Saints debts paid in full?

[iansums]

Just read this article on the Guardian website:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2010/feb/10/portsmouth-cardiff-hmrc-winding-up

 

'except at Southampton, where last year Markus Liebherr paid Saints' debts in full'

 

I did not think that was the case at all. I thougt he paid approx. £12M for the club most of which was paid to Aviva for the stadium even though the outstanding amount was approx. £22M?

[JustMike]

yes its true

[iansums]

yes its true

 

Which? My take on it or the Guardian's?

[JustMike]

Which? My take on it or the Guardian's?

 

we are debt free

[iansums]

we are debt free

 

Yes, I understand that. However, the Guardian are suggesting that the debts were paid in full. I thought ML paid just a percentage of that, an amount which satisfied the creditors, Aviva being the main one.

[JustMike]

Yes, I understand that. However, the Guardian are suggesting that the debts were paid in full. I thought ML paid just a percentage of that, an amount which satisfied the creditors, Aviva being the main one.

 

 

ahh ok i see. Im not sure of the final figure but you can bet it was nowhere near full

[dune]

Nicola Cortese stated at the fans forum that we are completely debt free and that Mr Liebherr is funding this project from his personal account.

[iansums]

It never fails to surprise me how mis-informed the national press are when it comes to Saints and our problems last year. Perhaps I should just stick to reading the Echo....

 

 

 

 

... I'll get my coat!

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Just read this article on the Guardian website:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2010/feb/10/portsmouth-cardiff-hmrc-winding-up

 

'except at Southampton, where last year Markus Liebherr paid Saints' debts in full'

 

I did not think that was the case at all. I thougt he paid approx. £12M for the club most of which was paid to Aviva for the stadium even though the outstanding amount was approx. £22M?

 

You are correct Ian - ML paid out around 12m which satisfied the creditors and wiped out debt and morgage. A bargain when you see what is on offer down the road.

[John D]

The question though is how is the current expenditure being funded. I know with reasonable certainty we will lose a lot of money this year due to running costs and transfers. Is this funded through loans from the chairman as happened at poopey or by equity or gifts? Hope it is one of the last two or there may be trouble ahead

[saints triumph]

At the fans forum, Nichola was asked in person whether we were debt free and he said we were. Marcus paid out what was needed to wipe out the debt set by the administrator.

[Ken Tone]

At the fans forum, Nichola was asked in person whether we were debt free and he said we were. Marcus paid out what was needed to wipe out the debt set by the administrator.

 

Exactly. We didn't pay the debts in full. Guardian is wrong.

 

Herr Liebherr paid what he was required to do by the deal with the administrator. Creditors lost money.

 

However we are now debt free, because that was a final (though only partial) pay out.

 

K.

[The Incongruous Monk]

The question though is how is the current expenditure being funded. I know with reasonable certainty we will lose a lot of money this year due to running costs and transfers. Is this funded through loans from the chairman as happened at poopey or by equity or gifts? Hope it is one of the last two or there may be trouble ahead

 

It's not being loaned. Also, our cup runs and boosted attendances, combined with lack of debt repayments may well mean we're profitable this season, or at least close to break even.

[Saints4Prem]

A relative of mine is a small sub contractor at the club and thought he had lost his money (around £400) after admin. He was very surprised sometime after the takeover to receive his money in full. There is a lot of honour in the new regime which should be applauded.

COYR

[JonnyLove]

The question though is how is the current expenditure being funded. I know with reasonable certainty we will lose a lot of money this year due to running costs and transfers. Is this funded through loans from the chairman as happened at poopey or by equity or gifts? Hope it is one of the last two or there may be trouble ahead

 

Well for a start we don't have stupid debts to pay on a mortgage on the stadium. Then there are high earners off the bill and lots of fans at the games.

 

Also NC has stated that any moneys coming into the club from ML are not in the form of loans but as investment into the club.

 

So well done us

[Arizona]

The question though is how is the current expenditure being funded. I know with reasonable certainty we will lose a lot of money this year due to running costs and transfers. Is this funded through loans from the chairman as happened at poopey or by equity or gifts? Hope it is one of the last two or there may be trouble ahead

 

Pretty sure it was said Markus is funding the transfers and Staplewood development out of his own pocket. I would see it as an investment more than anything else. Good players and facilities are solid assets, which can generally be sold on if needed.

 

The difference with Pompey is that they paid astronomical wages, money which has just been completely p*ssed up the wall because you cannot 'sell' the wages when the player leaves. That's £80k a week on Utaka, £60k a week on Crouch, £90k a week on Campbell gone forever. That's why they're in a hole.

 

Can't see our losses being that bad this season. We have much higher gates than most League 1 clubs, possibly to the tune of £6m a year on teams like Oldham and Hartlepool. The higher matchday catering and merchandise associated with that will bring in a bit. The FA Cup and JPT campaigns will have netted us a couple of million.

 

With higher gates, I can't see that our income has really dropped since last year. We have also lost Euell, BWP, John, Skacel, Saganowski and Rasiak from the wage bill. Even with Lambert, Fonte etc. I'd say it's still less than last season.

[John D]

It's not being loaned. Also, our cup runs and boosted attendances, combined with lack of debt repayments may well mean we're profitable this season, or at least close to break even.

 

How do you know it isn't a loan?

[lordswoodsaints]

Did you see alan knight talking about Pompey?....

 

Something along the lines of 'nobody knows what any potential buyers will be getting for their money but they will be getting the Portsmouth name and great fans'

made me chuckle.....'i know, let's buy Portsmouth fc,we get the name plus some fookin smelly bell ringing knobjockys for £80m'

 

it's a snip:-)

[david in sweden]

Pretty sure it was said Markus is funding the transfers and Staplewood development out of his own pocket. I would see it as an investment more than anything else. Good players and facilities are solid assets, which can generally be sold on if needed.

 

The difference with Pompey is that they paid astronomical wages, money which has just been completely p*ssed up the wall because you cannot 'sell' the wages when the player leaves. That's £80k a week on Utaka, £60k a week on Crouch, £90k a week on Campbell gone forever. That's why they're in a hole.

 

 

Football club chairmen play with monopoly money and forget what they have invested in until it's too late. Take the Utaka deal. I don't know how much they paid for him BUT £80K /week is around £4 million per year for ONE player.

How long was he signed for ...2 years, 3 ? ..more ? Then you have to pay his Employment tax etc (which Pompey obviously hadn't done )

 

How many players did they have on similar deals?...or even "cheaper" deals, say only £40K /week ..thats only £2million/year PER PLAYER plus TAX etc, (Then you have 'arry's cut of the deal ..no that can't be right )...:smt119

How many others players came to the club on Big fees, which are also subject to Tax (which they didn't pay either).

Goodness knows what their salary bill was..?

 

If they sold out FP for every home match at £40/seat, thats £800K per match x 19 Prem. games = £15 million (inkl. VAT - which they also didn't pay) from gate receipts. It doesn't take a genius to work out they have to sell a lot of awful shirts to make up the shortfall.Even their cut of the TV money doesn't make much of a dent in that equation.

 

I'm only a humble business man and I can work that out. No wonder their club is in such a state.

Edited 10 February, 2010 by david in sweden

[beatlesaint]

How do you know it isn't a loan?

 

Who is he loaning the money to ? Himself ? He is the owner. If you buy yourself a new TV are you loaning yourself the money to buy it ?

How many times does NC have to say that ML is funding this out of his own pocket as an investment ?

If, and I think its a big if, he decided to sell the club in a few years time it would be worth a lot more than the price paid to get the club out of admin.

 

And why do you say the club is running at a loss this season ? The attendances have risen dramatically, especially this week and the prize money for each round of the FA Cup as well as the £250,000 for live coverage of Saturday's tie......even the Echo conceeded that Saints were going to rake in over a million on the back of the JPT and FA Cup runs....and now a Wembley final and all the extra merchandise......I would doubt if this club, or many others for that matter has been in such good financial health.

[sidthesquid]

Not clever enough to work it out, but would the debt for the mortgage be calculated including all future interest payments, or just the initial capital loaned?

[Dr Who?]

How do you know it isn't a loan?

 

Mr Liebherr does not have any loans and does not believe in having any in any of his business. I love the way the club is run. We have a very good club again, with very low overheads compared to other clubs.

[Legod Third Coming]

John Utaka - £80k a week.

 

Feck me, who signed him, Arry Redknapp???

 

I mean, it sounds like he was signed to line the pockets of agents or something and that simply could not be true.

 

And I expect that is not remotely true of other players on huge wages there or elsewhere.

 

FWIW, Pompey fans have my sympathy - they didn't steal the FA Cup, their former management on the other hand...

[Dr Who?]

John Utaka - £80k a week.

 

Feck me, who signed him, Arry Redknapp???

 

I mean, it sounds like he was signed to line the pockets of agents or something and that simply could not be true.

 

And I expect that is not remotely true of other players on huge wages there or elsewhere.

 

FWIW, Pompey fans have my sympathy - they didn't steal the FA Cup, their former management on the other hand...

 

It is criminal they won the FA Cup with players they knew they could not afford, and still have not paid for, even though some have moved on!! Crazy!

[Toadhall Saint]

All of this makes me laugh - ML is worth billions not millions. The money he has spent so far does not even scratch the surface of his personal wealth. I would have thought that what he earns in interest in a year has covered a big % of what he has spent on us.

 

So debt and loans really do not come into the equation. All IMHO of course.

[St Landrew]

Nicola Cortese stated at the fans forum that we are completely debt free and that Mr Liebherr is funding this project from his personal account.

 

Indeed. This is one club which will never need to go a bank for money while Markus is around. Here's hoping the long term is verrrrrry long.

[Legod Third Coming]

It is criminal they won the FA Cup with players they knew they could not afford, and still have not paid for, even though some have moved on!! Crazy!

 

I agree. It's time for football to take some tough and hugely overdue decisions. After all, what happens when United go bust?

[Noodles34]

In my opinion it would go into the club as a 'directors loan', at the very least there would be personal tax advantages for ML. That does not mean that he would ever want the money back...... until he sold the club! (ala Mr Gay from down the road)

Lets not fool ourselves too much, as nice as a chap he may well be (and is I reckon) he is still one of the most successful Euro businessman around and as a businessman you do things the right way in respect of making and protecting money. To suggest he would just 'donate' money is folly, why would he? I run a business, its mine BUT if I need to inject money then it is in a loan format and I can draw back on that. If my business was ever sold then I can get that money back as a creditor.

Clearly he has no need to get his money back now or in the short term but you never know what is around the corner and so unless its to charity why would you just give the money away. Don't forget that ML and SFC are two separate entities, its his club 100% but its still accountable as a business, probably a 'Limited' company, i can't imagine that he is treating this a 'sole trader' business, therefore he would almost certainly be loaning his (ML) money to SFC.

Thats what I reckon anyway.

[St Landrew]

In my opinion it would go into the club as a 'directors loan', at the very least there would be personal tax advantages for ML. That does not mean that he would ever want the money back...... until he sold the club! (ala Mr Gay from down the road)

Lets not fool ourselves too much, as nice as a chap he may well be (and is I reckon) he is still one of the most successful Euro businessman around and as a businessman you do things the right way in respect of making and protecting money. To suggest he would just 'donate' money is folly, why would he? I run a business, its mine BUT if I need to inject money then it is in a loan format and I can draw back on that. If my business was ever sold then I can get that money back as a creditor.

Clearly he has no need to get his money back now or in the short term but you never know what is around the corner and so unless its to charity why would you just give the money away. Don't forget that ML and SFC are two separate entities, its his club 100% but its still accountable as a business, probably a 'Limited' company, i can't imagine that he is treating this a 'sole trader' business, therefore he would almost certainly be loaning his (ML) money to SFC.

Thats what I reckon anyway.

 

Agreed, but I think there will be a bit of both. Remember, the new training facilities are NOT a loan, but Markus is paying for it completely, because he wanted to. There will undoubtedly be other occasional gestures of this nature.

[Whitey Grandad]

Not clever enough to work it out, but would the debt for the mortgage be calculated including all future interest payments, or just the initial capital loaned?

The debt for the mortgae would have been the amount owing. Depending on the terms of the contract there pay have been 'penalties' for early repayment of the debt, but it's not normally like hire purchase where you are liable for all the interest, even if you settle early. Having said that, the new buyer may have come to an agreement with the mortgagers to settle for less than the debt.

[mancsaint]

It is normal for the administrator to negotiate with creditors for them to accept so many pence in the pound to clear debts. Aviva, the mortgage holder, might have accepted 30p in the pound in full satisfaction knowing what their reputation would have been had they pulled SMS down to built flats. Not saying that was the reason just a possible reason, could have been anything. With the story about a relative receiving a cheque for £400 to clear a club debt it might be that ML decided to clear in full all minor debts as they would relate to local businesses in the main. He is a religious man so within the bounds of possibity.

[paulwantsapint]

If ML wants to run Saints at a loss will it not reduce his tax bill as will not show as much of a profit on other ML companies

But ML is THE ALMIGHTY GOD ( MLT is still LE GOD )

[hughieslastminutegoal]

If ML wants to run Saints at a loss will it not reduce his tax bill as will not show as much of a profit on other ML companies

But ML is THE ALMIGHTY GOD ( MLT is still LE GOD )

 

I think you are mixing up a billionnaire's business requirements with those of business small fry (like Lowe, though I'm not for a second implying that it was even possible for Lowe to indulge in such offsetting). In the context of Liebherr's businesses, such tinkering would have all the impact of an ant's footprint on the planet.

[Channon's Sideburns]

Football club chairmen play with monopoly money and forget what they have invested in until it's too late. Take the Utaka deal. I don't know how much they paid for him BUT £80K /week is around £4 million per year for ONE player.

How long was he signed for ...2 years, 3 ? ..more ? Then you have to pay his Employment tax etc (which Pompey obviously hadn't done )

 

How many players did they have on similar deals?...or even "cheaper" deals, say only £40K /week ..thats only £2million/year PER PLAYER plus TAX etc, (Then you have 'arry's cut of the deal ..no that can't be right )...:smt119

How many others players came to the club on Big fees, which are also subject to Tax (which they didn't pay either).

Goodness knows what their salary bill was..?

 

If they sold out FP for every home match at £40/seat, thats £800K per match x 19 Prem. games = £15 million (inkl. VAT - which they also didn't pay) from gate receipts. It doesn't take a genius to work out they have to sell a lot of awful shirts to make up the shortfall.Even their cut of the TV money doesn't make much of a dent in that equation.

 

I'm only a humble business man and I can work that out. No wonder their club is in such a state.

 

Humble businessman you may be David, but you've proved in one statement that you have more business nous than Storrie.

 

Who, had he been switched on, should have walked after Harry went.

[derry]

The Pompey tax bill on the salaries alone is going up by about a million a month. That is without VAT liability on trading. HMRC said insolvent.

 

Only another 14 days until £1.8m has to be paid out in February salaries plus the tax, NI, VAT etc added to HMRC bill.

 

Only way out, Current owners invest and satisfy the creditors they can continue trading legally, new owners pay the bills or do the same.

 

From our point of view the Leibherr's don't allow their companies to borrow money.

[beancounter saint]

A relative of mine is a small sub contractor at the club and thought he had lost his money (around £400) after admin. He was very surprised sometime after the takeover to receive his money in full. There is a lot of honour in the new regime which should be applauded.

COYR

 

Sounds good. Just don't tell Aviva about it!