thefuriousb Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 I've never thought much of Forster and last night convinced me he's not the goalkeeper we should be signing. I still prefer David Marshall although originally would have had us go for Ben Foster before he signed a new contract. Dave Watson is the England & Saints goal-keeping coach. Given the links with Ruddy & Forster over the summer and our apparent decision to submit an offer to Celtic for Forster's services then I would tend to go with the expert's view who knows the players. Personally, I have not seen enough of him. It is hard to judge with SPL football and generally in Europe, Celtic are going to come up against sides far better so he will either appear to have a worldy or let in 3 because the 10 in front of him are not able to restrict the flow of chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Well there was a certain Antti Niemi who came from Scottish football, and he was ok... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ART Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Dave Watson is the England & Saints goal-keeping coach. Given the links with Ruddy & Forster over the summer and our apparent decision to submit an offer to Celtic for Forster's services then I would tend to go with the expert's view who knows the players. Personally, I have not seen enough of him. It is hard to judge with SPL football and generally in Europe, Celtic are going to come up against sides far better so he will either appear to have a worldy or let in 3 because the 10 in front of him are not able to restrict the flow of chances. I understand your point. He's rarely tested in the SPL. I'm basing my opinion of how he's performed each time he's been used for England. Ben Foster was far superior and doesn't get flustered like Forster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ART Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Well there was a certain Antti Niemi who came from Scottish football, and he was ok... Indeed Minty but the standard of the SPL has really deteriorated since those days with no Rangers to keep Celtic on the toes. Marshall has SPL experience but with the added one year of tested Premier League experience to his advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorpie the sinner Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 My CFC boss says Bertrand is a solid player not quite ready for their first team! Take Villa out of equation as he was part of woeful team! Trust Koeman to get best out of him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratio_decidendi Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 People should be separating the two. Recent events may have left people feeling down, but to therefore expect the very first signings to instantly make up for that in some way is unrealistic and unfair, especially on Bertrand. What's best for the club (from this point forward) is not going to be the same as what some people think *they* need so that they can feel better. As long as Koeman is happy that we're making the right signings then we should trust his judgement IMO. Oh, I completely agree with you! All I'm saying is that despite expectations being unrealistic, we shouldn't be too judgemental on other people. The fans have been through a lot and many have weak bladders - we shouldn't blame them for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrensup Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 If we spend £8m on Forster, £10m on van Dijk and £10m on Ings and get a good wide midfielder in exchange for Osvaldo that will make us stronger than last year imo - with £35m still in the bank. Good business got to say. Nah, more like breaking even I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 I find it hard to think that Ings are the only other striker apart from Pellé that we would be interested in, but no real rumours about strikers yet other than Ings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 I find it hard to think that Ings are the only other striker apart from Pellé that we would be interested in, but no real rumours about strikers yet other than Ings... Whatever people feel about him, the signing of Bertrand showed that some deals we don't have even a sniff of until they're virtually complete. So who knows what else may be going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 But who would you want to go for? Rojo isn't proven in the Premier League, is South American (which we don't seem to do that we'll with) and would cost us 16m. Do you not think that's a bit of a gamble? Across the Spanish, German, French, Dutch, Portuguese Leagues, I can't believe we couldn't sign a good quality, permanent left-back. All transfers are a risk, does that mean we should only ever take out loans? If Bertrand wasn't from Chelsea, but we were signing Aston Villa's average left back from last season, no-one would be impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berudenot2 Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 We'll soon know if it's Van Dyk as he's now suspended from the next two ECL games. Sent off v Legia. No he wasn't it was Ambrose who was sent off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxstone Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Across the Spanish, German, French, Dutch, Portuguese Leagues, I can't believe we couldn't sign a good quality, permanent left-back. All transfers are a risk, does that mean we should only ever take out loans? If Bertrand wasn't from Chelsea, but we were signing Aston Villa's average left back from last season, no-one would be impressed. Maybe but Bertrand does have some pedigree - CL winner, England International, Olympic Team etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Across the Spanish, German, French, Dutch, Portuguese Leagues, I can't believe we couldn't sign a good quality, permanent left-back. All transfers are a risk, does that mean we should only ever take out loans? If Bertrand wasn't from Chelsea, but we were signing Aston Villa's average left back from last season, no-one would be impressed. Good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Maybe but Bertrand does have some pedigree - CL winner, England International, Olympic Team etc... Young English talent...it's Reed FFS, you all know very well that he's obsessed with the England set-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Well there was a certain Antti Niemi who came from Scottish football, and he was ok... that was when Scottish football was worth something though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Saint Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Young English talent...it's Reed FFS, you all know very well that he's obsessed with the England set-up. It's a shame he let go of most of our talent in the English set-up then lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadoldgit Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 People all too often fans take their frustrations out on players. Fuller was a good championship signing, yet many were annoyed at him for only costing 90k when they wanted money spent. People get annoyed with Ramirez because he cost a bit for us and isn't messi. I just find it odd that we've signed a left back we really needed, got one who knows the league, and many are acting like it's the worst news they've heard in years. I know, it is bizarre isnt it? It could well be that we have our eye elsewhere but the traget wont be available for a while so this is a stop gap which, if it works, could be permanent. We really dont know but there clearly is a reason why this is a loan. The bedwetters moan when we dont sign someone and then moan when we do. Hey ho.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Across the Spanish, German, French, Dutch, Portuguese Leagues, I can't believe we couldn't sign a good quality, permanent left-back. All transfers are a risk, does that mean we should only ever take out loans? If Bertrand wasn't from Chelsea, but we were signing Aston Villa's average left back from last season, no-one would be impressed. Goodness me, its not that hard to understand. Targett is clearly in RK's mind. Signing an expensive permanent man ahead of him might be great for the here and now, but not if RK clearly thinks Targett is the better solution in a season or so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 I know, it is bizarre isnt it? It could well be that we have our eye elsewhere but the traget wont be available for a while so this is a stop gap which, if it works, could be permanent. We really dont know but there clearly is a reason why this is a loan. The bedwetters moan when we dont sign someone and then moan when we do. Hey ho.... No they don't. No one would have "moaned" as you put it had we signed Rojo (still might TBF.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Across the Spanish, German, French, Dutch, Portuguese Leagues, I can't believe we couldn't sign a good quality, permanent left-back. All transfers are a risk, does that mean we should only ever take out loans? If Bertrand wasn't from Chelsea, but we were signing Aston Villa's average left back from last season, no-one would be impressed. TBF we don't know if we are looking at a perm' LB signing before the window shuts but as it stands, we need that hole filling by season start and that's happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint IQ Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Across the Spanish, German, French, Dutch, Portuguese Leagues, I can't believe we couldn't sign a good quality, permanent left-back. All transfers are a risk, does that mean we should only ever take out loans? If Bertrand wasn't from Chelsea, but we were signing Aston Villa's average left back from last season, no-one would be impressed. But Targett is meant be the next best thing so why put a lot of money into someone getting in his way and ruining his development like say a Chelsea or Man City do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 No they don't. No one would have "moaned" as you put it had we signed Rojo (still might TBF.) I would of as I don't want an influx of Carlos Kickaball. We don't exactly have a great history with them! That said, every transfer is a gamble and the club really need 3/4 really, really, decent signings and no more departures at all. Not one more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Goodness me, its not that hard to understand. Targett is clearly in RK's mind. Signing an expensive permanent man ahead of him might be great for the here and now, but not if RK clearly thinks Targett is the better solution in a season or so But you can apply that to lots of different positions across our squad, that would mean we don't sign anyone. Having a transfer policy built around what players might or might not be like in a year or more is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratio_decidendi Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 But you can apply that to lots of different positions across our squad, that would mean we don't sign anyone. Having a transfer policy built around what players might or might not be like in a year or more is ridiculous. Every position? You'd rather take Forster on a loan to see if Gazzaniga improves on the off chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 TBF we don't know if we are looking at a perm' LB signing before the window shuts but as it stands, we need that hole filling by season start and that's happened. Yes, that's what's happened, we've filled a hole with an alright player, had just been hoping we'd be doing a bit more than a quick, temporary fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Every position? You'd rather take Forster on a loan to see if Gazzaniga improves on the off chance? That's my point, you wouldn't. And I didn't mention "every position", your post doesn't really make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Goodness me, its not that hard to understand. Targett is clearly in RK's mind. Signing an expensive permanent man ahead of him might be great for the here and now, but not if RK clearly thinks Targett is the better solution in a season or so Exactly this. the deal makes perfect sense to me. They must thing Targett is a season or two away from being ready for the first team. So get a proven premier league player in on loan as stop gap to let Targett develop in his own time and come through when he's ready rather than throw him in now or sign an expensive left back on a 3-4 year deal. Makes perfect sense to me. Excellent business and long term thinking, which is what you'd expect from the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 I can see why people are a little disappointed. We've got £90m in the bank, and a key position that needed filling is replaced by a short-term loan. Now, to be honest, I was told from day 1 that LB isn't a priority for the club - I didn't particularly agree with that, but maybe the club simply don't see it as important as us - and they wanted to make a signing which wouldn't slam the door shut in Targetts face. That's how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Exactly this. the deal makes perfect sense to me. They must thing Targett is a season or two away from being ready for the first team. So get a proven premier league player in on loan as stop gap to let Targett develop in his own time and come through when he's ready rather than throw him in now or sign an expensive left back on a 3-4 year deal. Makes perfect sense to me. Excellent business and long term thinking, which is what you'd expect from the club. Quite right Del. I don't know why I'm surprised that the masses can't see the merits of this deal. It's great business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 I can see why people are a little disappointed. We've got £90m in the bank, and a key position that needed filling is replaced by a short-term loan. Now, to be honest, I was told from day 1 that LB isn't a priority for the club - I didn't particularly agree with that, but maybe the club simply don't see it as important as us - and they wanted to make a signing which wouldn't slam the door shut in Targetts face. That's how I see it. TBF I think that is a reasonable view. I'm hopeful that our other signings will be a step up from the likes of Bertrand and then this signing may be ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olallana Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Since this is more or less the HCDAJFU thread too lets throw a crazy name out there... Since Krueger and the club desperately want to increase the commercial side of the club (and rightly so), what about signing up.....yes, I am crazy I know.....Ronaldinho for a year. Not the smartest or best thing footballwise for us but what about increasing the commercial value and awareness of the club from around the world, and it´s not like he completely finished as a player either... Could we afford to give him £80-100k/month inside the wage cap, I´m sure we could get the money back from commercial sales so it´s more if we could fit it in under the wage cap due to that stupid FFP thing.... QPR has been mentioned around him so why not us.... Yes I know it wont happen, it´s more playing with the thought and taking the aspect of the commercial side into the whole picture... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 (edited) Quite right Del. I don't know why I'm surprised that the masses can't see the merits of this deal. It's great business. It is indeed, Bertrand is a decent player, to be honest Targett is just an unknown quality right now. If Koeman had thought that he could take the lion's share of the LB work this season then we wouldn't have signed Bertrand. I suppose some of the apparent deception could be put down to the fact that some really appear to have thought that we could actually sign Rojo...we can't and we won't. However Chelsea..that's another thing. PSG and Valencia favourites though; Edited 31 July, 2014 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 I can see why people are a little disappointed. We've got £90m in the bank, and a key position that needed filling is replaced by a short-term loan. Now, to be honest, I was told from day 1 that LB isn't a priority for the club - I didn't particularly agree with that, but maybe the club simply don't see it as important as us - and they wanted to make a signing which wouldn't slam the door shut in Targetts face. That's how I see it. Here's another way to look at it: Maybe the club got the player they wanted on the terms they wanted and that all parties were happy with. Just because we didn't spend lots of money on this position doesn't mean we've not got something we wanted. Just because it is initially a loan does not mean it is necessarily 'short term' I can also see why people are disappointed, but only because I think those people are too focused on spending money just because we have it, and because they think their opinion about who we need is more important than Koeman's. Have doubts about a player by all means, but there is an arrogance about some peoples expectations where they seem to assume that just because what happened is not what they would've done, they therefore don't consider that the club might actually have got what they wanted and that we've somehow had to settle for something not as good. To put it bluntly - if someone doesn't rate the player, they seem to then look for reasons as to why that player came in and how it somehow proves their negative opinion about the clubs policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Across the Spanish, German, French, Dutch, Portuguese Leagues, I can't believe we couldn't sign a good quality, permanent left-back. All transfers are a risk, does that mean we should only ever take out loans? If Bertrand wasn't from Chelsea, but we were signing Aston Villa's average left back from last season, no-one would be impressed. Good post. But what if the club feel Targett is capable of doing a Luke Shaw? Perhaps then a good quality loan for a year whilst he is eased into the team is a good idea? If Targett delivers then all well and good and we've saved c.£10m (and have another £30m asset on our hands), if he doesn't but Bertrand does well then we can decide whether we try to buy him in the summer if the deal is right. If neither deliver then we spend our money in Jan instead. I'd be happy with this approach if this were the thinking in this scenario ... Unlike some, I don't see the need to spend for the sake of it and I don't want to see a 'homegrown' that has been earmarked to make the step-up have limited chances because we brought someone else in on a perm for a big fee so feel the need to play them. Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing another up-and-coming homegrown playing for us (for a season at least!) supporting/supported by a young english international. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 I can see why people are a little disappointed. We've got £90m in the bank, and a key position that needed filling is replaced by a short-term loan. Now, to be honest, I was told from day 1 that LB isn't a priority for the club - I didn't particularly agree with that, but maybe the club simply don't see it as important as us - and they wanted to make a signing which wouldn't slam the door shut in Targetts face. That's how I see it. people need to stop imagining that the money will all be spent on new transfer fees, no-one has actually said that now have they. The general terms "transfer fees and salaries" (sorry don't like the word wages, makes me imagine a line of blokes of a friday queuing up at a factory for a small brown envelope) could easily mean those past,present or future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 No they don't. No one would have "moaned" as you put it had we signed Rojo (still might TBF.) Yes they would. Sure, he'd get a good reception from most but there would be some saying: over priced for a left back, unproven in Premier League, mistake signing someone from performances in one tournament, poor disciplinary record, s**t tattoos, carlos kickaball...shall I go on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Koeman must have wanted Bertrand. Not sure about the Inter winger though, if he's not good enough don't bring him in. The winger from Norwich, Danny Ings, Forster, Van Dijk and Vlaar would give us a decent chance to stay up and cost less than £50m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Here's another way to look at it: Maybe the club got the player they wanted on the terms they wanted and that all parties were happy with. Just because we didn't spend lots of money on this position doesn't mean we've not got something we wanted. Just because it is initially a loan does not mean it is necessarily 'short term' I can also see why people are disappointed, but only because I think those people are too focused on spending money just because we have it, and because they think their opinion about who we need is more important than Koeman's. Have doubts about a player by all means, but there is an arrogance about some peoples expectations where they seem to assume that just because what happened is not what they would've done, they therefore don't consider that the club might actually have got what they wanted and that we've somehow had to settle for something not as good. To put it bluntly - if someone doesn't rate the player, they seem to then look for reasons as to why that player came in and how it somehow proves their negative opinion about the clubs policy. I'm not bothered about how much money we spend on him. Bertrand is alright and should do a decent job for us. Don't like the fact he'll be sitting out of two of our games this season. As I've said before, I'm happy to look at the whole picture come the end of August and judge our business fully then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 The winger from Norwich, Danny Ings, Forster, Van Dijk and Vlaar would give us a decent chance to stay up and cost less than £50m. If we signed all of them, we'd be looking to do a lot better than merely "stay up". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minty Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 I'm not bothered about how much money we spend on him. Bertrand is alright and should do a decent job for us. Don't like the fact he'll be sitting out of two of our games this season. As I've said before, I'm happy to look at the whole picture come the end of August and judge our business fully then. That reply wasn't particularly aimed at any individual - but there are clearly some who have directly commented that they're disappointed we haven't spent more on this position, or that it's not permanent etc, and don't seem to accept any other viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 people need to stop imagining that the money will all be spent on new transfer fees, no-one has actually said that now have they. The general terms "transfer fees and salaries" (sorry don't like the word wages, makes me imagine a line of blokes of a friday queuing up at a factory for a small brown envelope) could easily mean those past,present or future. We should factor in the wages saved by the outgoing players as well then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 If we signed all of them, we'd be looking to do a lot better than merely "stay up". Quite possibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratio_decidendi Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 That's my point, you wouldn't. And I didn't mention "every position", your post doesn't really make sense. Mate, complete braindead for a second there, just ignore it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CylonKing Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Didn't we loan Cork from Chelsea for a while before finally buying him? Would say that that worked out in our favour long term! I'm just pleased that we've got a Premier League player into a gap in the squad. Only need 3 or 4 more and we'll be stronger than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Balls Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Koeman must have wanted Bertrand. Not sure about the Inter winger though, if he's not good enough don't bring him in. The winger from Norwich, Danny Ings, Forster, Van Dijk and Vlaar would give us a decent chance to stay up and cost less than £50m. Stay up? If we sign all of them I'd hope we'd be aiming for at least a top half finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 But you can apply that to lots of different positions across our squad, that would mean we don't sign anyone. Having a transfer policy built around what players might or might not be like in a year or more is ridiculous. So you dont trust RK to know whether someone is likely to be a very good defender in a year or so? Who said we are applying this policy to every position, its more to do with Targett being a very hot prospect for future LB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 We should factor in the wages saved by the outgoing players as well then. Also factor in that there is a business to run, debt to pay, training ground to fund, agents to pay etc etc. Also factor in that the headline sales figures are just that. They'll include add ons and installments. We haven't banked 90 odd million as people seem to think. If we did it should be obvious that some of it will be allocated to things other than transfer fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Wolf Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 Winston Reid in according to some Facebook page. Not the most reliable source I know but would be a very decent signing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baird of the land Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 I can see why people are a little disappointed. We've got £90m in the bank, and a key position that needed filling is replaced by a short-term loan. Now, to be honest, I was told from day 1 that LB isn't a priority for the club - I didn't particularly agree with that, but maybe the club simply don't see it as important as us - and they wanted to make a signing which wouldn't slam the door shut in Targetts face. That's how I see it. Yeah while slightly tentative about Bertrand i can understand and somewhat get behind their reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 31 July, 2014 Share Posted 31 July, 2014 We should factor in the wages saved by the outgoing players as well then. Well yes we should, haven't really thought on comparative out/in salarial mass but I'm sure that it would be heavily weighted in the club's favour at this point in time. I just can't imagine that Pelle and Tadic will be drawing as much as Lambert and Lallana. Lovren is still to be replaced, Chambers..well he wouldn't have been on vast sums and Bertrand might well outweigh what we were paying Shaw. Osvaldo will take a dead weight off of the bill and we won't pay any Inter reservist anywhere near as much. That said i'd be pretty sure that Koeman gets more than Mauricio because he was apparently one of the lowest paid managers in the Pl (on basic anyway). If I had to have a stab at a figure on a numbers basis I'd guess at around 5 million/annum saving just now for the club. But it's a fag packet guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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