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Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum  

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  1. 1. Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

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I am aware how it's spelt. No it means the ability to understand one's sources, recognise their limitations and think critically through their implications. In essence, the exact opposite to what you've done on this thread, pal.

So you didn't read the paper then, pal...

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I knowit is exhilarating to win: to sit up in the palm tree, survey the turmoil below and feel a sense of empowerment. After a while though, a palm tree is an uncomfortable place. It’s easy to poke holes in the status quo. It’s easy to promise people the moon (assuming one has the requisite pragmatic attitude to telling the truth). But now the Leave camp must lead both its supporters and the British people as a whole down from the palm tree. The problem is there is no ladder. More fundamentally there is no clarity whether to go North, South, East or West of the tree.

 

So far all the Bexiteers have managed to do is to own up that many promises will remain unfilled. But that will have to change soon. Otherwise, like a coconut, one simply falls out of the tree.

 

Thanks for cheering me up with your imaginative analogy where we Brexiteers are all up that abundant native tree, the Coconut Palm. Global warming has obviously crept up on us without us noticing. We managed to get up the Palm Tree, but somehow cannot get down because we do not have a ladder. Presumably we must have shinned up the tree and don't have the ability to shin back down again, or perhaps we rather stupidly kicked the ladder away. But the additional problem is that despite attaining a clear view of the surrounding geography from this lofty perch, the experience is nevertheless somehow disorientating when one descends to terra firma once more.

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I'm still waiting for the emergency budget we were promised...

 

I think you will have to wait until November before the post BREXIT budget when we have a new PM and Chancellor and the OBR see how much tax revenue will be lost this year and what the figures for growth are for the future.

 

If they are less than what was expected in April which is highly likely taxes will have to be raised or public spending cut

 

GDP figures for the first three months of the year were less than expected due to the concern of BREXIT and the next figures come out at the end of July for the second quarter of the year

 

It will not be until the end of October that we know the figures for the first quarter of BREXIT so that is another reason I think you will have to wait until November for the budget.

 

Of course they could stimulate the economy like Labour did after the Banking crash in 2008 by reducing VAT and increasing investment but that will increase borrowing and this Government has passed a law probably for political reasons to ensure that the budget is balanced by 2020.

 

I think Lamont stimulated the economy after the Tory ERM crisis and that worked quite well as money was paid back by 2001 when Labour were in power after two of the very few years the budget has ever been balanced.

 

With this potential Financial Crisis and the one in 1992 I feel that the Tories are not that good with the country's finance

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I'm still waiting for the emergency budget we were promised...

 

That went when CMD resigned. It's one thing delivering a budget to the people but you have to get it through Parliament too.

 

The country needs a plan. We know that we have chosen to leave but we don't know which door to take and which road to follow afterwards (avoiding falling coconuts on the way). Some paths will turn out to be blocked..

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Total b0ll0x. To quote from their website:

 

 

 

 

Quite like the EU, then, except with no freedom of movement.

 

Anyway, you didn't get to vote in the referendum, so back in your box...

 

My point was not about the referendum, but the nature of the Heritage Foundation. It is naive of you to think that just because the Foundation self-identifies as being "conservative" on its website, that it actually makes them so. I suggest you do some research into the difference between conservatism and neo-liberalism.

 

And if my residence in Canada means I can't comment on the referendum (which, as I said, was not the issue anyway), then your residence in the UK makes you ineligible to comment on the nature and activities of the Heritage Foundation.

Edited by Hamilton Saint
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And if my residence in Canada means I can't comment on the referendum (which, as I said, was not the issue anyway), then your residence in the UK makes you ineligible to comment on the nature and activities of the Heritage Foundation.

I've got a green card, matey and my wife is American, so I think it does.

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Make up your mind which side of the Atlantic you're standing on. Having a foot in each continent can get uncomfortable after a while.
Not half as uncomfortable as when Russia invades Ukraine. Then we'll see how the ex-nazis, anti-capitalists and surrender monkeys treat the UK then.
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If after reading this story you find yourself unconcerned by its implications ... well then you probably don't understand the gravity of the situation we now face:

 

EU Trade Commissioner: No trade talks until full Brexit - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36678222

But they need us more than we need them, especially those German car manufacturers. The Brexiters have consistently told us that.

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But they need us more than we need them, especially those German car manufacturers. The Brexiters have consistently told us that.

 

Odd that Brexiteers never mentioned this "Under EU law, the bloc cannot negotiate a separate trade deal with one of its own members, hence the commissioner's insistence that the UK must first leave. It is also against EU law for a member to negotiate its own trade deals with outsiders, which means the UK cannot start doing this until after it has left the EU"

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Odd that Brexiteers never mentioned this "Under EU law, the bloc cannot negotiate a separate trade deal with one of its own members, hence the commissioner's insistence that the UK must first leave. It is also against EU law for a member to negotiate its own trade deals with outsiders, which means the UK cannot start doing this until after it has left the EU"

Personally, I think that's a load of cr@p. Of course we can negotiate trade deals now. Maybe we can't sign them, but I can't believe we can't negotiate them. Anyway, what are they going to do if we do? Throw us out of the EU? Invade us?

 

Just a bunch of jobsworths that we didn't vote for...

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Personally, I think that's a load of cr@p. Of course we can negotiate trade deals now. Maybe we can't sign them, but I can't believe we can't negotiate them. Anyway, what are they going to do if we do? Throw us out of the EU? Invade us?

 

Just a bunch of jobsworths that we didn't vote for...

 

Its setup for a Mexican standoff. Britain wont want to leave before negotiating because we hold the power that way - and the EU wont want to negotiate before we leave, because they then hold the power.

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Personally, I think that's a load of cr@p. Of course we can negotiate trade deals now. Maybe we can't sign them, but I can't believe we can't negotiate them. Anyway, what are they going to do if we do? Throw us out of the EU? Invade us?

 

Just a bunch of jobsworths that we didn't vote for...

 

This was my immediate thought. As you say, what are they going to do about it?

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This was my immediate thought. As you say, what are they going to do about it?
Screw them. Let's join NAFTA. 440 million customers, sell in dollars, not cr@ppy euros and no political interference. An added bonus that one of the members is a commonwealth country. You only have to go to Southampton Docks to see where the majority of the JLR cars are shipped and it's not the IoW.
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Screw them. Let's join NAFTA. 440 million customers, sell in dollars, not cr@ppy euros and no political interference. An added bonus that one of the members is a commonwealth country. You only have to go to Southampton Docks to see where the majority of the JLR cars are shipped and it's not the IoW.

 

Cracking idea as ever.

 

Britain’s carmakers ever more reliant on European market for sales

 

Figures released on Thursday showed that factories up and down the country — from Nissan in Sunderland to Rolls-Royce in Goodwood — built 1.59m vehicles in 2015, the highest number since 2005, according to the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders. Factories were driven by a 3 per cent rise in exports to 1.2m, the highest total on record. The UK’s carmakers — now almost exclusively foreign-owned businesses — export nearly four out of every five cars they produce.

 

But the figures will raise fears over the industry’s increasing reliance on mainland Europe ahead of a referendum on the UK’s membership of the EU. The bloc accounted for 57.5 per cent of all British car exports last year, versus 53 per cent in 2014. Car buyers on the continent, where car sales are finally in solid recovery, played an important role last year in helping the UK’s car manufacturers offset sharply falling vehicle exports to China — down by more than a third in 2015 — and Russia, which fell by almost 70 per cent.

 

https://next.ft.com/content/b2445b02-bec9-11e5-846f-79b0e3d20eaf

Edited by buctootim
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The idea that we can somehow give up on a market that represents almost half of our total exports does not sound like a especialy reasonable thing to say.

 

Mind you, the British people seem to have entered into one of those periodic episodes when they adandon their hard won reputation for 'reasonableness' and enter into a period of extremism. So let's relocate to the Americas then!

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The idea that we can somehow give up on a market that represents almost half of our total exports does not sound like a especialy reasonable thing to say.

 

Mind you, the British people seem to have entered into one of those periodic episodes when they adandon their hard won reputation for 'reasonableness' and enter into a period of extremism. So let's relocate to the Americas then!

You really need to understand that you don't need a trade treaty to trade. The EU doesn't have one with either the US or China, but we could.

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You really need to understand that you don't need a trade treaty to trade. The EU doesn't have one with either the US or China, but we could.

 

We have never had a trade deal with the US.

 

There's an enormous difference between the Single Market and a traiff-free trade deal. But you knew this already.

 

I like America. State #51 would be ok by me.

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You really need to understand that you don't need a trade treaty to trade. The EU doesn't have one with either the US or China, but we could.

 

I understand perfectly well thank you that cross-channel trade is older than recorded history and will doutless continue far into the foreseeable future. The real concern here is whether that trade will go into relative decline, or not, as a result of Brexit. If it takes a 'lost decade' of arguing before we get back to somewhere near where are today vis a vis the EU Single Market then many would say that cannot be a good thing for either UK PLC or the EU.

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Personally, I think that's a load of cr@p. Of course we can negotiate trade deals now. Maybe we can't sign them, but I can't believe we can't negotiate them. Anyway, what are they going to do if we do? Throw us out of the EU? Invade us?

 

Just a bunch of jobsworths that we didn't vote for...

 

I expect the EU Trade Commissioner knows what she is talking about but whatever happens as the EU is democratic all other 27 members have to ratify the trade deal after they agree it but why would they start with a trade deal if the UK was trying to get some deal on the single market?

 

Of course if the single market deal does not happen then a trade deal will have to take place I am not an expert on Trade Deals I dont know if you are but they do take a long time from what I see as he EU is in charge on trade policy. Trade negotiations with non-EU countries are conducted by the European Commission on the basis of a negotiating mandate from the member countries' trade ministers.

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Dutch companies are taking a hit because of Brexit as the orders from Britain are decreasing. In a crisis meeting with the Dutch Minister of Foreign Trade they pleaded for flexibility from the government in order to get their business going on. They understand there's a political aspect but they do hope this won't mean that it's going to affect their business for a long time. The Dutch export to Britain is 38 billion euro's, the import from Britain is 21 billion euro's so I guess the Dutch government will back these companies. The question of course is if the frustrated officials in Brussels care about this plead. Maybe they will when especially the German companies are also in trouble...

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Dutch companies are taking a hit because of Brexit as the orders from Britain are decreasing. In a crisis meeting with the Dutch Minister of Foreign Trade they pleaded for flexibility from the government in order to get their business going on. They understand there's a political aspect but they do hope this won't mean that it's going to affect their business for a long time. The Dutch export to Britain is 38 billion euro's, the import from Britain is 21 billion euro's so I guess the Dutch government will back these companies. The question of course is if the frustrated officials in Brussels care about this plead. Maybe they will when especially the German companies are also in trouble...

 

Yes BREXIT has not only has ****ed our economy it is likely to **** many other countries too

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Dutch companies are taking a hit because of Brexit as the orders from Britain are decreasing. In a crisis meeting with the Dutch Minister of Foreign Trade they pleaded for flexibility from the government in order to get their business going on. They understand there's a political aspect but they do hope this won't mean that it's going to affect their business for a long time. The Dutch export to Britain is 38 billion euro's, the import from Britain is 21 billion euro's so I guess the Dutch government will back these companies. The question of course is if the frustrated officials in Brussels care about this plead. Maybe they will when especially the German companies are also in trouble...

 

That's the problem we are going to have, there is a disconnect between the democratic will of the people and the EU officials who are not really accountable and have their own agenda - keep the EU gravy train going at all costs.

 

The lack of any negotiation means the UK government either has to grow a pair of balls and press the 50 button or try and go back on the refurendum result somehow. A general election with a clear mandate is one way I suppose. As leaving the EU would probably mean the break up of the UK maybe another refurendum 'do you want to be in the UK in the EU, or Split up out' would be a fair question. I doubt many who voted leave, voted for the break up of the UK.

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Of course if the single market deal does not happen then a trade deal will have to take place I am not an expert on Trade Deals I dont know if you are but they do take a long time from what I see as he EU is in charge on trade policy..

As I read it if after the 2 years an agreement on trade cannot be agreed we are cut away and then you use WTO tariffs. Not a good thing. At the moment I wonder if we are in a Phoney war and are in denial.

It seems to me people are taking a deep breath and think we have pushed the problem down the road for 2 years.

I have a mixed view from some very wealthy clients, some are going to relocate their business best as they can into Europe and the USA while i spoke to another who sells yachts to people like Roman Ambramovich and he tells me we are going to be fine and that Europe needs our business.

I think most really dont know what is in store

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I doubt many thought there would be the prospect of Gove for PM.

 

Gove wont be PM. Boris wont be PM, there is no emergency hack and slash, doomsday budget, there is not going to be a war in europe, German and French businesses very much want a proper trade deal with the UK, the FTSE is up on a 10 month high, 20 new banks now want to open in London.

 

House Speaker in the US, Paul Ryan calls for US-UK free trade agreement…

 

'We need to emphasize that they are our indispensable ally. We have a special relationship, and I think that does mean we should have a trade agreement with … Great Britain'

 

 

life carries on as normal. Unless you get caught up in the London-based Pantomime of it all

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Very interesting ten minute listen here from John Gray.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07hj8bv#play

 

Yes a thought-provoking piece worth listening to.

 

However I'm not so sure you can really draw some line between the people's need for government to provide them with sense of security and prosperity because the two ideas are closely related - from my own experience I can tell you that there are few more insecure situations than finding yourself being made redundent. As for fears of the UK breaking up being exaggerated, well I can only hope that he is right because it looks to me like we are on the brink of just that happening.

 

Time will tell - it always does.

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Gove wont be PM. Boris wont be PM, there is no emergency hack and slash, doomsday budget, there is not going to be a war in europe, German and French businesses very much want a proper trade deal with the UK, the FTSE is up on a 10 month high, 20 new banks now want to open in London.

 

House Speaker in the US, Paul Ryan calls for US-UK free trade agreement…

 

 

 

 

life carries on as normal. Unless you get caught up in the London-based Pantomime of it all

I exxpect they felt much the same on the Titanic.

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The US-UK special relationship is only in the minds of the British, the US doesn't not care about us. We are the convenient late night booty call, the US is instead checking out various Asian chicks, but promises to call us someday. As for free trade with the US, not happening, if there is an anti free trade feeling politically, they are not making exceptions for us. In fact if we have an inward looking US instead we risk being left out completely as irrelevant. The whole but we are the 5th biggest economy line looks a little weak after the meltdown left us in 6th behind the freaking French.

 

Europe never helped itself so it doesn't really surprise me with the result the election. But I hope everyone is ready to go it alone.

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Yes a thought-provoking piece worth listening to.

 

However I'm not so sure you can really draw some line between the people's need for government to provide them with sense of security and prosperity because the two ideas are closely related - from my own experience I can tell you that there are few more insecure situations than finding yourself being made redundent. As for fears of the UK breaking up being exaggerated, well I can only hope that he is right because it looks to me like we are on the brink of just that happening.

 

Time will tell - it always does.

 

 

One of the points he made was that the EU will only negotiate with the UK regarding future membership, effectively ruling out Scottish membership. Junckers has said that, as have other eurocrats. I'd say that makes it far less likely that the Scots will bother with another referendum.

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The US-UK special relationship is only in the minds of the British, the US doesn't not care about us. We are the convenient late night booty call, the US is instead checking out various Asian chicks, but promises to call us someday. As for free trade with the US, not happening, if there is an anti free trade feeling politically, they are not making exceptions for us. In fact if we have an inward looking US instead we risk being left out completely as irrelevant. The whole but we are the 5th biggest economy line looks a little weak after the meltdown left us in 6th behind the freaking French.

 

Europe never helped itself so it doesn't really surprise me with the result the election. But I hope everyone is ready to go it alone.

http://heatst.com/uk/us-uk-trade-bill-in-congress-just-one-week-after-brexit-vote/

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One of the points he made was that the EU will only negotiate with the UK regarding future membership, effectively ruling out Scottish membership. Junckers has said that, as have other eurocrats. I'd say that makes it far less likely that the Scots will bother with another referendum.

 

I think he meant only negotiate with the UK whilst it is a member state, after we leave I expect it would be a different story.

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Good. He was a busted flush. Failed to get elected to UK parliament, disowned by UKIP's only MP, shunned by the Brexit campaign. Now says he wants his life back - but refuses to give up his well paid seat in the European parliament. Add hypocrite to the list.

 

He helped to achieve what he set out to do. When everyone laughed at him.

 

Farage and UKIP very much brought us the referendum

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He helped to achieve what he set out to do. When everyone laughed at him.

 

Farage and UKIP very much brought us the referendum

 

Very True but still a nasty racist campaign from him which even his only MP was ashamed of.

 

Without Bonking Boris the serial liar and Mr Gove the apparent drunk serial back stabber I doubt Farage would have been successful he was not even in the official LEAVE Campaign

 

Not sure Andrea is going to be that good [Leadsom’s] one-year stint from 2014-15 at the Treasury as City minister was seen inside 1 Horseguards Road as ‘a disaster’ by one official. ‘She was the worst minister we’ve ever had.’ Unlike Ms May, she has also not held down a cabinet job.

 

Ms Leadsom’s allies say that Mr Osborne blocked her promotion to the cabinet and after the last election the chancellor asked for her to be moved out of the Treasury. She was transferred by David Cameron to the energy department.

 

‘She found it difficult to understand issues or take decisions,’ said another Treasury official. ‘She was monomaniacal, seeing the EU as the source of every problem. She alienated officials by continually complaining about poor drafting.’

 

She also seems to have off shore accounts and appears as an ex banker a tax advoider as well

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Very True but still a nasty racist campaign from him which even his only MP was ashamed of.

 

Without Bonking Boris the serial liar and Mr Gove the apparent drunk serial back stabber I doubt Farage would have been successful he was not even in the official LEAVE Campaign

 

Not sure Andrea is going to be that good [Leadsom’s] one-year stint from 2014-15 at the Treasury as City minister was seen inside 1 Horseguards Road as ‘a disaster’ by one official. ‘She was the worst minister we’ve ever had.’ Unlike Ms May, she has also not held down a cabinet job.

 

Ms Leadsom’s allies say that Mr Osborne blocked her promotion to the cabinet and after the last election the chancellor asked for her to be moved out of the Treasury. She was transferred by David Cameron to the energy department.

 

‘She found it difficult to understand issues or take decisions,’ said another Treasury official. ‘She was monomaniacal, seeing the EU as the source of every problem. She alienated officials by continually complaining about poor drafting.’

 

She also seems to have off shore accounts and appears as an ex banker a tax advoider as well

 

Good to see the bitterness still burns strong in some.

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Does it end ?

 

Oh, it ends, but it's what happens at the end that's important: nothing. Hence the link.

 

On which subject, this thread seems to have drifted from what will happen to what should. The former is much more interesting.

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  • Lighthouse changed the title to Brexit - Post Match Reaction

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