Tonda Eckert

[Doctoroncall]

Not sure if posted, the FA have increased the minimum punishment on aggravated breach:

The FA is to increase the minimum punishment for discriminatory behaviour to 10 matches, in an attempt to counteract behaviour it says “continues to be a challenge across the game”.

The changes will come into force at the start of the new season and will apply to players and other football participants who are found guilty of an “aggravated breach” of the FA’s disciplinary rules on improper conduct, effectively actions that included discriminatory behaviour against any protected characteristics. Currently the minimum suspension for such a breach is six matches.

Charges against Tonda weren’t aggravated but wonder on the timing of this release of changes to the punishments. 

[sadoldgit]

2 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

We employed a level of subterfuge, albeit in a laughably bad manner, in order to gain inside information on their entire game plan and formations. It’s like playing blackjack, looking at everyone else’s cards and trying to claim you’re not cheating and the ‘benefit is marginal’.

It is nothing like cheating at cards as well you know. If you look at someone’s cards the benefit is enormous. Looking at a training session, as we have discovered ourselves, does not guarantee that you win the match.

[Lighthouse]

1 hour ago, OnceaSaintalwaysaSaint said:

Literally every friend I have who are season ticket holders at other clubs think we've been hard done by. Everyone. They all say the whole thing is a nonsense and we've been sh*t on.

It wasn't cheating. It was scouting.  

On another tack. When I said to my son, what employer would keep an employee that has lost the club potentially £200 million, his argument is we were nowhere near the play offs when he became manager. I've never thought of it like this.

As I’ve said before, if this exact same scenario had played out with Pompey ‘scouting’ one of our training sessions before beating us in the playoffs, I’m sure this forum would be unanimous in agreeing that it’s no big deal and wishing those chaps down the road all the very best of luck in the Premier League.

 

No amount of friends feeling things are going to wash away the fact that we deliberately broke the rules to gain an advantage before a crucial playoff game, knowing full well it wasn’t acceptable after the Bielsa saga seven years ago.

[TheSoundman]

14 minutes ago, sadoldgit said:

It is nothing like cheating at cards as well you know. If you look at someone’s cards the benefit is enormous. Looking at a training session, as we have discovered ourselves, does not guarantee that you win the match.

It's interesting that in this case it's the 'intent' that seems to count, rather than the result, which is actually quite unusual.

If you drink and drive then get pulled over you might get banned, but if you hit someone and kill them, you'll probably end up in prison. The intent is the same, the outcome is down to (mis)fortune, but that's what you'll be judged on. The same could be said on the pitch when the defender tries to pull back a forward when he's through on goal. If the forward shakes free and has a shot, the defender gets away with it, but if the forward goes down, it's probably a red. The intent was the same though.

I know I'm rambling, but we gained no advantage from this stupidity, and yet we're being crucified as a club. It's not often you get judged on intent alone...

Edited 16 hours ago by TheSoundman

[Weston Super Saint]

26 minutes ago, Doctoroncall said:

Not sure if posted, the FA have increased the minimum punishment on aggravated breach:

The FA is to increase the minimum punishment for discriminatory behaviour to 10 matches, in an attempt to counteract behaviour it says “continues to be a challenge across the game”.

The changes will come into force at the start of the new season and will apply to players and other football participants who are found guilty of an “aggravated breach” of the FA’s disciplinary rules on improper conduct, effectively actions that included discriminatory behaviour against any protected characteristics. Currently the minimum suspension for such a breach is six matches.

Charges against Tonda weren’t aggravated but wonder on the timing of this release of changes to the punishments. 

Sounds like they will only affect offences committed this season, so won't apply to Tonda for last season...

[MB]

Being announced tomorrow apparently

[obelisk]

3 hours ago, Lighthouse said:

We employed a level of subterfuge, albeit in a laughably bad manner, in order to gain inside information on their entire game plan and formations. It’s like playing blackjack, looking at everyone else’s cards and trying to claim you’re not cheating and the ‘benefit is marginal’.

Ludicrous. Get a grip.

[obelisk]

1 hour ago, Lighthouse said:

if this exact same scenario had played out with Pompey ‘scouting’ one of our training sessions before beating us in the playoffs

The difference is that Saints have erected fences in order to stop other clubs scouts getting a look whereas Gibbo's lot were doing their work in public. It's about time that the pearl clutchers got a grip.

[StrangelyBrown]

3 minutes ago, obelisk said:

The difference is that Saints have erected fences in order to stop other clubs scouts getting a look whereas Gibbo's lot were doing their work in public. It's about time that the pearl clutchers got a grip.

It's like going on holiday and leaving your front door open and then being pissed off that you got burgled...

Edited 15 hours ago by StrangelyBrown

[hypochondriac]

37 minutes ago, MB said:

Being announced tomorrow apparently

If that's true I assume the club already know what it's leaning towards. Is it a coincidence that the echo and solent are all there along with Solak? Can we read much into the fact that Tonda hasn't done much in the way of interviews this week?

[Verbal]

3 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

 

If I look at your cards in a game of poker, is that cheating or scouting?

Scouting. 

[Lighthouse]

33 minutes ago, obelisk said:

The difference is that Saints have erected fences in order to stop other clubs scouts getting a look whereas Gibbo's lot were doing their work in public. It's about time that the pearl clutchers got a grip.

I'm not sure we have the same definition of that idiom, or what exactly I'm supposed to get a grip of (other than pearls, obviously). I'm not the least bit shocked or outraged that we got kicked out of the playoffs or that Tonda may get banned. Probably the most surprising thing for me in this whole saga was that we didn't sack Tonda.

[HKsaint]

2 hours ago, MB said:

Being announced tomorrow apparently

Really? I thought they would only announce after the start of the season to see how well we are playing. 

[CB Fry]

5 hours ago, StrangelyBrown said:

It's like going on holiday and leaving your front door open and then being pissed off that you got burgled...

Except in this analogy we are the burglars feeling hard done by that we have been caught and punished for burglary even though we know burglary is illegal.

[mss636]

4 hours ago, HKsaint said:

Really? I thought they would only announce after the start of the season to see how well we are playing. 

Na, everyone is talking about the World Cup and England Boycotting it. If they announce now they can batter us and nobody will speak about it 

[Farmer Saint]

Genuinely, still can't believe this is such a big deal. I really hope we see points deductions and long bans for diving and playacting - things that genuinely affect games.

Edited 7 hours ago by Farmer Saint

[Matthew Le God]

Just now, Farmer Saint said:

Genuinely still can't believe this is such a big deal. I really hope we see points deductions and long bans for diving and playacting - things that genuinely affect games.

Knowing how your opponent intends to play in different match situations like set pieces and the personnel they have availsble and altering your tactical and team selection to counter it affects games.

[Farmer Saint]

Just now, Matthew Le God said:

Knowing how your opponent intends to play in different match situations like set pieces and the personnel they have availsble and altering your tactical and team selection to counter it affects games.

Personnel shouldn't, as you can have plans for with and without personnel. Don't forget you can also view up to 72 hours before anyway, so a lot of that info will be available then. There is also no guarantee that someone wouldn't become available the morning of the game. It's all very wishy-washy, compared to someone being sent off for cheating, or diving for a penalty.

 

[Matthew Le God]

16 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Personnel shouldn't, as you can have plans for with and without personnel. Don't forget you can also view up to 72 hours before anyway, so a lot of that info will be available then. There is also no guarantee that someone wouldn't become available the morning of the game. It's all very wishy-washy, compared to someone being sent off for cheating, or diving for a penalty.

All the tactical work is done in those final 3 days before a game. That is standard practice in the sport and why those 72 hours of training are viewed as more important. In the time before those 72 hours it is recovery sessions for the previous games and general training drills. 

Edited 7 hours ago by Matthew Le God

[obelisk]

14 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

Don't forget you can also view up to 72 hours before anyway

Indeed. If a spot of scouting opponents were such a grievous offence that it requires sackcloth, ashes, beating with sticks and even a few weeks in a pillory then why is it specifically allowed one day and not the next. And why does no other league have such a daft rule?

[Farmer Saint]

3 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

All the tactical work is done in those final 3 days before a game. That is standard practice in the sport and why those 72 hours of training are viewed as more important. In the time before those 72 hours it is recovery sessions for the previous games and general training drills. 

And? You were talking about team selection as well. Out of interest, how did we get on with this additional tactical information in the games? Was there a material improvement in our performance do you think?

[Farmer Saint]

This falls into two main areas. Theoretical changes to a game, and material changes to the conditions the game is played under. The second has far more affect on the game, and should therefore be more heavily punished.

[Matthew Le God]

6 minutes ago, Farmer Saint said:

And? You were talking about team selection as well. Out of interest, how did we get on with this additional tactical information in the games? Was there a material improvement in our performance do you think?

In the three games they admitted to, Saints weren't great. Perhaps we'd have been even worse without doing it.

[Farmer Saint]

4 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

In the three games they admitted to, Saints weren't great. Perhaps we'd have been even worse without doing it.

Do you think we'd have done better had we dived to get a player of theirs sent off?

[Wade Garrett]

50 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Knowing how your opponent intends to play in different match situations like set pieces and the personnel they have availsble and altering your tactical and team selection to counter it affects games.

Watching your opponents previous games will tell you the same thing, which is why I’m so pissed off that Tonda went down this route in the first place.

 

[Wade Garrett]

33 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

All the tactical work is done in those final 3 days before a game. That is standard practice in the sport and why those 72 hours of training are viewed as more important. In the time before those 72 hours it is recovery sessions for the previous games and general training drills. 

How the fuck do you know that?

[Weston Super Saint]

5 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

How the fuck do you know that?

Football manager something something.

[Matthew Le God]

11 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

How the fuck do you know that?

Sports Interactive talks to a huge number of professionals in the industry to reflect real life, I've worked for them for 19 years. I have also been to Staplewood and seen what Saints do and talked to Saints staff.

Edited 6 hours ago by Matthew Le God

[obelisk]

Just now, Matthew Le God said:

I have also been to Staplewood and seen what Saints do

Isn't that called spying these days?

[Weston Super Saint]

5 minutes ago, Weston Super Saint said:

Football manager something something.

 

2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Sports Interactive talks to a huge number of professionals in the industry to reflect real life, I've worked for them for 19 years. I have also been to Staplewood and seen what Saints do.

Lol!  Never a truer word spoken in jest  

[Matthew Le God]

2 minutes ago, obelisk said:

Isn't that called spying these days?

Not when they are an arranged meeting with the director of football on club grounds.

Edited 6 hours ago by Matthew Le God

[Maggie May]

Just now, Matthew Le God said:

Not when they are arranged meeting with the director of football on club grounds.

Interesting. Did you have to sign an NDA or the equivalent? What would’ve stopped you leaking your learnings to an upcoming opponent? 

[Weston Super Saint]

1 minute ago, Maggie May said:

Interesting. Did you have to sign an NDA or the equivalent? What would’ve stopped you leaking your learnings to an upcoming opponent? 

Football manager something something.

[obelisk]

2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Not when they are an arranged meeting with the director of football on club grounds.

But when you go on to tell the whole world about Saints secret training methods? What is it then?

[Matthew Le God]

20 minutes ago, Maggie May said:

Interesting. Did you have to sign an NDA or the equivalent? What would’ve stopped you leaking your learnings to an upcoming opponent? 

No. I didn't watch any training. It was also in pre season and not near any league game.

No contradiction. I saw the plans of a training week, not the training itself.

Edited 6 hours ago by Matthew Le God

[Weston Super Saint]

53 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

All the tactical work is done in those final 3 days before a game. That is standard practice in the sport and why those 72 hours of training are viewed as more important. In the time before those 72 hours it is recovery sessions for the previous games and general training drills. 

 

20 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

How the fuck do you know that?

 

10 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Sports Interactive talks to a huge number of professionals in the industry to reflect real life, I've worked for them for 19 years. I have also been to Staplewood and seen what Saints do and talked to Saints staff.

 

2 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

No. I didn't watch any training. It was also in pre season and not near any league game.

MLG tripping himself up, again!

Not even an hour has passed before completely contradicting himself!

[Wade Garrett]

13 minutes ago, Matthew Le God said:

Sports Interactive talks to a huge number of professionals in the industry to reflect real life, I've worked for them for 19 years. I have also been to Staplewood and seen what Saints do and talked to Saints staff.

Load of shite, respectfully.

[Matthew Le God]

5 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Load of shite, respectfully.

What don't you believe?

[Badger]

2 hours ago, mss636 said:

Na, everyone is talking about the World Cup and England Boycotting it. If they announce now they can batter us and nobody will speak about it 

Suspicion is that they want people to take notice and talk about it. Especially after their ‘get tough’ message yesterday about increasing punishment for aggravated breaches.

This isn’t an aggravated breach - whatever that is - but it might help reinforce the FA stance. Before they recoil to become toothless to deal with more important issues  

[Badger]

47 minutes ago, Wade Garrett said:

Watching your opponents previous games will tell you the same thing, which is why I’m so pissed off that Tonda went down this route in the first place.

 

Especially when you’ve got a whole season of previous games to consider and extract data from. Really was unnecessary. 

[Fabrice29]

1 hour ago, Farmer Saint said:

Personnel shouldn't, as you can have plans for with and without personnel. Don't forget you can also view up to 72 hours before anyway, so a lot of that info will be available then. There is also no guarantee that someone wouldn't become available the morning of the game. It's all very wishy-washy, compared to someone being sent off for cheating, or diving for a penalty.

 

Baffling anyone still thinks any of this is a defence. Especially when clearly spelling out the rule we’ve broken yourself 😂

[BarberSaint]

2 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

Knowing how your opponent intends to play in different match situations like set pieces and the personnel they have availsble and altering your tactical and team selection to counter it affects games.

Might. Might not.

[BarberSaint]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

All the tactical work is done in those final 3 days before a game. That is standard practice in the sport and why those 72 hours of training are viewed as more important. In the time before those 72 hours it is recovery sessions for the previous games and general training drills. 

Well in that case, standard practice is stupid. How come people don't do better (are their plans crap?) if they follow the drills, can't they learn basic things like marking, tackling, etc outside of those 72 hours and is football now played, I don't know, on a computer and not on a pitch with a huge number of random factors (and diving) which are much more likely to affect the result?

 

The whole premise is stupid.

[BarberSaint]

1 hour ago, Matthew Le God said:

Sports Interactive talks to a huge number of professionals in the industry to reflect real life, I've worked for them for 19 years. I have also been to Staplewood and seen what Saints do and talked to Saints staff.

Was this 72 hours before a game?

[Fabrice29]

13 minutes ago, BarberSaint said:

Was this 72 hours before a game?

Apart from the fact he’s answered that shortly after, you know the difference between MLG being allowed in to watch training and someone from another club watching it don’t you?

[West end Saints]

2 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

Knowing how your opponent intends to play in different match situations like set pieces and the personnel they have availsble and altering your tactical and team selection to counter it affects games.

You can't say that. It may well do, it may make no difference. How many times has a team had to make a late change and lost their preparation and they do great. 

Of course it was hoped it would help, but who knows if it did. It was hoping for marginal gains.

This is why I get frustrated with the blanket comment of it's cheating.

Fair enough if games were played with perfect integrity but they aren't.

Goalies pretending to be injured, deliberately taking throw ins in the wrong place, diving are all cheating - and possibly more likely to gain an advantage.

We fucked up and should be punished. Like others, I haven't heard anyone saying we have got off lightly, quite the opposite.

The point has been made, there is now a huge deterrent.

A long ban will hurt the club more than Tonda, and no-one feels club needs more. As someone said above he will just get another job.

A ban of something like 3 games would keep his job, punish him and make a point.

I still hope for a fine and we can all move on

[Fabrice29]

Getting banned and sacked from your job not a proper punishment but 3 days off and having to keep managing Saints is. People have lost their minds over this haven’t they 😂

[Matthew Le God]

24 minutes ago, West end Saints said:

You can't say that. It may well do, it may make no difference. How many times has a team had to make a late change and lost their preparation and they do great. 

Of course it was hoped it would help, but who knows if it did. It was hoping for marginal gains.

This is why I get frustrated with the blanket comment of it's cheating.

Fair enough if games were played with perfect integrity but they aren't.

Goalies pretending to be injured, deliberately taking throw ins in the wrong place, diving are all cheating - and possibly more likely to gain an advantage.

We fucked up and should be punished. Like others, I haven't heard anyone saying we have got off lightly, quite the opposite.

The point has been made, there is now a huge deterrent.

A long ban will hurt the club more than Tonda, and no-one feels club needs more. As someone said above he will just get another job.

A ban of something like 3 games would keep his job, punish him and make a point.

I still hope for a fine and we can all move on

There is no maybe about it. If you make changes, the game will play out differently. 

[hypochondriac]

Could be wrong but you would think if we were going to hear today it would be telegraphed a bit. Talksport seemed to know about it last time.

[so22saint]

2 hours ago, Matthew Le God said:

Sports Interactive talks to a huge number of professionals in the industry to reflect real life, I've worked for them for 19 years. I have also been to Staplewood and seen what Saints do and talked to Saints staff.

May I just say MLG, you have truly found your calling 😉