England/Hungary/Racism Discussion (Split)

[Turkish]

4 minutes ago, whelk said:

I assume you are on Twitter? If so is your timeline full off people sharing your views and no one condemning what is obvious to the normal supporter?

I’ve not looked on Twitter tonight. They threw cups at black and white players, only the BBC reporter appeared to hear the monkey noises and they were oppressed by communism so damn right they’d boo a gesture from a Marxist organisation. But let’s ignore all that and label all Hungarians racist 

[Turkish]

3 minutes ago, whelk said:

On a less depressing note and know he splits opinion but love Keane as a pundit.

this is well worth a watch to understand him a bit more

 

I must have been posting on here  - missed that 

When he took the corner for the 3rd goal, the commentators mentioned it at the time. Guess no one remembers it as he’s not black 

[whelk]

Just now, Turkish said:

When he took the corner for the 3rd goal, the commentators mentioned it at the time. Guess no one remembers it as he’s not black 

He’s not black, they’re Marxists. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck

[Turkish]

2 minutes ago, whelk said:

He’s not black, they’re Marxists. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck

I just wonder why these racists were also throwing missiles at white people.  It doesn’t make sense 🤷🏽‍♂️

[whelk]

2 minutes ago, Turkish said:

I just wonder why these racists were also throwing missiles at white people.  It doesn’t make sense 🤷🏽‍♂️

Do you think being racist means that is all you are and therefore perfectly pleasant to everyone else? 

[Turkish]

Just now, whelk said:

Do you think being racist means that is all you are and therefore perfectly pleasant to everyone else? 

Perhaps as it wasn’t just black players subject to abuse the motives weren’t skin colour?

[whelk]

Turkish scratching his head as to why they haven’t gone for England 4, anti-communist freedom fighters 0

 

[Turkish]

Just now, whelk said:

Turkish scratching his head as to why they haven’t gone for England 4, anti-communist freedom fighters 0

 

I’m scratching my head as to why no players heard this racist abuse and why white players were abused as well.

[egg]

I didn't see the game and popped on this thread. Completely dominated by the racist / not racist bollox we've had time and time again. If sections of the crowd are making monkey chants, sections of the crowd are racist - it's pretty fucking obvious. 

I've no idea how we played though, sadly. 

[Turkish]

Just now, egg said:

So we played well, Sterling wound them up, there may have made some monkey chants from a section of the crowd, and the knee booing is again deemed racist. 

Got it. 

The highlights are now on ITV game so I'll check it out.

Cheers 👍

That’s about it yes. Oh and it’s okay labelling all Hungarians racist morons too by the way 

[hypochondriac]

According to Southgate monkey chants are "similar to what we have at home." When was there last monkey chants in a Premier League stadium? 

[BARCELONASAINT]

All this is very interesting when we have one of our own players who calls himself "Gorilla". God only knows what is going to happen when he plays!

[Jonnyboy]

Anything Black or Gay rights and certain posters can't help themselves. It's a long running pattern.

[Jonnyboy]

Turkish should write a book about how everyone apart from him is obsessed with racism. Would be a good outlet for his obsession. 

[Turkish]

6 hours ago, BARCELONASAINT said:

All this is very interesting when we have one of our own players who calls himself "Gorilla". God only knows what is going to happen when he plays!

What’s going to happen when he starts putting 🦍 emojis on his accounts after he plays well against a black striker? Remember we had Cavani banned for posting something that isn’t racist in his language but is considered racist here, which in itself is a bit racist 

[JRM]

9 hours ago, Turkish said:

I’m scratching my head as to why no players heard this racist abuse and why white players were abused as well.

The most excited the commentators got was when someone heard a monkey noise. Not audiable on TV, players don't seem to have heard it, but media couldn't wait to lead with it regardless, that was their pre determined narrative especially after the "social media abuse " in the Euros. Got to find some more racism. 

[Turkish]

52 minutes ago, JRM said:

The most excited the commentators got was when someone heard a monkey noise. Not audiable on TV, players don't seem to have heard it, but media couldn't wait to lead with it regardless, that was their pre determined narrative especially after the "social media abuse " in the Euros. Got to find some more racism. 

Yep. I thought it was interesting when they asked Harry Kane about it he said he hadn’t heard it and “would ask the boys” which means it at that point after the game it hasn’t even been mentioned by the team. Yet the ITV were all over it at pitch side, the booing of the knee was a BREAKING NEWS alert of sky sports and it’s headlines in every paper. Yet they seem to be completely ignoring the fact that white players got abuse too. 

[StDunko]

55 minutes ago, JRM said:

The most excited the commentators got was when someone heard a monkey noise. Not audiable on TV, players don't seem to have heard it, but media couldn't wait to lead with it regardless, that was their pre determined narrative especially after the "social media abuse " in the Euros. Got to find some more racism. 

It would've been good if they didn't find any racism to report, but unfortunately, because there was racism, it was reported.

Perhaps we should be more concerned about the fact that there was racism, rather than whether or not the media had a predetermined narative that sadly came to fruition?

Why does it appear that some posters are more concerned about reporters doing their job, rather than the individuals making monkey noises at black players?

[Billy the Kidd]

So, the TV crews were very near the ‘Ultras’ so could hear it there. So it pretty much did happen. And no, I doubt all fans in the stadium did it, and doubt all of them are racist.

The white players were abused, but not to the extent of having monkey chants aimed at them, that is something that is aimed towards Black players. Just because white players had abuse, it wasnt racist, just more vitriolic, whilst not nice, is nowhere near as bad.

It is in my opinion absolutely correct to call our the racist abuse for what it is, irrespective of white player being abused.

Im not black, but can understand a little how that must feel, and having some very close friends who are, we often talk about this stuff, have done for years, and it has helped me understand the issue better.

If it were as simple as ‘well white people were abused too’ argument, then why did some of the crowd have to differentiate between colour, aiming monkey chants? Why couldn’t the black players get the same abuse as white players?

Edited 3 September, 2021 by Billy the Kidd

[Sheaf Saint]

1 hour ago, JRM said:

The most excited the commentators got was when someone heard a monkey noise. Not audiable on TV, players don't seem to have heard it, but media couldn't wait to lead with it regardless, that was their pre determined narrative especially after the "social media abuse " in the Euros. Got to find some more racism. 

So what are you suggesting - that because the players didn't hear it and no mics picked it up, it obviously didn't happen?

In a noisy stadium filled with tens of thousands of people, when you're concentrating on the task at hand (to win an important qualifying match), can you honestly say you would be able to single out certain noises coming from a particular section of the crowd?

And even if you could, do you genuinely not think the players will have been instructed, as part of their media training, to say they didn't hear it and not comment on it?

Honestly - the lengths certain people here will go to in order to deny a problem exists is so depressing.

[Turkish]

19 minutes ago, Sheaf Saint said:

So what are you suggesting - that because the players didn't hear it and no mics picked it up, it obviously didn't happen?

In a noisy stadium filled with tens of thousands of people, when you're concentrating on the task at hand (to win an important qualifying match), can you honestly say you would be able to single out certain noises coming from a particular section of the crowd?

And even if you could, do you genuinely not think the players will have been instructed, as part of their media training, to say they didn't hear it and not comment on it?

Honestly - the lengths certain people here will go to in order to deny a problem exists is so depressing.

This is laughable. The players are instructed not to mention it? You dont seriously believe this do you? When you've got games abandoned due to an alleged racist comment by a coach, a media frenzy over any hint of racism you seriously think the players have been told not to talk about it?

As for no players or mics picking it up i find this a bit strange too. A chelsea player was able to hear a racist comment by one person in a crowd of 50,000 people a few months ago, yet not one England player or microphone was able to hear a group of fans making monkey noises.

I'm not saying it never happened, what i'm saying is that if it did happen it couldn't have been that loud and if it did happen it's pretty incredible the only people who heard it were the ITV reporter who couldn't wait to tell everyone. 

Also why no mention of white players being abused and having cups thrown at them? 

Honestly - the lengths certain people here will go to to try and make themselves look like they care so much is so depressing.

[Turkish]

29 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

So, the TV crews were very near the ‘Ultras’ so could hear it there. So it pretty much did happen. And no, I doubt all fans in the stadium did it, and doubt all of them are racist.

The white players were abused, but not to the extent of having monkey chants aimed at them, that is something that is aimed towards Black players. Just because white players had abuse, it wasnt racist, just more vitriolic, whilst not nice, is nowhere near as bad.

It is in my opinion absolutely correct to call our the racist abuse for what it is, irrespective of white player being abused.

Im not black, but can understand a little how that must feel, and having some very close friends who are, we often talk about this stuff, have done for years, and it has helped me understand the issue better.

If it were as simple as ‘well white people were abused too’ argument, then why did some of the crowd have to differentiate between colour, aiming monkey chants? Why couldn’t the black players get the same abuse as white players?

They didn't feel anything, none of them heard it.

England manager Gareth Southgate, who had ice thrown at him by fans during his interview with BBC Radio 5 Live, said: "I've heard reports of racism, which I hadn't heard during the game.

Harry Kane also didn't hear it but was going to ask the boys about it.

 

Pretty strange no one heard it when it was a group of fans doing it....

Edited 3 September, 2021 by Turkish

[Billy the Kidd]

16 minutes ago, Turkish said:

They didn't feel anything, none of them heard it.

England manager Gareth Southgate, who had ice thrown at him by fans during his interview with BBC Radio 5 Live, said: "I've heard reports of racism, which I hadn't heard during the game.

Harry Kane also didn't hear it but was going to ask the boys about it.

 

Pretty strange no one heard it when it was a group of fans doing it....

So what, what has that got to do with what I said? I mentioned it was the press that heard it. You sure youre quoted the right post?

So, are you suggesting it didnt happen at all, and the press made it up? Maybe, and if true that will come out, and rightly so. And if it did happen, will you still bang the ‘what about the white peoples abuse’ drum.

 

[steve green]

Still don't rate GS highly (my JWP sulk continues) but he summed up last nights sillyness quite well.

"The world is modernising and although some people are stuck in their ways of thinking and their prejudices, they're going to be the dinosaurs in the end because the world is changing."

[Turkish]

28 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

So what, what has that got to do with what I said? I mentioned it was the press that heard it. You sure youre quoted the right post?

So, are you suggesting it didnt happen at all, and the press made it up? Maybe, and if true that will come out, and rightly so. And if it did happen, will you still bang the ‘what about the white peoples abuse’ drum.

 

Yep sure it was the right post.

Im not saying it didn't happen, what i'm saying is that it seems no one would have known anything about it if it wasn't for a reporter stood next to the ultras excitedly reporting it midway through the second half. No players heard it, no mic heard it, so the headlines RACISTS 0 ENGLAND 4 and the blaze of publicity along with an entire nation being labelled racist morons by the woke loons on here at what appears to be very minor incident is a bit over the top dont you think? 

Edited 3 September, 2021 by Turkish

[Lighthouse]

On a slight tangent, I thought the whole point of the kneeling was to fight racism? Surely, the fact that it gets such a negative reaction by the people whose opinions it’s supposed to be changing, shows that this is demonstrably not working. It’s all well and good saying they’re terrible racists and it’s disgusting that they boo taking the knee but if this is YOUR strategy for tackling it then clearly there needs to be a rethink.

[manzo]

Ah, so we're going down the "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?" route.

Cool.

[Billy the Kidd]

20 minutes ago, Turkish said:

Yep sure it was the right post.

Im not saying it didn't happen, what i'm saying is that it seems no one would have known anything about it if it wasn't for a reporter stood next to the ultras excitedly reporting it midway through the second half. No players heard it, no mic heard it, so the headlines RACISTS 0 ENGLAND 4 and the blaze of publicity along with an entire nation being labelled racist morons by the woke loons on here at what appears to be very minor incident is a bit over the top dont you think? 

Not sure it was the right post, but ok. Your post doesn’t seem to have the context of what i first wrote, but never mind!

It is irrelevant that player didnt hear it, Jesus you really seem to be against this being reported. If it happened, and it was heard by anyone, means there is a problem with some sections of the crowd, and it needs to be stopped. Dont be a dick and label people being ‘Woke’ and that just makes you come across as a bit a a prick, someone slightly too old trying to be cool. 

You also wanted to make a thing of white people being abused, as if it were the same thing, and why should the black thing be picked up. For me, this is such a lazy, ignorant attitude. I’m actually wondering if you are my dad, as he has pretty similar views and is in his mid 70’s 😂

I am with you in so far as the whole nation being labelled as racist is wrong, but there is a major issue pretty much globally that needs to be addressed and needs to be stopped. You labelling shit as work is as much of the problem as the people doing it, and I think it is totally inappropriate. If that is really how you feel, I’m not one to want to engage with you further.

[Billy the Kidd]

6 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

On a slight tangent, I thought the whole point of the kneeling was to fight racism? Surely, the fact that it gets such a negative reaction by the people whose opinions it’s supposed to be changing, shows that this is demonstrably not working. It’s all well and good saying they’re terrible racists and it’s disgusting that they boo taking the knee but if this is YOUR strategy for tackling it then clearly there needs to be a rethink.

I agree the knee thing needs looking at, but surely we need a far better strategy to deal with it.

For me there should be zero tolerance - if it happens, the players walks off and dont come back. The people who do it are far likely to keep doing it, as people around them simply wont tolerate it. Perhaps there needs to also be better ways at identifying the people who do it, maybe with harsher penalties too.

[Alanh]

8 minutes ago, Lighthouse said:

On a slight tangent, I thought the whole point of the kneeling was to fight racism? Surely, the fact that it gets such a negative reaction by the people whose opinions it’s supposed to be changing, shows that this is demonstrably not working. It’s all well and good saying they’re terrible racists and it’s disgusting that they boo taking the knee but if this is YOUR strategy for tackling it then clearly there needs to be a rethink.

I think there are valid occasions for inflammatory gestures to be used to raise the profile of an issue.  I think the knee gesture falls into that category.  If it is generating a response that the 'Kick it out' type campaigns didn't achieve then it is being productive.  The gesture on it's own won't defeat racism and to think that it will is naive, but if it helps to create a culture where racist behaviour is hilighted and condemned then over time that type of overt behaviour will become less acceptable and less likely to occur.

[Charlie Wayman]

Chuck them out of the World Cup, full stop!

[OldNick]

4 minutes ago, Charlie Wayman said:

Chuck them out of the World Cup, full stop!

Dangerous game for English fans to say that. We have some who jeer and make racist chants.

 

[Nordic Saint]

10 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

I agree the knee thing needs looking at, but surely we need a far better strategy to deal with it.

For me there should be zero tolerance - if it happens, the players walks off and dont come back. The people who do it are far likely to keep doing it, as people around them simply wont tolerate it. Perhaps there needs to also be better ways at identifying the people who do it, maybe with harsher penalties too.

I can remember when fans of teams that were losing heavily sometimes used pitch invasions to try to get games abandoned. The prospect of forcing teams to abandon games when their team is losing heavily would probably encourage some fans to make racist chants. England did the right thing last night although I was concerned that Southgate might take his team off the pitch. The Hungarians would have stayed out there and possibly even been awarded the game. My guess is that if Hungary had been winning 4-0, there wouldn't have been any displays of racism or any objects thrown on the pitch.

I was at Wembley the last time we played Hungary, in 2010. That was a much closer game and their fans were very well behaved although most of them were residents here. I'll be there again the next time too and I expect their fans will, once again, mostly be British residents. I like watching the current England team and thought my ticket was reasonably priced at £40 for a World Cup qualifier when compared to ticket prices for Premier League games in London.

Anyway, I thought it was an excellent performance by England. I'd hoped we might get seven to equal what Hungary did to us in 1954. That was England's all-time record defeat but what gets rarely mentioned is the fact we also beat them 7-0 and 8-2 in Hungary.

[Baird of the land]

I do find it nuts that that fifa and uefa can’t co-ordinate at all regarding fan bans.

Not a fan of this take a knee rite for evermore approach.

the small amount of racist chanting wasn’t inspired by it but by their team getting smashed. Expect it’ll generate stadium ban that should have already been in place.

[steve green]

Regardless of it being 'a minority' the only action which will change behaviour is points deductions or banning from competition.

 

I'm quite happy for England to be judged as well. I remember the 70s and 80s. It was only when our fans were effectively banned abroad, and a certain clubs thuggish behaviour resulted in a euro competition ban, that it resulted in huge efforts by the F.A. and Leagues to sort the hooligan problem.

 

I suspect you'd get a bigger fine for removing a shirt and revealing a condom advert on your vest than the Hungarian F.A. will get.

[Turkish]

1 hour ago, Billy the Kidd said:

Not sure it was the right post, but ok. Your post doesn’t seem to have the context of what i first wrote, but never mind!

It is irrelevant that player didnt hear it, Jesus you really seem to be against this being reported. If it happened, and it was heard by anyone, means there is a problem with some sections of the crowd, and it needs to be stopped. Dont be a dick and label people being ‘Woke’ and that just makes you come across as a bit a a prick, someone slightly too old trying to be cool. 

You also wanted to make a thing of white people being abused, as if it were the same thing, and why should the black thing be picked up. For me, this is such a lazy, ignorant attitude. I’m actually wondering if you are my dad, as he has pretty similar views and is in his mid 70’s 😂

I am with you in so far as the whole nation being labelled as racist is wrong, but there is a major issue pretty much globally that needs to be addressed and needs to be stopped. You labelling shit as work is as much of the problem as the people doing it, and I think it is totally inappropriate. If that is really how you feel, I’m not one to want to engage with you further.

Oh dear, the childish name calling has started, how typical. Anyway we dont want people judged by the colour of their skin, but we are only allowed to get angry when black people get abused, got it.

Edited 3 September, 2021 by Turkish

[Turkish]

55 minutes ago, Billy the Kidd said:

I agree the knee thing needs looking at, but surely we need a far better strategy to deal with it.

For me there should be zero tolerance - if it happens, the players walks off and dont come back. The people who do it are far likely to keep doing it, as people around them simply wont tolerate it. Perhaps there needs to also be better ways at identifying the people who do it, maybe with harsher penalties too.

How do they know to walk off when they dont hear it happening?

Edited 3 September, 2021 by Turkish

[Fan The Flames]

If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a noise. Eric Cantona

[Fan The Flames]

1 hour ago, manzo said:

Ah, so we're going down the "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?" route.

Cool.

Missed this 

[Baird of the land]

1 hour ago, steve green said:

Regardless of it being 'a minority' the only action which will change behaviour is points deductions or banning from competition.

 

I'm quite happy for England to be judged as well. I remember the 70s and 80s. It was only when our fans were effectively banned abroad, and a certain clubs thuggish behaviour resulted in a euro competition ban, that it resulted in huge efforts by the F.A. and Leagues to sort the hooligan problem.

 

I suspect you'd get a bigger fine for removing a shirt and revealing a condom advert on your vest than the Hungarian F.A. will get.

I could maybe understand a points deduction/threat of one for the sort of wide scale behavior in Bulgaria game, but in instances where it was so few most didn’t even seem to be aware of it.

[East Kent Saint]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58432092

FIFA will sort it out ! 

It should be remembered that Oban has promoted an anti migrant policy in the last 2 elections in Hungary so it is no surprise that the Ultras do what they do . The eastern bloc was pretty racist in it's day and as we know Russia still is. Friends we know in Hungary are pretty anti Oban and his racist attitudes and his moves to take control of the judicial system although it's best not to mention the Roma people ......

[Jonnyboy]

1 minute ago, East Kent Saint said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58432092

FIFA will sort it out ! 

It should be remembered that Oban has promoted an anti migrant policy in the last 2 elections in Hungary so it is no surprise that the Ultras do what they do . The eastern bloc was pretty racist in it's day and as we know Russia still is. Friends we know in Hungary are pretty anti Oban and his racist attitudes and his moves to take control of the judicial system although it's best not to mention the Roma people ......

Some posters on here should move there. Love it or leave it boys. 

[whelk]

Those cunts that murdered Stephen Lawrence also once had a fight with a white guy. How can anyone call them racist?

As for ‘woke loons’ - bless his little culture war

Edited 3 September, 2021 by whelk

[Billy the Kidd]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

Oh dear, the childish name calling has started, how typical. Anyway we dont want people judged by the colour of their skin, but we are only allowed to get angry when black people get abused, got it.

That isn’t childish name calling. I said don’t be such a dick about it. Are you now going all woke on me as you’re called out for a bigot  😂 Oh the irony.

Deal with the subject Turkish, you clearly have an issue with the racist stuff being in the public eye and getting the attention it rightly deserves.
 

no one  says don’t get angry about white people getting abuse, yet still you fail to acknowledge the racist stuff is far worse and far more personal. 

[Paulwantsapint81]

Unfortunately the world do not all sing from the same song book & if they do some are much further along than others

FIFA needs to find a whiter than white (no pun intended) place to start & set the rules & if that means saints can’t use derogatory terms to Portsmouth so be it IF it improves the global game 

More than99% of fans at St Mary’s like friendly banter mixing before & after games with opposition fans but less than 1% who don’t understand a friendly laugh & go to far

 

Are the players so expecting abuse that until it gets bad it is background noise

 

[Billy the Kidd]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

How do they know to walk off when they dont hear it happening?

You know very well that many times players do hear it and if they do every player off every colour should unite and walk off. 
 

Any how I’m not engaging with you further, not with your views on this subject, and what I believe you are. It doesn’t sit right with me. 

[Billy the Kidd]

1 hour ago, Fan The Flames said:

If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a noise. Eric Cantona

That’s all a bit Schrodingers Cat!

[whelk]

I’m impressed no one has mentioned Qatar yet

[Billy the Kidd]

1 hour ago, Nordic Saint said:

I can remember when fans of teams that were losing heavily sometimes used pitch invasions to try to get games abandoned. The prospect of forcing teams to abandon games when their team is losing heavily would probably encourage some fans to make racist chants. England did the right thing last night although I was concerned that Southgate might take his team off the pitch. The Hungarians would have stayed out there and possibly even been awarded the game. My guess is that if Hungary had been winning 4-0, there wouldn't have been any displays of racism or any objects thrown on the pitch.

I was at Wembley the last time we played Hungary, in 2010. That was a much closer game and their fans were very well behaved although most of them were residents here. I'll be there again the next time too and I expect their fans will, once again, mostly be British residents. I like watching the current England team and thought my ticket was reasonably priced at £40 for a World Cup qualifier when compared to ticket prices for Premier League games in London.

Anyway, I thought it was an excellent performance by England. I'd hoped we might get seven to equal what Hungary did to us in 1954. That was England's all-time record defeat but what gets rarely mentioned is the fact we also beat them 7-0 and 8-2 in Hungary.

Thanks for your reasoned response. 
 

Yeah the game was good and I thought we showed we had learnt stuff about controlling the game, was a good performance. I haven’t been to an England match in about 20 years, 2-0 home win v Georgia I think before the 98 World Cup, think Shearer got one. 

[whelk]

2 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

On a slight tangent, I thought the whole point of the kneeling was to fight racism? Surely, the fact that it gets such a negative reaction by the people whose opinions it’s supposed to be changing, shows that this is demonstrably not working. It’s all well and good saying they’re terrible racists and it’s disgusting that they boo taking the knee but if this is YOUR strategy for tackling it then clearly there needs to be a rethink.

Odd view. I am not particularly a fan of the knee thing but saying because it gets negative reaction needs a rethink. That isn’t how protests work