KelvinsRightGlove Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25628806 Good on him, can't be easy to come out as gay in professional football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 No surprising, BBC gives it main news for coming out as a gay. Who cares, stop biggin it up every time someone comes out then it won't be such an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 8 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 8 January, 2014 No surprising, BBC gives it main news for coming out as a gay. Who cares, stop biggin it up every time someone comes out then it won't be such an issue. It's a shame he had to wait til he retired before he felt he could admit it. That's the problem. The more people that talk about it, the less of an issue it becomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 Good for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 CHDAJFU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 CHDAJFU? We refused to wear the laces, we're anti-gay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 8 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 8 January, 2014 We refused to wear the laces, we're anti-gay. He's also retired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 He is quite high profile, so maybe this will be the catalyst for more admissions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 No surprising, BBC gives it main news for coming out as a gay. Who cares, stop biggin it up every time someone comes out then it won't be such an issue. This. No big deal, who cares, is my reaction. It's just a pity that the media treat it as a big deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 8 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 8 January, 2014 Is and isn't news. No-one really cares, or no-one with any sense, but at the same time it is important because it's been so rare for anyone to come out. So no, not important he's gay, but is important that people feel they can come out. Hopefully in time they won't have to as no-one will care either way. I mean no-one seems to mind the general footballer penchant for vacuous blonde simpletons with orange skin. Shame it's when he's retired though. Also a shame he's had to retire, didn't realise, good player and still young. Agree entirely with all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Jeff Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 It's a shame he had to wait til he retired before he felt he could admit it. That's the problem. The more people that talk about it, the less of an issue it becomes. This. Glad to hear he is now comfortable to come out, but he would have helped more if he'd done it whilst still playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 I followed the link on the bbc website and am now reading the stuff on there bout Justin Fashanu. I feel a bit mis-sold bout Justin Fashanu! I understood he killed himself cos of terrace abuses + that everyone should feel guilty, but it turns out he was age 37 + retired + and on the run from police for sucking off unconscious teenagers. Many congratulations to Hitzburger tho! He will be swimming in cock after this high profile announcement! I very much hope we have lots of prem players come out in support of this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 This. Glad to hear he is now comfortable to come out, but he would have helped more if he'd done it whilst still playing. Can you imagine the 'banter' he would have received from 'fans' if he was still playing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 Can you imagine the 'banter' he would have received from 'fans' if he was still playing? Until a current player comes out then all we'll be able to do is "imagine". Maybe it won't be as bad as you imagine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 Is and isn't news. No-one really cares, or no-one with any sense, but at the same time it is important because it's been so rare for anyone to come out. So no, not important he's gay, but is important that people feel they can come out. Hopefully in time they won't have to as no-one will care either way. I mean no-one seems to mind the general footballer penchant for vacuous blonde simpletons with orange skin. Shame it's when he's retired though. Also a shame he's had to retire, didn't realise, good player and still young. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 Can you imagine the 'banter' he would have received from 'fans' if he was still playing? I’m not naïve enough to think this definitely would not happen, but I wonder how much it would happen, and for how long. Unfortunately, I’m old enough to remember a time when racism within football was fairly widespread, but whilst there are certainly still racists in every football ground, they are very much in the minority. Nowadays, if someone tried to start a racist chant etc, not only would they be breaking the law, they would also incur the wrath of their fellow supporters – at least I like to think they would. Hopefully, the same would apply if someone tried to start a homophobic chant etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 8 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 8 January, 2014 I’m not naïve enough to think this definitely would not happen, but I wonder how much it would happen, and for how long. Unfortunately, I’m old enough to remember a time when racism within football was fairly widespread, but whilst there are certainly still racists in every football ground, they are very much in the minority. Nowadays, if someone tried to start a racist chant etc, not only would they be breaking the law, they would also incur the wrath of their fellow supporters – at least I like to think they would. Hopefully, the same would apply if someone tried to start a homophobic chant etc. I don't think we are quite there yet, but hopefully moving towards that. It was before my time, but I'm told there was a time when monkey chants were pretty common. Simply couldn't imagine many people getting involved in that now. It will, unfortunately, take time. And more brave people who will have to be prepared to put their heads above the parapet and probably take some flack for it. But the more people that follow Hitzlsperger's lead, the better it gets. Especially if they can do it whilst still playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 Can you imagine the 'banter' he would have received from 'fans' if he was still playing? Which, considering people now get arrested for chanting "we can see you holding hands" even when there are no openly gay people present, wouldn't have lasted very long, if indeed it started. Several things here. First and foremost does anyone really care? Why do gays feel they need to announce it? Reasonably good ex footballer says he's gay. Wow, who cares? Secondly i see twitter is alive with people congratulating him on "being brave" i dont subscribe to this view. Coming out when you've retired isnt brave, he wont have to endure the "banter" as BTF calls it from the terraces. Does this not send out a message to any gay footballers that they should wait until their careers are over before coming out? Surely the brave thing to do would have been to come out, if he felt the need to, whilst he was still playing. Surely that would then send a message out to young gay footballers that they can do the same too. Thirdly, what's wrong with a bit of "banter"? I've worked and played (football) with gay people in the past and they've been given and given it back, but no more and nothing less playful and harmless than when one of your mates nails a munter or if you're fat, bald, ugly, ginger, hairy. If you cant handle having the p*ss taken out of you then i would suggest a male dominated environment isnt the place for you and rather than crying about it do something else with your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 No surprising, BBC gives it main news for coming out as a gay. Who cares, stop biggin it up every time someone comes out then it won't be such an issue. My sentiments entirely dont think he is a player any more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 8 January, 2014 Share Posted 8 January, 2014 Which, considering people now get arrested for chanting "we can see you holding hands" even when there are no openly gay people present, wouldn't have lasted very long, if indeed it started. Several things here. First and foremost does anyone really care? Why do gays feel they need to announce it? Reasonably good ex footballer says he's gay. Wow, who cares? Secondly i see twitter is alive with people congratulating him on "being brave" i dont subscribe to this view. Coming out when you've retired isnt brave, he wont have to endure the "banter" as BTF calls it from the terraces. Does this not send out a message to any gay footballers that they should wait until their careers are over before coming out? Surely the brave thing to do would have been to come out, if he felt the need to, whilst he was still playing. Surely that would then send a message out to young gay footballers that they can do the same too. Thirdly, what's wrong with a bit of "banter"? I've worked and played (football) with gay people in the past and they've been given and given it back, but no more and nothing less playful and harmless than when one of your mates nails a munter or if you're fat, bald, ugly, ginger, hairy. If you cant handle having the p*ss taken out of you then i would suggest a male dominated environment isnt the place for you and rather than crying about it do something else with your life. I sort of agree with this. Banter gets a bad press, and yes there are an awefull lot of people that go over the line with it in the name of banter (some of it is pure abuse and should be punished) there is also the other side where the overly PC and prudish live. Examples are those that actively complain about TV shows and radio shows they dont even watch or didnt even hear. Just dont watch it ! Theres a lot I dont agree with, as funny as it probably is I dont agree with the undateables program, many do, I just dont watch it simples. As for the gay debate, we should live in a society now within which it is accepted and there isnt a need to have a front page splash everytime it happens. Its not news ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25660495 John Amaechi: Football 'toxic' for gay people and minorities Football is toxic and not just for gay people - it's toxic for Asians who want to play the game, it's toxic for women who want to be executives, it's toxic for black people who want to do anything but play. It's toxic in many different ways, but football doesn't see itself like that. What a load of b*llocks. Football's decision to stay in the dark ages - in terms of women in boardrooms, black people in management or executive positions and gay people anywhere - is just a statement that they don't want the very best people. Sorry, didn't realise that we made a decision and announced we wanted no women in boardrooms, black people in management or any gays in our game. I also didn't realise that the very best people ONLY came from those demographics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 Only wish there were more players with an intelligence like the said player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 What a load of nonsense. There is an obsession with getting black players to be managers and to be honest it's a load of horsesh*t. One look at the England squad for the 1998 world cup show how the ones whinging about football being toxic and anti black manager is boll(cks. I've chosen the 1998 world cup squad because most of the players there have retired now and are at management age. There were 4 black players in that squad. Sol Campbell, Les Ferdinand, Rio Ferdinand and Paul Ince. Of those 4 Paul Ince has managed in the premier league and has failed as a manager. Les Ferdinand is currently a premier league coach at Tottenham, Rio Ferdinand is the only member of the squad still playing. So as a percentage 50% of the black players have gone into management and coaching, both of them have been or are currently in the premier league and one is still playing. Of the 18 white players only Tony Adams, Gareth Southgate and Alan Shearer for a very short time have managed, none with any success. I believe Tim Flowers is a goalkeeping coach somewhere and Gary Neville is a pundit and a coach. So as a percentage only 27% of white players from that England squad have been involved in coaching or management. Why isn't there campaign to get reformed junkie & alcoholic players like Paul Merson into management? Why isn't there a clamour to get crocked ex players like Darren Anderton into management? It's a disgrace there isn't any currently managing in the premier league. Simple fact is there are a lot fewer black players currently of managerial age than there are white players. Therefore you're going to have fewer black managers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 What a load of nonsense. There is an obsession with getting black players to be managers and to be honest it's a load of horsesh*t. One look at the England squad for the 1998 world cup show how the ones whinging about football being toxic and anti black manager is boll(cks. I've chosen the 1998 world cup squad because most of the players there have retired now and are at management age. There were 4 black players in that squad. Sol Campbell, Les Ferdinand, Rio Ferdinand and Paul Ince. Of those 4 Paul Ince has managed in the premier league and has failed as a manager. Les Ferdinand is currently a premier league coach at Tottenham, Rio Ferdinand is the only member of the squad still playing. So as a percentage 50% of the black players have gone into management and coaching, both of them have been or are currently in the premier league and one is still playing. Of the 18 white players only Tony Adams, Gareth Southgate and Alan Shearer for a very short time have managed, none with any success. I believe Tim Flowers is a goalkeeping coach somewhere and Gary Neville is a pundit and a coach. So as a percentage only 27% of white players from that England squad have been involved in coaching or management. Why isn't there campaign to get reformed junkie & alcoholic players like Paul Merson into management? Why isn't there a clamour to get crocked ex players like Darren Anderton into management? It's a disgrace there isn't any currently managing in the premier league. Simple fact is there are a lot fewer black players currently of managerial age than there are white players. Therefore you're going to have fewer black managers. Paul Merson was in management and was utter utter gash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 Paul Merson was in management and was utter utter gash. Oh yeah he wasn't wasn't he, Wallsall, got them relegated and then sacked with them in the drop zone the season after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 Oh yeah he wasn't wasn't he, Wallsall, got them relegated and then sacked with them in the drop zone the season after. Political correctness will get people hired and then fired, its the crazy self loathing World we live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 9 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 9 January, 2014 An interesting take on the issue from Graeme Le Saux here: http://reflectionsasia.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/graeme-le-saux-how-gay-slurs-almost-wrecked-my-career/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesaint sfc Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 I'd find it very difficult to come out if I was a footballer. The amount of racist abuse you still hear being chanted - and you can't hide being an ethnic minority! If you come out and then have to suffer homophobic chants every game I wouldn't much fancy it as a career. It would be great if everyone came out together and then it would be near on impossible to single people out but lets face it - that's not going to happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrensup Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 Is odd there aren't more black managers I know that roughly 4% of the population in England is black, I'd you ratio that, 4% of 92 is 3.7 ish So, Ince, Powell and Hughton makes 3 managers so looking at it in terms of the general population, football is 0.7 of a manager away from being proportional with the population! So ain't that bad if you look at it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 9 January, 2014 Author Share Posted 9 January, 2014 I know that roughly 4% of the population in England is black, I'd you ratio that, 4% of 92 is 3.7 ish So, Ince, Powell and Hughton makes 3 managers so looking at it in terms of the general population, football is 0.7 of a manager away from being proportional with the population! So ain't that bad if you look at it that way. I'd imagine the % of footballers that are black is probably a bit higher though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 I'd find it very difficult to come out if I was a footballer. The amount of racist abuse you still hear being chanted - and you can't hide being an ethnic minority! If you come out and then have to suffer homophobic chants every game I wouldn't much fancy it as a career. It would be great if everyone came out together and then it would be near on impossible to single people out but lets face it - that's not going to happen! When and Where do you hear this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 why has there never been a gay 'kiss and tell'? Surely a gay footballer would have a normal sex life, and at some stage would have slept with someone who would want to expose them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 What a load of nonsense. There is an obsession with getting black players to be managers and to be honest it's a load of horsesh*t. One look at the England squad for the 1998 world cup show how the ones whinging about football being toxic and anti black manager is boll(cks. I've chosen the 1998 world cup squad because most of the players there have retired now and are at management age. There were 4 black players in that squad. Sol Campbell, Les Ferdinand, Rio Ferdinand and Paul Ince. Of those 4 Paul Ince has managed in the premier league and has failed as a manager. Les Ferdinand is currently a premier league coach at Tottenham, Rio Ferdinand is the only member of the squad still playing. So as a percentage 50% of the black players have gone into management and coaching, both of them have been or are currently in the premier league and one is still playing. Of the 18 white players only Tony Adams, Gareth Southgate and Alan Shearer for a very short time have managed, none with any success. I believe Tim Flowers is a goalkeeping coach somewhere and Gary Neville is a pundit and a coach. So as a percentage only 27% of white players from that England squad have been involved in coaching or management. Why isn't there campaign to get reformed junkie & alcoholic players like Paul Merson into management? Why isn't there a clamour to get crocked ex players like Darren Anderton into management? It's a disgrace there isn't any currently managing in the premier league. Simple fact is there are a lot fewer black players currently of managerial age than there are white players. Therefore you're going to have fewer black managers. Agree with a lot of this. People base their conclusions on a flawed analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 I think in todays society . it does not matter if your gay . transgender hetro sexual etc etc Yes there are bigots still about and there always will be, we are a far more inclusive society than we were 20/30/40 years ago Im not sure why it is important for footballer/ professional sports personnel should annouce to the world their gay If they played for saints it would not matter one iota, I go to watch the saints because they are a team and not because of their sexuality Basically I thought the idea of trying to out stars etc had long passed If a sports personality wants to announce they are good on them but to me it dosent bloody matter . We all have gay friends (male and Female) , they are still mates we go out for beers etc, but I bet the majority of us dont focus on the fact they may be gay . No we go out out get ****ed and have fum because we are mates And before the usually cohorts slag me of. I announced last year about my Son who is now officially my daugter following surgical intervention last June. I am very proud of her So I think I have a solid understanding of these matters. These matters are not a big issue for me as it is for some and seemingly in the sporting world and other pressure groups Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 Excellent article by graham Le saux All of that in the 80's As for Ken Monkou , Great Bloke, I have been to his house and have had the odd beer in the past with him . Like my previous post , Ken was just a brilliant person and not because he was just a footballer, My girlfreind also thought the same. In fact she said if she hadnt ben with me she could fancy him And because Ken is ken he got on well with everyone and became good mates with GLS. Nothing more and nothing less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 Excellent article by graham Le saux All of that in the 80's As for Ken Monkou , Great Bloke, I have been to his house and have had the odd beer in the past with him . Like my previous post , Ken was just a brilliant person and not because he was just a footballer, My girlfreind also thought the same. In fact she said if she hadnt ben with me she could fancy him And because Ken is ken he got on well with everyone and became good mates with GLS. Nothing more and nothing less I expect she probably did anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wurzel Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 An interesting take on the issue from Graeme Le Saux here: http://reflectionsasia.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/graeme-le-saux-how-gay-slurs-almost-wrecked-my-career/ Interesting article. I've read GLS's view on this before but not in that much detail. it must have been hell for him to deal with, but I think it was the fact that everyone knew he WASN'T gay and it annoyed him that he got so much stick for it. It was clear that it riled him and in a dressing room situation team-mates will always look for the chink in the armour for their ****-taking and opponents will look for it for winding up purposes. I'd hazard a guess that instead of getting angry he'd thrown it back at them by turning up for training in a dress one day for a joke that would have been the end of it. Most people - even footballers know where to draw the line and I'm sure if he - or any other player - had been openly gay - he wouldn't have got a fraction of the stick that he did get. Interesting that he says the abuse generally dropped off after the Fowler incident, probably because most - players and fans alike - could see that that was a step too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr X Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 why has there never been a gay 'kiss and tell'? Surely a gay footballer would have a normal sex life, and at some stage would have slept with someone who would want to expose them. There's kind of a code of conduct that gay people do not out other gay people who are not open for whatever reason. It does happen but suprisingly rare I think because of mutual respect for everyone's journey and the pressures involved in being closeted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 There's kind of a code of conduct that gay people do not out other gay people who are not open for whatever reason. It does happen but suprisingly rare I think because of mutual respect for everyone's journey and the pressures involved in being closeted. Where this does make sense, surely there are plenty of people that would be turned by what I imagine would be a very large amount of money waved in their general direction if they decided to 'spill the beans?' The other theory is that gay sportsmen are so worried about coming out that they do not follow up their feelings ? What is needed is a couple to come out during their career so that it is destroyed as a taboo, as I said before this really shouldnt be news and personally I dont think the medias sensationalism of it makes matters worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 are you thinking of doing a kiss & tell smirking? How much is they offering? My villa connections say that hitzelberger did not used to be a homosex, he used to have birmingham girlfriends. They reckon he's just saying he's homosex to be fashionable like Tom Daley. Villa sources also says that Gary Speed was deffo homosex tho, cos Liam Ridgewell told him so. Not sure why Liam Ridgewell is the authority on this tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 Yeah he said yesterday that he didn't realise he was until recently. Maybe it was just that all Birmingham men are bears are munters and he didn't know till he got back to somewhere normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 Crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 lies there is lots of v.sexy men in birmingham trust me! It's interesting that you can suddenly realise ur homosex when ur 35 or whatever tho, i didn't think it worked like that. I will give it another 7 years of vagina + then i will re-evaluate my position on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr X Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 Where this does make sense, surely there are plenty of people that would be turned by what I imagine would be a very large amount of money waved in their general direction if they decided to 'spill the beans?' The other theory is that gay sportsmen are so worried about coming out that they do not follow up their feelings ? What is needed is a couple to come out during their career so that it is destroyed as a taboo, as I said before this really shouldnt be news and personally I dont think the medias sensationalism of it makes matters worse. Agreed some people do lie low so to speak while they still have a career especially if at the highest level and are very careful who they trust. Its pretty sad that people can't be themselves 100% even in 2014 although things have moved on significantly! Most of the problem is straight people fearing there masculinity will be under trial and the fear of being thought to be gay. Do agree way too much attention given to these stories by the media but the more sports stars that do the less and less of a story it will be for the media Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 i dunno i find these stories v.interesting! I would sooner read about them that the political situation in darfur or whatever. It is not particularly the homosex angle tho, i would be just as interest to read about if he was sticking it to page 3 models, or pensioners, or goats or whatever. Sex is sell yo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 lies there is lots of v.sexy men in birmingham trust me! It's interesting that you can suddenly realise ur homosex when ur 35 or whatever tho, i didn't think it worked like that. I will give it another 7 years of vagina + then i will re-evaluate my position on this. Prove it bear. Who is your most favorite sexy man in Birmingham at the moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 the postman. he wears short shorts all year round yo! It is v.erotic when i have to sign for parcel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 Yeah I know him. Strange choice IMHO but whatever floats your rainbow boat I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 Phwoarrr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 9 January, 2014 Share Posted 9 January, 2014 Bear so you fancied Dennis Rofe then Or if your into postmen Mark Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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