lordswoodsaints Posted 1 April, 2009 Share Posted 1 April, 2009 then i would imagine that leeds,luton,bournemouth etc etc will try and take action against them,i know i would if i was involved with one of those clubs as it is a bit of a p1ss take. dont get me wrong,i hope we can bend the rules and avoid the 10 points but by doing so we will become the most unpopular club in the country,especially by the above mentioned clubs and any other clubs that are sailing close to the wind with the finances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponty Posted 1 April, 2009 Share Posted 1 April, 2009 Derby pulled it off without recrimination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 1 April, 2009 Share Posted 1 April, 2009 I don't care if we are unpopular. It will pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 1 April, 2009 Share Posted 1 April, 2009 There are murmurs already. Plymouth, Notts Forest, Luton and Rotherham mentioned here: http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/argyle/Cash-strapped-Saints-set-avoid-mandatory-10-point-deduction/article-866754-detail/article.html http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/football_league/article6018369.ece They would have every right to feel agrieved too. Can see an escalation of the Tevez affair in lower league football with more teams expected to go into admin in the summer. Lawsuits will follow if teams aren't docked points for whatever reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 1 April, 2009 Share Posted 1 April, 2009 There are murmurs already. Plymouth, Notts Forest, Luton and Rotherham mentioned here: http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/argyle/Cash-strapped-Saints-set-avoid-mandatory-10-point-deduction/article-866754-detail/article.html http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/football_league/article6018369.ece They would have every right to feel agrieved too. No they don't. We are working within the rules. They are not PLCs, that's the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattlehead Posted 1 April, 2009 Share Posted 1 April, 2009 PLC 'status' is irrelevant to FA rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulSaint Posted 1 April, 2009 Share Posted 1 April, 2009 If they sue us then we sue Derby for knocking us out of the play offs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattlehead Posted 1 April, 2009 Share Posted 1 April, 2009 Also, for clarification, any company can have a holding company like SLH (i.e. not necessarily a PLC but does a company that does basically nothing but own shares in another company, in this case a football club). The FA will be thinking "what next?" and, if allowed to get away with it, before long you'll see all clubs putting holding companies over the top of them for next to no cost. 'Our' PLC has no other business really and it is without a doubt a p*sstake and against the spirit of the rules. It might on the face of it be within the rules, but it is quite frankly taking the p*ss and I will be amazed if we get away with it. I'm fairly sure Leeds effectively did the same (i.e. technically ok, but against the spirit of the rules) and they had the book thrown at them. It will be thrown at us as well I would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulSaint Posted 1 April, 2009 Share Posted 1 April, 2009 Rattlehead Dont remember a furore in 2004 when Derby did exactly this? If Derby get away with it & we dont then that isnt fair either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golac's Cunning Stunts Posted 1 April, 2009 Share Posted 1 April, 2009 Am I right in saying that when Derby did it there were no rules in place to deduct points from teams that went into admin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 1 April, 2009 Share Posted 1 April, 2009 Am I right in saying that when Derby did it there were no rules in place to deduct points from teams that went into admin? I think that the present rules were brought in after Leeds tried to pull a fast one. I don't know how that relates to Derby. I must admit, until I started reading about Derby on this forum I didn't know that they had gone into administration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 1 April, 2009 Share Posted 1 April, 2009 From what i have read so far the rules state that there are only ramifications if the actual club goes into administration and apparently the rules are quite specific on this. However, we all know how the FA and the football league works and they will probably change the rules anyways to ensure that they make an example out of us etc. Luton and rotheram have already said that if we are let off then they will attempt legal action, however i am thinking, surely, if the situations of us and derby are quite similar (and i believe they are) then we can argue that the football league had set a precedence in the case and subsequently get let off ???? Wishful thinking maybe ?? Hopefully then maybe they will give us an automatic shot at promotion also ???? Ok, probably seriously wishful thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 No they don't. We are working within the rules. They are not PLCs, that's the difference. Exactly, they are probably rueing the day they didn't have a visionary chairman to implement a structure that would ultimately save them if the lunatics ever took over the asylum and a last ditch fall back plan was needed. If we get away without a deduction and the football league don't decide to set new precedents and use us as an example then this may be worth another a statue outside SMS for the man who kept us from dropping into the 3rd tier of Englsih football 50 years after the great man got us out. If we get deducted the points nothing Wotte can do will save us but at least he has been given a chance of survival. Good luck Rupert and thanks for your efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightspark Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 (edited) this may be worth another a statue outside SMS for the man who kept us from dropping into the 3rd tier of Englsih football . Will the same sculptor who designed the first Ted Bates statue be designing it? In that case i'm up for it. Maybe it can be stoned like they do on the pilgramage? I doubt we will get away with it, the league are likely to close the loophole. Won't be surprised if it costs us dear. We may appeal, appeal to the appeal, sue, appeal to that sue, appeal to the next appeal and then sue that appeal, but the legal system sucks so don't expect anything out of it. Edited 2 April, 2009 by brightspark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Farmer Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 Exactly, they are probably rueing the day they didn't have a visionary chairman to implement a structure that would ultimately save them if the lunatics ever took over the asylum and a last ditch fall back plan was needed. If we get away without a deduction and the football league don't decide to set new precedents and use us as an example then this may be worth another a statue outside SMS for the man who kept us from dropping into the 3rd tier of Englsih football 50 years after the great man got us out. If we get deducted the points nothing Wotte can do will save us but at least he has been given a chance of survival. Good luck Rupert and thanks for your efforts. Nineteen Canteen, are a 'kin disgrace to Southampton and all the people who support the team. Get back into bed with your bumboy, wherever that may be now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 Exactly, they are probably rueing the day they didn't have a visionary chairman to implement a structure that would ultimately save them Whilst there may be a chance that the PLC structure might save us a points deduction, you seem to be forgetting tht when we moved to that way of working in 1996 there were no rules regarding points deductions following administration so it was never on the horizon. It's just an accidental by product of our current status and decision to circumvent Rule 34 (and that's assuming we get away with it). Come and see me in the Itchen South (block 10) this Saturday and we can discuss this like adults and have a chat about Lowe's second tenure ending in abject failure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamesaint Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 exactly, they are probably rueing the day they didn't have a visionary chairman to implement a structure that would ultimately save them if the lunatics ever took over the asylum and a last ditch fall back plan was needed. If we get away without a deduction and the football league don't decide to set new precedents and use us as an example then this may be worth another a statue outside sms for the man who kept us from dropping into the 3rd tier of englsih football 50 years after the great man got us out. If we get deducted the points nothing wotte can do will save us but at least he has been given a chance of survival. Good luck rupert and thanks for your efforts. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 Exactly, they are probably rueing the day they didn't have a visionary chairman to implement a structure that would ultimately save them if the lunatics ever took over the asylum and a last ditch fall back plan was needed. If we get away without a deduction and the football league don't decide to set new precedents and use us as an example then this may be worth another a statue outside SMS for the man who kept us from dropping into the 3rd tier of Englsih football 50 years after the great man got us out. If we get deducted the points nothing Wotte can do will save us but at least he has been given a chance of survival. Good luck Rupert and thanks for your efforts. A Lone voice , the like of which , i hope, we never hear again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rational Rich Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 Whilst there may be a chance that the PLC structure might save us a points deduction, you seem to be forgetting tht when we moved to that way of working in 1996 there were no rules regarding points deductions following administration so it was never on the horizon. It's just an accidental by product of our current status and decision to circumvent Rule 34 (and that's assuming we get away with it). Come and see me in the Itchen South (block 10) this Saturday and we can discuss this like adults and have a chat about Lowe's second tenure ending in abject failure Um, do you have a copy of the full wording of the relevant rule, as a pedantic lawyer it would be interesting to see exactly what it says. Cheers Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 Will the same sculptor who designed the first Ted Bates statue be designing it? LMFAO. I didn't read any further than his crass opening line so never saw his statue gem!!!!!:rolleyes: I think we ould be likely to get a punch bag type effigy, where people can take out there frustrations after a home defeat. Or maybe even an eternal flame to lighten up the dark periods whenever we think back to the dark days at the end of his two tenures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustMike Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 Exactly, they are probably rueing the day they didn't have a visionary chairman to implement a structure that would ultimately save them if the lunatics ever took over the asylum and a last ditch fall back plan was needed. If we get away without a deduction and the football league don't decide to set new precedents and use us as an example then this may be worth another a statue outside SMS for the man who kept us from dropping into the 3rd tier of Englsih football 50 years after the great man got us out. If we get deducted the points nothing Wotte can do will save us but at least he has been given a chance of survival. Good luck Rupert and thanks for your efforts. hahahah, priceless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenridge Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 Exactly, they are probably rueing the day they didn't have a visionary chairman to implement a structure that would ultimately save them if the lunatics ever took over the asylum and a last ditch fall back plan was needed. If we get away without a deduction and the football league don't decide to set new precedents and use us as an example then this may be worth another a statue outside SMS for the man who kept us from dropping into the 3rd tier of Englsih football 50 years after the great man got us out. If we get deducted the points nothing Wotte can do will save us but at least he has been given a chance of survival. Good luck Rupert and thanks for your efforts. Oh dear, you couldn't make it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 then this may be worth another a statue outside SMS for the man who kept us from dropping into the 3rd tier of Englsih football 50 years after the great man got us out. Maybe a more fitting tribute, would be to have his picture in all the toilet bowls at St Marys'.........IMHO of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordswoodsaints Posted 2 April, 2009 Author Share Posted 2 April, 2009 i am hearing that barclays have been given strong indications from the fa that we are likely to avoid the 10 point hit. i cant make up my mind if this is a good or bad thing?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefuriousb Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 i am hearing that barclays have been given strong indications from the fa that we are likely to avoid the 10 point hit. i cant make up my mind if this is a good or bad thing?? What does the point deduction have to do with Barclays? Any points deduction only affects football people, be that Saints or other clubs and their supporteres who may feel hard done by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 i am hearing that barclays have been given strong indications from the fa that we are likely to avoid the 10 point hit. i cant make up my mind if this is a good or bad thing?? How could it possibly be a bad thing?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint In Exile Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 What does the point deduction have to do with Barclays? Any points deduction only affects football people, be that Saints or other clubs and their supporteres who may feel hard done by. Surely it also affects the likelihood of finding another buyer for the club who can deal with the overdraft, as without a 10 point penalty the club is a slightly more attractive proposition.... Something Barclays are very very interested in!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordswoodsaints Posted 2 April, 2009 Author Share Posted 2 April, 2009 What does the point deduction have to do with Barclays? Any points deduction only affects football people, be that Saints or other clubs and their supporteres who may feel hard done by. probably because barclays didnt want to leave us too much in the sh1t.....basically giving us a leaving present. also they cant be seen to be destroying a football club (or contributing) as they sponsor the prem,they want to come out of this smelling of roses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 i am hearing that barclays have been given strong indications from the fa that we are likely to avoid the 10 point hit. i cant make up my mind if this is a good or bad thing?? A good thing for us,especially if we avoid the drop this season because of it. In a wider context it would be a bit of a farce,and a loophole the League would swiftly close. Without doubting what you may have heard,I'm not sure the FA have any say in this.Does it not rest with the Football League to determine ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capel Saint Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 I don't think it is a farce if Saints escaped the 10 point deduction. The club has to look after itself and if a couple of other chairman scream 'foul' then that is up to them. In a point of law, I wouldn;t have thought the FA can suddenly change the law to punish a club just because it has expolited a loophole. Sure the FA can close it afterwards but I can't see them being able to legally defend their decision if they tried to deduct Saints points now. It's fooked the club under this current structure so it would be good to have one small positive for Saints to have been run by a plc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 Exactly, they are probably rueing the day they didn't have a visionary chairman to implement a structure that would ultimately save them if the lunatics ever took over the asylum and a last ditch fall back plan was needed. So the current SLH / PLC arrangement was not created to make the reverse takeover possible ? Instead, Rupert was putting in place an administrative coup de main that ensured when he came back for his second tenure, ( 'the lunatic taking over the asylum ?' ), and we crashed and burned, we could wriggle out of League rules that at that point did not even exist. Now that IS visionary ! :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ITKSaint Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 This whole thread is based on a very big if. Most of the comments we've seen so far about not receiving a fine seem to be based on the initial damage limitation exercise by the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 Whilst there may be a chance that the PLC structure might save us a points deduction, you seem to be forgetting tht when we moved to that way of working in 1996 there were no rules regarding points deductions following administration so it was never on the horizon. It's just an accidental by product of our current status and decision to circumvent Rule 34 (and that's assuming we get away with it). Come and see me in the Itchen South (block 10) this Saturday and we can discuss this like adults and have a chat about Lowe's second tenure ending in abject failure Accidental or visionary? Whichever way you dress it up are you now telling me you sit in Block 10 despite the feedback I was given by SG after your discussions with him? Blimey you'll be telling me you sit in row J next. Discuss it like adults? That would be interesting based on the behaviour of some I have seen this season in block 10, I'll make sure I bring my ST so I have something to wave - at least for the next 3 home games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 So the current SLH / PLC arrangement was not created to make the reverse takeover possible ? Instead, Rupert was putting in place an administrative coup de main that ensured when he came back for his second tenure, ( 'the lunatic taking over the asylum ?' ), and we crashed and burned, we could wriggle out of League rules that at that point did not even exist. Now that IS visionary ! :rolleyes: Exactly! He should move into politics don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weston Super Saint Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 You guys seem to be forgetting this is SFC we're talking about, and the FA has NEVER done a favour for us. I reckon we will therefore get : -15 points this season - just to make sure AND -20 points next season - just because Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Horne Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 This whole thread is based on a very big if. Most of the comments we've seen so far about not receiving a fine seem to be based on the initial damage limitation exercise by the club. Whether we get a 10-point penalty will be irrelevant unless someone comes up with some cash to save the club from going out of business full stop. As I see it, the club's survival in any league has got to be our priority now, we'll worry about the points later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 Exactly! He should move into politics don't you think? Yes, he should have a second stint at that as well... and I expect he would crash and burn at that again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefuriousb Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 probably because barclays didnt want to leave us too much in the sh1t.....basically giving us a leaving present. also they cant be seen to be destroying a football club (or contributing) as they sponsor the prem,they want to come out of this smelling of roses. That's pretty much the sub-text of my question.... The fact that morally they too are in a difficult position, given that they sponsor the PL. The PL is the reason why many clubs outside (and inside) of it are not operating within their means and are chasing a dream As for them wanting to ensure a buyer comes forward, then should they not have considered that when they refused to effectively help the company do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFKA South Woodford Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 Also, for clarification, any company can have a holding company like SLH (i.e. not necessarily a PLC but does a company that does basically nothing but own shares in another company, in this case a football club). The FA will be thinking "what next?" and, if allowed to get away with it, before long you'll see all clubs putting holding companies over the top of them for next to no cost. 'Our' PLC has no other business really and it is without a doubt a p*sstake and against the spirit of the rules. It might on the face of it be within the rules, but it is quite frankly taking the p*ss and I will be amazed if we get away with it. I'm fairly sure Leeds effectively did the same (i.e. technically ok, but against the spirit of the rules) and they had the book thrown at them. It will be thrown at us as well I would think. Not entirely true, the parent company also own, the event management company we hear so much about and have owned a commercial radio station. So can prove that they have or have had a portfolio of different businesses, rather than just having been the parent company of the football club. Technicalities can make all the difference in business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer Engine Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 If you look on the OS under Investors the opening statement about SLH PLC is:- "The Company is the holding company of a group whose principal activity is the operation of a professional football club. Chances of the Football league letting us get away with it on a transparent technicality are very slim IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFKA South Woodford Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 then i would imagine that leeds,luton,bournemouth etc etc will try and take action against them,i know i would if i was involved with one of those clubs as it is a bit of a p1ss take. dont get me wrong,i hope we can bend the rules and avoid the 10 points but by doing so we will become the most unpopular club in the country,especially by the above mentioned clubs and any other clubs that are sailing close to the wind with the finances.[/quote And if they do we have a good case against them given the other clubs they've allowed to do exactly the same. Just because those clubs you mention went into admin and got docked points doesn't mean we should, our club won't be in administration. It's annoying people are making it into some big con when others have done exactly the same in the past and the FA and football league have said it's okay. Exactly, they can't punish Saints for not breaking their rules and just doing what others have done and gotten away with. Whatever next, punishing the big four for not having the assets to furnish their debts? As they have been mis managed into huge debts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 Exactly, they can't punish Saints for not breaking their rules and just doing what others have done and gotten away with. Whatever next, punishing the big four for not having the assets to furnish their debts? As they have been mis managed into huge debts. Chelsea have much bigger debts than we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattlehead Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 Not entirely true, the parent company also own, the event management company we hear so much about and have owned a commercial radio station. So can prove that they have or have had a portfolio of different businesses, rather than just having been the parent company of the football club. Technicalities can make all the difference in business. Almost certainly insignificant activities and I strongly suspect the creditors we can't afford to pay have been run up by the football club (in whatever guise). The man on the Clapham Omnibus would think this is a broke football club and that, I think, is how the Football League will probably look at it. As I said, I hope I'm wrong but I will be amazed if we get away with this. As to those who did the same and got away with it? Who is that exactly? I believe Derby did it (just) before the new rules were implemented. Anyone else (genuine question)? And re the 'Big 4' - they can presumably afford to pay their creditors so completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Godfather Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 I cannot see how we can avoid not getting ten points penalty but we'll find out next Tuesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 SLH are a public company that owns the shares of another company SFC. The FA required SFC to be a separate entity not subject to public company law but subservient to FA/League rules. That company at this time are not in administration and apart from being owned by SLH are legally unconnected. If SFC remain solvent, pay their debts and fulfill their fixtures and liabilities in accordance with the rules the football authorities would have no case to deduct points. The clubs named here are not quoted plcs but limited companies that comply with football rules which a plc would not have to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 SLH are a public company that owns the shares of another company SFC. The FA required SFC to be a separate entity not subject to public company law but subservient to FA/League rules. That company at this time are not in administration and apart from being owned by SLH are legally unconnected. If SFC remain solvent, pay their debts and fulfill their fixtures and liabilities in accordance with the rules the football authorities would have no case to deduct points. The clubs named here are not quoted plcs but limited companies that comply with football rules which a plc would not have to do. Well I'm sure you're right Derry. However to me this is just ledgerbook juggling. The PLC's debts come from the FC Ltd and the FL will see it exactly that way.If they don't everybody will jump on the bandwagon and buy Kaka with money they don't have and simply transfer the cost to an Aims listed PLC expressly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 Whichever way you dress it up are you now telling me you sit in Block 10 despite the feedback I was given by SG after your discussions with him? Blimey you'll be telling me you sit in row J next. Discuss it like adults? That would be interesting based on the behaviour of some I have seen this season in block 10, I'll make sure I bring my ST so I have something to wave - at least for the next 3 home games. You tell me where I sit, after all you continually post up here (before it is quite rightly removed) stating that you have seen me running amok in Block 10.:---):---):---):---) Fact is like most of your posts on here, it's either bullsht, lies or twaddle.:rolleyes::rolleyes: Come over and say hello on Saturday, after all you know who I am and where I sit:D:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 You tell me where I sit, after all you continually post up here (before it is quite rightly removed) stating that you have seen me running amok in Block 10.:---):---):---):---) Fact is like most of your posts on here, it's either bullsht, lies or twaddle.:rolleyes::rolleyes: Come over and say hello on Saturday, after all you know who I am and where I sit:D:D Apparently I don't know where you sit Um so please confirm. I didn't use the words 'run amok' and in any case I was told it wasn't you because you don't sit in block 10, so please accept my apologies if I got the wrong end of the stick. All I saw was some idiot having a go at some fellow fans who were minding there own business trying to enjoy the game and then said idiots inviting the entire block outside - what for I can't imagine. All very childish a bit like the over use of emoticons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nineteen Canteen Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 lol At last a bloke with a sense of humour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamesaint Posted 2 April, 2009 Share Posted 2 April, 2009 Exactly! He should move into politics don't you think? He lost his deposit when he stood for Parliament before. I wonder if he has ever won at anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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