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The start of the decline...


SW11_Saint

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I am sure this has been done before, but I'm bored, it's Sunday and I fancy stimulating some debate...

 

My question is this: What single event or action signalled the start of our demise, or sealed our fate in your view? (e.g. could be WGS leaving, Boardroom changes, lack of investment after the cup final, the final whistle after the Man Utd game etc.)

 

For me it's absolutely clear - the appointment of Steve Wigley.

 

Not that I'm heaping all the blame on him - in fact I don't hold anything against Steve at all, if anything he was just an innocent victim of circumstance. But when we appointed him, we still had ample time to turn things around, we had a run of 14 emminently winnable games (I think we one one of them), and we still had a half decent squad. If Lowe had of made a sensible appointment then, I am convinced we'd have a decent chance of being in the Premier League still.

 

From the moment I heard that we'd appointed him (and I will always remember it as I was on a business trip in Germany and had to be convinced by a mate that it wasn't a wind up - given we'd been through this once with Stuart Gray). I sat back and though, "that's it, we're f*cked". And so it proved.

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For me it's absolutely clear - the appointment of Steve Wigley.

 

For me it was one event before and that was sacking Paul Sturrock. His team put in two of the best Saints away performances I have ever seen at Wolves and Man City. The guy had potential and had the board backed him instead of individual personalities on the playing staff then there would have been No Wigley, no Red**** and possibly no relegation!

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For me it was one event before and that was sacking Paul Sturrock. His team put in two of the best Saints away performances I have ever seen at Wolves and Man City. The guy had potential and had the board backed him instead of individual personalities on the playing staff then there would have been No Wigley, no Red**** and possibly no relegation!

 

Spot on there. Happy memories of those 2 away days. Plus the home games v Newcastle/Liverpool with an inexperienced side playing exciting football.

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For me it's absolutely clear - the appointment of Steve Wigley.

 

For me it was one event before and that was sacking Paul Sturrock. His team put in two of the best Saints away performances I have ever seen at Wolves and Man City. The guy had potential and had the board backed him instead of individual personalities on the playing staff then there would have been No Wigley, no Red**** and possibly no relegation!

 

Can't argue with any of these choices. I was extremely vocal, as I have never been since, against the appointment of Steve Wigley. I couldn't believe the stupidity of his promotion, and Lowe's lame reasons for doing so. Nothing against SW at all, he was like a rabbit caught in the headlights. Rupert's total ignorance of what was required was incredibly revealing though. Once again, it was SFC falling foul to the cheap option. They had done just that in Paul Sturrock, but he was getting some excellent performances from the players. The games mentioned before at Eastlands and Molineux, were amongst the best away performances I've seen from a modern Saints team. Although I opposed his appointment, I realised Sturrock knew what he was doing. His appointment may have lacked ambition, but his sacking was a terrible decision.

 

I would also add the injury to Michael Svensson as well. It's entirely possible we may have still been a well-run-Premiership-club, as everyone kept calling us, if Svensson hadn't become badly injured. Certainly, these 3 incidents were the key factors, for me.

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God is to blame.

 

If he hadn't invented the planet then Sturrock wouldn't have been sacked and Wigley wouldn't have been appointed.

 

That said, even if this planet hadn't been invented I'm convinced there would still be a Southampton centre back getting terminally injured on some other planet or parallel universe. Such events are impervious to divine intervention.

 

So, it's either God or Svennson to blame. One of the two anyway.

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I'd agree with the first suggestion,the appointment of Wigley and Lowe persevering with him when it was so obvious he was not- and never would be - up to the job.

 

Previous contributory events are possibly the failure to appoint Hoddle when WGS left,and the decision to sack Sturrock.However on both counts alternative options were available.By the time Wartface was installed and given his chance Lowe really had taken us too far up a blind alley.

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It either has to be the failure to support Strrock in his battles with the prima donnas and stirrers in the squad, or the crass appointment of Wigley.

 

I don't buy into the idea that the Club suffered from the minute Lowe turned up. Although I have issues with the part played by some of those in the wings around the time of the reverse takeover, Lowe himself performed OK in his early to middle part of his reign. Like any Chairman he made mistakes, but he also made some good calls. His troubles began when his ego took over and when he failed to learn from his earlier errors.

 

So on balance I would have to go for the ludicrous appointment of Wigley, as once we had sacked Sturrock there was no reason for us to appoint Wigley.

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I am sure this has been done before, but I'm bored, it's Sunday and I fancy stimulating some debate...

 

My question is this: What single event or action signalled the start of our demise, or sealed our fate in your view? (e.g. could be WGS leaving, Boardroom changes, lack of investment after the cup final, the final whistle after the Man Utd game etc.)

 

For me it's absolutely clear - the appointment of Steve Wigley.

 

Not that I'm heaping all the blame on him - in fact I don't hold anything against Steve at all, if anything he was just an innocent victim of circumstance. But when we appointed him, we still had ample time to turn things around, we had a run of 14 emminently winnable games (I think we one one of them), and we still had a half decent squad. If Lowe had of made a sensible appointment then, I am convinced we'd have a decent chance of being in the Premier League still.

 

From the moment I heard that we'd appointed him (and I will always remember it as I was on a business trip in Germany and had to be convinced by a mate that it wasn't a wind up - given we'd been through this once with Stuart Gray). I sat back and though, "that's it, we're f*cked". And so it proved.

 

Totally agree, from the moment I heard the news that Wigley had been apointed "head coach" until the end of the season, I thought we are f....d. With No trial period to see if he was actually up to the job.

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The reverse takeover, without a shadow of a doubt. IMO, the most immoral and unethical chapter in our history, from which our decline and fall commenced and from which our current position has been attained.

 

Provided you ignore the 2003 Cup run and getting into Europe. The reverse takeover may not have been the proudest moment for SFC, but neither was it the moment that consigned us to the bottom of the second tier - after all that was 1997, some eight years before we went down.

 

For my money, the moment the decline started was Strachan's leaving - or rather when he told the players (around Christmas 2003 I seem to recall, bearing in mind they knew a couple of months before it was made public) that he wouldn't be staying. We were in a Champions' League spot at the time, having just put three past Portsmouth at St Mary's.

 

However IMHO the tipping point was the removal of Sturrock/appointment of Wigley.

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Guest Hacienda
For me it was one event before and that was sacking Paul Sturrock. His team put in two of the best Saints away performances I have ever seen at Wolves and Man City. The guy had potential and had the board backed him instead of individual personalities on the playing staff then there would have been No Wigley, no Red**** and possibly no relegation!

 

Correct.

 

The mongs who say he wasn't up to it clearly weren't at those two games.

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IMHO where the decline started is immaterial

 

All that matters is WHEN it will stop.

 

Because it cannot go on much longer that's for damned sure

 

Well it could. It just must not.

 

Otherwise we're staring at a very bleak future for SFC. And I see nobody on the horizon waiting to flash the huge wads of cash, even when there is a serious bargain to be picked up. They've all had plenty of time to come out of the woodwork up until now, and there's been no serious contender.

 

Sadly, I'm including the Merrington/Armstrong fronted contingent also as, I believe, they have no real money to splash around to make us significantly stronger than anyone else.

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Correct.

 

The mongs who say he wasn't up to it clearly weren't at those two games.

 

agreed the best two away days for years.

But i also agree with Toomer something went wrong after Cardiff, i am not sure who was to blame but we wasted money on squad players without improving the quality of the starting 11.

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Saturday 17th May 2.59.59 pm

 

When 1 sec before fa cup kick off RL still hadn't offered WGS the full backing of board with club cheque book & life time contract allowing WGS to fill in his own wage

 

saints celebrated that day as if we had been crowned intergallactic champs not fa cup runners up it was a case of " in WGS we trust "

 

then when bridge left not signing paul koncseski (cant spell) charlton lb at time 3rd choice england lb

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I am sure this has been done before, but I'm bored, it's Sunday and I fancy stimulating some debate...

 

My question is this: What single event or action signalled the start of our demise, or sealed our fate in your view? (e.g. could be WGS leaving, Boardroom changes, lack of investment after the cup final, the final whistle after the Man Utd game etc.)

 

For me it's absolutely clear - the appointment of Steve Wigley.

 

Not that I'm heaping all the blame on him - in fact I don't hold anything against Steve at all, if anything he was just an innocent victim of circumstance. But when we appointed him, we still had ample time to turn things around, we had a run of 14 emminently winnable games (I think we one one of them), and we still had a half decent squad. If Lowe had of made a sensible appointment then, I am convinced we'd have a decent chance of being in the Premier League still.

 

From the moment I heard that we'd appointed him (and I will always remember it as I was on a business trip in Germany and had to be convinced by a mate that it wasn't a wind up - given we'd been through this once with Stuart Gray). I sat back and though, "that's it, we're f*cked". And so it proved.

 

No - you have to look slighty bigger and target the man who appointed him.

 

There is no doubt in shareholders, fans and boardrom eyes - as well as former stars of this once great club - the sole blame (ongoing) for the plight of our club is:

 

RUPERT LOWE AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE PLC.

 

Fact.

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Guest Hacienda
agreed the best two away days for years.

But i also agree with Toomer something went wrong after Cardiff, i am not sure who was to blame but we wasted money on squad players without improving the quality of the starting 11.

 

I'd I wouldn't argue with that. However, the decline from the WGS days turned into a full scale collapse with the sacking of PS and the appointment of SW.

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I'd I wouldn't argue with that. However, the decline from the WGS days turned into a full scale collapse with the sacking of PS and the appointment of SW.

 

problem is the rot had set in, the principle of buying aquad rather than starters had been established and from point on ever decision was taken for shortterm financial gain rather than long term football gains.

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No - you have to look slighty bigger and target the man who appointed him.

 

There is no doubt in shareholders, fans and boardrom eyes - as well as former stars of this once great club - the sole blame (ongoing) for the plight of our club is:

 

RUPERT LOWE AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE PLC.

 

IMO.

 

There, I've corrected it for you.

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For me it was one event before and that was sacking Paul Sturrock. His team put in two of the best Saints away performances I have ever seen at Wolves and Man City. The guy had potential and had the board backed him instead of individual personalities on the playing staff then there would have been No Wigley, no Red**** and possibly no relegation!

 

Fully agree with this.

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agreed the best two away days for years.

But i also agree with Toomer something went wrong after Cardiff, i am not sure who was to blame but we wasted money on squad players without improving the quality of the starting 11.

 

I agree that after the 2003 Cup final we had something to build on.It was a golden opportunity that was criminally allowed to slip away.

 

However I think that there was also something afoot within the club during that time and before Cardiff,which understandably the cup run papered over.

 

In hindsightI feel there were two matches which were pivotal in our slip away from an exciting stylish and attacking team under WGS.Boro away,when we lost a 2-0 lead to draw 2-2.After that match I sensed WGS lost the confidence to attack as we had done before,and we became more cautious.Then the 6-1 defeat at Highbury which left a phsycological scar on all those involved,even on cup final day.From that point on the team seemed to look at fixtures as just trying not to lose too heavily especially away from home.

 

Had WGS been given the chance to rebuild his squad in the summer of 2003 I expect he would have refound his enthusiam for the job again,but of course he wasn't.

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It started the moment we sold Wayne Bridge

 

If I am not permitted to say when Askham sold up to get his filthy lucre, turn us into a PLC and bring Lowe, then I would have to say this too.

 

We were at a massive cross-roads, riding high, getting media attention, and Lowe did this. And its been downhill ever since.

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The reverse takeover, without a shadow of a doubt. IMO, the most immoral and unethical chapter in our history, from which our decline and fall commenced and from which our current position has been attained.

 

No - you have to look slighty bigger and target the man who appointed him.

 

There is no doubt in shareholders, fans and boardrom eyes - as well as former stars of this once great club - the sole blame (ongoing) for the plight of our club is:

 

RUPERT LOWE AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE PLC.

 

Fact.

 

 

When are you dribblers going to give it a bleedin' rest?

 

We had season after season of steady improvement after 1997 when we turned from perennial relegation fodder (remember the gag about "struggling Southampton" that Dave Jones made on his appointment) to solid, solid, solid mid table, with an FA Cup final shaped cherry on top.

 

All that, was during the evil old PLC.

 

Love the way that people describe finishing eighth in the table as a "our decline". :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

Yes, we got relegated. Boo hoo. Who hasn't been?

 

We're not immune to relegation, children, never were, never have been (even before our "decline" when we dominated British football like a collosus in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 and 1995) and never will be.

 

Get the **** over it.

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When are you dribblers going to give it a bleedin' rest?

 

We had season after season of steady improvement after 1997 when we turned from perennial relegation fodder (remember the gag about "struggling Southampton" that Dave Jones made on his appointment) to solid, solid, solid mid table, with an FA Cup final shaped cherry on top.

 

All that, was during the evil old PLC.

 

Love the way that people describe finishing eighth in the table as a "our decline". :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

Yes, we got relegated. Boo hoo. Who hasn't been?

 

We're not immune to relegation, children, never were, never have been (even before our "decline" when we dominated British football like a collosus in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 and 1995) and never will be.

 

Get the **** over it.

 

Rather than sneer like an arrorgant tosspot, how about offering an opinion as to where you think it started ?

 

After all, we had been doing the tight-rope walking act you infer for so long, someevent must have caused the loss of balance that caused the club to fall...:rolleyes:

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I don't disagree with most of these but here's a new one.

 

The daft decision to reduce players's pay by 50% once we were relegated. Our best chance of getting back up into the Premiership was in our first season down. Birmingham City have written the textbook on this one. What you need to do is to keep your squad together, strngthen one or two positions and then move back up. What did we do? We implemented this paycut and caused so many players to want to leave that there was no way that we had the teamspirit, the skill or the desire to get back up. By the end of the January transfer window that season we were back to square one and stood no chance of getting back up at the first attempt.

 

Who implemeted this strategy .... guess who? Why ? To ensure that we did not suffer financially from relegation. Well that worked well didn't it.

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I don't disagree with most of these but here's a new one.

 

The daft decision to reduce players's pay by 50% once we were relegated. Our best chance of getting back up into the Premiership was in our first season down. Birmingham City have written the textbook on this one. What you need to do is to keep your squad together, strngthen one or two positions and then move back up. What did we do? We implemented this paycut and caused so many players to want to leave that there was no way that we had the teamspirit, the skill or the desire to get back up. By the end of the January transfer window that season we were back to square one and stood no chance of getting back up at the first attempt.

 

Who implemeted this strategy .... guess who? Why ? To ensure that we did not suffer financially from relegation. Well that worked well didn't it.

 

And what happened to the "War Chest" Lowe so often waffled on about?

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If I am not permitted to say when Askham sold up to get his filthy lucre, turn us into a PLC and bring Lowe, then I would have to say this too.

 

We were at a massive cross-roads, riding high, getting media attention, and Lowe did this. And its been downhill ever since.

 

Here is a few comparisons for you based on the nine years pre Lowe and the nine years post Lowe:

 

Pre: 12th, 13th, 7th, 14th, 16th, 18th, 18th, 10th, 17th.

Post: 16th, 12th, 17th, 15th, 10th, 11th, 8th, 12th, relegation.

 

Our last four years before relegation we had an average position of 10th place (including a cup final) whereas the last four years before Lowe took over we had an average position of 16th place. Riding high yes but under Lowe, downhill yes but only since relegation.

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I don't disagree with most of these but here's a new one.

 

The daft decision to reduce players's pay by 50% once we were relegated. Our best chance of getting back up into the Premiership was in our first season down. Birmingham City have written the textbook on this one. What you need to do is to keep your squad together, strngthen one or two positions and then move back up. What did we do? We implemented this paycut and caused so many players to want to leave that there was no way that we had the teamspirit, the skill or the desire to get back up. By the end of the January transfer window that season we were back to square one and stood no chance of getting back up at the first attempt.

 

Who implemeted this strategy .... guess who? Why ? To ensure that we did not suffer financially from relegation. Well that worked well didn't it.

 

It wasn't Lowe that sanctioned the spending spree that ultimately led us to the financial crisis we are now facing. Remember he was replaced by the Wilkde bunch who went on the spending spree.

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It wasn't Lowe that sanctioned the spending spree that ultimately led us to the financial crisis we are now facing. Remember he was replaced by the Wilkde bunch who went on the spending spree.

 

In the first season under Wilde and co wages and other costs were reduced and our net debt was lowered to a position it hadn't been for years. The following seasons overspend by Hone & co was stupid, but if you think the reason we are in this financial crisis is because of that period, then you are seriously deluded.

 

You're blaming all our problems on a one off overspend of a few million (which certainly didn't help matters), but conveniently ignoring the calamatous effects of relegation and failure to get repromoted that turned this Club upside down (as it has done to many other clubs around the country).

 

The crisis comes about from having income of about £13m and a structure that can't run on that level of income. Despite making cuts, Lowe and Wilde are still running us at a very big loss.

 

What do you think Lowe's Plan B was all about, and why would we have to implement it?

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The Sturrock incident is an interesting one and I agree that, with the non-reappointment of Hoddle, it led to our demise.

 

That said what would you have done with the Sturrock situation? We didn't want to lose Beattie and he was one of the instigators I understand. If it had just been Dodd I think Lowe would have told him to jog on, but when your fans favorite, top scoring, multi million pound asset kicks up a stink, it is a difficult call.

 

We could easily be having the "why did Lowe let Beattie leave over Sturrock" discussion instead!

 

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't I'm afraid.

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