IYO - What makes a Saints "Legend"?

[Arizona]

Was reading MLT's autobiography the other day (cheers Baj) and there were references to several players, including a certain James Beattie. Whilst not in the same class as Le Tiss, I do sometimes wonder why he isn't refered to as a "legend". I would certainly class him in the lower reaches of legendary status. Scored a lot of goals, including several winners against Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool, Pompey and Spurs. Some fantastic efforts, such as those scored at SJP and at home to WBA in the cup final season. Also put in a pretty decent work shift and has never bad mouthed the club since leaving.

 

For me there several attributes which could earn a player legendary status.

 

Loyalty - Either by long service or by turning down better offers.

 

E.g. MLT, Claus, Paine, Benali even Kelvin.

 

Number of goals - Either throughout their career or in a particular season.

 

E.g. Channon, MLT, Moran, Paine, Big Ron, Beattie

 

Skills and quality of goals - Just the pure skill

 

E.g. MLT, Pahars, Ekelund, Keegan

 

Scores in big matches - Relegation deciders, cup finals or against the big teams.

 

E.g. Stokes, Pahars, Beattie, even Stern John

 

Attitude or Work Rate - They always give 100% even if they aren't the most gifted.

 

Benali, Dodd, Killer, Ormerod, CMFG, Niemi

 

Appearance - ...

 

Ostlund, Keegan, Crouch

 

Scores against Pompey

 

E.g. Beattie, Pahars, Dodd

 

You might not regard many of those listed above as 'legends' I was just giving examples. But what does a player have to do to be remembered as being that little bit special?

[Deanovski]

MLT and clause are good examples imo, killer to.

[Nineteen Canteen]

Integrity, first and foremost as a player, manager etc and as an ambassador thereafter. One word, and why Bates is without equal.

[Nineteen Canteen]

MLT and clause are good examples imo, killer to.

 

I agree with Killer but you have to be a great player for your position and who could have played at a higher level or did so. Claus was not good enough playing wise IMO to be classed as a legend same as Benali. Well loved and loyal players but not legends. Anyway Claus's integrity went out of the window when he decided to drive a tank of a 'car' after a few wines, respect goes out of the window after that I'm afraid, especially in this day and age.

[david in sweden]

 

You might not regard many of those listed above as 'legends' I was just giving examples. But what does a player have to do to be remembered as being that little bit special?

 

I think all those categories are valid choices, but of course any " potential legend " won't fit into all these categories. Perhaps two or three. Ekelund for example was only with us for about half a season and played only 17 games ! (He did put in some great performances) but there are lots of players who have had a good season / half season and did little more.

(Chris Baird, Crouch and Camara who come to mind!) Beattie had some good seasons (and one VERY good) but I would have been more impressed had he stayed with Saints - as did MLT..who is definitely a legend ! I'm big on loyalty.

 

However, for those of us a bit longer in the tooth, there are some glowing omissions in your list of examples. ANY player who has put in 10 years and /or 400 apps. has to be categorised to start with ..so don't forget Nick Holmes the only (?) locally born player ever to captain a Saints side (on a regular basis anyway.) Holmes and the 60's star Jimmy Gabriel were good examples of players who could play almost anywhere and turn in a good performance.

 

While most of those examples you gave were good examples it has to depend on your generation, but NO-ONE who saw a strike force with Paine, Channon, Davies and Sydenham has ever seen a better front-line in Saints colours.

 

Yes... there have been many "fans favourites" and colourful characters who were popular figures...but IMHO " legend " is a special tribute which should be spared for "the few" .

Edited 16 November, 2009 by david in sweden

[krissyboy31]

I agree with Killer but you have to be a great player for your position and who could have played at a higher level or did so. Claus was not good enough playing wise IMO to be classed as a legend same as Benali. Well loved and loyal players but not legends. Anyway Claus's integrity went out of the window when he decided to drive a tank of a 'car' after a few wines, respect goes out of the window after that I'm afraid, especially in this day and age.

 

Don't agree with that. That means that unless you are one of the very top clubs, you can't have legends. A chap I worked with for several years, Dave Lewis (actually a Skate but a decent bloke) was an absolute legend at Cheltenham Town because he was their all-time goal scorer. Never played a game above Southern League level but a legend all the same.

 

Legends (and I think the term is used too readily) are players that have done exceptional things for a club at the particular level it is playing.

 

Your views on McMenemy are well documented but as a manager took a relatively small provincial club to become one of this country's best for much of the eighties. Therefore Legend!

 

Ted Bates loyalty unequalled anywhere in the world, I would have thought. 60 odd years, granddad, man and boy occupying just about every roll at the club. Therefore Legend!

 

Playing wise it has to be players with over 350 appearances and/or exceptional goal scoring record. The Terry Paines, Mick Channons, Jason Dodds and Matthew Le Tissiers of this world.

 

Also I would put most capped in that bracket, so although Peter Shilton is not particularly synonymous with SFC but with over 40 England caps as a Saints player, I would categorise him a Saints legend.

Edited 16 November, 2009 by krissyboy31

[Nineteen Canteen]

Don't agree with that. That means that unless you are one of the very top clubs, you can't have legends. A chap I worked with for several years, Dave Lewis (actually a Skate but a decent bloke) was an absolute legend at Cheltenham Town because he was their all-time goal scorer. Never played a game above Southern League level but a legend all the same.

 

Legends (and I think the term is used too readily) are players that have done exceptional things for a club at the particular level it is playing.

 

Your views on McMenemy are well documented but as a manager took a relatively small provincial club to become one of this country's best for much of the eighties. Therefore Legend!

 

Ted Bates loyalty unequalled anywhere in the world, I would have thought. 60 odd years, granddad, man and boy occupying just about every roll at the club. Therefore Legend!

 

Playing wise it has to be players with over 350 appearances and/or exceptional goal scoring record. The Terry Paines, Mick Channons, Jason Dodds and Matthew Le Tissiers of this world.

 

Also I would put most capped in that bracket, so although Peter Shilton is not particularly synonymous with SFC but with over 40 England caps as a Saints player, I would categorise him a Saints legend.

 

On reflection I may not have worded that very well and I was trying to address the previous poster's view as Claus as a playing legend when really he was just a long serving player who we readily identify with.

 

I agree legends is an over used word and the danger is that the loyal and much loved servants become legends for simply being a good player and holding onto their position as is the case for the likes of Benali, Dodd and Lundekvam. If during their time they go on to beat club records as in your example then I agree there is a strong case to be made.

 

I do feel integrity and loyalty are key components of any legend and Ted Bates is the greatest example of that and is IMO the Saints legend and in our lifetime we will not see another with his record, if ever.

 

That is why I am so disappointed with McMenemy and MLT who undoubtedly did much to earn the status of legend as part of their day jobs but in keeping their ties with the club since they retired from their main role they have not exactly conducted themselves in the mould of Ted Bates IMO.

 

Perhaps we should simply set the benchmark for Legend at Ted Bates level and anyone not matching that status is simply varying degrees of much loved, loyal servant etc.

[Johnny Bognor]

I think we are setting our sights too high.

 

If Vince Hillaire and Ray Crawford are considered to be Skate legends, the blue few obviously set their bar a lot lower than we do.

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=503060&postcount=3413

[derry]

Legends, for me Terry Paine, Ron Davies, Mick Channon and Matt LeTissier all the other names were great servants. Ted Bates is in a class all of his own, player, coach and arguably the best manager of all time bearing in mind the supporters gave him £1000 to buy his first player and where he took us.

[krissyboy31]

Legends, for me Terry Paine, Ron Davies, Mick Channon and Matt LeTissier all the other names were great servants. Ted Bates is in a class all of his own, player, coach and arguably the best manager of all time bearing in mind the supporters gave him £1000 to buy his first player and where he took us.

 

But is that is due to the era that you grew up. I'll hazard a guess that there are more people in the crowd that never saw any of these play than did and therefore not such great heroes as following generations. They are as much historic names to most, as maybe Kirby and Wayman are to you.

[Toadhall Saint]

Quite simply a one club man. Legend "status" is given out far too easy IMHO.

[derry]

But is that is due to the era that you grew up. I'll hazard a guess that there are more people in the crowd that never saw any of these play than did and therefore not such great heroes as following generations. They are as much historic names to most, as maybe Kirby and Wayman are to you.

 

That might be but I've seen them all since 1954 and include Shilton, Keegan, Armstrong, Benali, etc.etc but would still only class those 5 as legends.

 

Apart from being outstanding international class players, they were intensely loyal to Saints and apart from a winding down of careers played mainly for Saints in their prime.

[derry]

But is that is due to the era that you grew up. I'll hazard a guess that there are more people in the crowd that never saw any of these play than did and therefore not such great heroes as following generations. They are as much historic names to most, as maybe Kirby and Wayman are to you.

 

Charlie Wayman wasn't at Saints very long so I wouldn't class him as a legend, his best years were elsewhere. Which Kirby?

[jawillwill]

Was reading MLT's autobiography the other day (cheers Baj) and there were references to several players, including a certain James Beattie. Whilst not in the same class as Le Tiss, I do sometimes wonder why he isn't refered to as a "legend". I would certainly class him in the lower reaches of legendary status. Scored a lot of goals, including several winners against Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool, Pompey and Spurs. Some fantastic efforts, such as those scored at SJP and at home to WBA in the cup final season. Also put in a pretty decent work shift and has never bad mouthed the club since leaving.

 

For me there several attributes which could earn a player legendary status.

 

Loyalty - Either by long service or by turning down better offers.

 

E.g. MLT, Claus, Paine, Benali even Kelvin.

 

Number of goals - Either throughout their career or in a particular season.

 

E.g. Channon, MLT, Moran, Paine, Big Ron, Beattie

 

Skills and quality of goals - Just the pure skill

 

E.g. MLT, Pahars, Ekelund, Keegan

 

Scores in big matches - Relegation deciders, cup finals or against the big teams.

 

E.g. Stokes, Pahars, Beattie, even Stern John

 

Attitude or Work Rate - They always give 100% even if they aren't the most gifted.

 

Benali, Dodd, Killer, Ormerod, CMFG, Niemi

 

Appearance - ...

 

Ostlund, Keegan, Crouch

 

Scores against Pompey

 

E.g. Beattie, Pahars, Dodd

 

You might not regard many of those listed above as 'legends' I was just giving examples. But what does a player have to do to be remembered as being that little bit special?

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't Beattie leave us halfway through our relegation season in the premiership? As good a player as he was (and I still do like him) a "legend" would at least have the decency to stay til the end!

[dubai_phil]

Good OP question.

 

Nick Holmes - great servant, gave his all, yet why do fans today regard Benali in higher esteem.

 

Perhaps one definition that could be used would be "A player that fans of other teams wish to go and watch"

 

So for example, Best Charlton & Law were footballing legends as when we were "kids" we all wanted to see them play.

 

Did other fans feel disappointed when Benali or Claus weren't in our team? :-)

 

So, following that train of thought, perhaps we should look at Legends as being "Players Saints fans WANTED to watch play"

 

But no, then that means Skacel, Charlie George, heck Lee Holmes sometimes....

 

So for me it would have to be a mix of "breaking records" while at the club. Making that extra effort when playing for us, doing something "special" on regular occassions and, most importantly having risen above the parapet so that other fans would have some respect for them, AND "becoming an International or Internationally known player" while at Saints. (ie not an imported International so sorry no Claus)

[krissyboy31]

Charlie Wayman wasn't at Saints very long so I wouldn't class him as a legend, his best years were elsewhere. Which Kirby?

 

Re. Wayman, 4 years was probably not very long back then but if you compare it with the modern game, it's almost testimonial loyalty.

 

When typing Kirby it was George Kirby but I actually was thinking of George O'Brien at the time. I could have said Derek Reeves or any of the 50's fans favourites. I agree obviously with Paine and Channon as Saints' legends but Davies although great player, I wouldn't place him in the legends.

 

BTW I was old enough to see Paine and Davies play (although only a handful of games). Channon was and always will be my all time hero.

[derry]

Re. Wayman, 4 years was probably not very long back then but if you compare it with the modern game, it's almost testimonial loyalty.

 

When typing Kirby it was George Kirby but I actually was thinking of George O'Brien at the time. I could have said Derek Reeves or any of the 50's fans favourites. I agree obviously with Paine and Channon as Saints' legends but Davies although great player, I wouldn't place him in the legends.

 

BTW I was old enough to see Paine and Davies play (although only a handful of games). Channon was and always will be my all time hero.

 

George Kirby wasn't at Saints very long at all that's why I wouldn't count players like that. He didn't do a lot when he was here. George O'Brien was as close as you would get to a legend for me 180 goals, 2 every 3 games and one of my favourite players.

 

Ron Davies at the time he played for us in the first division, was arguably one of the best strikers in the world at the time, he could have gone anywhere but didn't, that's what makes him stand out.

 

Derek Reeves was a very hit and miss player, scored 45 in one season but Sydenham, Paine, O'Brien and Mulgrew/Clifton were a pretty lethal combination. He missed a hundred more. Good club man but no legend.

Edited 16 November, 2009 by derry

[Fowllyd]

It's all about definition really, isn't it? One person's criteria for legend status are bound to differ from another's. Myself, I'd choose players who made a contribution and an impact which stands apart from the ordinary. It could be anything from a one-off moment to many years of sterling service to the club.

 

So I'd call Bobby Stokes a Saints legend because of his goal in '76 - and even if he'd done nothing else for Saints I'd still feel the same way, simply because of what it meant to both the club and the city (and to me, obviously enough). Other figures spring more obviously to mind, of course - Bates, Paine, Davies, Channon, Le Tissier, McMenemy...

 

I'd also consider Nick Holmes a Saints legend (pace Phil's post above) and that's just down to personal preference. For many years he was one of those names I always felt happier for seeing on the team sheet (and for many years he was very rarely not on it); he gave everything in a variety of roles; and he provided a few moments I'll always remember - a magnificent winner against Liverpool in '83, a cool-as-ice goal-line clearance at Upton Park (in a match we won 1-0), a goal from halfway against Watford (yep, pity about the second leg!).

 

As I said, personal, subjective preference - but how the hell could anybody be objective about something like this?

[aintforever]

You can't make rules up for stuff like this.

 

For example if we play pompey in the cup this year and Wotton scores a 94th minute winner with a hand ball he would instantly become a legend.

 

Likewise you could argue that though Keegan didn't hang around for long, the fact that he was the European Player of the Year when he signed on the dotted line for Saints, makes him a legend.

[krissyboy31]

You can't make rules up for stuff like this.

 

For example if we play pompey in the cup this year and Wotton scores a 94th minute winner with a hand ball he would instantly become a legend.

 

Likewise you could argue that though Keegan didn't hang around for long, the fact that he was the European Player of the Year when he signed on the dotted line for Saints, makes him a legend.

 

I thought scoring against the Skates was one of the rules. Moran, Magilton, Shipps and even Blackstock qualify under that criteria.

[View From The Top]

A subjective subject and food for thought.

 

MLT is the obvious "legend" and the rest will, I guess, depend on if you saw them play.

 

Phil Bowyer was/is a legend to me, as are David Peach and Mark Denis.

 

Channon fits in as does Alan Ball but my father would have said Big Ron and Charlie Wayman.

 

Interesting thread.

[Cricketphilly]

A subjective subject and food for thought.

 

MLT is the obvious "legend" and the rest will, I guess, depend on if you saw them play.

 

Phil Bowyer was/is a legend to me, as are David Peach and Mark Denis.

 

Channon fits in as does Alan Ball but my father would have said Big Ron and Charlie Wayman.

 

Interesting thread.

 

All valid, what about Steve Williams?

[View From The Top]

All valid, what about Steve Williams?

 

I toyed with the idea and whilst I loved watching him play, and he really was THAT good, it cheesed me off no end when he went to Arsenal so I left him off.

 

Ivan Golac should be on my list though along with Moran and Armstrong.

[WestSaint]

Back in the sixties and seventies players did not chop and change their clubs as much as now. Managers were also given a much longer time to try and be successful with their team. Times therefore have changed - Managers come and go frequently as instant success is craved and different managers bring with them different coaching teams and buy new players. The merry go round of players, managers and now even owners make it more difficult these days for legend status to be applied to todays players as they are not around for as long as they once were.

 

This is why Le Tiss is a legend - He was a great player that stayed with us throughout

Of course nobody is perfect, but if you need your heros to be perfect, I don't know where you will look for that trait these days !!. A previous poster referred to Paine, Ron Davies etc - and I would agree they are legends. They never had the spotlight of the media shone on them like the players of today though

[Nineteen Canteen]

Re. Wayman, 4 years was probably not very long back then but if you compare it with the modern game, it's almost testimonial loyalty.

 

When typing Kirby it was George Kirby but I actually was thinking of George O'Brien at the time. I could have said Derek Reeves or any of the 50's fans favourites. I agree obviously with Paine and Channon as Saints' legends but Davies although great player, I wouldn't place him in the legends.

 

BTW I was old enough to see Paine and Davies play (although only a handful of games). Channon was and always will be my all time hero.

 

Have to agree with this 100% and the fact he has gone on to reach the pinnacle of another sport where winning Group 1 races has long been the reserve of the landed gentry or those from within the racing circle the man has proven himself to be a genius both on and off the pitch. A real hero of great integrity and the only one who gets close to Bates.

[for_heaven's_Saint]

What about comedy value? Ali Dia should be regarded as a legend IMO.

[Nineteen Canteen]

A subjective subject and food for thought.

 

MLT is the obvious "legend" and the rest will, I guess, depend on if you saw them play.

 

Phil Bowyer was/is a legend to me, as are David Peach and Mark Denis.

 

Channon fits in as does Alan Ball but my father would have said Big Ron and Charlie Wayman.

 

Interesting thread.

 

Is or was? Memories fade if not looked after and nurtured.

[RonManager]

My personal legend, with due deference to the discussion of criteria above, is John McGrath. Whenever I think of a Saints centre -half, his name appears on the big screen in my head, flashing on and off in bright red.

 

RIP mate.

[david in sweden]

I thought scoring against the Skates was one of the rules. Moran, Magilton, Shipps and even Blackstock qualify under that criteria.

 

 

If you use the " Skate " example, then you must include NORMAN DEAN.

Several years a good reserve player, but later played half a season in the promotion side 1965-66 however,

that included a hat-trick at Fratton Park.

 

Norman is the only Saints player ever to score a hat-trick at Fratton Park. THIS IS A RECORD...

 

Tough on Norman though, when we went up to Div.1 he lost his place to a new signing called RON DAVIES !

(the rest ..as they say ..is history)

[Charlie2008]

Ivan Golac should be on my list though along with Moran and Armstrong.

 

A golden age.

 

I would have to include Chris Nicholl if I was making a list as well as the obvious candidates MLT, Killer, Claus, Holmes, Channon & Ball (Not Cannon and Ball before somone chips in with the obvious retort), Shilts, Beatts and an often overlooked super-sub, still involved in the club, David Puckett. :cool:

[SNSUN]

For me, it's any player we're still talking about long after he's gone (for the right reasons, not the Ali Dia reasons.) People on here still talk about Chris Marsden Football Genius, and that means he was doing something right.

 

Any player that comes in and works his nuts off for us, states his love for the club and is a success can become a legend. Benali wasn't the most accomplished of defenders but always gave 100%, and thus is remembered fondly by us.

 

I think players that start out with us and do well find it easier to become legends, because they become a product of our youth team. Had Walcott or Bale stayed, even for another couple of seasons, then they could have written themselves into Saints folklore.

[Arizona]

A legend doesn't nescessarily have to be good. Dia could be considered a legend, but for all the wrong reasons.

[revolution saint]

As someone else posted earlier - there are no rules for this. I'll contradict myself now by saying IMO to be a legend then you have to be completely identified with Southampton and only Southampton. When you think of Channon you don't think Pompey, Man City, Norwich, Newcastle (I think) - you think Saints. For whatever reason be it skill, goals, dedication, loyalty, longevity the fans need to identify that player as "one of us". Keegan and Shearer were great players but they'll never be Southampton legends.

 

There is another rung slightly slower on the ladder - that of cult hero. It would be difficult to suggest Benali is a legend but I'm sure he'd be happy with cult hero.

[david in sweden]

As someone else posted earlier - there are no rules for this. I'll contradict myself now by saying IMO to be a legend then you have to be completely identified with Southampton and only Southampton. When you think of Channon you don't think Pompey, Man City, Norwich, Newcastle (I think) - you think Saints. For whatever reason be it skill, goals, dedication, loyalty, longevity the fans need to identify that player as "one of us". Keegan and Shearer were great players but they'll never be Southampton legends.

 

There is another rung slightly slower on the ladder - that of cult hero. It would be difficult to suggest Benali is a legend but I'm sure he'd be happy with cult hero.

 

 

Good post Revolution Saint.

Legends certainly should have a good / longer history with the club. min. 3-4 seasons and good peformances, goalscoring etc, and 100/150 apps. Less than a dozen players have made over 400 apps. in the clubs history but if that doesn't qualify them for legend status - nothing does.

 

"Cult heros" are fan favourites (for various reasons). Locally born Frannie Benali (though a 100% player) wouldn't rate in the top 5 of the clubs BEST left backs. Ekelund was a real success ..for half-a-season.. and many were sorry to see him go .. but legend - not really. Someone like Marian Pahars..it's maybe borderline.. but his goals at the end of his first season certainly kept us up that season.

 

It's all down to the individuals own favourites. BUT for sheer class I will nominate a few players who played the majority of their games with OTHER clubs... but still made tremendous impact for Saints.

Jimmy Gabriel,Chris Nicholl, Boyer, MacDougall, Golac, Peter Shilton, Alan Ball, Jimmy Case. (I'll stop there....)

 

To be fair it's impossible for newer fans who'd never seen them play to make comparisons, but we have had some very good players in every generation.

[Wes Tender]

I do feel integrity and loyalty are key components of any legend and Ted Bates is the greatest example of that and is IMO the Saints legend and in our lifetime we will not see another with his record, if ever.

 

That is why I am so disappointed with McMenemy and MLT who undoubtedly did much to earn the status of legend as part of their day jobs but in keeping their ties with the club since they retired from their main role they have not exactly conducted themselves in the mould of Ted Bates IMO.

 

 

You are so wide of the mark, you're in the next County.

 

You might as well examine the background of the players when they were children too, if you are going to take into consideration what they did when they left us. The discussion about legendary status for the club is largely down to the players' abilities on the pitch, not what career choices they make afterwards. Ted Bates is the exception, because having already established his legendary status as a player and as a manager, he went on to continue his connection with the club with distinction. Had he ceased his connection with the club after his management stint, he would not have been considered any less a legend, any more than MLT's and Lawrie Mac's status as legends is diminished by their post footballing or management activities when their careers ended.

 

I know that you love to gnaw on that particular bone ad-nauseum, but if you wish to be taken seriously at all, do try and get some intelligent perspective.