suggestion that we sing a song for Hartson and was criticized by someone who said that we owed one to 'the army' a lot more. I said I don't think we owe chants to people doing their jobs, which they knowingly signed up for, especially when we raise huge sums of money for them and acknowledge what they do with all manner of parades etc. I hardly think they army are failing to get enough thanks for whatever they do. We don't need to be singing thank you songs for them at football.

I have never been a serviceman but I bloody well am proud of them and when they walked around SMS last season I stood and showed the respect they deserve.

I do agree neither should be sung about saturday but i do know who would get the best responce if it happened.

[sotonjoe]

Nothing wrong with that in principle but completely naive in the real world. Im sure glad our grandfathers all didnt feel the same way.Most of us wouldnt be here now if so

 

 

And you should note that I made a distinction between those who lose their lives as a result of conscription and those who sign up in this day and age as a career choice.

 

It's bitterly cruel that essentially untrained lads were sent off to be used as a human shield in the Somme. I've been there myself to pay my respects and it's a very humbling place to be. However, the situation is very different in the present day.

[sotonjoe]

I have never been a serviceman but I bloody well am proud of them and when they walked around SMS last season I stood and showed the respect they deserve.

I do agree neither should be sung about saturday but i do know who would get the best responce if it happened.

 

 

And I was there myself and politely clapped too. I'm not a nutcase and I'm not about to boo them or anything, I just don't want to be told that I owe some huge moral debt to them or must feel shocked / awed / or very very sad if one of them loses their lives. And I hate they way that they are brought out as a sort of trump card as to 'who is best' in modern society.

[Micky]

I mean no disrespect to you DD, or to any other service personnel in or out of service, but the 'conning' and the falsehoods exist in our history and in our traditions and are re-enforced by each shift in society. Individually, the 'conditioning' starts with little plastic guns and John Wayne movies way before any of us get old enough to join up.

 

As SotonJoe said, its the morals of machasmo; as a practising pacifist it's something I object to too. It's philosophical thing, I guess, made difficult to defend by the harsh realities of the world, but there you go.

 

Sorry, that is actually quite funny, but also obviously very ignorant of the facts. Take a look at any of the Forces pages and examine the job specifications that need to be fulfilled. I can assure you that not many of them are going to be filled by people who have been conditioned by JW and plastic guns. To even attempt a small operation outside of the UK takes detailed planning and 100's of specialists. In Afghanistan how many IS engineers, RADAR Specs, Trauma Surgeons, Chinook Pilots, Supply Specialists & Explosive Technicians do you think were woed on by John Wayne - not too many.

 

And before you jump on the Infantry lads - most of them are using complex weapon systems that you wouldn't know the business end of if you were in their boots.

 

Give the lads some credit FFS - they are doing it so that your world is a safer place.

[sotonjoe]

Sorry, that is actually quite funny, but also obviously very ignorant of the facts. Take a look at any of the Forces pages and examine the job specifications that need to be fulfilled. I can assure you that not many of them are going to be filled by people who have been conditioned by JW and plastic guns. To even attempt a small operation outside of the UK takes detailed planning and 100's of specialists. In Afghanistan how many IS engineers, RADAR Specs, Trauma Surgeons, Chinook Pilots, Supply Specialists & Explosive Technicians do you think were woed on by John Wayne - not too many.

 

And before you jump on the Infantry lads - most of them are using complex weapon systems that you wouldn't know the business end of if you were in their boots.

 

Give the lads some credit FFS - they are doing it so that your world is a safer place.

 

 

I don't think he was saying that the job spec for a squaddie says 'a love of plastic guns'!?!?!?!

 

He's saying that boys are programmed from a young age to think that wielding guns and fighting baddies is heroic. He's suggesting that this conditioning goes some way to explaining why a large proportion think that solidiers are heroic and that this conditioning could prevent some from stepping back and considering these sorts of discussions as objectively and dispassionately as they perhaps should do.

[Thedelldays]

And I was there myself and politely clapped too. I'm not a nutcase and I'm not about to boo them or anything, I just don't want to be told that I owe some huge moral debt to them or must feel shocked / awed / or very very sad if one of them loses their lives. And I hate they way that they are brought out as a sort of trump card as to 'who is best' in modern society.

 

 

i think the "trump card" as you put it is used as some CHOSE to do something useful and not leach off benefits or be a "hoodie" like so so many in this country want to do...

 

we live is a benefit riddled society where waynetta is better off having kids and doing nothing with their lives and get paid to do it..

 

next time there is a bout of foot and mouth or the firemen go on strike who looks after the show....yes, the "trump cards"..

[sotonjoe]

i think the "trump card" as you put it is used as some CHOSE to do something useful and not leach off benefits or be a "hoodie" like so so many in this country want to do...

 

we live is a benefit riddled society where waynetta is better off having kids and doing nothing with their lives and get paid to do it..

 

next time there is a bout of foot and mouth or the firemen go on strike who looks after the show....yes, the "trump cards"..

 

 

None of that makes squaddies the 'sooper dooper heroes beyond all reproach' that some make them out to be and you've squirrelled the argument in a very off tangent direction to be fair. It was certainly better than your early attempt which just consisted of abuse though.

[Thedelldays]

None of that makes squaddies the 'sooper dooper heroes beyond all reproach' that some make them out to be and you've squirrelled the argument in a very off tangent direction to be fair. It was certainly better than your early attempt which just consisted of abuse though.

i dont think anyones makes them "super dupa"....do they..?

 

lets say firemen were getting consistantly killed at work...i mean, at the same rate that the squaddies are...would they get the same attention

umm..yeah

[Jonnyboy]

'They died so others may live' Im sure if they could look down Im sure they'd wonder why they bothered at times.

 

July 7/7 only happened because we went to Iraq

[Thedelldays]

July 7/7 only happened because we went to Iraq

9/11..?

[Micky]

I don't think he was saying that the job spec for a squaddie says 'a love of plastic guns'!?!?!?!

 

He's saying that boys are programmed from a young age to think that wielding guns and fighting baddies is heroic. He's suggesting that this conditioning goes some way to explaining why a large proportion think that solidiers are heroic and that this conditioning could prevent some from stepping back and considering these sorts of discussions as objectively and dispassionately as they perhaps should do.

 

If that theory were true then every boy with a normal upbringing would want to be a squaddie then. Funnily enough, my son is currently running around the house wioth a plastic gun pretending to be Rambo - I'll keep my eye on him.

 

I will except your dispassionate view of our Armed Forces - each to thier own, but your first post was offensive in the extreme and I do not believe that you have any right to label the lads as 'muppets'. If they are muppets then you are something I have just removed from my shoe sole and flicked back into the gutter.

[um pahars]

9/11..?

 

First Iraq war and Western troops (mainly American) based in Arabic states (mainly Saudi)???

 

PS I'm with C B Fry with regards the OP.

[Jonnyboy]

9/11..?

 

Saudi Arabians with stanley knives, nothing to do with Saddam