Conceding way too many

[AlexLaw76]

This needs fixing and fixing ASAP. The signs were there all from game 2.

Norwich looked like they could score at will, Argyle had some very dangerous situations in the 1st half, QPR should have taken the lead and then there was Sunderland.

Of course teams will conceded goals and teams will have chances...but fecking hell, we have the 2nd worst goals against in English professional football. 12 conceded in 5 games!

As for what Holmes and Watson posted, the most conceded from a team finishing in the top 2 over the last 19 seasons is 58, with the average over that period being 42...

Can Russell sort it? Well, he has the tools available to him.

[sfc4prem]

Russell Martin's footballing ideology seems stubborn and uncompromising.

Will he learn? I don't know. The Swansea fans probably have a better idea. 

Is his brand of football just inherently brittle? It seems so easy for opposing teams to slice through us like a knife through hot butter. Norwich, Plymouth, QPR split us open. Sunderland tore us apart.

Martin seems unhappy, but continues to ignore options a lot of us are suggesting, namely Charles as holding CDM; wing backs playing more as defensive fullbacks. 

[S-Clarke]

I can't help but gravitate back to the Koeman years, or the Adkins years etc - were we fixated on a specific footballing strategy at that point? Or did we just buy good players, play them in their natural positions and then rest is history? I'd say that was what we did tbh.

There's a lot that is to be said for just playing the game to win, rather than playing the game to fit a specific strategy or philosophy. I'm not against a philosophy as such, but there seems to be way too much focus on that at the expense of other elements.

The biggest concern I have, not just from today but from our previous games, is our midfield. I think it's weak. Without Charles in there (who is a kid himself), we have guys like Armstrong, Downes, Smallbone and Charly - they're not big units, they're technically good but in the blood a thunder of the NPC I can't help but feel they'll lose more battles than they win without help around them. I do think we're 1 CM too short.

[Graffito]

9 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I can't help but gravitate back to the Koeman years, or the Adkins years etc - were we fixated on a specific footballing strategy at that point? Or did we just buy good players, play them in their natural positions and then rest is history? I'd say that was what we did tbh.

There's a lot that is to be said for just playing the game to win, rather than playing the game to fit a specific strategy or philosophy. I'm not against a philosophy as such, but there seems to be way too much focus on that at the expense of other elements.

The biggest concern I have, not just from today but from our previous games, is our midfield. I think it's weak. Without Charles in there (who is a kid himself), we have guys like Armstrong, Downes, Smallbone and Charly - they're not big units, they're technically good but in the blood a thunder of the NPC I can't help but feel they'll lose more battles than they win without help around them. I do think we're 1 CM too short.

“He arrived confident in his conviction that you could control a game and set the rhythm for your team with a central midfielder who was neither particularly strong nor overly physical. This is what he had done in the past with Xavi at Barcelona and Joshua Kimmich at Bayern.

But he quickly found out that approach did not work in the Premier League. In England, you need a central midfielder who is powerful in aerial battles and wins 50-50s. Rodri is a good example of what he thinks he needs. Also, he expects his central midfielders to act as a defender when a centre-back moves forward, so they must have the physicality to cope with being in that position.”

“His view on refereeing is also well known – he is firmly of the belief English referees are far more lenient than their continental counterparts. This has also affected his decision making, as he feels you need players who are physically bigger and stronger to cope with it. If you get knocked down, you’d better get up and be ready to go again as clashes do not get rewarded with fouls as often as they do anywhere else“

“Guardiola accepts that sometimes control and possession is not enough. Tactical acumen takes a temporary back seat to raw courage as emotions take over and it becomes a case of ‘all hands to the pump’ as an opponent piles forward.

This is one area where he knows things can be improved. Ruben Dias displays a calmness and clarity in his decision making in moments of stress and panic. He is an example to follow.“

https://bbcfootball.info/how-english-football-changed-guardiola

[Galway saint]

The sluggish aimless passing continued today even when we were 2 and 3 behind. We should have been taking the game to them but we just continued to pass it around for passings sake for long periods. 

I don’t think we have really sorted the CM platform since Romeu left. Sunderland looked a lot more powerful there.

Charles has looked decent in the holding role   so god knows why he ended up at RB today. 

I didn’t appreciate we have the second worst goals conceded in the football league

 

 

 

 

 

[trousers]

32 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

I can't help but gravitate back to the Koeman years, or the Adkins years etc - were we fixated on a specific footballing strategy at that point? Or did we just buy good players, play them in their natural positions and then rest is history? I'd say that was what we did tbh.

There's a lot that is to be said for just playing the game to win, rather than playing the game to fit a specific strategy or philosophy. I'm not against a philosophy as such, but there seems to be way too much focus on that at the expense of other elements.

I've often wondered this about our relatively recent fixation of sticking religiously to a playing philosophy. 

To me, it gives the opposition an advantage in that they always know how we're going to play and once one team works out how to counter the philosophy other teams follow suit. 

This is what ultimately led to the downfall of Hassenhuttl IMO. We just ended up being far too predictable and unadaptable. 

There's certainly an element of being 'too clever for your own good' when trying to be different to how 'normal' football is played...

 

 

Edited 2 September, 2023 by trousers

[Galway saint]

I also think if you are going to adopt a philosophy that involves playing out from the back and keeping possession in those areas you have to buy players who capable of implementing that strategy and are comfortable on the ball - holgate looked anything but today. Let’s hope the Man City lad does a better job.

[S-Clarke]

14 minutes ago, trousers said:

I've often wondered this about our relatively recent fixation of sticking religiously to a playing philosophy. 

To me, it gives the opposition an advantage in that they always know how we're going to play and once one team works out how to counter the philosophy other teams follow suit. 

This is what ultimately led to the downfall of Hassenhuttl IMO. We just ended up being far too predictable and unadaptable. 

There's certainly an element of being 'too clever for your own good' when trying to be different to how 'normal' football is played...

 

 

It is a strange one. To me 9 times out of 10 it's the teams with the best players who get the success, it doesn't matter what their philosophy is, they just have the best players (as they have the money to do that). In the PL I understand why clubs look for alternatives to try and compete and get the extra via alternative means as they can't get the 'best' players, but when you're in a league you're expected to dominate - with the players for it - I think it's dangerous to over complicate something you don't really need to.

Edited 2 September, 2023 by S-Clarke

[Dusic]

Personally feel that once our lineup inevitably settles down and more partnerships are formed that this aspect will improve.

Today was awful, no doubt. Butbwe havr made a decent start considering the upheaval.

Perhaps a result/performance like this isnt such a bad thing to happen so early on to expose the flaws.

I thought it felt like we just expected to turn up, play 800 passes and dismantle Sunderland and we weren't competitive enough and they exposed us.

Not so bothered about the 2nd half as we obviously setup in a way we wouldnt start a game on the off chance we could get back into it.

The style was great at Sheff Weds and 2nd half vs Plymouth because we played it well. Today we didn't. Simple as that.

 

Edited 2 September, 2023 by Dusic

[Turkish]

You’ve got to laugh really. We’re obsessed with being a cool club, a Man City lite, with a hipster manager and a footballing philosophy. Yet we’ve just been served up 5-0 by Tony Mowbrays team. Tony frigging Mowbray 🤣🤣

[saint michael]

Possession is one element of football. I don’t see a defensive strategy or an attacking strategy. We seem clueless in these two essential bits of football, and this has been our main problem for a few years now. We seem to have identified individuals based on numbers and not how these can blend into a team… so what we see is a group of individuals that are not bad in possession. 
 

Martin and his team seem to be training them in more and more possession only.  I think we had 67% in first half if I saw correctly. Watching is just so frustrating. Plodding passes for the sake of it and long periods of time wasted if you happen to be chasing a game. Like all the comments above the project ,the process the club have lost the football plot. I bet Sunderland were pissing themselves at HT. 

the quality of the individuals is clearly high so we will gain points but can’t see how we are going to get consistency without something really fundamental changing 

[Dr Who?]

I seem to remember a worry point of last season when Swansea were conceding a lot of late goals. Seems to be a mental problem with focusing at the back, which is something we do not need adding to here at Southampton as we were doing that well enough without him. Late goals even though we have scored some, we have been leaking straight after scoring, just before and after the break and at the end of games (right at the start today). This would suggest we are switching off or not switching on. 

[LGTL]

The worry is that yesterday isn’t in isolation. We’ve looked like conceding an absolute hatful in every game bar Sheffield Wednesday. Norwich managed 4, Plymouth and QPR could have easily got 6 each with better finishing. We’ll end up mid-table with a minus GD if Martin is here all season. 

[JRM]

18 hours ago, AlexLaw76 said:

This needs fixing and fixing ASAP. The signs were there all from game 2.

Norwich looked like they could score at will, Argyle had some very dangerous situations in the 1st half, QPR should have taken the lead and then there was Sunderland.

Of course teams will conceded goals and teams will have chances...but fecking hell, we have the 2nd worst goals against in English professional football. 12 conceded in 5 games!

As for what Holmes and Watson posted, the most conceded from a team finishing in the top 2 over the last 19 seasons is 58, with the average over that period being 42...

Can Russell sort it? Well, he has the tools available to him.

Add the Gillingham game in we've conceded 15 in 6 , that's enough of a sample for Martin to be summoned to explain himself to the board 

[Farmer Saint]

Unfortunately I think he was vastly under-estimated how shit our defence and Goalkeeper is. Unless we have a proper DM, we cannot play the way he wants us to play. 

Edited 4 September, 2023 by Farmer Saint

[CamSaint]

15 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Unfortunately I think he was vastly under-estimated how shit our defence and Goalkeeper is

I think he bears some responsibility as he has recruited 2 of the back 4 (although I assume Holgate was brought in as back-up rather than a starter) and retained 'the best RB in the division'!

I would have thought that the susceptibility we have to the fast break when we have a corner ought to be being addressed by the set-piece coach, as he should be setting up our shape for corners (and free kicks near the penalty area).

[Farmer Saint]

25 minutes ago, CamSaint said:

I think he bears some responsibility as he has recruited 2 of the back 4 (although I assume Holgate was brought in as back-up rather than a starter) and retained 'the best RB in the division'!

I would have thought that the susceptibility we have to the fast break when we have a corner ought to be being addressed by the set-piece coach, as he should be setting up our shape for corners (and free kicks near the penalty area).

I thought Wilcox was the recruiter? 

[aintforever]

1 hour ago, JRM said:

Add the Gillingham game in we've conceded 15 in 6 , that's enough of a sample for Martin to be summoned to explain himself to the board 

His teams have always conceded a lot of goals, why would that change for us? 

[Mustapha Fag]

I watched yesterday and it stood out from the 1st minute Sunderland knew we played with full backs tucked inside the midfield so stuck two quick wingers out wide with acres of space to rip the centre half's apart, how to fix that, easy play 4 at the back, Charles and Downes protecting the four.

If I could see and I'm in my 60s with failing vision surely someone close to the touchline could

[CamSaint]

3 hours ago, Farmer Saint said:

I thought Wilcox was the recruiter? 

He is, but RM has said that Wilcox would never bring in anyone he wasn't happy with and that the two of them are perfectly aligned. I don't know what sort of pre-season Holgate had, but RM also said that Fraser couldn't start because he wasn't fit enough. Maybe the same should have applied to Holgate?

Should we have stuck with the Charles/Bednarek pairing that did OK against QPR? You can bet your life if we had have done that and got a similar result then a lot of people on here would have been saying: 'Why didn't he play a 'proper' CH in Holgate'?

We have potentially made a superb signing in THB and I really, really hope that he can make a major improvement to our defensive woes.

[Convict Colony]

I was wondering what the problem was bro, you've nailed it.

[Andrew Watson]

THB has one helluva job trying to help organize and play in our defence,good luck to the man,he certainly needs it. Conceding 12 goals in 5 championship games is a total disgrace and we have not played one of the better sides yet. Difficult to see a top 6 finish at present,needs urgently sorting,perhaps Winning tackles and cutting out zonal marking would be a start. 

[Chris cooper]

53 minutes ago, Andrew Watson said:

THB has one helluva job trying to help organize and play in our defence,good luck to the man,he certainly needs it. Conceding 12 goals in 5 championship games is a total disgrace and we have not played one of the better sides yet. Difficult to see a top 6 finish at present,needs urgently sorting,perhaps Winning tackles and cutting out zonal marking would be a start. 

Foxes next on a Friday night .. hopefully this Indian summer continues well after the international break.

If the rain 🌧️ rolls in that Friday and holgate again is at the heart of our defence .. I fear 😧 a repeat of that horrid night.

Only thing in our favour is vesty is at the heart of the foxes defence…9-9 anyone.

[Saint_clark]

Makes you wonder what the long term plan is. Surely, surely we aren't aiming to get back to the Prem being this open at the back? We'd break the record for goals conceded and least amount of points, without a doubt. 

[saintant]

On 02/09/2023 at 19:42, AlexLaw76 said:

This needs fixing and fixing ASAP. The signs were there all from game 2.

Norwich looked like they could score at will, Argyle had some very dangerous situations in the 1st half, QPR should have taken the lead and then there was Sunderland.

Of course teams will conceded goals and teams will have chances...but fecking hell, we have the 2nd worst goals against in English professional football. 12 conceded in 5 games!

As for what Holmes and Watson posted, the most conceded from a team finishing in the top 2 over the last 19 seasons is 58, with the average over that period being 42...

Can Russell sort it? Well, he has the tools available to him.

Can't say we weren't warned.

[saintant]

On 02/09/2023 at 22:05, saint michael said:

Possession is one element of football. I don’t see a defensive strategy or an attacking strategy. We seem clueless in these two essential bits of football, and this has been our main problem for a few years now. We seem to have identified individuals based on numbers and not how these can blend into a team… so what we see is a group of individuals that are not bad in possession. 
 

Martin and his team seem to be training them in more and more possession only.  I think we had 67% in first half if I saw correctly. Watching is just so frustrating. Plodding passes for the sake of it and long periods of time wasted if you happen to be chasing a game. Like all the comments above the project ,the process the club have lost the football plot. I bet Sunderland were pissing themselves at HT. 

the quality of the individuals is clearly high so we will gain points but can’t see how we are going to get consistency without something really fundamental changing 

Every time Sunderland got hold of the ball their first though was to get at us rather than pussy foot around allowing us to regroup. A simple strategy but it worked a treat. Might be a lesson there.

[S-Clarke]

1 hour ago, saintant said:

Every time Sunderland got hold of the ball their first though was to get at us rather than pussy foot around allowing us to regroup. A simple strategy but it worked a treat. Might be a lesson there.

They were able to do that as we offered no protection off the ball, stood off everyone for 90mins. We were played through like a knife through butter. Time and time again.

The lack of organisation on our first corner was something you'd be disappointed at from a non-league team, it was horrific. There are times when the players need to take the lead in situations, but for so many years we seem to stand around and wait for someone else to do it. Guilty party's continue to be Bednarek, Stu Armstrong etc.

Hopefully THB shakes up the back 4 a bit and we can add a bit more organisation back there, but it's the midfield which worries me.

[AlexLaw76]

49 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

They were able to do that as we offered no protection off the ball, stood off everyone for 90mins. We were played through like a knife through butter. Time and time again.

The lack of organisation on our first corner was something you'd be disappointed at from a non-league team, it was horrific. There are times when the players need to take the lead in situations, but for so many years we seem to stand around and wait for someone else to do it. Guilty party's continue to be Bednarek, Stu Armstrong etc.

Hopefully THB shakes up the back 4 a bit and we can add a bit more organisation back there, but it's the midfield which worries me.

I think Charles has to start at CM with a more organised defence in front of and around him. Charles is a big lad who is good on the ball, and designed to sit in front of a couple of CBs

also, simply leaving massive gaps between our FBs and CBs constantly is madness, as we have seen.

I get the point of possession at the rear and middle 3rd’s, it brings their players out of their shape (or should do). But that is pointless if we do not quickly exploit that and make their midfielders/defenders face their own goal.

I guess we will see the cut of RMs cloth with the next 2 home games. 

[Turkish]

if you notice a lot of the goals we concede are either just after we've scored or before or after a break in play.

4 of the goals  saturday came within minutes of the kick off or before the end of the half. QPR and Plymouth both scored right after we did, and one of Norwich goals was just after we scored, then just before half time.

That tells me that the concentration levels are not there, players are switching off or not switching on when they need to. 

[Convict Colony]

40 minutes ago, Turkish said:

if you notice a lot of the goals we concede are either just after we've scored or before or after a break in play.

4 of the goals  saturday came within minutes of the kick off or before the end of the half. QPR and Plymouth both scored right after we did, and one of Norwich goals was just after we scored, then just before half time.

That tells me that the concentration levels are not there, players are switching off or not switching on when they need to. 

Some one needs to take a taser onto the pitch and once we score everyone gets tased to wake them up.

[skintsaint]

1 minute ago, Convict Colony said:

Some one needs to take a taser onto the pitch and once we score everyone gets tased to wake them up.

Shocking post.

[S-Clarke]

1 hour ago, Turkish said:

if you notice a lot of the goals we concede are either just after we've scored or before or after a break in play.

4 of the goals  saturday came within minutes of the kick off or before the end of the half. QPR and Plymouth both scored right after we did, and one of Norwich goals was just after we scored, then just before half time.

That tells me that the concentration levels are not there, players are switching off or not switching on when they need to. 

Yep, absolutely. The performance at the weekend was 'Dozy', that's how I'd describe it.

Not sure if it's because players minds weren't totally on it, or it's because we've got a load of players with nothing in between their ears, as listening to Martin they totally forgot everything they'd spoken about.

[Whitey Grandad]

53 minutes ago, skintsaint said:

Shocking post.

They're missing a spark.

[saintant]

37 minutes ago, S-Clarke said:

Yep, absolutely. The performance at the weekend was 'Dozy', that's how I'd describe it.

Not sure if it's because players minds weren't totally on it, or it's because we've got a load of players with nothing in between their ears, as listening to Martin they totally forgot everything they'd spoken about.

I think it's more the case that Mowbray had us sussed out and set Sunderland up to get at us every time they had the ball while we tip-tapped around and got nowhere. We found ourselves completely over run very quickly and never looked like recovering. Not sure how we prevent other sides doing the same sort of number on us because you can bet coaches will be studying videos of the game.