Can you make a judgement next Christmas?

[Legod Third Coming]

On December 31st, Leeds were eight points clear at the top of the league.

 

Milwall were eighth - TWENTY points behind Leeds.

 

So how the hell can we hope to make an assessment of our promotion chances halfway through a season??

[View From The Top]

On December 31st, Leeds were eight points clear at the top of the league.

 

Milwall were eighth - TWENTY points behind Leeds.

 

So how the hell can we hope to make an assessment of our promotion chances halfway through a season??

 

With the squad we've built and will reinforce over the summer and without the burden on -10 and the poor start that elicited, there are no excuses.

 

We have to be there or there abouts by Xmas.

[Legod Third Coming]

With the squad we've built and will reinforce over the summer and without the burden on -10 and the poor start that elicited, there are no excuses.

 

We have to be there or there abouts by Xmas.

 

But if we were eight points clear you would tick the box to say we're on track... just goes to show how wrong you might be.

 

Likewise, you might have fired Kenny Jacket...

 

I believe it says Pardew needs a full season to see how we go, unless we are rooted to the foot of the table.

[SaintRobbie]

But if we were eight points clear you would tick the box to say we're on track... just goes to show how wrong you might be.

 

Likewise, you might have fired Kenny Jacket...

 

I believe it says Pardew needs a full season to see how we go, unless we are rooted to the foot of the table.

 

I believe we need to give AP the 5 years he's looking for and we desperately need some managerial consistency... always has been the most likely way to success IMHO; consistent management.

[madruss]

On December 31st, Leeds were eight points clear at the top of the league.

 

Milwall were eighth - TWENTY points behind Leeds.

 

So how the hell can we hope to make an assessment of our promotion chances halfway through a season??

 

It's a really tricky one that. Leeds were top on merit, and looked like they'd get automatic promotion at a canter, but since the old trafford win they've just bottled it.

 

It's very difficult to predict when a team's going to bottle it or even go on the sort of run that Millwall have gone on. If we're not in the playoffs or out of reach of the automatic places by xmas then questions will have to be asked.

 

It'd be great to have a crystal ball and be able to predict an amazing run of form, but a manager can only be judged on performances and results

[up and away]

But if we were eight points clear you would tick the box to say we're on track... just goes to show how wrong you might be.

 

Likewise, you might have fired Kenny Jacket...

 

I believe it says Pardew needs a full season to see how we go, unless we are rooted to the foot of the table.

 

You can cherry pick any team as am example, means nothing. You can even make a case for Bryan Gunn at Norwich, with so many players to bed in.

 

We have seen the good and the bad, it's going to be relatively easy to see if we have corrected the bad. With that we will soon know if we have what it takes for automatic promotion. This is a **** poor league and one where you can easily buy your way out of with just a mediocre manager. When you can go to any team in this league and buy their star player, that is massive. If this league represents any problems, the CCC will be impossible.

 

Pardew deserves his chance next season, but no need to get silly about it.

[alpine_saint]

On December 31st, Leeds were eight points clear at the top of the league.

 

Milwall were eighth - TWENTY points behind Leeds.

 

So how the hell can we hope to make an assessment of our promotion chances halfway through a season??

 

Oh dear. The wishy-washy indecisiveness starts already - before this season is finished, let alone next season started.

 

Thankfully, I am 100% certain NC will be more decisive.

[alpine_saint]

With the squad we've built and will reinforce over the summer and without the burden on -10 and the poor start that elicited, there are no excuses.

 

We have to be there or there abouts by Xmas.

 

Worth quoting, with the appropriate part highlighted.

[Thedelldays]

I would like to think that after 10 games into the new season..we are up there somewhere...

 

by xmas, sat nicely in the top 2-3...and come easter...look like going up top 2 no issues (like norwich now)

[Saint_clark]

Have to say it's a decent point. I'm not really a fan of swapping manager mid season anyway.

[alpine_saint]

Have to say it's a decent point. I'm not really a fan of swapping manager mid season anyway.

 

I despair at the hand-wringing and lack of ambition that blights this club sometimes.

[Whitey Grandad]

There's always one team that starts off at a gallop and builds an enormous lead in the first part of the season but they always seem to fall back into the chasing pack after Christmas. The time to judge a season is at the its end and not half-way through, IMO.

[Saint_clark]

I despair at the hand-wringing and lack of ambition that blights this club sometimes.

 

So if we're in the top 6 at christmas, say 4 or 5 points off automatic, you think Pardew should be sacked?

If we are midtable then yes, he has to go.

[sadoldgit]

I despair at the hand-wringing and lack of ambition that blights this club sometimes.

 

I know you get off on failure and sacking people, but where exactly by sticking with a manager show lack of ambition? If that was the case then surely the Board should have sacked McMenemy when, not only did he take us down but he failed to get us back up for 3 seasons.

 

We have won a cup and without the -10 we would be in the play off places...no ambition?

 

Utter b*ll*cks.

 

Pardew has show plenty of ambition and if given time will get us promoted. Sacking him next Christmas unless there has been a complete disaster would be stupid.

 

Anyway, given eh season we have had why are we even talking about sacking him FFS???

 

Oh yes, I remember, we beat Charlton yesterday - another "top" club we have turned over, so lets talk about getting shot of Pardew.

 

You couldn't make this up.

[JibMcdo]

Can these arguments not actually wait till next season, when we know how we are getting on? Only this forum can argue about what should happen if something happens before this season as actually happened!

[VectisSaint]

Of course a decision can be made at Christmas. If we are not in the Top 6 or within spitting distance at that point then things will have gone awry and it will be obvious that AP is not the man for the job. At that point we really should be in the Top 2 (really should be top). You have to make decisions at that point before the transfer window, otherwise the opportunity to change things is lost.

 

The 5 year plan requires that we get promoted next season at worst. If we don't look like we are going to achieve that by Christmas then NC should and will act.

 

All that said I am supremely confident that this will not be an issue and that we will be in the Top 2 at Christmas (in fact I would be surprised if we are not top). If we bomb after that like Leeds it wil obviously be a major blow, but even now I still think Leeds wll be in the "nPower are **** League" next season and not League 1.

[sadoldgit]

Can these arguments not actually wait till next season, when we know how we are getting on? Only this forum can argue about what should happen if something happens before this season as actually happened!

 

My sentiments exactly. It should not even be an issue now but there is an element of the fan base who hav itchy fingers and can't wait to see yet another manager go.

 

Doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

[alpine_saint]

Can these arguments not actually wait till next season, when we know how we are getting on? Only this forum can argue about what should happen if something happens before this season as actually happened!

 

I agree, but my opinion on this is already clear.

 

Sadly, it just seems some are trying to "get their excuses in early" for next season.

 

Anyway, its a moot point; NC will give AP until Xmas, and if we are not sitting pretty at the top of the table and are farting around with mid-table mediocrity again, he will be gone.

 

Everyone knows it, inclusing sad-act stalkers who think that the ancient history of what happened with long-gone previous managers bears even a vaguely relevant precidence.

[alpine_saint]

My sentiments exactly. It should not even be an issue now but there is an element of the fan base who hav itchy fingers and can't wait to see yet another manager go.

 

Doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.

 

Utter b*ll*cks.

 

It wasnt any of the faction who you allude to who started this thread, it was a happy clapper trying to make excuses for next season now.

 

I want AP to succeed next season, but if there is even a whiff of failure on the horizon at Xmas, I expect and support NC in doing the logical thing.

[SaintBobby]

The OP is right, of course, that the positions a club is in at Xmas and at the end of the season can change dramatically.

 

I seem to remember one season when Millwall topped their division at Xmas, but ended up being relegated in May.

 

That said, assuming we're in League One next season, it seems to me that the target should be to win the division and accrue about 100 points. If we're falling short of that, we should be disappointed.

 

And if we're falling way short, Pardew is doing something wrong.

[RonManager]

So we're expected to be top of the Championship by next Xmas?:cool:

[alpine_saint]

So we're expected to be top of the Championship by next Xmas?:cool:

 

If we make it to the CCC this season, the bar will be mid-table, imo. NC will not want to risk relegation and starting from square one.

[Legod Third Coming]

Oh dear. The wishy-washy indecisiveness starts already - before this season is finished, let alone next season started.

 

Thankfully, I am 100% certain NC will be more decisive.

 

Er? Decisively firing Kenny Jacket would have been a great move, clearly...

 

As usuall you totally miss the point.

[alpine_saint]

Er? Decisively firing Kenny Jacket would have been a great move, clearly...

 

As usuall you totally miss the point.

 

I get the point precisely.

 

You are arguing in an indirect manner that AP should be given the whole next season, and that we should risk not being promoted again.

 

And I disagree with every atom of my being. We need our owner to see his plan working out as intended, lest he lose interest and walk away.

 

I see no evidence of our inconsistent form being resolved; despite thinking we can still make the playoffs, I expect my hopes to be derailled by a really stupid result against the likes of Yeovil.

 

Oh, and the caution with formation and tactics could really cost us.

[RedAndWhite91]

FACT: If the League started on 1st January, then Leeds would be 19th and Brighton would be 5th.

 

It's loosely related to the OP, but an interesting fact nonetheless.

[Legod Third Coming]

I get the point precisely.

 

You are arguing in an indirect manner that AP should be given the whole next season, and that we should risk not being promoted again.

 

And I disagree with every atom of my being. We need our owner to see his plan working out as intended, lest he lose interest and walk away.

 

I see no evidence of our inconsistent form being resolved; despite thinking we can still make the playoffs, I expect my hopes to be derailled by a really stupid result against the likes of Yeovil.

 

Oh, and the caution with formation and tactics could really cost us.

 

I am arguing that short term assessment - even six months - is no indication of promotion potential.

[alpine_saint]

I am arguing that short term assessment - even six months - is no indication of promotion potential.

 

Good then that by Xmas AP has had nearly 18months...

[Fan The Flames]

Utter b*ll*cks.

 

It wasnt any of the faction who you allude to who started this thread, it was a happy clapper trying to make excuses for next season now.

 

I want AP to succeed next season, but if there is even a whiff of failure on the horizon at Xmas, I expect and support NC in doing the logical thing.

 

This illustrates why you are such a c ock.

[alpine_saint]

This illustrates why you are such a c ock.

 

yes, because derogatory generalising adjectives should only be used in one direction only, shouldnt they ?

 

:rolleyes:

[Legod Third Coming]

Good then that by Xmas AP has had nearly 18months...

 

I have already assessed that he is a good manager. All the evidence says so.

 

The point I was making is that the league table now bears no relation to the table at Christmas. So even six months into the season is no time to be able to tell where the league will end - In December people would have said (and did say) what a great manager Grayson is - much better than Kenny Jacket. Who would have predicted Millwall would gain automatic promotion? No one.

 

I appreciate such things are beyond your comprehension as you feel a ridiculous need to villify and divide at every conceivable opportunity.

 

I have no idea why but there is plenty of help available should you choose to look for it.

[alpine_saint]

I appreciate such things are beyond your comprehension as you feel a ridiculous need to villify and divide at every conceivable opportunity.

 

I have no idea why but there is plenty of help available should you choose to look for it.

 

I dont mind you diverting attention away from your own weaknesses, such as a total lack of ambition....

[John B]

FACT: If the League started on 1st January, then Leeds would be 19th and Brighton would be 5th.

 

It's loosely related to the OP, but an interesting fact nonetheless.

 

In 1973 if Mick Channon had not missed a penalty on Boxing Day v Arsenal we would I think been 4th in Div but in May 1974 we were relegated

[Saint Fan CaM]

Agree with OP actually. I think AP has demonstrated he has the nouse to operate with this team in this league, perhaps with a little strengthening in defence and central midfield in the summer. What if we're 8th (for example) at Xmas with the top slot well within our grasp? That would be way ahead of where we are now and every chance of still going up as Champions.

 

But some like Alpine would have us sack AP at Xmas?!?!? That would be UTTER UTTER barking madness!!!

[CB Fry]

I have already assessed that he is a good manager. All the evidence says so.

 

The point I was making is that the league table now bears no relation to the table at Christmas. So even six months into the season is no time to be able to tell where the league will end - In December people would have said (and did say) what a great manager Grayson is - much better than Kenny Jacket. Who would have predicted Millwall would gain automatic promotion? No one.

 

I appreciate such things are beyond your comprehension as you feel a ridiculous need to villify and divide at every conceivable opportunity.

 

I have no idea why but there is plenty of help available should you choose to look for it.

 

 

Must have been a different Kenny Jackett and a different Millwall that finished fifth last season then.

 

And as you accept - no one expected Millwall to finish top two. So why would the Millwall board sack Jackett for being eighth, perfectly well placed for the playoffs? It's an utterly false premise and bears no relation to our club, our expectations and our resources.

 

And Leeds aren't now eighth weren't ever eighth and aren't going to finish eighth and are currently, err, third, one point off automatic but you've written them off for promotion. If someone else on this forum was saying this about Saints you'd be tearing them off a strip.

 

Jackett was not asked to deliver automatic promotion at the beginning of the season.

 

Grayson was and he was never eighth at Christmas and he's third now. That is a comparison suitable to Saints but you're ignoring that and making out that we are actually more similar to Millwall than Saints.

 

Tiny, teeny, plucky underdog Southampton. Scrimping and scraping a team together with coppers and loose change just like Millwall.

 

This is coming from you of all people, Mr spend-lots-of-money-and-success-will-definitely-follow.

 

But now, success, for you, for a billionaire bankrolled multimillionpound team, is eighth. What a triumph that would be.

Edited 11 April, 2010 by CB Fry

[Singeon Sears]

It's impossible to say at Christmas or any when else in a season what's going to happen next, but based on that a chairman would never make any decisions on anything.

 

I would guess the chairman and manager will sit down and discuss a target be it for mid season or end of season then its relatively simple to know if it’s been met or not. The concept of "we might have a great run, or we might collapse" afterwards cannot really come into the equation, from those making decisions. It’s normally based on facts not crystal balls, unless a calculated risk is taken.

 

I am not concerned anyway, I trust in Pardew, and i also trust in Cortese. Impressed with both of them this season.

[ALWAYS_SFC]

I agree, but my opinion on this is already clear.

 

Sadly, it just seems some are trying to "get their excuses in early" for next season.

 

Anyway, its a moot point; NC will give AP until Xmas, and if we are not sitting pretty at the top of the table and are farting around with mid-table mediocrity again, he will be gone.

 

Everyone knows it, inclusing sad-act stalkers who think that the ancient history of what happened with long-gone previous managers bears even a vaguely relevant precidence.

 

 

And of course you know this to be fact is suppose....????

 

How? because he confides in you perhaps

 

 

Thought not.......just your "expert" opinion...

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Er? Decisively firing Kenny Jacket would have been a great move, clearly...

 

As usuall you totally miss the point.

 

It`s not really him missing the point as he cannot accept other opinions

because it does not fit in with his agenda...

 

Sad but true...

[alpine_saint]

And of course you know this to be fact is suppose....????

 

How? because he confides in you perhaps

 

 

Thought not.......just your "expert" opinion...

 

Denial along with lack of ambition. Tragic..

[ALWAYS_SFC]

Originally Posted by ALWAYS_SFC View Post

And of course you know this to be fact is suppose....????

 

How? because he confides in you perhaps

 

 

Thought not.......just your "expert" opinion...

 

 

Denial along with lack of ambition. Tragic..

 

Err?? lol

 

ffs! How does my post have anything to do with lack of ambition?...It doesn`t

 

All it did was point out you assuming you know how NC will act.

 

All to suit your negative,anti pardew,moaning agenda....

 

And you post it over and over and over again,on and on and on...

[aintforever]

Er? Decisively firing Kenny Jacket would have been a great move, clearly...

 

As usuall you totally miss the point.

 

Kenny Jacket hasn't been spending like the Chelsea of league 1.

 

You're right, we could be 20 points behind at Xmas and still win promotion, but it's about judging the manager on what you have seen and assessing the risks.

 

There have been loads cases where a team performing badly have turned it around when a new manager has been brought in.

[View From The Top]

This illustrates why you are such a c ock.

 

He is so please don't quote him so the rest of us don't have to read it.

[docker-p]

Kenny Jacket hasn't been spending like the Chelsea of league 1.

 

You're right, we could be 20 points behind at Xmas and still win promotion, but it's about judging the manager on what you have seen and assessing the risks.

 

There have been loads cases where a team performing badly have turned it around when a new manager has been brought in.

 

Norwich is one such case. I bet their fans are up in arms about their manager only getting ONE game in the season before being fired.

 

AP has done a reasonable job this season, and i expect next season he will take us up. But, you have to be realistic, and as another poster mentioned, have a little ambition. If we are off the pace come Christmas then change has to be seriously considered. And to be frank, i don't think NC is the dithering type.

[Legod Third Coming]

Must have been a different Kenny Jackett and a different Millwall that finished fifth last season then.

 

And as you accept - no one expected Millwall to finish top two. So why would the Millwall board sack Jackett for being eighth, perfectly well placed for the playoffs? It's an utterly false premise and bears no relation to our club, our expectations and our resources.

 

And Leeds aren't now eighth weren't ever eighth and aren't going to finish eighth and are currently, err, third, one point off automatic but you've written them off for promotion. If someone else on this forum was saying this about Saints you'd be tearing them off a strip.

 

Jackett was not asked to deliver automatic promotion at the beginning of the season.

 

Grayson was and he was never eighth at Christmas and he's third now. That is a comparison suitable to Saints but you're ignoring that and making out that we are actually more similar to Millwall than Saints.

 

Tiny, teeny, plucky underdog Southampton. Scrimping and scraping a team together with coppers and loose change just like Millwall.

 

This is coming from you of all people, Mr spend-lots-of-money-and-success-will-definitely-follow.

 

But now, success, for you, for a billionaire bankrolled multimillionpound team, is eighth. What a triumph that would be.

 

I am not liking us to Millwall at all. I am pointing out that people will see if we are top a Xmas and conclude that Pardew is doing a good job if we are.

 

Which would be a mistake based on this season wouldn't it?

 

So equally, it would be a mistake to assume that if we are not top or in an automatic promotion spot by Xmas that we will not win the league.

 

Personally, I think we will be promoted through the play offs THIS SEASON.

 

Which shows no lack of ambition whatsoever.

 

It is sad that one cannot make a valid observation - including indisputable facts - on this forum without it resorting to the type of total cobblers perhaps I should have expected...

 

Shame we could have had a discussion about football and momentum and when one can judge how effective/successful a manager is...hey ho at least the Masters is on.

[Legod Third Coming]

Norwich is one such case. I bet their fans are up in arms about their manager only getting ONE game in the season before being fired.

 

AP has done a reasonable job this season, and i expect next season he will take us up. But, you have to be realistic, and as another poster mentioned, have a little ambition. If we are off the pace come Christmas then change has to be seriously considered. And to be frank, i don't think NC is the dithering type.

 

Define 'off the pace'? Where do you think it is/will be acceptable to be?

[brmbrm]

I want AP to succeed next season.

 

But you want him to fail this season, you miserable t w@???????????????

 

We still have an outiside chance of a semi-miracuous play-off spot and you just want to slag the manger and team off all the fArkin time.

 

You are on my ignore list you miserable F uk cer

[CB Fry]

I am not liking us to Millwall at all. I am pointing out that people will see if we are top a Xmas and conclude that Pardew is doing a good job if we are.

Which would be a mistake based on this season wouldn't it?

 

So equally, it would be a mistake to assume that if we are not top or in an automatic promotion spot by Xmas that we will not win the league.

 

Personally, I think we will be promoted through the play offs THIS SEASON.

 

Which shows no lack of ambition whatsoever.

 

It is sad that one cannot make a valid observation - including indisputable facts - on this forum without it resorting to the type of total cobblers perhaps I should have expected...

 

Shame we could have had a discussion about football and momentum and when one can judge how effective/successful a manager is...hey ho at least the Masters is on.

 

Why would it be a mistake based on this season?

 

Leeds are third, one point off automatic promotion and I'd stay still very, very likely to be promoted automatically.

 

Leeds aren't eighth and they've been nowhere near eighth.

 

They've been challenging for automatic promotion every single week of the season, including this week. An indisputable fact.

 

As I said in the previous post, if Saints were in that position and people were completely writing off our chances of automatic promotion you'd be going ballistic.

 

 

Leeds being one point off automatic promotion is another indisputable fact in my opinion. Look at the table.

 

Kenny Jackett was doing a good job at Christmas and he is doing a great job now, again indisputable facts.

 

It's just a myth that Kenny Jackett was being dragged through the streets of Deptford as some monumental failure because Millwall were eighth at Christmas.

 

He was doing a great job and no one wanted him sacked.

 

 

 

But if we are eighth at Christmas next season it is categorically not the same as Millwall being eighth at Christmas.

 

It would be more like Chelsea being eighth at Christmas, or Leeds being eighth at Christmas this season.

 

Which, funnily enough, they weren't.

 

Much like Leicester weren't eighth in L1 last season's Christmas. They were in and around the top two.

 

And Forest weren't eighth in L1 the Christmas before. They were in and around the top two.

 

Because that's where clubs trying to get promoted need to be at Christmas. Not plan to be god-awful for half a season then hope to make some late charge.

 

But hey, we don't want to compare ourselves to big, rich, well supported clubs like Forest and Leicester. We're nothing like them.

 

We're teeny tiny pauper underdog Southampton. Just like Millwall.

Edited 11 April, 2010 by CB Fry

[saintwarwick]

Kenny Jacket hasn't been spending like the Chelsea of league 1.

 

You're right, we could be 20 points behind at Xmas and still win promotion, but it's about judging the manager on what you have seen and assessing the risks.

 

There have been loads cases where a team performing badly have turned it around when a new manager has been brought in.

 

The reverse has also been true where a new manager has been brought in but fortunes have not changed, in fact have got worse.

[alpine_saint]

But you want him to fail this season, you miserable t w@???????????????

 

We still have an outiside chance of a semi-miracuous play-off spot and you just want to slag the manger and team off all the fArkin time.

 

You are on my ignore list you miserable F uk cer

 

Absolutely ridiculous post. Really pathetic.

 

Where have I said I dont want to reach the playoffs this season ? I am one of those who think we still have a chance, and am therefore one of those most frustrated by a w*nk performance.

 

Oh, and I am just completely destroyed at being on this sad individuals ignore list....

[JustMike]

I despair at the hand-wringing and lack of ambition that blights this club sometimes.

 

no, you much prefer having moaning at every point dropped and want a new manager each week

 

The whole "give AP until xmas" bit, from my point of view was to then judge / comment on his performance since he took over, not just Aug 2010 - Dec 2010. In otherwords, giving him 18 mths, which, afterall is what he was told (according to AP some time ago).

[sadoldgit]

Absolutely ridiculous post. Really pathetic.

 

Where have I said I dont want to reach the playoffs this season ? I am one of those who think we still have a chance, and am therefore one of those most frustrated by a w*nk performance.

 

Oh, and I am just completely destroyed at being on this sad individuals ignore list....

 

Still no support for the manager again I see. What constitutes a "whiff of failure" in your book? Not winning every game?

 

We won again on Saturday you know. We beat Charlton. One of the better sides in this league. Still you carry on having wet dreams about Kenny Jacket.

 

The sad thing is Alpine, it doesn't matter who manages us, you will always find fault with them becase that is your way.

 

Oh by the way. MLT thinks we have the best manager in our division. You might want to start slagging him off too.

 

p.s. We won a trophy at Wembley and are still within a shout of the play offs (which is where we would be without the minus 10) but do feel free to carry on your pathetic agenda about a "lack of ambition".....