Hillsborough rememberance?

[1976_Child]

Anyone else think it was weird that we didn't have a minute silence before the game kicked off today?

 

I was honestly expecting it. I saw on MOTD2 that Liverpool fell quiet, which is only natural, but I imagined a moment's reflection would be observed by all fixtures this weekend.

 

I was all of 13 years old when it happened but I can remember the TV news like it was yesterday.

 

It must be weird standing in the Leppings Lane end at Wednesday even after these last twenty years, going through that tunnel.

 

Never again.

[Badger]

I think you'll find that the Liverpool supporters manage to provide all the reflection,and an outpouring of grief that is sufficient for the rest of the nation.

 

I was not expecting anything before todays game,and don't feel it was necessary for us frankly.Where do we stop ? The Bradford fire is equally deserving of remembrance,then there is Heysel.And New Year fixtures might also stop for the Ibrox disaster.

 

Oh,and then theres Munich.

[Papa Shango]

As tragic as it was I don't agree that there should have been a minutes silence. It didn't have anything to do with Southampton FC, so I don't see why we should hold a minutes silence. There have been plenty of other similar tragic events as well, Heysel, Bradford fire, Ibrox, Ivory Coast and others. Where do you draw the line? It might sound harsh, but if we start doing minutes silence for all these terrible events in football, we'd being doing them practically every week.

[Arizona]

Wouldn't have been surprised by a minutes silence, but at the same time it was 20 years ago and nothing to do with Saints. As badger said, if we did that, surely we'd have minutes silences for every 10 year aniversary of Heysel, Munich, Bradford, that stadium that collapsed in Brazil etc. This on top of a minutes silence for 10 years after Bates, Ball, Stokes etc. died. Before you know it there'd be a minutes silence every month and it would lose all meaning.

[1976_Child]

Wouldn't have been surprised by a minutes silence, but at the same time it was 20 years ago and nothing to do with Saints.

 

fair enough, I can understand that sentiment.

 

But the event was unique in that it changed the way football clubs dealt with fans. The fact that Wednesday called allotted segments of their terraces "pens" speaks (spoke?) volumes; we should be thankful that we are not so contained and regulated at modern grounds like SMS.

 

And as for the opinion that it was nothing to do with Saints: we still (rightly) remember the fallen from the first world war during remembrance Sunday, but it could be argued that that event had nothing to do with anyone, anywhere in 2009 (save a half-dozen souls still going strong). But we do remember because of what it was.

 

That event at Wednesday twenty years back did have ramifications for all of football, and I believe football now is safer as a result.

 

And so perhaps it would have been proper to fall silent and hold our breath for a while; to remember..

[Arizona]

fair enough, I can understand that sentiment.

 

But the event was unique in that it changed the way football clubs dealt with fans. The fact that Wednesday called allotted segments of their terraces "pens" speaks (spoke?) volumes; we should be thankful that we are not so contained and regulated at modern grounds like SMS.

 

And as for the opinion that it was nothing to do with Saints: we still (rightly) remember the fallen from the first world war during remembrance Sunday, but it could be argued that that event had nothing to do with anyone, anywhere in 2009 (save a half-dozen souls still going strong). But we do remember because of what it was.

 

That event at Wednesday twenty years back did have ramifications for all of football, and I believe football now is safer as a result.

 

And so perhaps it would have been proper to fall silent and hold our breath for a while; to remember..

 

Ok several things...

 

1. The away fans were 'penned' in due to a large hooligan element in English football at the time. Ironically, the fences were put up in part due to the Liverpool fans actions at Heysel. Many grounds were redesigned with pens after Heysel, it wasn't really the grounds fault.

 

2. You can't seriously compare Hillsborough to WW1. Aside from the massive difference in death toll, WW1 was a worldwide event which has directly and indirectly affected the shaped of the world as we know it. Millions of young men died fighting for our freedom. It has everything to do with everyone at SMS.

 

3. As I said, too many minutes silences and they just lose all meaning. A minutes silence the weekend after the disaster, sure. But for the aniversary? That's a bit too far removed IMO.

[1976_Child]

Ok several things...

 

1. The away fans were 'penned' in due to a large hooligan element in English football at the time. Ironically, the fences were put up in part due to the Liverpool fans actions at Heysel. Many grounds were redesigned with pens after Heysel, it wasn't really the grounds fault.

 

2. You can't seriously compare Hillsborough to WW1. Aside from the massive difference in death toll, WW1 was a worldwide event which has directly and indirectly affected the shaped of the world as we know it. Millions of young men died fighting for our freedom. It has everything to do with everyone at SMS.

 

3. As I said, too many minutes silences and they just lose all meaning. A minutes silence the weekend after the disaster, sure. But for the aniversary? That's a bit too far removed IMO.

 

Answer:

 

1. Ok, sure, but now we don't 'pen' people into the Northam end, thank God.

 

2. Was not comparing like-for-like in death tolls, as you prescribe. I was making the point that we still (rightly) remember that they died. The auxiliary to our present society of the dead in WW1 was peace ( until old mustachio took over), and the point I was making was that the events at Wednesday did drastically make football safer..

 

3. Sure, the 'Diana' effect is nauseating if too-oft repeated. But given our community, and given the scale of the event, and given that it is still in peoples minds it would not have been out of place..

 

Any way, here's to all us football fans every where.

[Arizona]

All fair enough. I just don't really see any reason why a completely unassociated club should hold a minuted silence 20 years later.

[maxi_sopez]

I was born a few months after Hilsborough, but only this year have i realised how shockingly awful it was... People dying standing up, many kinds and women just awful. Equally if i go to Hilsborough on saturday i find that very weird that i will be standing where those 96 died, will there be any tributes as we are nearest game to the annivesary ?

[The Godfather]

The terrible events at Hillsborough that fateful day changed the face of english football for us the fans. The comfortable stadiums & facilities we have today in this country, where it is safe to watch football and take your family wouldn't exist if that day had never happened. I thinks its very short sited to say "its nothing to do with SFC", its everything to do with every football club & fan in this country.

Although the anniversary is tomorrow, I hope their is a minute silence at Hillsborough when we play there on Saturday. Its an event that should never be forgotten in football circles.

[Chorlton]

I think the cities of Liverpool, Nottingham & Sheffield have all observed, or are going to observe minutes silence this week so there may not be anything at Hillsborough this Saturday.

 

Incidentally, all clubs had a minutes silence for the 10th anniversary. think ours was before that 3-3 draw at home to Blackburn. But I don't think it shold have been all clubs for the 20th.

[CB Fry]

Ok several things...

 

1. The away fans were 'penned' in due to a large hooligan element in English football at the time. Ironically, the fences were put up in part due to the Liverpool fans actions at Heysel. Many grounds were redesigned with pens after Heysel, it wasn't really the grounds fault.

 

2. You can't seriously compare Hillsborough to WW1. Aside from the massive difference in death toll, WW1 was a worldwide event which has directly and indirectly affected the shaped of the world as we know it. Millions of young men died fighting for our freedom. It has everything to do with everyone at SMS.

 

3. As I said, too many minutes silences and they just lose all meaning. A minutes silence the weekend after the disaster, sure. But for the aniversary? That's a bit too far removed IMO.

 

 

Can also add to this that rememberance sunday stopped being about WW1 a long, long time ago.

 

It's about remembering and thanking all servicemen who died in service for this country and others in all conflicts. Ever.

 

For anyone to describe it as "just" remembering the first world war that doesn't mean anything to anyone is crass in the extreme.

[Victor]

fair enough, I can understand that sentiment.

 

But the event was unique in that it changed the way football clubs dealt with fans. The fact that Wednesday called allotted segments of their terraces "pens" speaks (spoke?) volumes; we should be thankful that we are not so contained and regulated at modern grounds like SMS.

 

And as for the opinion that it was nothing to do with Saints: we still (rightly) remember the fallen from the first world war during remembrance Sunday, but it could be argued that that event had nothing to do with anyone, anywhere in 2009 (save a half-dozen souls still going strong). But we do remember because of what it was.

 

That event at Wednesday twenty years back did have ramifications for all of football, and I believe football now is safer as a result.

 

And so perhaps it would have been proper to fall silent and hold our breath for a while; to remember..

 

 

You seem a little confused. A minute's silence is to remember the dead. Improvement of football stadiums is a cause for celebration.

 

If it is a case of remembering the dead, I am with those who say 'no' as those at Heysel etc. are equally deserving and. sadly, the list of tradgedies continues to increase.

[Arizona]

Can also add to this that rememberance sunday stopped being about WW1 a long, long time ago.

 

It's about remembering and thanking all servicemen who died in service for this country and others in all conflicts. Ever.

 

For anyone to describe it as "just" remembering the first world war that doesn't mean anything to anyone is crass in the extreme.

 

I know rememberence Sunday is about remembering everyone killed or injured in conflict, although the date is based around the end of WW1. I was simply responding to 1976Cs claim that it wasn't relevant to anyone at SMS.

[CB Fry]

I know rememberence Sunday is about remembering everyone killed or injured in conflict. I was simply responding to 1976Cs claim that it wasn't relevant to anyone at SMS.

 

 

Err - I was adding to what you said, which is why I said, "can I just add to that".

 

I wasn't disagreeing with you.

[Arizona]

Good. As long as we're all friends.

[Stirchleysaint]

Hillsborough shouldn't be forgotten because it represented the nadir of policing of football in this country. Not everybody died that day before 3:15, some died as late as 4pm. Both shameful and subject to a cover-up by the authorities. Its the lies which continue to make this disaster a campaign. There needs to be justice. Until that happens, families are stuck in the grieving process.

[Um Bongo]

Minutes silence will be held this Saturday at hillsborough before kick off.

[Arizona]

Hillsborough shouldn't be forgotten because it represented the nadir of policing of football in this country. Not everybody died that day before 3:15, some died as late as 4pm. Both shameful and subject to a cover-up by the authorities. Its the lies which continue to make this disaster a campaign. There needs to be justice. Until that happens, families are stuck in the grieving process.

 

I really don't get this 'justice' that scousers and certain other people seem to be after. It seems to me as just an excuse to have a dig at the Police, when in reality there were many factors which lead to the accident.

 

Poor policing was a factor, as was the design of the ground and the fact that hundreds of p*ssed up fans without tickets were trying to get into the ground. It's not like the Stockwell Tube station shooting. The Police ad stewards were trying to relieve the situation by opening the side doors, which only exacerbated things.

[Stirchleysaint]

I really don't get this 'justice' that scousers and certain other people seem to be after. It seems to me as just an excuse to have a dig at the Police, when in reality there were many factors which lead to the accident.

 

Poor policing was a factor, as was the design of the ground and the fact that hundreds of p*ssed up fans without tickets were trying to get into the ground. It's not like the Stockwell Tube station shooting. The Police ad stewards were trying to relieve the situation by opening the side doors, which only exacerbated things.

I suggest you read the Taylor Report. Crowd behaviour didn't have a significant effect on the tragedy. There was traffic problems which delayed coaches. Police stop ad search also delayed people. But the most serious was that there wasn't any management of the crowd within the stadium. Had the police and stewards when the gate was opened directed the latecomers to the pens which weren't filled (look at the photos for evidence of that), the deaths could have been significantly reduced or avoided. Still, if you want to believe the Sun's version of events...

 

As for the notion of "justice", there was a cover-up attempted by South Yorkshire Police through briefing the media about the fans. The coroner's cut-off point of 3:15pm was a political decision.

 

Its not about the mistakes that were made that lead to the disaster happening, its the behaviour of the authorities in response to and afterwards which is the source of anger.

[londonsaint1604]

The police only let 1 ambulance into the ground when there were more waiting outside, and there were people whose lives could have been saved if they'd received medical attention.

[CB Fry]

I suggest you read the Taylor Report. Crowd behaviour didn't have a significant effect on the tragedy. There was traffic problems which delayed coaches. Police stop ad search also delayed people. But the most serious was that there wasn't any management of the crowd within the stadium. Had the police and stewards when the gate was opened directed the latecomers to the pens which weren't filled (look at the photos for evidence of that), the deaths could have been significantly reduced or avoided. Still, if you want to believe the Sun's version of events...

 

As for the notion of "justice", there was a cover-up attempted by South Yorkshire Police through briefing the media about the fans. The coroner's cut-off point of 3:15pm was a political decision.

 

Its not about the mistakes that were made that lead to the disaster happening, its the behaviour of the authorities in response to and afterwards which is the source of anger.

 

 

This is fair enough, read a good article about all that stuff in the Guardian yesterday. The police have some serious questions to answer, as do the management of SWFC.

 

But the fact remains if there weren't thousands of ****ed up scousers in and around the ground without tickets then the tragedy would never have happened. And there were thousands of ****ed up Liverpool fans in Heysel as well, but of course that was all someone else's fault as well, as it always is when Liverpool are concerned.

[Arizona]

I suggest you read the Taylor Report. Crowd behaviour didn't have a significant effect on the tragedy. There was traffic problems which delayed coaches. Police stop ad search also delayed people. But the most serious was that there wasn't any management of the crowd within the stadium. Had the police and stewards when the gate was opened directed the latecomers to the pens which weren't filled (look at the photos for evidence of that), the deaths could have been significantly reduced or avoided. Still, if you want to believe the Sun's version of events...

 

As for the notion of "justice", there was a cover-up attempted by South Yorkshire Police through briefing the media about the fans. The coroner's cut-off point of 3:15pm was a political decision.

 

Its not about the mistakes that were made that lead to the disaster happening, its the behaviour of the authorities in response to and afterwards which is the source of anger.

 

I don't believe the suns version of events at all, but like it or not, there was more to that incident than just poor policing.

 

The Taylor report did ciriticise the policing heavily, but also acknowledged there were many factors and suggested improvement to grounds, such as all seater stadiums and the removal of barriers and fences.

 

It just seems odd to me that a tragic accident, which was the culmination of a number of events, is being blamed on the Police.

[londonsaint1604]

I don't believe the suns version of events at all, but like it or not, there was more to that incident than just poor policing.

 

The Taylor report did ciriticise the policing heavily, but also acknowledged there were many factors and suggested improvement to grounds, such as all seater stadiums and the removal of barriers and fences.

 

It just seems odd to me that a tragic accident, which was the culmination of a number of events, is being blamed on the Police.

 

I see your point and there were indeed many different factors that contributed to the disaster. However, the responsibility ultimately lies with the police because it was their job to control the crowd and they failed to do that.

[notnowcato]

This is fair enough, read a good article about all that stuff in the Guardian yesterday. The police have some serious questions to answer, as do the management of SWFC.

 

But the fact remains if there weren't thousands of ****ed up scousers in and around the ground without tickets then the tragedy would never have happened. And there were thousands of ****ed up Liverpool fans in Heysel as well, but of course that was all someone else's fault as well, as it always is when Liverpool are concerned.

 

And lots of ****ed up scousers in Athens and Istanbul not so long ago... the pictures and stories I've heard of events make it very difficult not to have a bad taste in the mouth when considering the events that their fans were subjected to in Sheffield.

[Griffo]

And lots of ****ed up scousers in Athens and Istanbul not so long ago... the pictures and stories I've heard of events make it very difficult not to have a bad taste in the mouth when considering the events that their fans were subjected to in Sheffield.

 

What stories? Of what? Explain?

[notnowcato]

From the Soccernet website... there are plenty of other reports on the internet

 

May 24, 2007

UEFA's head of communications William Gaillard has pointed the finger at Liverpool fans after crowd and ticketing problems marred the Champions League final against AC Milan in Athens.

 

 

Rafael Benitez's side went down 2-1 to Milan on the night but many Reds fans with genuine tickets were not allowed inside the Olympic stadium while others managed to breach security with forged tickets or none at all.

 

 

While many Liverpool supporters blamed UEFA's ticketing policy and the Greek authorities, Gaillard insisted a minority of Reds fans were the cause of the problems which saw their fellow Merseysiders suffer as a result.

 

Gaillard told Sky Sports News: 'There is no doubt some Liverpool fans are to blame and at the same time some Liverpool fans were also the victims of the behaviour of other Liverpool fans.'

He also insisted supporters should take 'collective responsibility' and accept their actions had harmed others.

 

'There were statements in the media that people shouldn't buy from websites that weren't authorised to sell tickets,' Gaillard continued.

 

'And that people without tickets shouldn't go to the stadium. There were festivals in town where they could see on the wide screen.

 

'Unfortunately, they went to the stadium and they went earlier than people with valid tickets.

 

'There was some light fighting with the police - unfortunately some people managed to climb barriers and entered the stadium when they should not have been there.

 

'And then we had an overcrowded Liverpool end when there probably was a few thousand people who should not have been there.

'Fortunately because the Greek police used rather soft policing techniques no-one was hurt.

 

'But we had a very overcrowded Liverpool end with alleys filled with people - particularly without tickets - and then as a consequence we learn that some people with valid tickets could not even get in.

 

'So I think it is a question here of collective responsibility. Fans who do these things which are illegal in all countries of the world should understand that they are denying their rights to people who are legitimate in the stadium.'

 

Gaillard believes the incidents were not isolated, comparing the actions of the Reds fans last night to their behaviour in Istanbul two years ago.

 

'Their behaviour should be more controlled,' he continued.

'In Istanbul I was there at the Champions festival outside the stadium. The moment before the game (when) we said the Champions festival closes, no more beer, go into the stadium, the Milan fans went straight to the stadium. Unfortunately the minority of Liverpool fans trashed the place.

 

'So, I want to examine the situation. In Liverpool, talk to the fans, people who are responsible for the associations and I think there should be some self-criticism on their part.'

 

Gaillard deflected criticism of the police outside the stadium, saying: 'There is no doubt at one point the Greek police - because they were faced with rather aggressive people - lost a bit of control of the situation.

 

'I think their priority was that no-one should get hurt.

 

'But of course in the end a few hours before the game the situation was so tense and potentially so dangerous that probably the Greek police thought `just let them in' because what is the alternative - beat them up?'

Edited 14 April, 2009 by notnowcato

[CB Fry]

What stories? Of what? Explain?

 

 

LOL. Like examples of Liverpool fans acting like tw a t s are difficult to come by.

 

The worst combination in the world - horrible bullying intimidating gobs hi tes combined with a percecution complex and a gigantic chip on their shell suit shoulder.

 

Liverpool is the only city I've ever felt unsafe in on an away day.

 

Some might believe them to be latter day saints who only ever are done wrong to but the rest of us know different.

[jeff leopard]

The police only let 1 ambulance into the ground when there were more waiting outside, and there were people whose lives could have been saved if they'd received medical attention.

 

 

This is the real tragedy, many of those who were crushed and passed out would have survived if they'd been placed in the recovery position once they reached the pitch.

 

Also, the mentality of 'bloody scousers, they deserved it' seemed to steam from the how the police acted on the day and is still alive and well on this thread.

[CB Fry]

This is the real tragedy, many of those who were crushed and passed out would have survived if they'd been placed in the recovery position once they reached the pitch.

 

Also, the mentality of 'bloody scousers, they deserved it' seemed to steam from the how the police acted on the day and is still alive and well on this thread.

 

 

Nice try. No-one is saying they deserved anything, but they are quick to spread blame but not take responsibility.

 

I'll repeat - if there weren't thousands of ****ed up and ticketless scousers hanging around the ground this would not have happened, regardless of what happened subsequently.

 

And there might have been no cages around the perimeter where it not for Heysel which of course was an event where Liverpool fans completely blamelessly and accidentally caused the death of 39 Juventus fans. But then they started it, la.

[Arizona]

This is the real tragedy, many of those who were crushed and passed out would have survived if they'd been placed in the recovery position once they reached the pitch.

 

Also, the mentality of 'bloody scousers, they deserved it' seemed to steam from the how the police acted on the day and is still alive and well on this thread.

 

The ambulences is the bit I really don't get. Maybe the Police thought they would just make the crowding worse, or that another crush would develop as fans swamped the ambulance crews. Who knows.

 

And nobody is saying they deserve it because they are scousers, I certainly am not. However I do think the fact that a lot of fans without tickets, many of them drunk, were trying to force their way in, played a large part in the disaster.

 

Also the fences would probably not have been built at all if it weren't for the Heysel disaster, which was in itself caused by Liverpool hooligans.

[Block 5]

Some of the attitudes on this thread beggar belief!

I will be there on Saturday and I will remember the 96 football fans who died, regardless of race, creed or club.

 

Nuff said!

[Arizona]

Some of the attitudes on this thread beggar belief!

I will be there on Saturday and I will remember the 96 football fans who died, regardless of race, creed or club.

 

Nuff said!

 

Explain.

[Fan The Flames]

Shock horror, ****ed up lads outside a football ground. No matter how many ticketless fans turned up, they shouldn't have been let in. The police should have delayed the match and dealt with the crowd outside, but it was easier to have them in the ground inside of roaming the streets.

 

The police made a hugh mistake and as concluded by the Taylor report their slice of the blame is the largest. Just like every time they are at fault they close ranks and never face up to their responsibilities the cop in charge of his first major game even lied at first and said that the fans stromed the gate.

 

What a surprise the CCTV tapes disappeared, just like the did at Stockwell and recently at the G20.

[Saint137]

Nice try. No-one is saying they deserved anything, but they are quick to spread blame but not take responsibility.

 

I'll repeat - if there weren't thousands of ****ed up and ticketless scousers hanging around the ground this would not have happened, regardless of what happened subsequently.

 

And there might have been no cages around the perimeter where it not for Heysel which of course was an event where Liverpool fans completely blamelessly and accidentally caused the death of 39 Juventus fans. But then they started it, la.

 

Fact: The Taylor report laid the blame solely at the feet of poor policing, and found no evidence to suggest that there were significant numbers of ****ed up and ticketless scousers outside.

 

The ****ed up ticketless scousers myth was conjured up by South Yorks police to try to cover up their blatant disregard for the safety of the fans in those pens.

[Block 5]

Explain.

 

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet as regards this thread, Arizona.

 

I don't want to become embroiled in the anti-scouse generalisations in this thread.

I have many good friends from that city, both red and blue.

[The9]

Interesting during all the anti-scouser mudslinging that no-one's mentioned that Saints already have a minutes' silence at the nearest home game to Nov 1st, no matter what else happens.

 

For the record, Heysel had no bearing on fences whatsoever, as football grounds already had them long before that disaster, and by Heysel in 1985 Ken Bates at Chelsea was even trying to get them electrified as a result of the ongoing hooligan problem which was pretty much everywhere... Heysel was widely blamed on Combat 18 and NF infiltration, there were flyers everywhere (and no doubt the stupid and gullible up for a fight who lent weight to their charge which caused the wall to collapse at the unsafe stadium didn't help).

 

Hillsborough, the Report on which formed quite a large chunk of my university dissertation back in 1994 (it was about "Policing Football Hooliganism"), was mostly down to the police choosing to open the main gate in response to the crowd outside, despite not having any idea of numbers inside any of the sections and thus not channeling the crowd away from the already overcrowded centre pen into the less crammed side sections. And of course most of this was pretty normal for the 80s, exacerbated on the day by traffic problems and the fans having to get to the opposite ends of the ground from the cities most of them had travelled from.

 

As I always remind people, not only did Justice Taylor not blame drunks or ticketless fans (hardly an uncommon sight at big games), he didn't even outright recommend all-seater stadia, he merely said it was clearly the easiest method of measuring numbers inside sections of the ground and preventing overcrowding - clubs had already taken this on board by providing reduced, monitored, ticketing to terraces in 1990 before the government insisted on the all seater option.

 

The whole point of the Disaster changing football was the recognition that this could have happened to any group of fans at pretty much any ground at the time, and things had to change.

 

Much is made of Merseyside's persecution complex, but to me that's a feature of the 1990s which grew from other incidents since. If 96 of us didn't come back from the weekend's match at Hillsborough and there was never an adequate official explanation for our deaths following a campaign of misinformation, I suspect the rest of us might be inclined to be a little upset about it for quite a long time too.

 

Seeing as I was at Anfield watching them play Sheffield Wednesday the week before (morning kick off due to the Grand National, won by Little Polveir, Liverpool won 5-1, Carlton Palmer played for Wednesday who wore green with white hoops), I'm just glad no-one decided to take me to a game to see the League Champions play the week after as well.

 

It's not about complaining scousers, it's about football fans. You'd think with a trip to Hillsborough this weekend people might recognise that.

Edited 15 April, 2009 by The9

[Arizona]

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet as regards this thread, Arizona.

 

I don't want to become embroiled in the anti-scouse generalisations in this thread.

I have many good friends from that city, both red and blue.

 

FFS, there is no bee in my bonnet, I don't even have a particularly strong oppinion on this matter.

 

I am simply trying to make two points:

 

1. There were a number of factors which contributed to the Hillsborough disaster, including the design of the terracing and fencing, the lack of sufficient turnstiles for the number of fans, the traffic jams, large numbers of fans trying to force their way into the ground (some without tickets),the failure of the match officials to delay kick-off and poor Policing and stewarding. I am not saying, "they're just a load of p*ssed up scousers and they deserve it," at all.

 

2. Whilst the even was tragic, I really don't see as to why we need another minutes silence at all. The weekend after the disaster, sure. At the Anfield, 10/20/30 years after, yeah if they like. But I don't see why Saints or any other club needs a minutes silence just because it's 20 years and that's a nice round number.

 

P*sses me off when people twist my words around to make me look like the villain, just so they can try and take the moral high ground.

[warsash saint]

The Kelvin Mackenzie headlines days after the Hillsborough disaster & generally being a god damn awful rag are the main reason why I have never bought a copy of The Sun since that day.

[redkeith]

When we first heard about the disaster my mind wen't back to the Saints game there in 84. I was stood in the middle pen and it was packed. Every time Saints attacked I was picked up of the ground by the weight of bodies, but I was always lucky enough to end up back on my feet. Not pleasent, but it was so full that you couldn't get out until the game was over. Freinds of mine were stood in the side pens and had plenty of space.

 

When you get in the gate at that end, all you can see is the back of the stand, with one tunnel in the middle, and no obvious sign posting. Most people went straight down the tunnel into the crush.

 

I always said afterwards that it was the worst away end I had ever been in, so I was shocked but not suprised by the news. The Leppings Lane End was always an accident waiting to happen.

[notnowcato]

Fact: The Taylor report laid the blame solely at the feet of poor policing, and found no evidence to suggest that there were significant numbers of ****ed up and ticketless scousers outside.

 

The ****ed up ticketless scousers myth was conjured up by South Yorks police to try to cover up their blatant disregard for the safety of the fans in those pens.

 

Fact: The above Fact is indeed not a Fact.

 

Here's the Taylor Report

 

http://www.southyorks.police.uk/sites/default/files/foi/significantpublicinterest/hillsborough%20stadium%20disaster%20final%20report.zip

[Frank's cousin]

Hillsborough shouldn't be forgotten because it represented the nadir of policing of football in this country. Not everybody died that day before 3:15, some died as late as 4pm. Both shameful and subject to a cover-up by the authorities. Its the lies which continue to make this disaster a campaign. There needs to be justice. Until that happens, families are stuck in the grieving process.

 

NO one would deny this, the policing, the inabilty to manage and control crowds and the way in which fans were treated as cattle and herded was a disgrace and if anything, hopefully this has now changed. But can someone help me out here, and I make no apologoes for asking this question, because its also an important point, how and why were there so many more fans there than had tickets? did the police just round them up and herd them into the open stand? Did fans without tickets try and get into the ground? If so do those without tickets not have to acknowledge their part in it? I dont know what the truth is on that as there have been so many conflicting reports, but it sometimes eems that as soon as anyone asks that question, you are accused of somehow being disrespectful to the tragedy and those who lost their lives. Thats not the case, but I would like to know from thsoe that do know more about how things unfolded that day.

 

Apologies, just saw the end of the thread.

[John Smith]

Without drawing away from what is quite an interesting debate, well done guys, wanted to put the Saints back in it so it's not removed.

 

On that fateful day, those of us that travelled to Upton Park were informed of the 'incident' at half time. At that moment, most reports coming out intimated that it was a hooliganism issue and not an accident.

 

WHU v Saints - Rod Wallace scored after 32 seconds in front of the away supporters, running in from the left and slotting it passed their keeper, low into the corner, near post. The Hammers equalised (I think before half time, but it may have been just after). Late into the second half, Paul Rideout leaped highest to direct the ball across the Hammers keeper to nestle in the back of the net. Final score WHU 1 Saints 2!

 

As we were all kept in after the game, the reports that had been picked up during the game were confirmed. It was an accisdent and not hooliganism that appeared to be the cause. As we walked back to the tube station, many of us stopped and watched the TV's in the shop windows of the horrors of that day. Even the police escort was slackened to allow us to take it in. There were no West Ham fans anywhere, I think they were also stuck to the TV's.

 

As we boarded the tubes, we were crushed like sardines in a tin. Crowd issues happen everywhere and at anytime. Alcohol and Crowds are a bad combination IMO, but we insist on enjoying ourselves, even if death is a possibility because of our actions.

 

Accidents are tragic, loss of life, especially of those that were so young. These people should be remembered, because it was the day British football stopped and watched people dieing on TV because they supported their club.

[Doctoroncall]

NO one would deny this, the policing, the inabilty to manage and control crowds and the way in which fans were treated as cattle and herded was a disgrace and if anything, hopefully this has now changed. But can someone help me out here, and I make no apologoes for asking this question, because its also an important point, how and why were there so many more fans there than had tickets? did the police just round them up and herd them into the open stand? Did fans without tickets try and get into the ground? If so do those without tickets not have to acknowledge their part in it? I dont know what the truth is on that as there have been so many conflicting reports, but it sometimes eems that as soon as anyone asks that question, you are accused of somehow being disrespectful to the tragedy and those who lost their lives. Thats not the case, but I would like to know from thsoe that do know more about how things unfolded that day.

 

Apologies, just saw the end of the thread.

 

FC, from the report it states about ticketless fans "Although I found there was not a large body of such fans at Hillsborough there undoubtedly were some."

 

It doesn't go into detail about the effect of the ticketless fans but I summise that the fans without tickets were a minor, perhaps insignificant contributing factor to the overall scheme of having so many fans arrive at the same time caused by traffic jams, location of entry points and police control as well as not delaying the start so fans were wanting to get in as quickly as possible.

Edited 15 April, 2009 by Doctoroncall

[krissyboy31]

Ticketless fans were a way of life back then because there were so few all-ticket games, that most people believed that they could get into the ground, whether they had a ticket or not. I, myself, managed to blag my way into Wembley for 2 FA Cup finals in the 80's, without tickets.

 

I think the design of the terrace and the "brilliant idea" of fencing and penning the fans in was the biggest contributory factor to this disaster. As a previous poster has stated, when we played the '84 quarter final there, that middle pen was dangerously overloaded and could have caused a similar tragedy. If Highbury had have been designed in a similar way, we would most certainly been involved in a monumental tragedy, the first away game after Keegan signed (not an all ticket game). That evening there was an official crowd of something like 53,000 but anyone who was there, will confirm there was at least half as many again at the game. The police there, opened several gates to let the crowds in and my brothers and I ended up in the North Bank (only getting in at half-time) and I swear my feet hardly touched the ground until we left the stadium.

[Snowballs2]

With the Hillsboro rememberance it should be remembered the reason why we have all seater stadiums, and those who still want to stand should not go to matches, safety is paramount

[Lets B Avenue]

Without drawing away from what is quite an interesting debate, well done guys, wanted to put the Saints back in it so it's not removed.

 

On that fateful day, those of us that travelled to Upton Park were informed of the 'incident' at half time. At that moment, most reports coming out intimated that it was a hooliganism issue and not an accident.

 

WHU v Saints - Rod Wallace scored after 32 seconds in front of the away supporters, running in from the left and slotting it passed their keeper, low into the corner, near post. The Hammers equalised (I think before half time, but it may have been just after). Late into the second half, Paul Rideout leaped highest to direct the ball across the Hammers keeper to nestle in the back of the net. Final score WHU 1 Saints 2!

 

As we were all kept in after the game, the reports that had been picked up during the game were confirmed. It was an accisdent and not hooliganism that appeared to be the cause. As we walked back to the tube station, many of us stopped and watched the TV's in the shop windows of the horrors of that day. Even the police escort was slackened to allow us to take it in. There were no West Ham fans anywhere, I think they were also stuck to the TV's.

 

As we boarded the tubes, we were crushed like sardines in a tin. Crowd issues happen everywhere and at anytime. Alcohol and Crowds are a bad combination IMO, but we insist on enjoying ourselves, even if death is a possibility because of our actions.

 

Accidents are tragic, loss of life, especially of those that were so young. These people should be remembered, because it was the day British football stopped and watched people dieing on TV because they supported their club.

 

Ironically, me and my mates missed the start and Wallace's goal after a long walk from a not so local boozer. Fortunately there was no congestion and we walked straight into the away section.

 

I had a radio with me and was asked how the semi-finals were going. At first I couldnt work out why there was no match commentary apart from a few reports from the Everton-Luton game.

 

The game at Hillsborough had obviously been stopped but when the announcer (Des Lynham?) first mentioned deaths the game in front of us ceased to matter. It was just a case of hearing the death toll move up every few minutes and when Rideout scored there was hardly any celebrating from our section.

 

The following Tuesday we played Norwich at home and I couldnt face going and from what I was told it was a totally passionless 0-0.

[Block 5]

FFS, there is no bee in my bonnet, I don't even have a particularly strong oppinion on this matter.

 

I am simply trying to make two points:

 

1. There were a number of factors which contributed to the Hillsborough disaster, including the design of the terracing and fencing, the lack of sufficient turnstiles for the number of fans, the traffic jams, large numbers of fans trying to force their way into the ground (some without tickets),the failure of the match officials to delay kick-off and poor Policing and stewarding. I am not saying, "they're just a load of p*ssed up scousers and they deserve it," at all.

 

2. Whilst the even was tragic, I really don't see as to why we need another minutes silence at all. The weekend after the disaster, sure. At the Anfield, 10/20/30 years after, yeah if they like. But I don't see why Saints or any other club needs a minutes silence just because it's 20 years and that's a nice round number.

 

P*sses me off when people twist my words around to make me look like the villain, just so they can try and take the moral high ground.

 

Arizona mate, at no point did I say that you were being anti-scouse or making generalisations. But some on this thread are.

 

I shall be at Hillsborough on Saturday and if there is a minute's silence I shall observe it in a respectful manner, becoming to a Saints fan.

If you're there too mate, I know you will be doing the same.

[John Smith]

Ironically, me and my mates missed the start and Wallace's goal after a long walk from a not so local boozer. Fortunately there was no congestion and we walked straight into the away section.

 

I had a radio with me and was asked how the semi-finals were going. At first I couldnt work out why there was no match commentary apart from a few reports from the Everton-Luton game.

 

The game at Hillsborough had obviously been stopped but when the announcer (Des Lynham?) first mentioned deaths the game in front of us ceased to matter. It was just a case of hearing the death toll move up every few minutes and when Rideout scored there was hardly any celebrating from our section.

 

The following Tuesday we played Norwich at home and I couldnt face going and from what I was told it was a totally passionless 0-0.

 

It certainly was a weird day. From the highs of leading in the first minute, to the confusion at half time, through to that walk back to the tube and seeing those images. That day will be forever etched in my memory.

 

I was at the Norwich game and it was very subdued. The games between Saints and Norwich often had several goals in them. All round the country, people and games were subdued, it wasn't just at Saints.

 

Whatever the reasons and whoever was to blame, the repercussions were felt throughout football. It was as much historic as it was tragic, a turning point, a watershed. I think we all knew this day would come, we just didn't comprehend the magnitude of it when it did. The fact that only 96 people lost their lives is astounding. How so many escaped without death is pure luck and those people that survived and had their friends and relatives crushed to death right next to them or under their own feet, must really suffer every day.

 

We all used to enjoy the crush, the sway of the crowd, the surges and general cramming in that we experienced. For the young and the old, it was very scarey, for the older ones, it was just a game. Add alcohol to that and the aggro that it sometimes caused, we all knew it would not last.

 

I'm not saying going back to standing is the way to go, I do feel sorry for the kids today that don't experience the rawness of supporting from the terraces, but, at least they are here to watch every game and at least we won;t see the mass death toll that we did on that day again, caused by excited fans trying to watch their team in an important game.

 

We all live and breath our football teams, but supporting a football team should not cause your death, and we should be reminded that this could have happened to ANY team around that time and at many grounds. We all follow Southampton till we die, those 96 followed Liverpool until they died, and if we do not take a minute every so often to think about it, it will happen again, we shouldn't let it, and in that minute, remember that, at the end of the game, you, your friends and your family, all get to go home, on that day, many didn't.

[Doctoroncall]

If anyone wants a journalist pov (and a good one with David Conn), here is a link about why there is no closure twenty years on:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/apr/13/hillsborough-disaster-police-south-yorkshire-liverpool