Saints Charged With Spying on Mboro Training

[AlexLaw76]

2 minutes ago, saintant said:

Not that I know of but everyone, including you I'm guessing, is basing opinions and theories on what is being put out on the internet and I get that this is a dodgy thing to do. Guess we'll have to wait for more official info from the club.

The club have said almost nothing and those with a microphone are saying nothing.

Almost certain that if we had absolutely nothing to do with it, we would be shouting about it.

As others have said, I am sure we are on a huge damage limitation exercise.

[EssEffCee]

Obviously won't name it but I work at the hotel where they are staying tomorrow. There's already a plan in place to get some further information which might be useful...

[Hodgey]

The big issue here is precedent and deterrent.

Sensibly two things need to happen here

1) The EFL need to declare a punishment on spying now - and it needs to be big. If its say £500k that’s not enough as I’d be happy to try and spy on an opposition knowing the risk is £500k vs potential reward of £200m. I would not be surprised if that’s a -6 (or higher) immediate point deduction (plus obviously a big wedge of cash for their coffers - this is the totally corrupt world of football after all). 

2) They would then need to rule on us - do they have enough evidence to prove guilt ? How long are they going to need to legally build a bulletproof case ?. I assume this will take too long and will be too complicated to implement so I’d expect if found guilty our points punishment will be deterred to next season or when we find ourselves back in the epl (whichever is sooner)

Of course the above remains unfair on other teams (especially Boro) in this instance if we clearly cheated (provable) as we’d have a delayed punishment. But realistically what would be the alternative ? - even if they wanted to go over the top with a 10p ban they can’t go back in time. 

 

[SadButTrue]

4 minutes ago, saintant said:

If you're suggesting Baz is coming back surely that alone is more punishment than even the EFL could impose on us.

Maybe we could suggest this as a punishment to the EFL, but with an added condition of a maximum of two matches, because that already costs six points.

[saintant]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

The club have said almost nothing and those with a microphone are saying nothing.

Almost certain that if we had absolutely nothing to do with it, we would be shouting about it.

As others have said, I am sure we are on a huge damage limitation exercise.

I would assume our lawyers will be insisting we say nothing until we have made our own internal investigations and concluded that we have done nothing wrong. Probably sensible.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, saintant said:

I would assume our lawyers will be insisting we say nothing until we have made our own internal investigations and concluded that we have done nothing wrong. Probably sensible.

what internal investigations, we had nothing what so ever to do with it and it was some "wet behind the ears" intern doing this complete off their own back and without request.

[Saint NL]

I'm hearing Saints fans are bringing little water sprays to the game on Tuesday so they can dampen behind their ears to show solidarity with the poor junior spy

[Willo of Whiteley]

22 minutes ago, EssEffCee said:

Obviously won't name it but I work at the hotel where they are staying tomorrow. There's already a plan in place to get some further information which might be useful...

Saints or Boro?

[benjii]

The obvious thing to do is to be very helpful in tone, and be cooperative, but also drag it out as long as possible. 

[Willo of Whiteley]

Can you imagine if it turns out the punishment is minimal and it is some stupid intern.

Are we going to get mass apologies from the media, Troy Deeney?

It would be hilarious if it turned out it was all a hoax and some Boro fuckwit (which it turns out there are many) actually set all this up. 😂

[RedArmy]

Some of you lot are mental. 
 

We are clearly guilty as fuck, how far up the chain it went only time will tell. 
 

We just need to own it and get on with it. 

 

Coming up with bizarre theories about how we had nothing to do with it is as crazy as Boro fans thinking they’re either getting a 3-0 lead going into Tuesday or we’re getting kicked out of the playoffs altogether. 

[Willo of Whiteley]

If we win 5-0 then the story gets put to bed

[Badger]

27 minutes ago, Dragon_man said:

Can't see this being anything other a fine even if found bang to rights.

Spying doesn't materially affect the outcome of a game, like say bribing a ref or arranging for a floodlight failure if loosing or the blood gate one that was in Rugby a few years ago.

Anything seen on a training ground may not appear on a pitch and even armed with that information, it far from guarantees a win.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a suspension from football for a period for someone or some of those deemed to be involved. 

[Willo of Whiteley]

1 minute ago, RedArmy said:

Some of you lot are mental. 
 

We are clearly guilty as fuck, how far up the chain it went only time will tell. 
 

We just need to own it and get on with it. 

 

Coming up with bizarre theories about how we had nothing to do with it is as crazy as Boro fans thinking they’re either getting a 3-0 lead going into Tuesday or we’re getting kicked out of the playoffs altogether. 

We are clearly guilty, if the EFL have charged us they’ve either been extremely rushed and rash, or they’ve already got sufficient evidence.

But it is amusing to theorise over the ridiculous demands of the Boro brigade.
Or humour any form of rumour in the meantime.

[Toussaint]

Just now, RedArmy said:

Some of you lot are mental. 
 

We are clearly guilty as fuck, how far up the chain it went only time will tell. 
 

We just need to own it and get on with it. 

 

Coming up with bizarre theories about how we had nothing to do with it is as crazy as Boro fans thinking they’re either getting a 3-0 lead going into Tuesday or we’re getting kicked out of the playoffs altogether. 

I am mental,  we may be guilty we may not be guilty, we maybe guilty by association, or maybe something nobody has thought of. I don’t know, but nor does anyone outside those that do know, and they, quite rightly, are not giving anything away. 

[CB Fry]

Just now, Toussaint said:

I am mental,  we may be guilty we may not be guilty, we maybe guilty by association, or maybe something nobody has thought of. I don’t know, but nor does anyone outside those that do know, and they, quite rightly, are not giving anything away. 

We are guilty. Get over it. 

Just a case of damage limitation and message management now.

 

[Toussaint]

Just now, CB Fry said:

We are guilty. Get over it. 

Just a case of damage limitation and message management now.

 

What do you think happened? 

[John B]

1 minute ago, RedArmy said:

Some of you lot are mental. 
 

We are clearly guilty as fuck, how far up the chain it went only time will tell. 
 

We just need to own it and get on with it. 

 

Coming up with bizarre theories about how we had nothing to do with it is as crazy as Boro fans thinking they’re either getting a 3-0 lead going into Tuesday or we’re getting kicked out of the playoffs altogether. 

i agree but let the games go ahead if Boro win they can fine us next season and if we win the final they can fine us and give the game to Millwall if we are guilty they deesrve it four finishing third

[Weston Super Saint]

It's a long thread and I haven't read it all, but didn't the EFL set a precedent when they fined Leeds £200k in 2019?

 

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, Toussaint said:

What do you think happened? 

I believe we were aware/involved with someone going up there to gather information, given their training ground is pretty accessible. This, coupled with the fact they are a very good side and have battered us the last time we played them.

I would not be surprised if this is not the first time this season.

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, Weston Super Saint said:

It's a long thread and I haven't read it all, but didn't the EFL set a precedent when they fined Leeds £200k in 2019?

 

And then set new rules. 
Trouble for Boro (I believe), set sanctions are not laid out. So going for debatable sporting advantage to getting kicked out of a £200m competition is madness 

[do i not like fizzy pop]

6 minutes ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

If we win 5-0 then the story gets put to bed

If we'd gone out an smashed them 3-0 yesterday and do similar Tuesday then yes.

It just all seems so inept if it happened. 

[Stripey McStripe Shirt]

8 minutes ago, RedArmy said:

Some of you lot are mental. 
 

We are clearly guilty as fuck, how far up the chain it went only time will tell. 
 

Is it possible Sunak was in on it when he was PM?

[CB Fry]

2 minutes ago, Toussaint said:

What do you think happened? 

Enough for the club to be incapable of issuing any kind of denial of repudiation whatsoever over 48 hours on.

[Toussaint]

Just now, CB Fry said:

Enough for the club to be incapable of issuing any kind of denial of repudiation whatsoever over 48 hours on.

It’s a serious question, I can’t imagine anyone of any seniority sanctioning this. 

[Maggie May]

1 minute ago, Toussaint said:

It’s a serious question, I can’t imagine anyone of any seniority sanctioning this. 

In all fairness, do you have the faintest idea of what goes on behind closed doors at football clubs?

[Weston Super Saint]

4 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

And then set new rules. 
Trouble for Boro (I believe), set sanctions are not laid out. So going for debatable sporting advantage to getting kicked out of a £200m competition is madness 

So a fine then!

If clubs can overspend by millions and receive a fine, I can't see anything other than that for a spreadsheet geek watching a training session!

[Whitey Grandad]

52 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

who says he is young and or wet behind the ears?

He is unlikely to have been a 75-year old on a work placement. 

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Whitey Grandad said:

He is unlikely to have been a 75-year old on a work placement. 

I have no idea if this person was on a work placement or Spors himself. 

 

[CB Fry]

1 minute ago, Toussaint said:

It’s a serious question, I can’t imagine anyone of any seniority sanctioning this. 

Well, I think you need to get used to it.

If it really was a completely rogue individual they would been sacked/dealt with by now and the likes of Blackmore/House will have been briefed on that.

The only questions left are about how much Tonda is part of it.

People pretending "we dont know anything, it's all made up, nothing's proven until the investigation is complete etc etc etc" are fucking deluded. If we were innocent we'd be on the front foot denying it.

We're not because we're not.

[Toussaint]

5 minutes ago, Maggie May said:

In all fairness, do you have the faintest idea of what goes on behind closed doors at football clubs?

No, but neither does almost everyone else on here.

[Turkish]

we’re obviously guilty ridiculous to pretend otherwise and it’s embarsssing and pointless thing to do but Isn’t it nice not being soft, inoffensive Southampton for once.

Edited 6 hours ago by Turkish

[Gary R76]

1 hour ago, saintant said:

I notice the Boro fans and others are asking how long this has been going on and point to our unbeaten run since January. They conveniently use this as the start point and make no mention of our many abysmal performances which surely wouldn't have happened if we are spying on every opponent. 

What about be unbeaten at home for 10 games 

[saintant]

21 minutes ago, Willo of Whiteley said:

If we win 5-0 then the story gets put to bed

Doubt that.

[RedArmy]

12 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

 

I would not be surprised if this is not the first time this season.

It would be more embarrassing that we got caught if it wasn’t the first time. You’d think we’d be good at it by now at least. 

 

 

[Saint NL]

13 minutes ago, Stripey McStripe Shirt said:

Is it possible Sunak was in on it when he was PM?

He's so tiny that we wouldn't have had to hide him in the bushes 👀

[Stud mark of doom]

The suggestion of “owning it” seems a high risk strategy until we know what the punishment is. Makes sense to negotiate how much we accept with the possible penalty. 
 

If we were doing this we would surely have built in an element of deniability, as there would obviously have been a risk of being caught. 

 

[Whitey Grandad]

1 hour ago, saintant said:

My take would be that if it was an intern acting with no authority from the club we didn't get away with anything because we didn't do anything wrong. 

This matter has nothing to do with English Law being a case of an agreement between the club and the EFL but in general employment legislation the relationship between employer and employee is known as that between Master and Servant the relevant point being that the Master is responsible for the actions of a Servant even if they have no knowledge of the transgression. This does not apply to contractors. 

[Saint NL]

Say what you want about Russell Martin, but with his rigid one way of playing, there wasn't any need for spying from either team. 

 

Honest Russ 

[Whitey Grandad]

58 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

No one is saying anything, but the suggest this is the fault os some upstart, who was desperate to impress someone drove up on a weekday, of their own back without any engagement with anyone linked to the club, is rather fanciful

Or was after a job with another club who might have expressed an interest in one of Middlesbrough's players? It's not so far from Derby, or Birmingham, as it is from here.

[AlexLaw76]

1 minute ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Or was after a job with another club who might have expressed an interest in one of Middlesbrough's players? It's not so far from Derby, or Birmingham, as it is from here.

good god, we have been charged and the club are not even disputing it 

[Whitey Grandad]

59 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Have the club said this was an intern?

Nope. They've said very little. Which could mean anything from they've got something to hide to they know nothing about it and need time to investigate further. 

[CB Fry]

4 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Or was after a job with another club who might have expressed an interest in one of Middlesbrough's players? It's not so far from Derby, or Birmingham, as it is from here.

You don't think that in two entire days of investigation the club wouldn't have worked out that this kid was actually scouting for Birmingham City after all and Saints are in the clear? Or they have worked that out but decided not to tell the EFL or Solent or the Echo or anyone. Just sit on it while everyone thinks we're guilty..

How likely do you think these bullshit scenarios are?

Edited 6 hours ago by CB Fry

[VectisSaint]

47 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

what internal investigations, we had nothing what so ever to do with it and it was some "wet behind the ears" intern doing this complete off their own back and without request.

the internal investigation to determine who it was, whether he was employee or former employee, whether it was authorised, and crucially whether any information was received and used by the Football Club, at any level. The legals need to investigate this, because presumably they were not directly involved.

[benjii]

3 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

good god, we have been charged and the club are not even disputing it 

We don't know what the club is doing.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, VectisSaint said:

the internal investigation to determine who it was, whether he was employee or former employee, whether it was authorised, and crucially whether any information was received and used by the Football Club, at any level. The legals need to investigate this, because presumably they were not directly involved.

Determine who it was? Pretty sure all knew within a minute who it was hence why the club have been charged.
 

 

[CB Fry]

3 minutes ago, Whitey Grandad said:

Nope. They've said very little. Which could mean anything from they've got something to hide to they know nothing about it and need time to investigate further. 

No it doesn't "mean anything".

It means we know we cannot issue any denial because we know we've done something wrong.

Get over it.

 

[Whitey Grandad]

15 minutes ago, AlexLaw76 said:

I have no idea if this person was on a work placement or Spors himself. 

 

That's the point. He has not been identified publicly and may not even be reachable the moment.

[AlexLaw76]

Just now, Whitey Grandad said:

That's the point. He has not been identified publicly and may not even be reachable the moment.

LOL

we have been charged, and we are not disputing it

[benjii]

1 minute ago, AlexLaw76 said:

Determine who it was? Pretty sure all knew within a minute who it was hence why the club have been charged.
 

 

Yeah, there's clearly enough evidence to bring a charge if someone associated with SFC was watching the session.

But whether it was some freelancer on a frolic or was doing it with the connivance of the club, we don't know.

We may be guilty as sin, or it might be something pretty silly. 

Either way, I wouldn't expect the club to get involved in the details publicly whilst the semi is ongoing.