Without Pelle

[Goalie66]

Really enjoyed last nights game and beforehand I was concerned that without Pelle we would use Rodrigues as a replacement "target man". Instead we played to feet alnd the midfield had loads of options as the front movement was excellent. With Pelle our intentions tend to be telegraphed to the opposition. Last night we had ran at defenders through the middle and the wings.

[Batman]

say all the time.

we need to learn to play without him

 

he moves no where near as much as others would and as such, just hogs the middle of the front line. Hardly moves defenders around and allows for little forward line rotation

 

for the first half against United, has was all over blind and played a blinder, moved him all over the show....then it just stopped

 

whether that is his game or Ron telling him, who knows. But with Mane, and Rodriguez in the side, I really feel we would be more fluid up front without pelle.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

It's a nice way to play but we have to respect that we played against a team that gave us lots of space, had zero threat going forward, and didn't defend very well either.

 

When the team is lacking confidence it often reverts to safe balls up to Pelle and that makes us one dimensional. But when we have more verve as a team we mix it up well and Pelle contributes a lot to that.

 

Last night was a good confidence boost but I think Pelle is still very important to the way we play and must start unless he is in a really poor patch of form or is shattered.

[shurlock]

It's a nice way to play but we have to respect that we played against a team that gave us lots of space, had zero threat going forward, and didn't defend very well either.

 

When the team is lacking confidence it often reverts to safe balls up to Pelle and that makes us one dimensional. But when we have more verve as a team we mix it up well and Pelle contributes a lot to that.

 

Last night was a good confidence boost but I think Pelle is still very important to the way we play and must start unless he is in a really poor patch of form or is shattered.

 

Not sure it's just the opposition. After all, we set up in a similar way against Chelsea at their place and it worked pretty well for large swathes of the match. The fact is whether we're high or low on confidence, we're more static and predictable with Pelle in the side. That said, on pure merit and form, now wouldnt be the time to drop Pelle who has been excellent. if only we had more movement and dynamism from ACM/CM: it would help offset some of the limits of Pelle's game while retaining his undoubted qualities...

Edited 24 September, 2015 by shurlock

[angelman]

say all the time.

we need to learn to play without him

 

he moves no where near as much as others would and as such, just hogs the middle of the front line. Hardly moves defenders around and allows for little forward line rotation

 

for the first half against United, has was all over blind and played a blinder, moved him all over the show....then it just stopped

 

whether that is his game or Ron telling him, who knows. But with Mane, and Rodriguez in the side, I really feel we would be more fluid up front without pelle.

 

I know - he's crap. Only scored 6 goals in the 10 competitive games that he has played this season.

 

As for Utd, did you not notice him right near the end trying to win the ball back and ending up on our goal line giving a corner away, while the likes of Shlong were ambling about the half way line?

[Batman]

I know - he's crap. Only scored 6 goals in the 10 competitive games that he has played this season.

 

As for Utd, did you not notice him right near the end trying to win the ball back and ending up on our goal line giving a corner away, while the likes of Shlong were ambling about the half way line?

 

he is not crap. but i think we have plenty of scope for pelle not to play every single game and for the majority of it when not ruled out by injury or suspension

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Not sure it's just the opposition. After all, we set up in a similar way against Chelsea at their place and it worked pretty well for large swathes of the match. That said, on pure merit and form, now wouldnt be the time to drop Pelle.

 

From memory I think at Chelsea we played a flat 4-4-2 (Mane and Long up front with Davis and Tadic wide) so that was a bit different to last night? I think it is good to have options but I think our best team has Pelle in it.

[Shance]

Pelle is an excellent striker for us and is fast becoming my favorite saints player. I like the fact that we can mix things things up in the future and not playing him is an option depending on the opposition but we need to remember that we were playing MK Dons. There aren't many PL teams that will defend as high up the pitch as they did. It was suicide.

[shurlock]

From memory I think at Chelsea we played a flat 4-4-2 (Mane and Long up front with Davis and Tadic wide) so that was a bit different to last night? I think it is good to have options but I think our best team has Pelle in it.

 

The formation was different; but the emphasis on getting the ball to feet, the frontmen running the channels and dragging defenders out of position was similar.

[doddisalegend]

Away from home prehaps we should look to play without Pelle and utilise the pace some of our squad have to exploit the counter attack ( unless we are playing west 10 men behind the ball brom away)

[Leicestersaint]

It would be nice to have a Plan B (without Pelle) and use it every now and again.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

The formation was different; but the emphasis on getting the ball to feet, the frontmen running the channels and dragging defenders out of position was similar.

 

Yep I agree.

[Saint Garrett]

You dont get the space we had last night in the Prem....the amount of times Juanmi/Mane/JRod/Davis/Gaston all got the ball in the no10 position turned without being challenged and we able to pick a pass through the gaps between the CB's or the CB's and FB's. Great to watch though, but Pelle has started this season on fire.

[ant]

Away from home prehaps we should look to play without Pelle and utilise the pace some of our squad have to exploit the counter attack ( unless we are playing west 10 men behind the ball brom away)

 

Now I don't agree with dropping Pelle on the basis of last night, nor that we play better without him - but there may be something in this. The vast majority of Pelle's goals for us come at home. What would need to be established is whether that's because the way we play away doesn't suit him so well and whether any of our other strikers can reap better returns on the road.

 

In short, playing a bit more 'horses for courses' rather than inking Graziano's name on the teamsheet regardless.

[Saint_clark]

Long is actually a better header of the ball for me, but Pelles overall threat is better.

[Pancake]

It comes down to horses for courses doesn't it? If Ron thinks the oppo will allow us to play a certain way or wants us to dictate the way the games goes he will play who he thinks is best.

 

At best this will allow us to be flexible and more dynamic that last season when things aren't working.

 

At worst, it gives him a selection headache when people are all on form.

[Fabrice29]

You dont get the space we had last night in the Prem....the amount of times Juanmi/Mane/JRod/Davis/Gaston all got the ball in the no10 position turned without being challenged and we able to pick a pass through the gaps between the CB's or the CB's and FB's. Great to watch though, but Pelle has started this season on fire.

 

Exactly this. Laughable to think that anyone thinks we'll have that time and space in the Premier League. Pelle's hold up play brings us something we don't have in the team and it's vital.

[shurlock]

Exactly this. Laughable to think that anyone thinks we'll have that time and space in the Premier League. Pelle's hold up play brings us something we don't have in the team and it's vital.

 

Yep, pal. So laughable we played well without Pelle at Stamford Bridge last season.

[so22saint]

say all the time.

we need to learn to play without him

 

he moves no where near as much as others would and as such, just hogs the middle of the front line. Hardly moves defenders around and allows for little forward line rotation

 

for the first half against United, has was all over blind and played a blinder, moved him all over the show....then it just stopped

 

whether that is his game or Ron telling him, who knows. But with Mane, and Rodriguez in the side, I really feel we would be more fluid up front without pelle.

 

Don't agree over all - however I do agree with the United comment and I think it was because he hurt himself in a clash of shins - Ron should have noticed. I was surprised when he emerged at half time to be honest

[Shance]

You dont get the space we had last night in the Prem....the amount of times Juanmi/Mane/JRod/Davis/Gaston all got the ball in the no10 position turned without being challenged and we able to pick a pass through the gaps between the CB's or the CB's and FB's. Great to watch though, but Pelle has started this season on fire.

 

There are a few instances were you will. Villa 6-1 and sunderland 8-0 are prime examples of it. I agree though, it's a rare occurrence.

[Lighthouse]

I don't think Long has scored against a team not in the relegation zone for us yet. Certainly Leicester and Burnley last year, Newcastle this year and I think Villa were too.

 

He shouldn't be starting Premier League games, no matter how 'fluid' his movement is. IMO the front 4 should be Pelle, J Rod behind, Mané right and Tadic left.

[The9]

say all the time.

we need to learn to play without him

 

he moves no where near as much as others would and as such, just hogs the middle of the front line. Hardly moves defenders around and allows for little forward line rotation

 

for the first half against United, has was all over blind and played a blinder, moved him all over the show....then it just stopped

 

whether that is his game or Ron telling him, who knows. But with Mane, and Rodriguez in the side, I really feel we would be more fluid up front without pelle.

 

Pelle's movement is excellent, he spends a lot of time linking midfield and creates space for one of the supporting 3 midfielders to push in behind him, AND he also gets into the box to offer a threat after he's laid it off, which was the bit of Lambert's game that was sorely lacking. He was carrying a knock in the second half after a couple of collisions so it's hardly a surprise his workrate dropped off - for the first time this season.

 

Agreed that we need to know how to play without him, but we all know Long and Rodriguez can play up top already, and stuffing a Championship side in bad form doesn't really make that argument any stronger. I suspect we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, but I can also see that, irrespective of Pelle's ability, a less rigid position up top and having 4 fluid players without a key centre forward position would be very difficult to defend. A 4-6-0 (or more accurately 4-2-4-0) could bring back the attacking swarm we had under Pochettino, but with someone actually running where Lambert used to amble about.

 

Of course, I'm not keen on False 9s.

[igsey]

I think Pelle is perfectly capable of fitting in to the style of play we saw last night - quick balls in to feet and so on. For whatever reason, we tend to lump it up top more often with Pelle, but that is presumably the way the team is coached. I think Pelle could be at least as good as Long in this style of play, but he gives us the option of punting it up top when necessary. I think it's more a coaching issue than a personnel issue.

[the saint in winchester]

It would be nice to have a Plan B (without Pelle) and use it every now and again.

 

LIKE! We are debating whether Pelle in or out, how to play around him. But can we just agree on this post?! We have been a bit reliant on him, and last night showed us there is more than one way to skin a rabbit.

[ant]

Pelle's movement is excellent, he spends a lot of time linking midfield and creates space for one of the supporting 3 midfielders to push in behind him, AND he also gets into the box to offer a threat after he's laid it off, which was the bit of Lambert's game that was sorely lacking. He was carrying a knock in the second half after a couple of collisions so it's hardly a surprise his workrate dropped off - for the first time this season.

 

Exactly. Pelle doesn't get nearly enough credit for his workrate. Haven't checked the most recent stats, but in the first half of last season he covered more ground than any other PL striker.

 

On Sunday, there was an occasion in the second half where Graziano sprinted into the United half, chasing down from the front. Must have run a good 60-70 yards at full-pelt. He jogged back to catch his breath, at which point a ball was played over the top from midfield. Given that Pelle was a) never going to get to it and b) still offside, it was absolutely pointless to waste any further energy. Yet one of the masterminds behind me was apoplectic; effing and blinding, calling a lazy this-that-and-the-other.

 

Lots of fans seem to pick up on individual moments without considering context. I know you can't watch the movements of all 11 players at all time but keeping track of the ones currently involved in play really shouldn't be that difficult.

[The9]

I think Pelle is perfectly capable of fitting in to the style of play we saw last night - quick balls in to feet and so on. For whatever reason, we tend to lump it up top more often with Pelle, but that is presumably the way the team is coached. I think Pelle could be at least as good as Long in this style of play, but he gives us the option of punting it up top when necessary. I think it's more a coaching issue than a personnel issue.

 

I think if we play to feet rather than early high balls into the hole with a striker dropping in and winning it in the air then we have better choices than Pelle in that role.

 

It's a very similar problem to the one we used to have with Lambert, the system falls apart without the key player in that role and we don't have a replacement with the same skillset - there is a difference in that we have competent replacements in Long and Rodriguez with other strengths, but scoring lots against MK Dons doesn't really prove anything other than that MK are poor at the moment.

[The9]

Exactly. Pelle doesn't get nearly enough credit for his workrate. Haven't checked the most recent stats, but in the first half of last season he covered more ground than any other PL striker.

 

On Sunday, there was an occasion in the second half where Graziano sprinted into the United half, chasing down from the front. Must have run a good 60-70 yards at full-pelt. He jogged back to catch his breath, at which point a ball was played over the top from midfield. Given that Pelle was a) never going to get to it and b) still offside, it was absolutely pointless to waste any further energy. Yet one of the masterminds behind me was apoplectic; effing and blinding, calling a lazy this-that-and-the-other.

 

Lots of fans seem to pick up on individual moments without considering context. I know you can't watch the movements of all 11 players at all time but keeping track of the ones currently involved in play really shouldn't be that difficult.

 

Yeah, I remember the "Pelle is in an offside position but idiots are berating him for not going for the ball" thing, hadn't realised the context of the long run before though.

[Harry_SFC]

I think there are times away from home where we could use Long upfront on his own and play into the channels a bit more, like we did at Stamford Bridge last season. Not in every game obviously but I think it can work in certain games.

[shurlock]

Exactly. Pelle doesn't get nearly enough credit for his workrate. Haven't checked the most recent stats, but in the first half of last season he covered more ground than any other PL striker.

 

On Sunday, there was an occasion in the second half where Graziano sprinted into the United half, chasing down from the front. Must have run a good 60-70 yards at full-pelt. He jogged back to catch his breath, at which point a ball was played over the top from midfield. Given that Pelle was a) never going to get to it and b) still offside, it was absolutely pointless to waste any further energy. Yet one of the masterminds behind me was apoplectic; effing and blinding, calling a lazy this-that-and-the-other.

 

Lots of fans seem to pick up on individual moments without considering context. I know you can't watch the movements of all 11 players at all time but keeping track of the ones currently involved in play really shouldn't be that difficult.

 

Workrate and movement are completely different things.

[ant]

Workrate and movement are completely different things.

 

They are. But Pelle's movement can be excellent too - was against United. It was entirely responsible for crafting his chance to make it 2-0, when his shot just clipped the post rather than sneaking in.

[doddisalegend]

Exactly this. Laughable to think that anyone thinks we'll have that time and space in the Premier League. Pelle's hold up play brings us something we don't have in the team and it's vital.

 

 

Pelle also makes us predictable he spends 90% of the game occupying the same area of the pitch, with his back to goal, if the opposition CB can cope with Pelle's physicality they get an easy game. Now imagine being the same centre back with Long, Mane and Jrod constantly changing position and running in behind you at pace.

 

I like Pelle he is good at what he does and gets goals but I don't think his name should be first on the team sheet week in week out regardless of the opposition.

[sadoldgit]

LIKE! We are debating whether Pelle in or out, how to play around him. But can we just agree on this post?! We have been a bit reliant on him, and last night showed us there is more than one way to skin a rabbit.

 

But a rabbit with one eye, one leg and myxomatosis.

[Wade Garrett]

Pelle is in his best form since signing. Grafting hard as well.

 

I have always rated Long, and hopefully Jay is finding his form.

 

We have decent options.

[Lighthouse]

On the subject of strikers not being mobile enough, another 90 minutes without a goal for Lambert. He's scored once in his last 30 games, against Villa.

[supersonic]

Exactly. Pelle doesn't get nearly enough credit for his workrate. Haven't checked the most recent stats, but in the first half of last season he covered more ground than any other PL striker.

 

On Sunday, there was an occasion in the second half where Graziano sprinted into the United half, chasing down from the front. Must have run a good 60-70 yards at full-pelt. He jogged back to catch his breath, at which point a ball was played over the top from midfield. Given that Pelle was a) never going to get to it and b) still offside, it was absolutely pointless to waste any further energy. Yet one of the masterminds behind me was apoplectic; effing and blinding, calling a lazy this-that-and-the-other.

 

Lots of fans seem to pick up on individual moments without considering context. I know you can't watch the movements of all 11 players at all time but keeping track of the ones currently involved in play really shouldn't be that difficult.

 

They are. But Pelle's movement can be excellent too - was against United. It was entirely responsible for crafting his chance to make it 2-0, when his shot just clipped the post rather than sneaking in.

 

Whilst it was pleasing to see him run back and make a challenge at the end of the game, I suggest you re-watch the first United goal and watch a certain striker who "doesn't get enough credit for his workrate" completely bottle a straight-forward header with a United midfielder (the ball then finds it way to Martial who does the rest...).

 

Whilst some of his movement is decent, his attitude stinks. He's forever moaning at other people for every slight mistake. The tracking-back against United is one of the very few moments I remember him actually busting a testicle for the side.

 

We certainly do need to learn to play without him. As others have pointed out, he's only scored 2 PL goals away from SMS, I don't think he fits into our style of play away from home.

[doddisalegend]

Saw this on the BBC Swansea pre-match article

 

Graziano Pelle is expected to overcome a foot injury but the game comes too soon for Jordy Clasie.

 

Wasn't aware he was injured guess he would have played against MK Dons otherwise and this thread wouldn't exist.

[SaintZamboni]

With 'quick transitions' being the current vogue in the Premier League I can see the front 4 from the MK Dons working for us away from home.

[the saint in winchester]

With 'quick transitions' being the current vogue in the Premier League I can see the front 4 from the MK Dons working for us away from home.

 

Yes, away from home, we can play on the break, and then our 3 'speedy gonzalez's are in their element.

[SaintZamboni]

Yes, away from home, we can play on the break, and then our 3 'speedy gonzalez's are in their element.

 

No no no, we play with quick transitions! It sounds so much more stylish than on the break!

[The9]

No no no, we play with quick transitions! It sounds so much more stylish than on the break!

 

It's also not the same thing.

 

Transitions can happen anywhere on the pitch, breaks tend to have to come from defensive positions.

[ant]

Whilst it was pleasing to see him run back and make a challenge at the end of the game, I suggest you re-watch the first United goal and watch a certain striker who "doesn't get enough credit for his workrate" completely bottle a straight-forward header with a United midfielder (the ball then finds it way to Martial who does the rest...).

 

Whilst some of his movement is decent, his attitude stinks. He's forever moaning at other people for every slight mistake. The tracking-back against United is one of the very few moments I remember him actually busting a testicle for the side.

 

We certainly do need to learn to play without him. As others have pointed out, he's only scored 2 PL goals away from SMS, I don't think he fits into our style of play away from home.

 

Can't see that as bottling. He's gone for what he appears to have thought a simple header, but has been comprehensively out-maneuvered by Schneiderlin (who, it has to be said, has always won a daft percentage of his aerial battles). Never mind the terrible clearance beforehand, that Mata was offside, or the sketchy defending in the box.

 

He's passionate. He cares. Sometimes that can spill over into being critical but generally I see a man trying to gee up his team mates.

 

As I said above, I agree that it may be wise to look at other options away from home.

[SaintZamboni]

It's also not the same thing.

 

Transitions can happen anywhere on the pitch, breaks tend to have to come from defensive positions.

 

Like the way you transitioned my light hearted joke comment into something else through pedantry, can happen anywhere in a thread.

[The9]

Like the way you transitioned my light hearted joke comment into something else through pedantry, can happen anywhere in a thread.

 

There's a hyphen in light-hearted, you know.

[kermitsaint]

Pelle needs to be an option to suit certain teams . We need to explore other options to exploit the talents of our other players .

Pelle divides opinions because he is easily nullified by certain styles of defence . Koemans inability to explore other options exacerbates the negative opinion .

 

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[The9]

Pelle needs to be an option to suit certain teams . We need to explore other options to exploit the talents of our other players .

Pelle divides opinions because he is easily nullified by certain styles of defence . Koemans inability to explore other options exacerbates the negative opinion .

 

Which "certain styles of defence" are they then?

[kermitsaint]

Larger CB's who are happy to be physical . Pelle is generally static .

I didn't see the Man U game as we are in Malaysia. Hard to picture Pelle sprinting his guts and and dragging the defenders around but its a nice change . I don't rate him , its not a secret .

He can be effective at times but I find him frustrating to watch .

 

I realize certain posters will use this to bite but players often divide opinion .

 

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[The9]

Larger CB's who are happy to be physical . Pelle is generally static .

I didn't see the Man U game as we are in Malaysia. Hard to picture Pelle sprinting his guts and and dragging the defenders around but its a nice change . I don't rate him , its not a secret .

He can be effective at times but I find him frustrating to watch .

 

I realize certain posters will use this to bite but players often divide opinion .

 

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Pelle is not "generally static". Pretty much every measure of every match this season has shown him to be the complete opposite of static.

[kermitsaint]

Pelle is not "generally static". Pretty much every measure of every match this season has shown him to be the complete opposite of static.

There you go . Players divide opinion . I disagree with you of course but respect your opinion .

The more Pelle struggles to score the more static he becomes . Aimless flicks , back heels to no one and endless gesticulating with his hands .

 

He is a player who plays well when he is confident . Absolutely hopeless when he isn't hence why we need to develop a formation which doesn't require what he offers .

 

Being the first name of the team sheet regardless of form is a very poor way to approach proffessional football

 

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[saint97]

Pretty ridiculous discussion by some people on here. He's probably been our best player this season and was awesome last Sunday. Pellè has to play.