What is wrong with referees?

[Professor]

After looking at the re-run of the MK Dons game, Fonte's dive looks just too obvious. If you watched the Liverpool/Man U game you will may have seen Valencia's dive - having been obstructed outside the area he crossed the line and threw himself down. In both cases, the ref was on hand. At our game he could not have been better placed to see that Fonte fell in circumstances where he would have stayed on his feet if that had been anywhere else on the field.

 

Is it the refs who are ruining the game by giving soft penalties, which often change the result of matches out of proportion to the play, or is it the administrators who are failing to give proper advice? I was glad of the win, but I want us to win because we are good at football, not because we are better at conning the ref. If its win at all costs, why have any rules at all?

[70's Mike]

ever since every referee was assessed by assessors at all pro games, the standard has dropped.

before that refs were marked by the 2 teams and therefore their promotion up the leagues depended on football people rather than fellow refs.

[Shropshire Saint]

At Tranmere we had a soft penalty given against us. At MK Dons we had a soft penalty given to us. Such is life.

[Window Cleaner]

After looking at the re-run of the MK Dons game, Fonte's dive looks just too obvious. If you watched the Liverpool/Man U game you will may have seen Valencia's dive - having been obstructed outside the area he crossed the line and threw himself down. In both cases, the ref was on hand. At our game he could not have been better placed to see that Fonte fell in circumstances where he would have stayed on his feet if that had been anywhere else on the field.

 

Is it the refs who are ruining the game by giving soft penalties, which often change the result of matches out of proportion to the play, or is it the administrators who are failing to give proper advice? I was glad of the win, but I want us to win because we are good at football, not because we are better at conning the ref. If its win at all costs, why have any rules at all?

 

 

 

I've not had the benefit of a HD slow motion feed on the Fonté incident but

to me the MKplayer appears to clip his ankle, that's a foul, in the area it's a penalty. From the little I've seen of Saturday's match there could be any number of penalties (under today's rules) for either side because of all the holding and shirt pulling that goes on every time there's a dangerous free kick or corner.I think it was the 2002 WC when refs were told to pay particular attention to shirt pulling and there were so many fouls that in the end they ended up ignoring it most of the time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/2734579.stm

Here's a piece from 2003 where a ref explains himself. On Saturday Dave was continuously on about all the elbowing that was going on, he obviously saw it but the ref either didn't or thought it was 50/50 anyway.From a couple of weeks back on that bad bad penalty I'm sure it was given because Seaborne has his arm across the other blokes throat and was probably holding his shirt to stop him turning. Your average ref is no mug though, just because they can't see it it doesn't mean that they don't know that it's going on.

[The9]

.From a couple of weeks back on that bad bad penalty I'm sure it was given because Seaborne has his arm across the other blokes throat and was probably holding his shirt to stop him turning.

 

You ARE still the only person who believes this though, tbf.

 

*May as well use part of one of my 3 posts a day to note that my Subscription renewal bounced using an old debit card number so I've changed it and I'm waiting til it auto-retries in a couple of days rather than risking paying twice... will be a frustrating, ad-gazing, tongue-biting few days, especially if we don't beat Hartlepool

[Frank's cousin]

There are several problems... FIFA being teh main one.... In their attempt to try and address simulation, yet also be more assertive in ensuring the 'pushing, shoving and shirtpullin, in the box are heavily punished, they have confused refs with ambiguous and changing directives... the refs assessment is possibly not a bad thing... BUT they need to stop this crap of the managers having an input into the report which is why we end up with potentila bias... no one ca tell me that a ref might not be sub conciously effected by the knowledge that 'Sir Alex' will be inputting into an assessment...

 

 

Question is should players take more responsibilty? There are two schools of thought, 1) that says yes, and another that says no, its down to the ref...

 

It why for me if they dont want to use video replays to support real time decisons, then at least allow retrospective punsihment and bans for post match analysis of 'cheats' - seriously it would stop it in the top leagues which set a new standard and model for lower leagues to kids in the park.... but FIFA are make their rules and decsions based on the lowest level of the game... eg. kick abouts in the park - stating that the rules need to be effective at al levels.... problem is it just means the cheats get away with it, and the refs get the blame as they have no support either from replays or post match...

[brightspark]

If there was a position that you could dive and get away with it, it was the position Fonte was in. The referee was blinded by at least two players including the player that commited the offence. The assistant has no chance of seeing it, because he is on the other side of the field. The other assistant and 4th Official have no right to change the referees mind due to the distance that they are away from the incident, and therefore cannot have any input into the eventual decision.

 

The only way the referee could have done better in this situation was to run more into the corner, having a clearer angle on the tangle of legs between Fonte and Doumbe. This issue of fitness and speed is probably the difference between a league 1 ref and a UEFA ref.

 

Its funny because i've just come off the local Brisbane football forum commenting on a thread whining about the standard of refereeing. My belief is that as time has gone on, more has been expected of a referee. This is mainly due to increased media coverage and increased video replay scrutinising. The fans become more aware of the mistakes being made and often remember the mistakes more than the good decisions. As well as this, the footballing society we currently live in makes it "acceptable" for people to question or even abuse a referee. This should not be the case, but sadly it is.

[Ken Tone]

After looking at the re-run of the MK Dons game, Fonte's dive looks just too obvious. If you watched the Liverpool/Man U game you will may have seen Valencia's dive - having been obstructed outside the area he crossed the line and threw himself down. In both cases, the ref was on hand. At our game he could not have been better placed to see that Fonte fell in circumstances where he would have stayed on his feet if that had been anywhere else on the field.

 

Is it the refs who are ruining the game by giving soft penalties, which often change the result of matches out of proportion to the play, or is it the administrators who are failing to give proper advice? I was glad of the win, but I want us to win because we are good at football, not because we are better at conning the ref. If its win at all costs, why have any rules at all?

 

Just goes to show what a difficult job refs have. I saw the highlights on i-player this morning and thought their defender clearly caught Fonte's ankles from behind. Clumsy rather than vicious, but nonethless an obvious penalty to me.

 

Btw how good is it to have a centre back who can run and attack like that in the opposition penalty area.

 

K.

[Barry the Badger]

My personal opinion is that if managers and players want to moan about the refs they should stop ****ing cheating.

 

I get frustrated with refs a lot, but being a ref in the professional game is a tough job, made infinitely harder by the fact that the players are waiting for ANY opportunity to fool them.

 

In the case of Mascherano/Valencia. Whilst Liverpool might have a case, at the end of the day Mascherano was dragging him back having been beaten for pace. If he hadn't have done it there wouldn't have been a penalty, he's only got himself to blame, end of.

[Flyer]

10 years ago if the ref didnt see it, it wasnt a foul.

 

These days if the ref is not sure there was contact or not, he gives a foul and penalty.

 

I preferred the days of shirt pulling and no dives to today where even pundits think if a player was touched then the ref should give a penalty. If a player chooses to go down, the ref shouldnt award anything, that would stop the diving.

 

Also, diving is not punished, a player dived with no contact in a Wigan game right on the corner of the box. Pen was given but there was no suspension for the player so it will happen again.

[benjii]

After looking at the re-run of the MK Dons game, Fonte's dive looks just too obvious. If you watched the Liverpool/Man U game you will may have seen Valencia's dive - having been obstructed outside the area he crossed the line and threw himself down. In both cases, the ref was on hand. At our game he could not have been better placed to see that Fonte fell in circumstances where he would have stayed on his feet if that had been anywhere else on the field.

 

Is it the refs who are ruining the game by giving soft penalties, which often change the result of matches out of proportion to the play, or is it the administrators who are failing to give proper advice? I was glad of the win, but I want us to win because we are good at football, not because we are better at conning the ref. If its win at all costs, why have any rules at all?

 

A much more interesting question would be:

 

should defenders be allowed to commit cynical and deliberate fouls on players about to enter the penalty area, knowing full well that the only sanction will be a yellow-card?

 

Good for Fonte, good for Valencia.

[Turkish]

10 years ago if the ref didnt see it, it wasnt a foul.

 

These days if the ref is not sure there was contact or not, he gives a foul and penalty.

 

I preferred the days of shirt pulling and no dives to today where even pundits think if a player was touched then the ref should give a penalty. If a player chooses to go down, the ref shouldnt award anything, that would stop the diving.

 

Also, diving is not punished, a player dived with no contact in a Wigan game right on the corner of the box. Pen was given but there was no suspension for the player so it will happen again.

 

Every mistake at any level is now caught on TV. 25 years ago live football was a rare thing as were highlights so mistakes went largely unnoticed as technology was not about to blow the incidents up like it does these days. The only people who knew about it were those at the game or newspaper reporters. These days every big decision is on the telly and disected on messageboards like this for days afterwards. Refs are under so much pressure these days they need help, the only answer is using video footage for big decisions.

Edited 22 March, 2010 by Turkish

[saintjay77]

I've not had the benefit of a HD slow motion feed on the Fonté incident but

to me the MKplayer appears to clip his ankle, that's a foul, in the area it's a penalty. From the little I've seen of Saturday's match there could be any number of penalties (under today's rules) for either side because of all the holding and shirt pulling that goes on every time there's a dangerous free kick or corner.I think it was the 2002 WC when refs were told to pay particular attention to shirt pulling and there were so many fouls that in the end they ended up ignoring it most of the time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/2734579.stm

Here's a piece from 2003 where a ref explains himself. On Saturday Dave was continuously on about all the elbowing that was going on, he obviously saw it but the ref either didn't or thought it was 50/50 anyway.From a couple of weeks back on that bad bad penalty I'm sure it was given because Seaborne has his arm across the other blokes throat and was probably holding his shirt to stop him turning. Your average ref is no mug though, just because they can't see it it doesn't mean that they don't know that it's going on.

 

TBF if the ref didnt see something he shouldnt be giving anything either way. If he thinks something happened that he didnt see he should ask the lino that had a better view and make a decission based on that.

 

He saw Seaborne close the attacker down and then he saw through Morgan to see the attacker fall over and guessed it was a foul so gave it.

 

Others have said these decissions usually even themselves out over a season or 2 so everyone just gets on with it. How that ref can then go on to ref a prem game is beyond me though and as is said above, the way ref's are judged by assessors may have a big part to play. Maybe judged by independant football people would work better and have a half way between wthe way it was done and the way its done now?

[benjii]

In the case of Mascherano/Valencia. Whilst Liverpool might have a case, at the end of the day Mascherano was dragging him back having been beaten for pace. If he hadn't have done it there wouldn't have been a penalty, he's only got himself to blame, end of.

 

Exactly - that was the real cheating.

 

Most sports have greater sanctions for that kind of foul. It is completely deliberate and is seeking to gain an advantage. A different category of foul from simply being a bit late with a tackle or being over physical in a header etc..

 

Those sorts of fouls should attract a sin-binning like in rugby and hockey. They are inherently dishonest and deserve greater punishment than a free-kick and a yellow card.

[saintjay77]

A much more interesting question would be:

 

should defenders be allowed to commit cynical and deliberate fouls on players about to enter the penalty area, knowing full well that the only sanction will be a yellow-card?

 

Good for Fonte, good for Valencia.

 

But a club will eventually lose players by picking up too many yellow cards and often its been important players in big games. I think the most synical was Beckams yellow card that got his suspension out of the way while he knew he was injured and about to be laid off for a couple of games.

 

What ever system or rule is in place there will be a way of exploiting it.

 

I think ref's need more help as sometimes the pressure is too much and too often they are spoiling the game for someone or another. It would be nice to see more games where the football effected the game rather than a dodgy decission.

[benjii]

But a club will eventually lose players by picking up too many yellow cards and often its been important players in big games. I think the most synical was Beckams yellow card that got his suspension out of the way while he knew he was injured and about to be laid off for a couple of games.

 

What ever system or rule is in place there will be a way of exploiting it.

 

I think ref's need more help as sometimes the pressure is too much and too often they are spoiling the game for someone or another. It would be nice to see more games where the football effected the game rather than a dodgy decission.

 

I take the point about pikcing up suspensions but that's little help to the team that has been subject to a deliberate foul in the match in question. Obviously they might be lucky enough to be benefitting from the suspension of another player, or they may not.

 

The sanctions system in football is silly. You can accidentally foul someone moving away from goal 17 yards out and at an obscure angle and it costs you a goal.

 

If you do what Mascherano did yesterday and deliberately foul someone, recognising that they are in a dangerous position it costs you a yellow card and a free-kick (unless the ref gets it wrong and gives a penalty).

 

What I would like to see, is a situation where deliberate, cheating fouls outside the box are either punished with some sort of goal scoring chance (a free shot from 18 yards perhaps?) or tougher sanctions on the player committing the foul.

 

The problem football has with that sort of system is that it requires greater discretionary decision making from referees (they have to interpret the foul rather than just award whatever free-kick is prescribed): couple this with the shocking lack of respect exhibited by most players and managers and the televisual microscope and it's difficult to introduce.

 

I would get around this by also introducing video replay facilities so that the ref gets more decisions correct.

[saintjay77]

I take the point about pikcing up suspensions but that's little help to the team that has been subject to a deliberate foul in the match in question. Obviously they might be lucky enough to be benefitting from the suspension of another player, or they may not.

 

The sanctions system in football is silly. You can accidentally foul someone moving away from goal 17 yards out and at an obscure angle and it costs you a goal.

 

If you do what Mascherano did yesterday and deliberately foul someone, recognising that they are in a dangerous position it costs you a yellow card and a free-kick (unless the ref gets it wrong and gives a penalty).

 

What I would like to see, is a situation where deliberate, cheating fouls outside the box are either punished with some sort of goal scoring chance (a free shot from 18 yards perhaps?) or tougher sanctions on the player committing the foul.

 

The problem football has with that sort of system is that it requires greater discretionary decision making from referees (they have to interpret the foul rather than just award whatever free-kick is prescribed): couple this with the shocking lack of respect exhibited by most players and managers and the televisual microscope and it's difficult to introduce.

 

I would get around this by also introducing video replay facilities so that the ref gets more decisions correct.

 

The tough thing is making the decissions at that time. The ref is trying to decide 1st if its a foul, 2nd where it is and 3rd if the player should get a yellow or red card. I am in favour of video replays but I still am not sure of what point the video replays should be used.

 

Goal line incodents? 6 yard box? 18 yard box? 18 yard line right across the pitch? final 3rd of the pitch or all over?

 

Then if its only used in the 18 yard box the replay would have shown that the incodent was out of the box and therefor the replay shouldnt have been used which would start another argument off. Similar arguments could be made for all the option tbh. I dont want technology to take over but would like to find a way it could help the officials get more decissions right and in turn make them better ref's.

 

I agree with harsher punishments for cheating but think the only way that can happen is in retrospec (which often gets done for violent conduct) If a player deliberatly brings down a player outside the box to avoid a penalty (effectivly cheating) then someone should look at it after the game and decide if the ref's punnishment was enough. If not then issue cards or ban's and sit back to watch how many players cut the cheating out. Same goes for dive's.

 

The ref cant be expected to get everything right so some after help in sorting out the cheaters would do the game the world of good.

[chrisobee]

A much more interesting question would be:

 

should defenders be allowed to commit cynical and deliberate fouls on players about to enter the penalty area, knowing full well that the only sanction will be a yellow-card?

 

Good for Fonte, good for Valencia.

 

TBH the only similarities between the 2 incidents are that both players "fell" in the box and both were awarded as penalties. Valencia's was highly dubious ( though I agree 100% with your point about cynical fouls), Fonte's was for me at least totally clear cut and it's only reading this thread put any doubt in my mind. Several re-viewings later fair to say I haven't changed my mind !

[bpsaint]

For me there was a clear foul on Fonte,although he does appear to exaggerate it with the way he goes down. All swings and roundabouts though really,last week against Leeds we had a perfectly good goal disallowed when there was a blatant foul on Fonte,not to mention the penalty he should have been awarded against Tranmere.

[knellster]

I was looking from the side rather than from behind the goal, and nobody will convince me that Fonte didn't dive. I thought it was embarrassing to the extent that I really couldn't celebrate the goal.

 

However, in some cases I feel refs bring the problem of diving on themselves. How many times have we heard commentators say "if he had gone down then the referee would have had a decision to make"? In other words they know (and we have all seen) that the ref won't give a penalty if the player stays on his feet, so is it any wonder that they don't even try to?

[Window Cleaner]

I was looking from the side rather than from behind the goal, and nobody will convince me that Fonte didn't dive. I thought it was embarrassing to the extent that I really couldn't celebrate the goal.

 

However, in some cases I feel refs bring the problem of diving on themselves. How many times have we heard commentators say "if he had gone down then the referee would have had a decision to make"? In other words they know (and we have all seen) that the ref won't give a penalty if the player stays on his feet, so is it any wonder that they don't even try to?

 

Even our commentators do it. The other week Morgan was hacked at but stayed upright and Whispering Dave said he should have gone down and got a penalty.

[Thedelldays]

didnt poor reffing help win our first match of the season..?

 

just had another look at the fonte DIVE...

[RonManager]

didnt poor reffing help win our first match of the season..?

 

just had another look at the fonte DIVE...

 

I had a great view of this and it was identical to the Tranmere incident. In both cases he was kicked on the shin and then relaxed both knees, dropping to the ground. Both, imo, were penalties, but in the 'soft as sh*te' category.

[saintwarwick]

didnt poor reffing help win our first match of the season..?

 

just had another look at the fonte DIVE...

 

I've seen plenty of replays of the incident and although Fonte has gone down easily he was definately caught on the ankle. Right decision by the ref. How many times have poor reffing decisions gone against us this season? It evens itself out over the course of the season.

[macthesaint]

Only recently seen a replay of Swindon's goal.

Charlie Austin looked offside when he received the ball,yet at the game I didnt even consider it.

Did anyone notice that on the night,did our players appeal?

[John B]

I've seen plenty of replays of the incident and although Fonte has gone down easily he was definately caught on the ankle. Right decision by the ref. How many times have poor reffing decisions gone against us this season? It evens itself out over the course of the season.

 

I agree the ref was in a very good position to see what happened

[Professor]

Many people don't care how their team wins as long as they do, and some, such as managers and players simply have financial incentives to win at any cost. If the rules are encouraging cheating, and its hard to detect, maybe its the rules that are wrong. The penalty, virtually a 90%+ certain goal, is a very great a reward for being fouled in the area when all the other effort of both teams over 90 minutes usually produces just a handful of goal chances. Surely its time FIFA thought about changing the law because the behaviour of players has changed beyond recognition in the last 30 years.

[Jesus Reigned]

The Fonte pen looked like a trip to me, and the guy who conceded didn't exactly go off on one did he; says it all so far as I'm concerned.

[VectisSaint]

There is a huge shortage of referees these days, many give up because of the abuse they receive at lower levels. Add to this that now every game has 4 appointed refs, whereas it used to be 3, this means that there is less quality these days and the top level takes the quality there is. In the 3rd division we are refereed by officials who quite frankly 20 years ago would not have made it above Hampshire League level.

 

Why do we need a PL qualified ref to be the 4th official? Its debatable whether this position needs to be a qualified referee at all, at best he (she) needs to be capable of running the line in an emergency.

[Hamilton Saint]

Every mistake at any level is now caught on TV. 25 years ago live football was a rare thing as were highlights so mistakes went largely unnoticed as technology was not about to blow the incidents up like it does these days. The only people who knew about it were those at the game or newspaper reporters. These days every big decision is on the telly and disected on messageboards like this for days afterwards. Refs are under so much pressure these days they need help, the only answer is using video footage for big decisions.

 

Agree with this.

 

There's nothing "wrong" with refs - they're just human beings and will always make mistakes. Some refs, of course, are better than others.

 

Even the best refs can buckle under the intense pressure. And they are not helped by the intense partisanship of players, managers and fans.

 

Now, most refereeing mistakes are not game-changing decisions - except for penalties. This is where TV replays should be used. Refs should have the option of stopping play and consulting with an official who can take a minute to look at the incident again - in slow motion. How many penalty decisions come up in the average game? Would a brief delay for those decisions be so disruptive to the flow of a game?

[thesaint sfc]

It was a penalty.

[St Landrew]

After looking at the re-run of the MK Dons game, Fonte's dive looks just too obvious...

 

I'd rephrase that as...

 

After looking at the re-run of the MK Dons game, the foul on Fonte looks a little bit soft. But a foul all the same. Penalty.

 

Yep, Fonte won that penalty. But the arm-around-the-neck-penalty that wasn't given, is all in the checks and balances. Sadly, we have to resort to this kind of thinkng because there is no allowable video evidence. If you want to stamp out diving and cheats, bring in the cameras. I don't know how many times we have to say the obvious before people understand.

Edited 23 March, 2010 by St Landrew

[sydney_saint]

There is a huge shortage of referees these days, many give up because of the abuse they receive at lower levels. Add to this that now every game has 4 appointed refs, whereas it used to be 3, this means that there is less quality these days and the top level takes the quality there is. In the 3rd division we are refereed by officials who quite frankly 20 years ago would not have made it above Hampshire League level.

 

Why do we need a PL qualified ref to be the 4th official? Its debatable whether this position needs to be a qualified referee at all, at best he (she) needs to be capable of running the line in an emergency.

 

This is something that I have been saying for a long time, that the problem is at grassroots level. A referee who is just 14 will be subjected to an incredible amount of abuse, not just by players but by the arrogant know it all parents watching the game. This causes many young refs to quit after only a couple of seasons. I can speak from experience as I was considered one of the better young refs in NSW, as a 17 year old regular reffing the best 15 year olds in the state and was at the highest level I could be at for my age. I started when I was 14 and after nearly 4 years of abuse, many of which I can't repeat on here, I couldn't be bothered reffing anymore, it just wasn't worth it. My brother has severe bipolar disorder and was reffing under 10's low division to keep himself active. The amount of abuse given to him in one game, under 10's division 4, caused him to have an attack where he spent a month in hospital recovering. This happens with many of the young talented refs. My opinion is that any parent that dishes out abuse on the touchline must be forced to take the course and become a ref, seeing as according to themselves they are so great at it. This goes for many professional matches, those that give abuse from the crowd should also become a ref. The more we have, the more cpmpetiton between the talented refs and hence a better standard in all divisons.