Nineteen Canteen Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Well that is the headline statement if you would like to book Lawrie as your after dinner speaker for the evening at a reasonable £3k - £5k. Not bad work if you can get it and IMO it does make you wonder why he can't pay for his seat at SMS this season. http://www.gordonpoole.com/?ArtistID=1006 It's amazing the Guinness Book of Soccer facts rank's him among the top 20 most successful football managers in post war English football. Now I am no historian but since my first football memories from the early 1970's I think I can come up with a list of 20 more successful managers and if you read is football mangement CV it's not the most inspiring unless you are a Saints fan. Now I appreciate I will take a good kicking over this but putting their Saints sentiments to one side does anybody agree that Lawrie is one of the most successful UK manager's and that he is ranked in the top 20 Guinness book of Soccer facts as one of the most successful managers in post war English football. I accept that may have been the case if the edition of the book being quoted is 1985 but in 2009? Seems inaccurate IMO. Made me smile that he still had to get a dig in at our past chairman for leaving his position as Director of Football and yet didn't give any reason for leaving Northern Ireland or why he decided to have a break from football after a short period in charge of Sunderland. Oh, and not to mention the small matter of a nice windfall from share ownership. Perhaps, if McMenemy had stayed manager at Saints he may have merited his claim to fame and gone on to win more trophies and even improve on that 2nd place but that was very much the top of his manageral slide and it's difficult to agree with the Guinness book of facts. Does anyone agree or do they believe that based on achievements and trophies Lawrie deserves this accolade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuengirola Saint Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Well that is the headline statement if you would like to book Lawrie as your after dinner speaker for the evening at a reasonable £3k - £5k. Not bad work if you can get it and IMO it does make you wonder why he can't pay for his seat at SMS this season. http://www.gordonpoole.com/?ArtistID=1006 It's amazing the Guinness Book of Soccer facts rank's him among the top 20 most successful football managers in post war English football. Now I am no historian but since my first football memories from the early 1970's I think I can come up with a list of 20 more successful managers and if you read is football mangement CV it's not the most inspiring unless you are a Saints fan. Now I appreciate I will take a good kicking over this but putting their Saints sentiments to one side does anybody agree that Lawrie is one of the most successful UK manager's and that he is ranked in the top 20 Guinness book of Soccer facts as one of the most successful managers in post war English football. I accept that may have been the case if the edition of the book being quoted is 1985 but in 2009? Seems inaccurate IMO. Made me smile that he still had to get a dig in at our past chairman for leaving his position as Director of Football and yet didn't give any reason for leaving Northern Ireland or why he decided to have a break from football after a short period in charge of Sunderland. Oh, and not to mention the small matter of a nice windfall from share ownership. Perhaps, if McMenemy had stayed manager at Saints he may have merited his claim to fame and gone on to win more trophies and even improve on that 2nd place but that was very much the top of his manageral slide and it's difficult to agree with the Guinness book of facts. Does anyone agree or do they believe that based on achievements and trophies Lawrie deserves this accolade? You are a nutter! Get over it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil the Saint Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 'Does anyone agree or do they believe that based on achievements and trophies Lawrie deserves this accolade?' Thoroughly deserved accolade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Yet another thinkly veiled wind-up intended to stir up trouble by being controversial about a well-liked former Saint. "Hmmmm, Friday today, I think I'll do a wind-up on that Saints Forum about Lawrie, haven't used him as bait for a few days". Sad, sad, sad. So transparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 16 October, 2009 Author Share Posted 16 October, 2009 You are a nutter! Get over it Top 20 of the most successful managers in post war English Football? I don't agree with that as a football fan let alone a Saints fan and if that makes me a nutter then pass the Snickers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 16 October, 2009 Author Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Yet another thinkly veiled wind-up intended to stir up trouble by being controversial about a well-liked former Saint. "Hmmmm, Friday today, I think I'll do a wind-up on that Saints Forum about Lawrie, haven't used him as bait for a few days". Sad, sad, sad. So transparent. And your answer to the question whilst recognising the achievements in football by other managers since 1945? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 (edited) Well that is the headline statement if you would like to book Lawrie as your after dinner speaker for the evening at a reasonable £3k - £5k. Not bad work if you can get it and IMO it does make you wonder why he can't pay for his seat at SMS this season. http://www.gordonpoole.com/?ArtistID=1006 It's amazing the Guinness Book of Soccer facts rank's him among the top 20 most successful football managers in post war English football. Now I am no historian but since my first football memories from the early 1970's I think I can come up with a list of 20 more successful managers and if you read is football mangement CV it's not the most inspiring unless you are a Saints fan. Now I appreciate I will take a good kicking over this but putting their Saints sentiments to one side does anybody agree that Lawrie is one of the most successful UK manager's and that he is ranked in the top 20 Guinness book of Soccer facts as one of the most successful managers in post war English football. I accept that may have been the case if the edition of the book being quoted is 1985 but in 2009? Seems inaccurate IMO. Made me smile that he still had to get a dig in at our past chairman for leaving his position as Director of Football and yet didn't give any reason for leaving Northern Ireland or why he decided to have a break from football after a short period in charge of Sunderland. Oh, and not to mention the small matter of a nice windfall from share ownership. Perhaps, if McMenemy had stayed manager at Saints he may have merited his claim to fame and gone on to win more trophies and even improve on that 2nd place but that was very much the top of his manageral slide and it's difficult to agree with the Guinness book of facts. Does anyone agree or do they believe that based on achievements and trophies Lawrie deserves this accolade? OK. I'll rise to the bait so that you can have your fix of trying to belittle the reputation of one of the club's heroes. Now let's see your list of 20 more successful managers since you started watching football in the early 70s. And give reasons to back up your choice too. And naturally send the list to the Guinness people also and tell them what idiots they are. Edited 16 October, 2009 by Wes Tender two n's in Guinness ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Don't feed the mentally ill troll. I'll let you decide who the numeric poster is I'm alluding to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Don't feed the mentally ill troll. I'll let you decide who the numeric poster is I'm alluding to. I have no intention of engaging with someone who's ramblings on this site are predominantly motivated by attacking Saints legends in an obvious and rather sorrowful attempt to wind-up others. I actually find it painfully sad that someone has to resort to this just to get some attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 I have no intention of engaging with someone who's ramblings on this site are predominantly motivated by attacking Saints legends in an obvious and rather sorrowful attempt to wind-up others. I actually find it painfully sad that someone has to resort to this just to get some attention. Well, compiling his list of 20 alternatives, with reasons, should keep him quiet for an hour or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecuk268 Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Depends how you judge a manager. Is a manager who does well with a mediocre team better than one that wins things with a team full of super-stars. Both have their strengths. I'm sure that managing a team full of millionaire prima-donnas isn't necessarily easier than a more modest outfit. Ferguson and Wenger seem best with the former and Lawrie certainly knew how to get the best out of a mixture of youngsters and older players who many thought were past it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Richard of Woolston Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 There is no doubt that between 1976 & his departure for Sunderland, McMenemy was one of the top managers in British Football. Doing what he did at Southampton was worth a few trophies at Liverpool, Moan U etc etc. So, depending on your counting method, to be in the top 3 managers for a period of 8 years or so 'could' qualify him as a top 20 post war manager. We played some fast, exciting football during his time. My issues with McMenemy started some time after that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Saint Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Thought it was a reasonable opening post which poses questions but at the same time the poster has given his opinion. Firstly the fee is about average for someone in the sports industry with the wide experience he has. He expects a "free lunch" as well As to being in the top 20 successful managers since the war I think that must be a generalisation unless they names the other 19. He had good success with Saints, no one could argue that, but his forays into other areas of football management at any level were less succesful. It you put your Sainst tinted glasses on he was great for us. In the wider football world I would question the accuracy of the claim Anyway, I prefer this content of post than "what shall we sing to Lallana etc.etc.etc. Still each to his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 16 October, 2009 Author Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Well, compiling his list of 20 alternatives, with reasons, should keep him quiet for an hour or so. Don't have the time for reasons but they should be obvious to most football fans and this is just off the top of my head. You'll like the first one.... Redknapp Robson Bobby Nivholson Greenwood Ferguson Wenger Mourinho Graham Atkinson Clough Shankley Paisley Moyes Kendall Revie Armfield Dalglish Benetiz Hodgson Benetiz Busby Don't ask me to count their trophies but all are some of the most durable, successful and sought after managers of their era and I would have appointed any of them over McMenemy at the height of their success be it now or then. BTW Wes despite your misguided belief that I keep myself busy with your banal responses, I usually laugh them off at your refusal to accept I may have a point. There is your list, you work out the reasons and make sure you select that red font you are so fond off. It's an opinion Wes not a piece of homework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowds Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Before I comment can I ask what he's actually won other than the fa cup? As I'm not actually that sure....? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Block 5 Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Landrew Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Top 20 of the most successful managers in post war English Football? I don't agree with that as a football fan let alone a Saints fan and if that makes me a nutter then pass the Snickers. Well luckily, I suppose, it's not you that decides who are the most successful managers, but the Guinness Book Of Soccer Facts. So I guess, if they say he's in the Top 20, then it may well be true. Whereas, if you alone stated it, I might question the validity of your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windmill Arm 2 Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Lawrie McMenemy : Fine example of a top flight manager Nineteen Canteen : Fine example of an attention seeking C*** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Your attitude towards our most successful manager is bemusing at best. Just accept that he put our club on the map and for nearly a decade delivered far more than a provincial club like ours might have expected. As well as our only silverware of note. What else is he supposed to do? Walk on water... oops wrong thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Before I comment can I ask what he's actually won other than the fa cup? As I'm not actually that sure....? For me, great managers aren't counted solely on what they have won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scummer Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Before I comment can I ask what he's actually won other than the fa cup? As I'm not actually that sure....? 2 Champions League trophies and the World Cup. No not really, just the FA cup. And 2nd place in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 can't think who would be, but would be very surprised if was in top 30 or whatever it was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Block 5 Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 For me, great managers aren't counted solely on what they have won. Hypo.....WTF is your avatar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyLove Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Redknapp Robson Bobby Nivholson Greenwood Ferguson Wenger Mourinho Graham Atkinson Clough Shankley Paisley Moyes Kendall Revie Armfield Dalglish Benetiz Hodgson Benetiz Busby You mentioned Benetiz Twice. Oh and some first names as well. Plus with regards to achivments please list the trohpies and achivments. Come back to us when you can respond properly. Other wise get back under your bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintstr1 Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 As someone who supported saints throughout the Bates/McMenemy era I see nothing strange in Guinness regarding Lawrie as one of the top 20 managers. In his heyday Lawrie achieved a lot with what was at the time a small unfashionable club. His teams played attractive football that was a joy to watch.Winning the FA cup and finishing runners up in the old First division were extremely big achievments for a club like the Saints. As for Lawrie himself always very personable and a joy to listen to, knew his football inside out which was why he was so respected by the likes of Ball, Osgood , Keegan , Channon ,Shilton and many many more. If Lawrie is topping up his pension with after dinner speaking then very good luck to him,I have had the pleasure of meeting Lawrie on a couple of occassions and have found him to be a great ambassador for football in general and Southampton Football Club in particular. If some of the people in recent years who were supposedly the custodians of SFC had half of Lawries football knowledge and personality we would still be a premiership club . So NC do yourself a favour and attend one of the functions that Lawrie is speaking at, I guarantee you will not only be entertained but also you might learn something about football. Rant over from another old coger just like Lawrie, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowds Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 2 Champions League trophies and the World Cup. No not really, just the FA cup. And 2nd place in the league. Yeh that's what I thought hardly qualifies him to be top 20. Good manager but not one o the greats IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scummer Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Yeh that's what I thought hardly qualifies him to be top 20. Good manager but not one o the greats IMO As hypo said, you can't judge a manager simply on trophies won. Although a quick look on wikipedia shows that Lawrie actually won more than Jimmy Armfield, who made Canteens list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Don't have the time for reasons but they should be obvious to most football fans and this is just off the top of my head. You'll like the first one.... Redknapp Robson Bobby Nivholson Greenwood Ferguson Wenger Mourinho Graham Atkinson Clough Shankley Paisley Moyes Kendall Revie Armfield Dalglish Benetiz Hodgson Benetiz Busby Don't ask me to count their trophies but all are some of the most durable, successful and sought after managers of their era and I would have appointed any of them over McMenemy at the height of their success be it now or then. BTW Wes despite your misguided belief that I keep myself busy with your banal responses, I usually laugh them off at your refusal to accept I may have a point. There is your list, you work out the reasons and make sure you select that red font you are so fond off. It's an opinion Wes not a piece of homework. After Paisley, you begin to get a bit thin and don't think that I didn't notice that you have included Benitez twice. I didn't say that you busied yourself with my responses, I stated that you busied yourself with trying to bad-mouth Southampton heroes, in particular Le Tiss and McMenemy. Sadly, you have not given reasons as to why you consider those managers to be better than McMenemy, so your response lacks the substance that you accuse others of avoiding. Of course, what becomes crystal clear from viewing the list is that most of those managers managed the top three or four teams of their day. Take out any that managed ManUre, The Arse, Chelski, Liverpool and your list looks a lot thinner. I'm not saying that those people who managed those clubs were poor managers, but they weren't exactly strapped by a tight budget were they? Also, it was naturally far more difficult to attract players to a club like this than any of those four. But I doubt that you'll be able to think about that objectively, as it would mean giving McMenemy some credit and you couldn't do that, could you? The red font especially for you, as I know how much you like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzmeister Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Cant believe i'm saying this but as a topic for debate this isnt actually bad. I would be quite interested to hear if people did think that LM deserves his place in top 20. I am not in anyway undermining his achievments for Saints, as someone said he did an amzing job for us and got us on the map. But in respect to trophies the achievement list is quite low. Are trophies the best indicator (obviously its the easiest to measure) or are measures like promotions, coup signing etc more important? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenevaSaint Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 It's amazing the Guinness Book of Soccer facts rank's him among the top 20 most successful football managers in post war English football. Now I am no historian but since my first football memories from the early 1970's I think I can come up with a list of 20 more successful managers and if you read is football mangement CV it's not the most inspiring unless you are a Saints fan. Unless you know the criteria they based their decision on you cannot supply an alternative list. Anyway, it's all about opinions, theirs differs to yours. I think he did a great job bearing in mind our pedigree until the 76 cup final win, league cup final, our forays into Europe, several near misses in the FA Cup semis, 2nd in the league. Look at the coup of bringing the European football player of the year to unfashionable Southampton. As someone has also pointed out, you can win feck all but play good football on a limited budget, in my eyes that would make you a better manager than someone given 200m to buy the title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenevaSaint Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Are trophies the best indicator (obviously its the easiest to measure) or are measures like promotions, coup signing etc more important? Trophies are not the best indicator of a good manager. Dario Grady won nothing at Crewe, look at the against the odds battle every season selling their best players. Look at the production line they turned out. It's not as simple as so and so won a cup or league. FWIW I don't think Benitez is a great manager but he's won the Champions League. Look at some of the dross he's signed in his time and Liverpool choke every season when it comes to the crunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathan Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 LIES, DAMN LIES, AND STATISTICS For the sake of rising to your obvious bait, and not having complete stats to hand. The following below should be removed from your list: (IMHO of course, although I am playing devil's advocate a bit with a few of them) Redknapp - 1 FA cup, lower league wins with Bournemouth and Skates Greenwood - 3 trophies in 13 years with arguably the best English players ever. Mourinho - bought two titles with massive spend and inherited most of squad from Ranieri!!! Atkinson - sorry, are you serious???? control of biggest club and nearly got them relegated. Moyes - won one less trophy than Lawrie and no where as good in the league! Armfield - won absolutely nothing! Dalglish - bought a premier league title with Blackburn. Failed miserably at newcastle Hodgson - well respected but won nothing in England. As I say, you can twist stats anyway you want to suit an argument, but to conclude, Lawrie is in the top 20 I would say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenevaSaint Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 . Take out any that managed ManUre, The Arse, Chelski, Liverpool and your list looks a lot thinner. I'm not saying that those people who managed those clubs were poor managers, but they weren't exactly strapped by a tight budget were they? You'd have to leave Ferguson in for his exploits with Aberdeen alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 After Paisley, you begin to get a bit thin and don't think that I didn't notice that you have included Benitez twice. I didn't say that you busied yourself with my responses, I stated that you busied yourself with trying to bad-mouth Southampton heroes, in particular Le Tiss and McMenemy. Sadly, you have not given reasons as to why you consider those managers to be better than McMenemy, so your response lacks the substance that you accuse others of avoiding. Of course, what becomes crystal clear from viewing the list is that most of those managers managed the top three or four teams of their day. Take out any that managed ManUre, The Arse, Chelski, Liverpool and your list looks a lot thinner. I'm not saying that those people who managed those clubs were poor managers, but they weren't exactly strapped by a tight budget were they? Also, it was naturally far more difficult to attract players to a club like this than any of those four. But I doubt that you'll be able to think about that objectively, as it would mean giving McMenemy some credit and you couldn't do that, could you? The red font especially for you, as I know how much you like it. not the stongest arguement! By that count ignore player who only looked good as had good players around them! Also best managers, like best players, are more likely to end up at Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickG Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Don't have the time for reasons but they should be obvious to most football fans and this is just off the top of my head. You'll like the first one.... Redknapp Robson Bobby Nivholson Greenwood Ferguson Wenger Mourinho Graham Atkinson Clough Shankley Paisley Moyes Kendall Revie Armfield Dalglish Benetiz Hodgson Benetiz Busby Don't ask me to count their trophies but all are some of the most durable, successful and sought after managers of their era and I would have appointed any of them over McMenemy at the height of their success be it now or then. BTW Wes despite your misguided belief that I keep myself busy with your banal responses, I usually laugh them off at your refusal to accept I may have a point. There is your list, you work out the reasons and make sure you select that red font you are so fond off. It's an opinion Wes not a piece of homework. ones in bold would be clearly ahead of him, would have to spend bit of time with pen and paper to see where I would place him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 How anyone can slag off the guy who brought the biggest trophy at that time to this club is beyond me. He took a 2nd division club and made them contenders for the league one crown only just missing out. What we would not give to replicate that. What any club would not give to replicate that. Anyone who doesn't respect that success simply cannot be a Saints fan because it is the only success we have had. It is like Man Utd fans in 10-15 years time trying to dis-credit Fergie. For it's day it was a great achivement and will probably never happen again. A team from the CCC will not win the FA Cup, sign the world player of the year and then go on to finish 2nd in the Premiership the following year. Not going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Trophies are not the best indicator of a good manager. Dario Grady won nothing at Crewe, look at the against the odds battle every season selling their best players. Look at the production line they turned out. It's not as simple as so and so won a cup or league. FWIW I don't think Benitez is a great manager but he's won the Champions League. Look at some of the dross he's signed in his time and Liverpool choke every season when it comes to the crunch. I must confess that Dario Gradi's name also crossed my mind. I wonder whether many on that list would have fared any better than him with the resources he had at his disposal. And Benitez certainly doesn't deserve to be included twice on that list, does he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustMike Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Well that is the headline statement if you would like to book Lawrie as your after dinner speaker for the evening at a reasonable £3k - £5k. Not bad work if you can get it and IMO it does make you wonder why he can't pay for his seat at SMS this season. http://www.gordonpoole.com/?ArtistID=1006 It's amazing the Guinness Book of Soccer facts rank's him among the top 20 most successful football managers in post war English football. Now I am no historian but since my first football memories from the early 1970's I think I can come up with a list of 20 more successful managers and if you read is football mangement CV it's not the most inspiring unless you are a Saints fan. Now I appreciate I will take a good kicking over this but putting their Saints sentiments to one side does anybody agree that Lawrie is one of the most successful UK manager's and that he is ranked in the top 20 Guinness book of Soccer facts as one of the most successful managers in post war English football. I accept that may have been the case if the edition of the book being quoted is 1985 but in 2009? Seems inaccurate IMO. Made me smile that he still had to get a dig in at our past chairman for leaving his position as Director of Football and yet didn't give any reason for leaving Northern Ireland or why he decided to have a break from football after a short period in charge of Sunderland. Oh, and not to mention the small matter of a nice windfall from share ownership. Perhaps, if McMenemy had stayed manager at Saints he may have merited his claim to fame and gone on to win more trophies and even improve on that 2nd place but that was very much the top of his manageral slide and it's difficult to agree with the Guinness book of facts. Does anyone agree or do they believe that based on achievements and trophies Lawrie deserves this accolade? im not going to slate you on this, more, offer my 10p worth. I think the only reason he is in there is because of the success he had with us considering where we were i that time, not to mention the squad he built up, the KK factor. He did help us punch above our weight, so maybe this is the reasoning for the top 20 placing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redondo Saint Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Unfortunately subjects put up for debate by the OP are generally poisoned by his hatred of certain SFC past employees. Why would anyone want to question the value of LM's fee? It is based on market forces and if it was not commercial value his agency would not get work. Perhaps we should start a debate about NC's value to his employer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 hasn't Dave Bassett won about a trillion promotions with crappy teams. Would that make him the most succesful manager of all time, based on triumphs to club size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatlesaint Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 (edited) Well well.....lets have a little look at everyones fave poster and his latest attempt to bad mouth anyone who has ever done anything decent for Southampton FC. Maybe, just maybe, when taking into account their Top 20 the Guiness Book people considered a number of things.....such as - Number of games managed at a particular club or in a particular division and the % of wins, or the average League position of said club during managers tenure there. Given that Lawrie was manager of Southampton longer than Benitez, Mourinhio and Dalglish (to name but three) were at their clubs that would probably explain that one. I seem to recall a period where we were about the 7th most successful club in England, and that WAS under Lawrie's leadership so that would be one explanation as to his appearence on the list. Perhaps, although less likely, they looked at the state of the club, the size, the previous history etc and judged it partly by that. No manager had ever won the FA Cup for Saints before, no manager had ever led us to a League Cup Final before, no manager had qualified the club for Europe as many times before, and nobody had ever got the club anywhere near Runners-up in League Division 1 as it was then called. So work out the number of years Lawrie was at Southampton - i will help you - it was 11 years as manager, and calculate how many of those seasons ended in a promotion, a cup final appearence, a qualification for Europe, a top 3 placing...and you will probably find he had more succesful seasons than not. To include Redknapp, Moyes, Hodgson, Armfield and even to an extent Atkinson above him is an absolute insult....but i guess thats your whole point isnt it ? Oh and even though I have blocked you feel free to reply as I'm sure some kind soul will post your response in the quotes box cos thats how i still manage to read most of your rubbish/baiting/poison....cos like a bad penny, you always turn up again and again and again..... Edited 16 October, 2009 by beatlesaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Landrew Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Tbh, I don't know why any Saints supporter would want to spend time devaluing the achievements of a Saints manager whose career is long since over, with the zeal of a supporter from another club with a vengence issue. What's the point..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 (edited) LIES, DAMN LIES, AND STATISTICS For the sake of rising to your obvious bait, and not having complete stats to hand. The following below should be removed from your list: (IMHO of course, although I am playing devil's advocate a bit with a few of them) Redknapp - 1 FA cup, lower league wins with Bournemouth and Skates Greenwood - 3 trophies in 13 years with arguably the best English players ever. Mourinho - bought two titles with massive spend and inherited most of squad from Ranieri!!! Atkinson - sorry, are you serious???? control of biggest club and nearly got them relegated. Moyes - won one less trophy than Lawrie and no where as good in the league! Armfield - won absolutely nothing! Dalglish - bought a premier league title with Blackburn. Failed miserably at newcastle Hodgson - well respected but won nothing in England. As I say, you can twist stats anyway you want to suit an argument, but to conclude, Lawrie is in the top 20 I would say. Kenny Dalglish won the league with two different clubs. That is better than anything Lawrie acheived. Ron Atkinson acheived significant success at West Brom, Villa, Sheff Weds and Man United. That is better than anything Lawrie acheived who had success at one club only and failed everywhere else. Ron Greenwood errr built the team with "the greatest English players ever" and got appointed Englan manager, not England assistant manager. That is better than anything Lawrie acheived. Mourinho not as good as Lawrie McMenemy. What "massive spend" did he have when Porto won the Champion's League then? Jimmy Armfield got to the final of the European Cup with Leeds.That is better than anything Lawrie acheived. Moyes is probably as close to a McMenemy level of achievement - ie solid league placings - but the style is different of course. Lawrie did well for us but no way in the top twenty of all time in England. Quick mention for two Villa managers - Ron Saunders who won the European Cup and Graham Taylor who achieved Lawrie-like success with Saints-like Watford but built on it at a big club with Villa and then appointed England manager, with Lawrie as assistant of course. And then made a comeback with Watford again. The big difference is the greatest managers have success at one club, but repeat it elsewhere. Lawrie was brilliant for us is a one club wonder in the great scheme of things. Edited 16 October, 2009 by CB Fry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wes Tender Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 not the stongest arguement! By that count ignore player who only looked good as had good players around them! Also best managers, like best players, are more likely to end up at Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal etc Thanks, Nick, as you strengthen my argument, because as you rightly say, as well as attracting the best players, those clubs attract the best managers who are more likely to succeed because of the money available to them. On that list, there are a few exceptional managers who stand out because they made those teams what they became. Matt Busby does not qualify in Nineteen's remit, as he had already finished as manager of Man Utd before 1970, except for a half season stint in 70/71 season, but he made Man Utd what they became more than any other single individual manager. The same can be said of Bill Shankly at Liverpool. Granted that Paisley and Dalglish also did well for them, but the foundations had been laid by Shankly. Brian Clough is another for his feats at Nottingham Forest and Derby, when neither club was up at the top when he arrived. The other stand out manager in the past 30/40 years for the same reason, is Bobby Robson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 To include Redknapp, Moyes, Hodgson, Armfield and even to an extent Atkinson above him is an absolute insult....but i guess thats your whole point isnt it ? No it isn't. Lawrie frankly is good but not that good. Nineteen Canteen is a wind up merchant and you shouldn't raise to the bait but to say comparisons to fine, fine football men like Hodsgon and Jimmy Armfield as an "insult" to Lawrie is an "insult" to those men whose acheivements stand up against Lawrie any day of the week, if not better. Ron Atkinson's record at four clubs (not just one) blows Lawrie clean out of the water. Too many rose-tinted specs, I fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Has SOGGY not been along yet ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sticksaint Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Let`s play a game !Everyone has to name a saints legend who Nineteen Canteen can slag off , insult etc . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Let`s play a game !Everyone has to name a saints legend who Nineteen Canteen can slag off , insult etc . I'd like to hear his views on Steve Baker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastleighSoulBoy Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 OK. I'll rise to the bait so that you can have your fix of trying to belittle the reputation of one of the club's heroes. Now let's see your list of 20 more successful managers since you started watching football in the early 70s. And give reasons to back up your choice too. And naturally send the list to the Guinness people also and tell them what idiots they are. Not 20, but I'll give you ten? Joe Mercer (Man City) Don Revie (Leeds Utd) Bill Shankly (Liverpool) Harry Catterick (Everton) Brian Clough (Derby/Notts Forrest) Bill Nicholson (Spurs) Bertie Mee (Arsenal) Tommy Docherty (Chelsea) Ron Greenwood (West Ham) Sir Bobby Robson (Ipswich) Ted Bates The thing is this is all subjective and whilst Laurie is undoubtedly a hero to many Saints fans there are other managers who he was not better than. If you go back into the late sixties you had Matt Busby even! I loved what Laurie did for Saints but I wasn't happy with him seemingly leaving us in the lurch either. However, do we know the full reasons he left us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 16 October, 2009 Share Posted 16 October, 2009 Well that is the headline statement if you would like to book Lawrie as your after dinner speaker for the evening at a reasonable £3k - £5k. Not bad work if you can get it and IMO it does make you wonder why he can't pay for his seat at SMS this season. http://www.gordonpoole.com/?ArtistID=1006 It's amazing the Guinness Book of Soccer facts rank's him among the top 20 most successful football managers in post war English football. Now I am no historian but since my first football memories from the early 1970's I think I can come up with a list of 20 more successful managers and if you read is football mangement CV it's not the most inspiring unless you are a Saints fan. Now I appreciate I will take a good kicking over this but putting their Saints sentiments to one side does anybody agree that Lawrie is one of the most successful UK manager's and that he is ranked in the top 20 Guinness book of Soccer facts as one of the most successful managers in post war English football. I accept that may have been the case if the edition of the book being quoted is 1985 but in 2009? Seems inaccurate IMO. Made me smile that he still had to get a dig in at our past chairman for leaving his position as Director of Football and yet didn't give any reason for leaving Northern Ireland or why he decided to have a break from football after a short period in charge of Sunderland. Oh, and not to mention the small matter of a nice windfall from share ownership. Perhaps, if McMenemy had stayed manager at Saints he may have merited his claim to fame and gone on to win more trophies and even improve on that 2nd place but that was very much the top of his manageral slide and it's difficult to agree with the Guinness book of facts. Does anyone agree or do they believe that based on achievements and trophies Lawrie deserves this accolade? what a pathtic post :smt014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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