The Scottish Independence referendum

[revolution saint]

Bit of an English backlash against all the fawning and bending over backwards for the Scots. I can see UKIP reforming into the English Independence party and campaigning for an English parliament.

 

Regardless of which way the vote goes I can see there being a backlash afterwards from rUK. I'd imagine for the majority of non-Scots the union has always been a bit of an irrelevance. Certainly I've never really felt much distinction between saying I'm English or I'm British but I think that will change as a result of the benefits the scots have been promised and the sight of desperate politicians prostrating themselves in front of the Scottish public.

 

Up till now I don't think there's been much questioning of the free HE tuition they receive or free prescriptions etc but hopefully rUK will start to question why we're not entitled to similar (and rightly so).

 

I seriously doubt that a Yes vote will be delivered but I reckon there will be a hell of a lot of political capital to be made if politicians engage in some Scots bashing after the vote (whatever the outcome), and proclaiming / championing "Englishness" will probably be seen as less xenophobic and toxic than it currently is.

[View From The Top]

 

PS It would have to be an English and Welsh and Northern Irish citizenship test... you're getting England confused with Britain, with or without Scotland. It's a very English thing to do.

 

That's because we don't give a toss about about the Welsh or Irish and very many Englishman wish they'd fucck off alongside Scotland giving us our independence.

[Manuel]

Up till now I don't think there's been much questioning of the free HE tuition they receive or free prescriptions etc but hopefully rUK will start to question why we're not entitled to similar (and rightly so).

I'm not sure the Scots are getting such a good deal with the free prescriptions though. I understand that the cost of this is taken out of the Scotch NHS budget, so effectively they're not getting something for nothing, and it's not the English who are paying out for it. And as it turns out it appears they're struggling to afford it (and have enough nurses). The Scottish Tories are campaigning to scrap the idea and start paying again.

[buctootim]

I'm not sure the Scots are getting such a good deal with the free prescriptions though. I understand that the cost of this is taken out of the Scotch NHS budget, so effectively they're not getting something for nothing, and it's not the English who are paying out for it. And as it turns out it appears they're struggling to afford it (and have enough nurses). The Scottish Tories are campaigning to scrap the idea and start paying again.

 

It may come out of the NHS budget but public spending (including the NHS) is 21% higher in Scotland than England despite gdp per capita being lower. The Barnett formula needs to go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_formula

Edited 12 September, 2014 by buctootim

[buctootim]

Why do opinion polls like ICM ask the question "Should Scotland be an independent country?" rather than "will you vote yes, no or not note vote on Monday?". It must make a small but important difference to the answers.

[Tokyo-Saint]

That's because we don't give a toss about about the Welsh or Irish and very many Englishman wish they'd fucck off alongside Scotland giving us our independence.

 

You may well get what you want, however you will be left with a very right wing demographic in Westminster. I know how you love men of the people like Farage and their lovely dune like views. England should worry a lot more about how the political landscape will look in their own country rather than, like many on here, the price or shopping at Asda in Arbroath.

[Whitey Grandad]

Yeah, because Scotland wouldn't be in the EU with all the freedoms of movement etc (or at the very least retain all those privileges in the handover), right? At worst they'd need an E111/EHIC and they already have a separate NHS Trust for Scotland.

 

PS It would have to be an English and Welsh and Northern Irish citizenship test... you're getting England confused with Britain, with or without Scotland. It's a very English thing to do.

 

I'm sure you both know, but others might not, that these three battles involved England fighting against Scotland and for once it would be good to teach those of a Scottish bent the other side's point of view.

 

Scotland would not be allowed to walk straight into the EU and would have to go through a qualification period, if accepted.

[Batman]

The SNP Are certain Scotland "sends" down to "westminster" more money than it gets back....is that true?

 

Also, the big debate last night, seems odd having a 16 year old getting angry about Westminster and thatcher.!!

 

BT are the latest to say Salmonds Scotland will face price rises

 

I'm guessing this will be said be someone different every day now

Edited 12 September, 2014 by Batman

[buctootim]

The SNP Are certain Scotland "sends" down to "westminster" more money than it gets back....is that true?

 

You can probably bend the figures any way you want

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Expenditure_and_Revenue_Scotland

[pap]

I'm sure you both know, but others might not, that these three battles involved England fighting against Scotland and for once it would be good to teach those of a Scottish bent the other side's point of view.

 

Scotland would not be allowed to walk straight into the EU and would have to go through a qualification period, if accepted.

Maybe they can join Putin's up and coming supranational bloc instead!

[Batman]

Maybe they can join Putin's up and coming supranational bloc instead!

 

Good luck getting in the EU and/or NATO on that one

 

My mate just called me from Glasgow city centre (he has already voted NO by post)

 

And it is madness. He said there are YES patrols around the estates who are going round vandalising anything with a NO on it

 

People with a NO tshir or badge are being chased down the street.

 

Not quite the same down the west end/Ashton lane way. Far more civilised apparently

Edited 12 September, 2014 by Batman

[pap]

Good luck in the EU and/or NATO on that one

All of which are trying to scare the Scots now. We shouldn't back them into a corner. It's an independence referendum. Implied punishment shouldn't be part of the deliberations.

 

Only half-joking on the Putin point. A foothold in Western Europe would be attractive to many interests that we might not invite voluntarily.

 

Why push the Scots away?

[saintbletch]

You may well get what you want, however you will be left with a very right wing demographic in Westminster. I know how you love men of the people like Farage and their lovely dune like views. England should worry a lot more about how the political landscape will look in their own country rather than, like many on here, the price or shopping at Asda in Arbroath.

 

Mods?

 

Toke's had his account hacked by someone that can deploy logic, construct an argument and command the English language.

 

Whoever you are, we want Toke back!

[OldNick]

I notice more and more English people i speak too are getting pretty cheesed how we are bowing and scraping. i wonder if the Scots have done themselves a bit of harm how they are perceived now? Surely the rules should be the same all over the UK

[buctootim]

I notice more and more English people i speak too are getting pretty cheesed how we are bowing and scraping. i wonder if the Scots have done themselves a bit of harm how they are perceived now? Surely the rules should be the same all over the UK

 

I think thats right. They may well vote to stay with devo max but then find the English MPs vote to equalise public spending across the UK, leaving Scotland worse off than before and without sole use of North Sea oil to cushion the pain.

[Halo Stickman]

You may well get what you want, however you will be left with a very right wing demographic in Westminster. I know how you love men of the people like Farage and their lovely dune like views. England should worry a lot more about how the political landscape will look in their own country rather than, like many on here, the price or shopping at Asda in Arbroath.

 

 

Mods?

 

Toke's had his account hacked by someone that can deploy logic, construct an argument and command the English language.

 

Whoever you are, we want Toke back!

 

Don’t worry Bletch, I think I may have solved this mystery.

 

http://arbroath.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/japanese-dress-hire-firm-find-demand.html

[View From The Top]

You may well get what you want, however you will be left with a very right wing demographic in Westminster. I know how you love men of the people like Farage and their lovely dune like views. England should worry a lot more about how the political landscape will look in their own country rather than, like many on here, the price or shopping at Asda in Arbroath.

 

I'm perfectly aware of how the English political landscape would look if England ever managed to lose the whinging Celts but the "left" in England is dead anyway. Sold it's soul to Blair and is lost forever.

[Goatboy]

Don’t worry Bletch, I think I may have solved this mystery.

 

http://arbroath.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/japanese-dress-hire-firm-find-demand.html

 

[buctootim]

[Tokyo-Saint]

I'm perfectly aware of how the English political landscape would look if England ever managed to lose the whinging Celts but the "left" in England is dead anyway. Sold it's soul to Blair and is lost forever.

 

Who said you weren't?

[buctootim]

[Goatboy]

 

Knew I should have gone with ivory. Do I look cheap?

[buctootim]

Nylon and diamante never looks cheap

[KingdomCome]

I'm perfectly aware of how the English political landscape would look if England ever managed to lose the whinging Celts but the "left" in England is dead anyway. Sold it's soul to Blair and is lost forever.

 

Because you weren't a fan of Blair it should be an every man for himself, dog eat dog society?

Excellent logic.

[Sevvy]

A yes vote should be good for the shipyards in Portsmouth, they are bound to be given the contracts that were awarded to Glasgow. We can't have a foreign country maintaining our warships.

 

Even if they vote yes, the OPVs which will be started to be built in the next few months will not be moving south to Pompey, and the type 26,s will be built in Barrow, MOD vessels will never be built in POmpey,they as taking apart a perfectly good shipbuilding facility there and sending it north, between £200M and £250M is being spent building a new shipbuilding facillty in SCotstoun. Its all been political to help the Scots.

[View From The Top]

Because you weren't a fan of Blair it should be an every man for himself, dog eat dog society?

Excellent logic.

 

The left is dead. Labour is tory lite.

 

The scramble for the middle ground has left the left isolated. The right found a home in UKIP.

[pap]

The left is dead. Labour is tory lite.

 

The scramble for the middle ground has left the left isolated. The right found a home in UKIP.

 

It's dormant, not dead. That sentiment doesn't disappear overnight, it's just not being selected for government. Plenty of people from party members to unions on Labour's case for this. Others have deemed the Labour Party unsaveable (which you'd have some sympathy with) and done their own thing.

 

Unfortunately, with FPTP, it'll all be a bit Peoples Front of Judea for years.

[SuperMikey]

Hah! No, I have only been there once, when I first moved to the area - just remembered you were from here that's all!

 

Agree with what you're saying as well. I now have no argument to come back with

 

Well that's fair enough, I think I did meet somebody off here in Jaxx at some point though...New Years? F*ck knows. You've got to be b*llocksed in there to enjoy yourself which does threaten the old memory a bit.

[Batman]

SNP will punish business leaders for being in bed with the Conservative party.

 

They propose plans to nationalise all or parts of banking companies, Royal Mail and BP if try don't fall into line if the vote is yes

[teamsaint]

SNP will punish business leaders for being in bed with the Conservative party.

 

They propose plans to nationalise all or parts of banking companies, Royal Mail and BP if try don't fall into line if the vote is yes

 

like all the others they will give them tax breaks to stay.

[View From The Top]

It's dormant, not dead. That sentiment doesn't disappear overnight, it's just not being selected for government. Plenty of people from party members to unions on Labour's case for this. Others have deemed the Labour Party unsaveable (which you'd have some sympathy with) and done their own thing.

 

Unfortunately, with FPTP, it'll all be a bit Peoples Front of Judea for years.

 

Perhaps I should have said Labour as a left wing party is dead as opposed to the left as a movement.

[saintbletch]

like all the others they will give them tax breaks to stay.

 

I think this has been overlooked, teamsaint.

 

As Ireland did, an Independent Scotland in control of its own rates and rules for corporation tax could be an excellent place to set up headquarters for large, foreign multinationals.

 

It might be at odds with the left-leaning Scottish body politic, but potentially luring billions in tax revenues to Scotland might see its leaders replace principles with pragmatism pretty bloody quickly.

 

As has been said below in support of companies threatening to leave Scotland, the management of publicly traded companies has a duty to act in the best interests of its shareholders. A 7% (arbitrary figure) flat rate of corporation tax might equally see one brand of corporate pragmatism replaced with an alternative form of corporate pragmatism if more of the figures in the spreadsheet turn green instead of red.

 

Perhaps there will be another form of off-shore industry in Scotland?

[TopGun]

I do find it amusing about the number of English people who said previously, "sod them, we don't need them", who are now all for the retention of the union though...

 

This forum included!

 

Two of my work colleagues were due to meet with some DEFRA comms people in London yesterday and the meeting was cancelled at short notice. The reason: the DEFRA comms people were off to Scotland to help prop up the No campaign...

Edited 12 September, 2014 by TopGun

[Batman]

I do find it amusing about the number of English people who said previously, "sod them, we don't need them", who are now all for the retention of the union though...

 

This forum included!

 

Who is that, then?

I want a no vote for no other reason than Salmond is a smug ****. And would love to see his face when he loses

[TopGun]

Who is that, then?

I want a no vote for no other reason than Salmond is a smug ****. And would love to see his face when he loses

 

That's why you were a Navy cook ;-)

[pap]

Who is that, then?

I want a no vote for no other reason than Salmond is a smug ****. And would love to see his face when he loses

Heavyweight political opinion. Only on SaintsWeb.

[TopGun]

Heavyweight political opinion. Only on SaintsWeb.

 

 

We need a thumbs up/down thingy on this site!

[Batman]

 

We need a thumbs up/down thingy on this site!

 

Or a high five stamp like on sports yapper lol

 

German bank, Richard Branson, screw fix, Chinese government, head of NATO, 5 previous 1st sea lords have all come out and said independence would be very bad for Scotland

 

SNP claim mi5 agents are in Glasgow trying to push Westminster in Scotland

[TopGun]

Or a high five stamp like on sports yapper lol

 

German bank, Richard Branson, screw fix, Chinese government, head of NATO, 5 previous 1st sea lords have all come out and said independence would be very bad for Scotland

 

SNP claim mi5 agents are in Glasgow trying to push Westminster in Scotland

 

But tbf none of them have said that Salmond is a smug **** and that is their reason for advocating no...

 

And as for MI5... one SNP campaigner, their former leader Jim Sillars, made that claim some months ago. Not the SNP itself.

[dubai_phil]

I think this has been overlooked, teamsaint.

 

As Ireland did, an Independent Scotland in control of its own rates and rules for corporation tax could be an excellent place to set up headquarters for large, foreign multinationals.

 

It might be at odds with the left-leaning Scottish body politic, but potentially luring billions in tax revenues to Scotland might see its leaders replace principles with pragmatism pretty bloody quickly.

 

As has been said below in support of companies threatening to leave Scotland, the management of publicly traded companies has a duty to act in the best interests of its shareholders. A 7% (arbitrary figure) flat rate of corporation tax might equally see one brand of corporate pragmatism replaced with an alternative form of corporate pragmatism if more of the figures in the spreadsheet turn green instead of red.

 

Perhaps there will be another form of off-shore industry in Scotland?

 

Dear Blecth, nice idea but...

 

What is to stop England doing that? In fact giving special rates to go to Wales & Cornwall. Starbucks (or RBS for that matter) could set up their global HQ in a tax haven in Penzance as easily as in Edinburgh.

 

How many Japanese Car Manufacturing firms opened plants in Scotland for example?

[SuperMikey]

[video=youtube;rHmLb-RIbrM]

 

I'm not one for BBC bashing, but this video shows up Nick Robinson quite a lot - on the 6 O'Clock News he was saying that Salmond avoided answering his question with some heavy editing, however in this raw video he clearly answers it twice over. I think some journos in this could very easily be accused of trying to report events to a certain agenda.

[SuperMikey]

 

This is his clip from the BBC news report. Completely astonishing how he thinks he can get away with that!

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/complaint/alexsalmondrbsquestion/

 

That's the BBC's response - although I understand the 2 part question, the report is incredibly misleading in that respect and makes it seem as if he didn't answer either part when Salmond gave a lengthy answer on corporation tax.

Edited 12 September, 2014 by SuperMikey

[Foxy]

Has anyone asked why we don't get a vote on whether we want them?

[saintbletch]

Dear Blecth, nice idea but...

 

What is to stop England doing that? In fact giving special rates to go to Wales & Cornwall. Starbucks (or RBS for that matter) could set up their global HQ in a tax haven in Penzance as easily as in Edinburgh.

 

How many Japanese Car Manufacturing firms opened plants in Scotland for example?

 

Dean Dubai Philip,

 

Yeah, good points. The other factor is that an independent Scotland would need to be part of the EU, or at least have trade agreements in place to make them attractive for multinationals outside of the EU to exploit.

 

The wider point still stands that an independent Scotland could use aggressive tax incentives to draw business to Scotland. To answer your question, the potential nett loss of tax revenue might be the factor that would stop the other countries of the Union (divested of Scotland) from doing the same. A race to the bottom isn't in the interests of a union that isn't solely reliant on oil revenues.

 

Also businesses might not need to 'locate' themselves in Scotland, but simply be registered there. They could use the sort of flag of convenience approach to tax used by Starbucks, Google and Amazon.

 

BTW were the car plants you mention given special tax arrangements? I'd always assumed it was some form of other investment incentives (perhaps it netts out to the same thing).

[Tokyo-Saint]

Has anyone asked why we don't get a vote on whether we want them?

The fact you have sent a load of torry boys in tartan trousers to get egged on the stairs of Glasgow shows that you want us (or possibly don't). Either way it looks like an abusive husband begging to have little Mo back, promising they've changed and they won't do anything like Thatcher again.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

With the result too close to call I was going to say that Scottish independence would be a disaster for the peoples of these islands. But perhaps that's too strong because when you think about it whatever the referendum result life will probably continue much as it had before for millions of ordinary people on both sides of the new/old border. So a highly regrettable development then (in my opinion) but this utterly unnecessary 'divorce' we are contemplating may well rank as a essentially 'second rate' affair in the grand scheme of things.

 

But if we do end up in this constitutional mess then the blame must surely lay with our ruling political class who for far too long have complacently assumed a 'No' campaign victory based on nothing more than early poll results and a arrogant disregard for Alec Salmond and the coalition of the dissatisfied, the dispossessed and traditional Scots anglophobe's he has amassed. The danger signs have been there all along but our leaders were preoccupied with other matters and thus blind to them.

 

Alistair Darling has done his best, but let's face it he's a lightweight when a issue of this importance surely deserved a true political bruiser to front it - such as Gordon Brown perhaps. Even allowing the SNP to dictate the form the question should take was a elemental mistake - if the question had instead been phrased: 'Do you agree that Scotland should remain a part of the United Kingdom?' then unionists would have held the advantage of appearing to be positive and asking for a 'yes' instead of a 'no'. In a vote looking this tight that seeming minor matter may make a key difference.

 

And the tactical mistakes just keep on coming. The Scottish people may well be as capable of error as anyone else is, but they ain't stupid. So Westminster coercing a bunch of (widely despised) bankers into coming out at the last minute and threatening to move their corporate headquarters looks just like the crude attempted blackmail that it surely is. In my experience people don't much like being blackmailed. As for the idea that the price of bread will skyrocket next week if the SNP get their way ... well that is just risible.

 

I say the Prime Minister struck exactly the right note earlier on this week in his 'effing tories' speech. Abandoning that appeal to Scottish reason, and to Scottish hearts, and returning to the 'strong arm' tactics of before may well prove to be the final nail in the coffin of this old union - a old nation that many of us still happen to think is worth something in this world.

[CB Fry]

Interesting the Yes campaign upset about the announcements from the banks because they are "politically motivated".

 

Well, yeah.

 

The banks are saying that stuff because they don't want to see a yes vote. And unless I am very much mistaken, the whole effing campaign is politically motivated, isn't it?

[scotty]

I'd agree with most of Chapel Charlies thoughts, but with a couple of addenda. First off, everyone and his dog has put their tuppence worth in, but has anyone else noticed the deafening silence emanating from Blair? And second, while I'm firmly in the camp that says whatever the Scots vote to do is ok with me, leave or stay, but the ramifications strike me as rather different to the mainstream arguments (which seem to be almost entirely based on the economies of the countries involved.) The UK would become a smaller nation, and with far less political clout worldwide; on the face of it that would seem like a bad thing, but would we as a less important entity have got involved, for example, in the fiasco of the Iraq invasion? Would our support have mattered a fartful to the yanks? And as a smaller nation, we will presumably carry less weight in Europe. Again, on the face of it that sounds like a negative, but given the soaring popularity of anti-european parties across the continent, (including our own UKIP,) would we actually find ourselves in a better position to extricate ourselves from it should the need arise?

 

Interesting days ahead.

[SuperMikey]

Can't argue too much with that Charlie, although I might take issue with your description of Salmond's followers as "anglophobes". I think it's a bit simplistic to put the support for a separation down to a disdain of England - it's more a disdain of the current political system more than the allegiance with fellow UK nations. Now, i'm not saying that all supporters for the Yes cause are Anglophiles without a bad word to say about England, but I think a lot of people in the rest of the UK take support for separation as a personal affront ("If they want to leave then f*ck them", "What's wrong with the UK as it is?!") when it's more about Scotland developing in its own right. I'm sure a lot of people who will vote Yes would be happy enough in their lives had there not even been a referendum, but this is about seizing an opportunity. Following in the footsteps of nations of similar sizes (Scandinavian countries, Switzerland, Belgium etc) not to become some global superpower but to live comfortably and meaningfully with its own political agenda set by the people who live there.

 

There's a lot of ill-sentiment towards Westminster politics and the "ruling class" from all over the country - we saw that with the floods in the West Country recently, we've seen it with the Hillsborough debacle and we've seen it for decades with people in former industrial towns who were stripped of their livelihoods by those they elected to represent them. A lot of people in my age bracket (20s-30s) are voting yes to get shot of the corrupt and morally bankrupt leaders in Westminster and to have a shot on the leaders in Scotland. Now, i'm not saying that they're perfect - Salmond does come across as being pretty sleazy and smug - but it's a shot to make a change and try to inspire people back into believing in their leaders. There is serious apathy amongst young people all across the UK right now that will come to a head with the political system in the future, and can you blame them? The betrayal of their core voters by the Lib Dems after the GE is a good example of that, although admittedly that hasn't had as much of an effect on the young voters of Scotland as it has elsewhere.

 

The No campaign have fallen into the trap of using scare tactics to provoke swing voters into playing it safe, and that'll probably work. What it won't work on though is the large amount of disgruntled and unhappy people in Scotland, in the North-West, in Yorkshire and all across the UK who are fed up of our politicians and want to make a change. While I wouldn't expect an independent Scotland to be some sort of vastly different socialist utopia, it would demonstrate some kind of "people power" which with the events of the last 20 years or so (invasion of Iraq despite mass protests, severe cuts to public spending, more and more social injustice) would be a welcome change.

[Batman]

Why is it the NO lot are using scare tactics and the YES are there to inspire, saint mikey?