England/Hungary/Racism Discussion (Split)

[Billy the Kidd]

12 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58432092

FIFA will sort it out ! 

It should be remembered that Oban has promoted an anti migrant policy in the last 2 elections in Hungary so it is no surprise that the Ultras do what they do . The eastern bloc was pretty racist in it's day and as we know Russia still is. Friends we know in Hungary are pretty anti Oban and his racist attitudes and his moves to take control of the judicial system although it's best not to mention the Roma people ......

I didn’t think there was any racist behaviour in the last World Cup, thought the Russians were very well behaved. 

[Lighthouse]

2 hours ago, Alanh said:

I think there are valid occasions for inflammatory gestures to be used to raise the profile of an issue.  I think the knee gesture falls into that category.  If it is generating a response that the 'Kick it out' type campaigns didn't achieve then it is being productive.  The gesture on it's own won't defeat racism and to think that it will is naive, but if it helps to create a culture where racist behaviour is hilighted and condemned then over time that type of overt behaviour will become less acceptable and less likely to occur.

The Kick it out Campaign has achieved anything you can reasonably expect from a gesture or slogan. There is nobody ‘more aware’ racism because of BLM, simply more emotive and confrontational. We’ve done the awareness, we’ve reached a point of almost hysteria whereby some random nobody posting on Twitter 5,000 miles away is now front page news. The world is quite unequivocally aware of racism, it’s now receives disproportionate exposure above all other crime. So now what? What’s the next step?

[Lighthouse]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

Odd view. I am not particularly a fan of the knee thing but saying because it gets negative reaction needs a rethink. That isn’t how protests work

Protests raise awareness of something which is currently mainstream but lacks the desired attitude of general population. In the days of Rosa Parks and MLK when there were federal laws requiring African Americans to sit separately on busses and use different restrooms, the need for that is obvious. What we have now is the equivalent of protesting murder or tax fraud. It’s wrong, everyone knows that. What we have now is the far more difficult proposition of what to do about people who know they’re not nice and don’t care.

[Jimmy_D]

6 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

The Kick it out Campaign has achieved anything you can reasonably expect from a gesture or slogan. There is nobody ‘more aware’ racism because of BLM, simply more emotive and confrontational. We’ve done the awareness, we’ve reached a point of almost hysteria whereby some random nobody posting on Twitter 5,000 miles away is now front page news. The world is quite unequivocally aware of racism, it’s now receives disproportionate exposure above all other crime. So now what? What’s the next step?

It’s not going to be fixed in our lifetime, not even close. All we can do is speak out against racism, as constantly as racism occurs, and make it as socially unacceptable as possible, by making the normal response to racism to be to speak out against it instead of ignore it. 

People aren’t going to change their views because of a slogan or a gesture, but friends and family confronting them might shift them slightly, or at least make them less likely to spread their views.

If the gestures against racism were to be stopped tomorrow, the most likely response as far as I can see would be that those that hold racist views would see it as vindication that they’re not in the wrong. For this reason alone there’s still a need for them.

We can at least leave the fight against it in a better state than we started it with.

 

[Alanh]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy_D said:

It’s not going to be fixed in our lifetime, not even close. All we can do is speak out against racism, as constantly as racism occurs, and make it as socially unacceptable as possible, by making the normal response to racism to be to speak out against it instead of ignore it. 

People aren’t going to change their views because of a slogan or a gesture, but friends and family confronting them might shift them slightly, or at least make them less likely to spread their views.

If the gestures against racism were to be stopped tomorrow, the most likely response as far as I can see would be that those that hold racist views would see it as vindication that they’re not in the wrong. For this reason alone there’s still a need for them.

We can at least leave the fight against it in a better state than we started it with.

 

This is the perfect answer.  Next time this discussion occurs on here please copy and paste this post.

[Turkish]

36 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

You know very well that many times players do hear it and if they do every player off every colour should unite and walk off. 
 

Any how I’m not engaging with you further, not with your views on this subject, and what I believe you are. It doesn’t sit right with me. 

So after calling me a prick with 1970s views you now don’t want to carry on because you don’t like my opinion. Such a lovely tolerant individual 🤣

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Billy the Kidd said:

That isn’t childish name calling. I said don’t be such a dick about it. Are you now going all woke on me as you’re called out for a bigot  😂 Oh the irony.

Deal with the subject Turkish, you clearly have an issue with the racist stuff being in the public eye and getting the attention it rightly deserves.
 

no one  says don’t get angry about white people getting abuse, yet still you fail to acknowledge the racist stuff is far worse and far more personal. 

I get it

We dont judge people on the colour of the skin but....

millionaire black guy gets abused. THIS IS DISGUSTING WE MUST END THIS AND HELP THEM

millionaire white guy gets abused, lets ignore it, it doesn't deserve any attention

Hungary - A country oppressed for years by a corrupt government is a backward country full of racists

Any african country - a country oppressed for years by corrupt government - THIS IS DIGUSTING WE MUST HELP THEM

The patronising outrage is scary but hilarious at the same time.

[Billy the Kidd]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

So after calling me a prick with 1970s views you now don’t want to carry on because you don’t like my opinion. Such a lovely tolerant individual 🤣

“Makes you come across as a bit of a prick”. 

Not really the same thing as calling you a prick, but that doesn’t fit your victim attitude.

I’ve made myself clear on why I won’t engage you, I’d imagine most on here can understand why, given your views. 

Now run along, I’m sure there are some re-runs of ‘In sickness and in Health’ available. 

[niceandfriendly]

[Turkish]

32 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

“Makes you come across as a bit of a prick”. 

Not really the same thing as calling you a prick, but that doesn’t fit your victim attitude.

I’ve made myself clear on why I won’t engage you, I’d imagine most on here can understand why, given your views. 

Now run along, I’m sure there are some re-runs of ‘In sickness and in Health’ available. 

 

 

Edited 3 September, 2021 by Turkish

[benjii]

8 minutes ago, Turkish said:

 

 

"I've opened your eyes, you're now colour blind".

[Sheaf Saint]

Oh goody. Yet another thread gets derailed by Turkish's crusade against wokeism. Woo-hoo!

[Turkish]

20 minutes ago, benjii said:

"I've opened your eyes, you're now colour blind".

Great tune.

[East Kent Saint]

2 hours ago, Turkish said:

I get it

We dont judge people on the colour of the skin but....

millionaire black guy gets abused. THIS IS DISGUSTING WE MUST END THIS AND HELP THEM

millionaire white guy gets abused, lets ignore it, it doesn't deserve any attention

Hungary - A country oppressed for years by a corrupt government is a backward country full of racists

Any african country - a country oppressed for years by corrupt government - THIS IS DIGUSTING WE MUST HELP THEM

The patronising outrage is scary but hilarious at the same time.

None of your ludicrous statements have any validity , as you well know , as I said before , just give it a rest .

Edited 3 September, 2021 by East Kent Saint

[hypochondriac]

5 hours ago, Alanh said:

I think there are valid occasions for inflammatory gestures to be used to raise the profile of an issue.  I think the knee gesture falls into that category.  If it is generating a response that the 'Kick it out' type campaigns didn't achieve then it is being productive.  The gesture on it's own won't defeat racism and to think that it will is naive, but if it helps to create a culture where racist behaviour is hilighted and condemned then over time that type of overt behaviour will become less acceptable and less likely to occur.

Are you suggesting that prior to the knee that overt racist behaviour wasn't condemned? Has knee taking seen an increase in condemnation for racist chanting at the football? 

[hypochondriac]

3 hours ago, Jimmy_D said:

It’s not going to be fixed in our lifetime, not even close. All we can do is speak out against racism, as constantly as racism occurs, and make it as socially unacceptable as possible, by making the normal response to racism to be to speak out against it instead of ignore it. 

People aren’t going to change their views because of a slogan or a gesture, but friends and family confronting them might shift them slightly, or at least make them less likely to spread their views.

If the gestures against racism were to be stopped tomorrow, the most likely response as far as I can see would be that those that hold racist views would see it as vindication that they’re not in the wrong. For this reason alone there’s still a need for them.

We can at least leave the fight against it in a better state than we started it with.

 

So knee taking before every game for the foreseeable future then? If stopping means the racists win then there's literally no time where it would be acceptable to stop. 

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Sheaf Saint said:

Oh goody. Yet another thread gets derailed by Turkish's crusade against wokeism. Woo-hoo!

Not for you as you've got me on ignore. 🙄

[Turkish]

49 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

None of your ludicrous statements have any validity , as you well know , as I said before , just give it a rest .

Give it a rest because the only opinion people want to hear in this place is what the media tell you to think.

[Billy the Kidd]

Or that other people realise what is going on, want things to change, and want to help do something about it.

Part of that is calling out things like the shit posts on this thread about how the white players suffered 😭

Never heard such horseshit suggesting people are following a media line, just because their views are different from these. Haven’t the 1950 called yet, asking for their bigoted opinions back

Edited 3 September, 2021 by Billy the Kidd

[Alanh]

53 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Are you suggesting that prior to the knee that overt racist behaviour wasn't condemned? Has knee taking seen an increase in condemnation for racist chanting at the football? 

First question - no, not at all, racist behaviour has been condemned for ages with varying degrees of 'cut-through' in the mainstream consciousness.

Second question - yes, I think it has helped to create a culture in which the amount and strength of condemnation of racist behaviour has increased.

[Turkish]

6 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

Or that other people realise what is going on, want things to change, and want to help do something about it.

Part of that is calling out things like the shit posts on this thread about how the white players suffered 😭

Never heard such horseshit suggesting people are following a media line, just because their views are different from these. Haven’t the 1950 called yet, asking for their bigoted opinions back

Of course you're following the media line, if it weren't for the media you wouldn't have known anything about it. 

[Billy the Kidd]

14 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Of course you're following the media line, if it weren't for the media you wouldn't have known anything about it. 

And whilst the media is one source of hearing about stuff, it doesn’t have too be exclusive, does it.

And you dont know what I am following, you simply cant make that judgement, can you.

And it still doesn’t make it wrong. It doesn’t mean people follow blindly to it, or do just feel superior by trying so hard to be different?

Ive tried hard to understand your view.

Ive not tried to change your view, as it is so far from my reality, and it isn’t my place to try to change it.

In trying to understand your view, the only things I can see is that white people count too, as in they were also abused. And that maybe this didnt happen, and that you are down playing the issues that are systematic in our society. IS this correct, or have I misinterpreted what you are saying, as it is pretty confusing.

Edited 3 September, 2021 by Billy the Kidd

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

And whilst the media is one source of hearing about stuff, it doesn’t have too be exclusive, does it.

And you dont know what I am following, you simply cant make that judgement, can you.

And it still doesn’t make it wrong. It doesn’t mean people follow blindly to it, or do just feel superior by trying so hard to be different?

Ive tried hard to understand your view.

Ive not tried to change your view, as it is so far from my reality, and it isn’t my place to try to change it.

In trying to understand your view, the only things I can see is that white people count too, as in they were also abused. And that maybe this didnt happen, and that you are down playing the issues that are systematic in our society. IS this correct, or have I misinterpreted what you are saying, as it is pretty confusing.

I can't speak for him but my guess is that he would dispute your assertion that British society is systemically racist and that his point about white people being abused suggests that its possible that the motive for aggression was not racist. I don't actually know as I didn't watch the game. 

[hypochondriac]

9 hours ago, StDunko said:

It would've been good if they didn't find any racism to report, but unfortunately, because there was racism, it was reported.

Perhaps we should be more concerned about the fact that there was racism, rather than whether or not the media had a predetermined narative that sadly came to fruition?

Why does it appear that some posters are more concerned about reporters doing their job, rather than the individuals making monkey noises at black players?

Personally I can see why a certain level of mistrust exists given the false narrative about hoards of English racists on the front of papers that turned out to be largely from abroad and the reporting of the mural graffiti that heavily implied it was racially motivated when in fact it was nothing of the sort. Again though I didn't watch the game so I have no idea but given that the England players and staff didn't hear it and that players or all skin colours were supposedly abused it's certainly possible that it's being exaggerated or the facts distorted by a media who have form. 

Could well have been some monkey chants though, there is a section of Hungarian fans who are sadly racist. 

[Saint_lambden]

6 hours ago, Turkish said:

How do they know to walk off when they dont hear it happening?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tguvObwKp7Y

20 seconds in. But please, do go on....

[Turkish]

13 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

And whilst the media is one source of hearing about stuff, it doesn’t have too be exclusive, does it.

And you dont know what I am following, you simply cant make that judgement, can you.

And it still doesn’t make it wrong. It doesn’t mean people follow blindly to it, or do just feel superior by trying so hard to be different?

Ive tried hard to understand your view.

Ive not tried to change your view, as it is so far from my reality, and it isn’t my place to try to change it.

In trying to understand your view, the only things I can see is that white people count too, as in they were also abused. And that maybe this didnt happen, and that you are down playing the issues that are systematic in our society. IS this correct, or have I misinterpreted what you are saying, as it is pretty confusing.

Your opinion of the incident is solely based on the media report because you didn’t see it, hear it and neither did anyone playing in the match. So you are purely lapping up the media narrative as the media were the only ones who heard it. Just because you don’t like that fact doesn’t make it untrue.

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, Saint_lambden said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tguvObwKp7Y

20 seconds in. But please, do go on....

 

3 minutes ago, Saint_lambden said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tguvObwKp7Y

20 seconds in. But please, do go on....

I never said it didn’t happen but still Strange how Harry Kane said he didn’t hear it when he was just yards away. Still you know best from your computer thousands of miles away 

Edited 3 September, 2021 by Turkish

[LiberalCommunist]

If these little hero's are still kneeling in Qatar, then they will have my full respect. Obviously not as much respect as actually making a stand and not attending an event that still supports slavery & injustice, but you know, whatever........

[hypochondriac]

34 minutes ago, Alanh said:

First question - no, not at all, racist behaviour has been condemned for ages with varying degrees of 'cut-through' in the mainstream consciousness.

Second question - yes, I think it has helped to create a culture in which the amount and strength of condemnation of racist behaviour has increased.

I think there's a moral panic about racism at the football and that it's in the interest of the media to exagerrate a problem that-whilst very real- is not anywhere near as large as some would have you believe. I think the problem of anonymous social media accounts sending abuse to celebrities and high profile persons is a social media problem not a football problem but it suits the media narrative to conflate the two things. I am yet to be convinced that racism in English professional football is any greater than racism in society in general and the evidence I have seen is that it is mercifully rare to hear racist chanting or abuse in English football stadia and when it is it is roundly condemned and life bans are handed out sharpish.

I don't think that taking the knee has seen more instances of condemnation of this sort of abuse. You could argue that it adds to the current culture of highlighting anything racial at any game of football and making it front page news-whether you think that's a positive thing or not- but I would suggest it's the result of this sort of thinking rather than the cause.

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

I think there's a moral panic about racism at the football and that it's in the interest of the media to exagerrate a problem that-whilst very real- is not anywhere near as large as some would have you believe. I think the problem of anonymous social media accounts sending abuse to celebrities and high profile persons is a social media problem not a football problem but it suits the media narrative to conflate the two things. I am yet to be convinced that racism in English professional football is any greater than racism in society in general and the evidence I have seen is that it is mercifully rare to hear racist chanting or abuse in English football stadia and when it is it is roundly condemned and life bans are handed out sharpish.

I don't think that taking the knee has seen more instances of condemnation of this sort of abuse. You could argue that it adds to the current culture of highlighting anything racial at any game of football and making it front page news-whether you think that's a positive thing or not- but I would suggest it's the result of this sort of thinking rather than the cause.

Spot on

[Billy the Kidd]

10 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Your opinion of the incident is solely based on the media report because you didn’t see it, hear it and neither did anyone playing in the match. So you are purely lapping up the media narrative as the media were the only ones who heard it. Just because you don’t like that fact doesn’t make it untrue.

How do you know this? Let me help you - you dont. You dont know who I am, what I do. So, you made an assumption.

And even if I did hear it from the he ‘media’ so fucking what? The many, many sources discussing last night had lots of information about stuff that went on.

I tell you what - if it comes out there was no racist chanting aimed at black players - I will apologise to you. Will you do the same if they prove there was? I suspect, following your levels of assumptions, that you wont, as you wil say something like ‘i have nothing to apologise for’.

 

[Lighthouse]

4 hours ago, Jimmy_D said:

It’s not going to be fixed in our lifetime, not even close. All we can do is speak out against racism, as constantly as racism occurs, and make it as socially unacceptable as possible, by making the normal response to racism to be to speak out against it instead of ignore it. 

People aren’t going to change their views because of a slogan or a gesture, but friends and family confronting them might shift them slightly, or at least make them less likely to spread their views.

If the gestures against racism were to be stopped tomorrow, the most likely response as far as I can see would be that those that hold racist views would see it as vindication that they’re not in the wrong. For this reason alone there’s still a need for them.

We can at least leave the fight against it in a better state than we started it with.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love all of that to be true but in all honesty it just seems like wishful thinking. I don’t think we are are going to be leaving the fight in any better a state than we started in. History has shown it can have quite the opposite effect and the confrontation can be used to recruit people on ‘the other side’. Just look at last year’s US election; everyone publicly slaughtering Trump and he gets the second most votes of any presidential candidate in US history.

[hypochondriac]

I find it strange that Southgate would try to conflate monkey chants from Hungarian fans - if that's what they were- with anonymous racist abuse of high profile players in England as if the two problems are in any way comporable. It's a totally false dichotomy to compare cretins on twitter with open racist abuse and chanting in stadia. It's odd that Southgate and others do this. 

[hypochondriac]

2 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love all of that to be true but in all honesty it just seems like wishful thinking. I don’t think we are are going to be leaving the fight in any better a state than we started in. History has shown it can have quite the opposite effect and the confrontation can be used to recruit people on ‘the other side’. Just look at last year’s US election; everyone publicly slaughtering Trump and he gets the second most votes of any presidential candidate in US history.

Sadly I would say things are much more racially divisive than they were a decade ago. Some surveys have shown a drop in lgbt acceptance from Western Liberal democracies in the last couple of years for the same sort of reasons. It's an unfortunate trend. 

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, hypochondriac said:

Are you suggesting that prior to the knee that overt racist behaviour wasn't condemned? Has knee taking seen an increase in condemnation for racist chanting at the football? 

No, yes.

[Turkish]

10 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

How do you know this? Let me help you - you dont. You dont know who I am, what I do. So, you made an assumption.

And even if I did hear it from the he ‘media’ so fucking what? The many, many sources discussing last night had lots of information about stuff that went on.

I tell you what - if it comes out there was no racist chanting aimed at black players - I will apologise to you. Will you do the same if they prove there was? I suspect, following your levels of assumptions, that you wont, as you wil say something like ‘i have nothing to apologise for’.

 

I have never claimed there wasn’t. If you bother to read what I said not what you think I said you’ll see I’ve always said that I’ve been very consistent in this. I also said the only way anyway would have been aware of it was the very excited media dramatically reporting it. Kane didn’t hear it, neither did Southgate nor did any other players it seems. 
 

So did you hear it first hand then? 

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Give it a rest because the only opinion people want to hear in this place is what the media tell you to think.

You have now jumped the shark bruv

[Turkish]

5 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

You have now jumped the shark bruv

Chat shit get banged bruv

[East Kent Saint]

8i

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Give it a rest because the only opinion people want to hear in this place is what the media tell you to think.

Give it a rest because you are making ridiculous claims , I form my own opinion regardless of what people on Saintsweb or the media say or “want to hear” You are just a troll who , as I have said before , just moves the goalposts slightly , never answers a question without a question or takes a slightly different tangent  while never expressing your own opinion  or belief . 

[hypochondriac]

9 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

No, yes.

Can you point to an example prior to taking the knee in recent years where racist chanting was ignored? And then the same sort of chanting being widely condemned after taking the knee where it wasn't before? 

[East Kent Saint]

3 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

Can you point to an example prior to taking the knee in recent years where racist chanting was ignored? And then the same sort of chanting being widely condemned after taking the knee where it wasn't before? 

You seem to be determined to out Turkish Turkish with your bizarre requests for information that no one knows , ffs .

[Billy the Kidd]

5 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

Give it a rest because you are making ridiculous claims , I form my own opinion regardless of what people on Saintsweb or the media say or “want to hear” You are just a troll who , as I have said before , just moves the goalposts slightly , never answers a question without a question or takes a slightly different tangent  while never expressing your own opinion  or belief . 

Absolutely spot on.

Well said.

[hackedoff]

And the definitive answer to all this is ?

[hypochondriac]

7 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

You seem to be determined to out Turkish Turkish with your bizarre requests for information that no one knows , ffs .

If no one knows then why would someone claim that taking the knee has been a good thing because it has increased condemnation of racist chanting? Bit of a bizarre thing to state if it's unknowable? 

Edited 3 September, 2021 by hypochondriac

[Turkish]

11 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

Absolutely spot on.

Well said.

So personal attacks on posters who dare to express an opinion different to the popular narrative is now “absolutely spot on, well said” but I guess when hours ago you said you weren’t engaging with me anymore yet still are shows that you’re not man/woman/non specific being of your word. 

[Fan The Flames]

8 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Chat shit get banged bruv

Classy.

When you start going on about only thinking what you're told to by the media you are now sitting on the sofa and sharing a tube of pringles with the conspiracy nutters.

FIFA had monitors at the game as they deemed it a high risk game, as reported the other day   https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9947633/Englands-World-Cup-qualifier-Hungary-red-list-high-risk-racist-abuse.html

[Turkish]

6 minutes ago, hypochondriac said:

If no one knows then why would someone claim that taking the knee has been a good thing because it has increased condemnation of racist chanting? Bit of a bizarre thing to state if it's unknowable? 

Exactly, it’s increased it but nothing to compare it too, and we get told we’re making ridiculous claims 🙄

[Turkish]

22 minutes ago, East Kent Saint said:

8i

Give it a rest because you are making ridiculous claims , I form my own opinion regardless of what people on Saintsweb or the media say or “want to hear” You are just a troll who , as I have said before , just moves the goalposts slightly , never answers a question without a question or takes a slightly different tangent  while never expressing your own opinion  or belief . 

Whats factually incorrect about anything I’ve said?

[Turkish]

5 minutes ago, Fan The Flames said:

Classy.

When you start going on about only thinking what you're told to by the media you are now sitting on the sofa and sharing a tube of pringles with the conspiracy nutters.

FIFA had monitors at the game as they deemed it a high risk game, as reported the other day   https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-9947633/Englands-World-Cup-qualifier-Hungary-red-list-high-risk-racist-abuse.html

That’s great FIFA obviously recognising a potential flash point. Wonder if they’ll also pick up on Shaw being pelted with cups like Stirling was?

[Fan The Flames]

Just now, Turkish said:

That’s great FIFA obviously recognising a potential flash point. Wonder if they’ll also pick up on Shaw being pelted with cups like Stirling was?

Of course they will, wouldn't they?