View Poll Results: Saints Web Definitely Not Official Second Referendum

Voters
155. You may not vote on this poll
  • Leave Before - Leave Now

    33 21.29%
  • Leave Before - Remain Now

    8 5.16%
  • Leave Before - Not Bothered Now

    2 1.29%
  • Remain Before - Remain Now

    87 56.13%
  • Remain Before - Leave Now

    6 3.87%
  • Remain Before - Not Bothered Now

    0 0%
  • Not Bothered Before - Leave Now

    3 1.94%
  • Not Bothered Before - Remain Now

    4 2.58%
  • I've never been bothered - Why am I on this Thread?

    2 1.29%
  • No second Ref - 2016 was Definitive and Binding

    10 6.45%
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Thread: Brexit - Enter at Your Own Risk

  1. #15351

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    Ok. It's democratic for a democratically elected government, if it has clearly stated a policy in its manifesto, to take that as a mandate to implement that policy. If Johnson gets a majority he'll implement the referendum result but with a deal or no deal that bears no resemblance to what was promised in the referendum.

    As situations evolve and facts, rather than meaningless but powerful soundbites, take over it's a responsible thing to do to reconsider. Why should the snapshot in 2016 be regarded as set in stone? Having had a GE do we say that's it - no more votes? (Don't answer that. I'm sure this bunch of Tories would happily install themselves in power permanently if they could)

    To make my point:

    Captain of the Titanic: we've decided on our course and we must get it done. We're taking control.

    Passengers: But when you plotted your course you didn't know there was a bloody great iceberg in the way! Can we think again?

    Captain: No! We decided. We must get this done. Then we can move on.

    No, a majority LibDem government won't be elected and Jo Swinson won't be PM. But the ultimate aim of all parties, no matter how unlikely, is to get a majority. The problem is the Tories put winning above any responsibility to the country or obligation to tell the truth. Say whatever will get you elected. Watch the promises evaporate the moment they get in. And no, the LibDems (please note the correct name: you're obviously still having problems here) haven't dropped the policy. They have restated a realistic position that a second best option would be to back a second referendum.

    I don't vote as if I'm putting a bet on - trying to back the winner. I vote, after thought and analysis, for the party that meets my principles most closely. My vote will not elect an MP, because of our voting system. But that's another argument.

    As I said before, I'm depressed at the state of politics in this country. A Leader of the Opposition who is ineffective. A Prime Minister who is such a liar and a liability that his party are doing everything they can to hide him away and avoid him showing his inadequacy with his bumbling idiotic answers. Do we really want a "leader" who is so incompetent and untrustworthy just so we can "get Brexit done" (which he won't anyway)?

    Yet it's enormously sad that the level of scrutiny and thought by so many means that Johnson's "charisma" and lies are enough for so many. If he gets his majority, they're in for a hell of a shock.

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
    The referendum was a binary choice, Leave or Remain in the EU. Anybody who chooses to adopt a position not to implement that decision is not a democrat. You are not a democrat, so don't come this pathetic "well, things have changed, the thick electorate didn't know what they wanted, the whole thing was rigged" attitude. You know damned well that had Remain won by even a single vote, that would have been the end of the argument.

    You seem not to realise that the widespread contempt for UK politics is largely because the democratic will of the electorate has been ignored by their elected representatives over their referendum decision. Thankfully, they now have the opportunity to give those charlatans their marching orders. Will you call for the election to be rerun after a year using the same flawed logic as you apply to the referendum?

    Regarding honesty in politics, I was amused to read that the last leader of the Labour Party, Red Ed Millband, has claimed that he voted 9 times to get Brexit sorted. This has been quickly debunked and he has egg all over his face. He must have a really low opinion of the intelligence of his constituency if he thought he could get away with that.

  2. #15352

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    He was talking specifically about supposed BBC bias, not media bias as a whole (and certainly not the print media). Try reading properly Les.
    Thank you for replying. I hadn't seen Les's response
    but as you say he clearly doesn't read very well

    Apart from an inability to read well , does anyone know what the problem is with Les? Did he ever reply when asked to quote examples of how the EU adversely affected his life? Did that get sent in one of those periods when he ran away from this thread?

  3. Default

    I see Gavin's old company have realised that Boris continues to play a blinder:

    Goldman Sachs is betting on a “Boris boom” and a surge of foreign fund flows into Britain if the election delivers a clear outcome, propelling faster economic growth through the early 2020s than in the struggling eurozone. The US investment bank expects a “Brexit Breakthrough” and a catch-up surge in undervalued UK assets as one of its top seven trade ideas for 2020, advising clients to take the plunge on sterling and beaten-down equities in the domestic sector. “We have identified more than $150bn (£116bn) of UK inflows that could be unlocked by some progress towards Brexit resolution. The upcoming election will reset the Parliamentary arithmetic and potentially clear the way,” it said.
    They must have been reading my posts on this thread. They were obviously ignoring Gavin's, like me.

  4. Default

    Financial Sage:
    Quote Originally Posted by Guided Missile View Post
    27-06-2016 - Thank you for that, Private Frazer. I think you have no idea how a weak pound will enhance the value of UK stocks when the gamblers quit the scene and the long term value of UK plc is recognised.
    Financial Has Been:
    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Brilliant, compelling analysis. I've seen the perfect job ad for you on the FT:


    Wanted: Trade negotiators, no experience necessary. Average intelligence desirable.


    Apply to: Absolutely Clueless, BoJo House.


    Pay: Tons of Zimbabwe dollars.


    It would suit you perfectly, pal


    #tiredofexperts

  5. #15355

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    Who do people think will be the more obnoxious and ovebearing; Brexiteers if we finally leave the EU, or Scousers if Liverpool win the Premier League ?

  6. #15356

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    Who do people think will be the more obnoxious and ovebearing; Brexiteers if we finally leave the EU, or Scousers if Liverpool win the Premier League ?
    Scoucers at a country mile as the media bloody adore Liverpool

  7. #15357

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  8. Default

    Chickens coming home to roost:

    German retail sales figures out this week showed a 1.9pc year-on-year fall. Its mighty auto industry, the engine of the industrial machine, is slashing jobs, with 9,500 redundancies at Audi announced in the last month and another 10,000 at Daimler, as its manufacturers desperately try to pivot away from high-pollution diesel to electric vehicles.

    The once mighty Deutsche Bank is still cutting jobs as it tries to keep itself alive. Meanwhile, the government looks more fragile than ever, with Angela Merkel’s grand coalition coming apart at the seams and with the anti-business Greens almost certain to win a share of power soon.

    For a long time, the scariest financial graph in the world has been the Deutsche Bank share price. Shares in the country’s biggest bank have fallen from €112 in 2007 to €6.40 now. In the last five years they have collapsed from €33. It keeps hitting fresh lows. A blip? Not really.

    The market thinks the bank is in trouble, and its main rivals are not looking a whole lot healthier. Heading into a downturn, you would hope your banks were in robust shape. Weak financial institutions don’t make it through a recession, but that is what Germany has. And yet, those banks are also systematically important to the global financial system. A collapse will ripple out around the world.
    The UK? Jumping into the lifeboats with Boris at the helm.

  9. #15359

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guided Missile View Post
    Chickens coming home to roost:
    "..... 9,500 redundancies at Audi announced in the last month..... "


    The UK? Jumping into the lifeboats with Boris at the helm.
    To take place over the next 6 years, via an early retirement program, as the company restructures so as to focus on hybrid and electric vehicles, which in itself is expected to create 2000 new jobs.

  10. #15360

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    "BORIS JOHNSON’s Brexit deal would lead to “high levels” of customs checks on goods passing between Northern Ireland and Britain, according to another leaked Government document."

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...on-brexit-deal


    There are lies, damned lies, and then there are promises and statements by Boris Johnson.

  11. #15361

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    So the US has effectively shut down the WTO appeals court, meaning the organisation is now toothless. For many it likely means the beginning of the end of the WTO as we know it. This is the same WTO the swivels have been cheerily telling us will guarantee free trade for us outside the EU. All lapped up, of course, by the hard of thinking on here.

    https://time.com/5746978/wto-appeals-court/

    #letsgoWTO

  12. #15362

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    So the US has effectively shut down the WTO appeals court, meaning the organisation is now toothless. For many it likely means the beginning of the end of the WTO as we know it. This is the same WTO the swivels have been cheerily telling us will guarantee free trade for us outside the EU. All lapped up, of course, by the hard of thinking on here.

    https://time.com/5746978/wto-appeals-court/

    #letsgoWTO
    Brilliant a great time for a country to abandon being in a big trade bloc and going it alone and its all thanks to the brexiters American poster boy...

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

  13. #15363

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    Found on a comment on Andrew Marr's twitter;

  14. #15364

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    Who reckons we won’t leave now?

  15. Default

    Final update:

    Originally Posted by Guided Missile

    1. Get rid of the traitors in the party - Done
    2. Replace sheep in wolves clothing with loyal Conservatives - Done
    3. Unify the party - Done
    4. Go to the EU with a freedom charter - Done
    5. Taunt a divided Marxist dominated Labour, joke of a party during the run up - Done
    6. Call an election - Done
    7. Message: The People vs Parliament - Done
    8. Arrange a deal with Nigel - Done
    9. Win a substantial majority - Obviously
    10. Watch Corbyn, Labour and the EU project sink without a trace - Cheerio, cheerio, cheerio...

    Boris played a blinder.

  16. #15366

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guided Missile View Post
    Final update:


    Boris played a blinder.
    Tbf they can't deny you didn't call it...

  17. Default

    Meanwhile, back to the point of the original post and the whole point of Brexit:
    The US President wrote on Twitter : "Congratulations to Boris Johnson on his great WIN! Britain and the United States will now be free to strike a massive new Trade Deal after BREXIT. This deal has the potential to be far bigger and more lucrative than any deal that could be made with the E.U. Celebrate Boris!"
    God Bless America (and Britain), the Land(s) of the Free

  18. #15368

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guided Missile View Post
    Meanwhile, back to the point of the original post and the whole point of Brexit:

    God Bless America (and Britain), the Land(s) of the Free
    A trade deal strictly on the USA's terms.

  19. #15369

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    Freedom charter (is that the EU’s original proposal that May and Johnson had previously rejected or the bit that presages the end of the UK) and a reciprocal FTA with the US.

    If I had business dealings with any of you in real life, it would be like taking candy from a baby
    Last edited by shurlock; 13-12-2019 at 01:05 PM.

  20. #15370

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Freedom charter (is that the EU’s original proposal that May and Johnson had previously rejected or the bit that presages the end of the UK) and a reciprocal FTA with the US.

    If I had business dealings with any of you in real life, it would be like taking candy from a baby
    What are your thoughts on this, is it a credible article or conspiracy?
    https://dangerousglobe.com/reports/b...o-people-with/

  21. #15371

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    A trade deal strictly on the USA's terms.
    Why would it be only on their terms? Wouldn't it be mutually beneficial, therefore on terms beneficial to both parties? Explain and justify your opinion.

  22. #15372

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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    A trade deal strictly on the USA's terms.
    It is an interesting one this. Would you not think that Boris can now play off the EU and the US against each other. For instance, Trump must know that he can resurrect the fortunes of Detroit simply by getting a favourable deal for US cars. Merkel must be thinking the same thing and worrying about the million cars that they sell into the EU every year.

  23. #15373

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergei Gotsmanov View Post
    It is an interesting one this. Would you not think that Boris can now play off the EU and the US against each other. For instance, Trump must know that he can resurrect the fortunes of Detroit simply by getting a favourable deal for US cars. Merkel must be thinking the same thing and worrying about the million cars that they sell into the EU every year.
    Yeah, but then people would have to drive American cars.

  24. #15374

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjii View Post
    Yeah, but then people would have to drive American cars.
    Like Ford or General Motors?

  25. #15375

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    Quote Originally Posted by benjii View Post
    Yeah, but then people would have to drive American cars.
    Would price not be a considerable influence?

  26. Default

    We will now get to see who was right. Would a credible threat to walk away get you a better deal. We got an horrendous WA because The Bercow’s, Grieve’s, Coopers, & Letwin’s of the world ensured we couldn’t walk away. With a stonking majority, Boris can credibly threaten to walk away from Trade talks if they won’t give him a decent deal.

    Let’s see.


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  27. #15377

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sergei Gotsmanov View Post
    It is an interesting one this. Would you not think that Boris can now play off the EU and the US against each other. For instance, Trump must know that he can resurrect the fortunes of Detroit simply by getting a favourable deal for US cars. Merkel must be thinking the same thing and worrying about the million cars that they sell into the EU every year.
    Jesus wept. Mercantilism for dummies meets the Apprentice. There’s thick and then there’s thick
    Last edited by shurlock; 14-12-2019 at 01:16 PM.

  28. #15378

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    We will now get to see who was right. Would a credible threat to walk away get you a better deal. We got an horrendous WA because The Bercow’s, Grieve’s, Coopers, & Letwin’s of the world ensured we couldn’t walk away. With a stonking majority, Boris can credibly threaten to walk away from Trade talks if they won’t give him a decent deal.

    Let’s see.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Like when Boris bottled it and caved into the EU’s original proposal for the withdrawal agreement. You must have missed that one little fella.

  29. #15379

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Like when Boris bottled it and caved into the EU’s original proposal for the withdrawal agreement. You must have missed that one little fella.
    You're in top insult form today, Gavyn. I think that you must really be suffering the indignity of the election result flying in the face of the outcome that you would have like and this is your backlash to sooth your furrowed brow. But as you say, you're going to come up smelling of roses no matter what happened, so you couldn't care a toss either way.

    You seem not to have realised that when Boris caved in to May's third vote on her surrender treaty, it was on the basis that he thought that the alternative was no Brexit at all. Do try and bring yourself up to speed on this, Gavyn. He is not only in a position now whereby as PM in a short time he had himself altered that original proposal despite the EU stating that it could not be done, but he now commands a stonking Parliamentary majority giving him a far stronger hand in the negotiations and the ability to walk away from them if he doesn't consider the deal favourable enough to our interests. I don't know what sort of consultant you are, but somebody as super-intelligent as you surely realises that rule one of business negotiation is that you must be prepared to walk away from a bad deal and that gives you an edge in those negotiations.

  30. #15380

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    You're in top insult form today, Gavyn. I think that you must really be suffering the indignity of the election result flying in the face of the outcome that you would have like and this is your backlash to sooth your furrowed brow. But as you say, you're going to come up smelling of roses no matter what happened, so you couldn't care a toss either way.

    You seem not to have realised that when Boris caved in to May's third vote on her surrender treaty, it was on the basis that he thought that the alternative was no Brexit at all. Do try and bring yourself up to speed on this, Gavyn. He is not only in a position now whereby as PM in a short time he had himself altered that original proposal despite the EU stating that it could not be done, but he now commands a stonking Parliamentary majority giving him a far stronger hand in the negotiations and the ability to walk away from them if he doesn't consider the deal favourable enough to our interests. I don't know what sort of consultant you are, but somebody as super-intelligent as you surely realises that rule one of business negotiation is that you must be prepared to walk away from a bad deal and that gives you an edge in those negotiations.
    You’ve completely missed my point Les. Where did I mention May’s third vote? I’m talking about Johnson’s oven-ready deal.
    Last edited by shurlock; 14-12-2019 at 01:48 PM.

  31. #15381

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    You’ve completely missed my point Les. Where did I mention May’s third vote? I’m talking about Johnson’s oven-ready deal.
    Well, like LD, I must have missed it. I'm sure that you will be happy to bring us both up to speed. Or perhaps you mistakenly think that Boris's oven ready deal was exactly the same as the original May surrender treaty?

  32. #15382

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Well, like LD, I must have missed it. I'm sure that you will be happy to bring us both up to speed. Or perhaps you mistakenly think that Boris's oven ready deal was exactly the same as the original May surrender treaty?
    Where did I say it was Les. I said it’s effectively the same deal that the EU had agreed to offer May in December 2017 before she and her party rejected it and proposed the UK-wide backstop instead. The EU and Varadkar couldn’t believe their lucky stars when Johnson folded quicker than a cheap suit and reverted to their preferred solution. They are delighted that there’s now a healthy majority to pass it. No wonder your Nigel is nervous.
    Last edited by shurlock; 14-12-2019 at 02:34 PM.

  33. #15383

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Where did I say it was Les. I said it’s effectively the same deal that the EU had agreed to offer May in December 2017 before she and her party rejected it and proposed the UK-wide backstop instead. The EU and Varadkar couldn’t believe their lucky stars when Johnson folded quicker than a cheap suit and reverted to their preferred solution. They are delighted that there’s now a healthy majority to pass it. No wonder your Nigel is nervous.
    You seem to have air-brushed over the word "original". You didn't say that it was effectively the same deal, you said it was the original deal. You have had your pants pulled down and are trying to bluster your way out of it as usual

  34. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    You seem to have air-brushed over the word "original". You didn't say that it was effectively the same deal, you said it was the original deal. You have had your pants pulled down and are trying to bluster your way out of it as usual
    You seem to have air brushed over the word "proposal".

  35. #15385

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    Interesting that despite it being a Tory landslide in terms of seats, more people voted for parties favouring a people’s vote than Brexit. FPTP system at its finest.

  36. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    Interesting that despite it being a Tory landslide in terms of seats, more people voted for parties favouring a people’s vote than Brexit. FPTP system at its finest.
    Didn't said parties have an opportunity in the previous parliament session to vote for a people's vote...?

  37. #15387

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    Quote Originally Posted by trousers View Post
    Didn't said parties have an opportunity in the previous parliament session to vote for a people's vote...?
    Probably, though I’m not sure they have since it became Labour policy.

    I just thought it was interesting that if it was a “Brexit election” most people want a people’s vote yet we have a government free to press ahead with a no deal Brexit.

  38. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by trousers View Post
    Didn't said parties have an opportunity in the previous parliament session to vote for a people's vote...?
    It wasn't Labour policy until the election.

  39. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    Probably, though I’m not sure they have since it became Labour policy.

    I just thought it was interesting that if it was a “Brexit election” most people want a people’s vote yet we have a government free to press ahead with a no deal Brexit.
    Fair observation, but the election only got the green light because parties that advocated another referendum voted it through parliament rather than clubbing together to legislate for a people's vote. The words hoist, own and petard spring to mind.
    Last edited by trousers; 14-12-2019 at 07:22 PM.

  40. #15390

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    Interesting that despite it being a Tory landslide in terms of seats, more people voted for parties favouring a people’s vote than Brexit. FPTP system at its finest.
    Over 3 million fewer people voted Tory in the GE than voted for Brexit in the referendum.

  41. #15391

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Why would it be only on their terms? Wouldn't it be mutually beneficial, therefore on terms beneficial to both parties? Explain and justify your opinion.
    Trump has always insisted that he wants to reverse the current trade deficit that the US has with the UK.

  42. #15392

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Jesus wept. Mercantilism for dummies meets the Apprentice. There’s thick and then there’s thick
    I see the charm that keeps you on the losing side is still intact and maybe I did have to google mercantilism but can you explain why a US trade deal would not potentially make US cars cheaper and EU cars more expensive?

  43. Default Brexit - Enter at Your Own Risk

    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Well, like LD, I must have missed it. I'm sure that you will be happy to bring us both up to speed. Or perhaps you mistakenly think that Boris's oven ready deal was exactly the same as the original May surrender treaty?
    If people bothered to read what I originally wrote, I clearly stated the WA was awful. It was awful because parliament blocked no deal for Boris, and May didn’t ever want that outcome. Boris’ WA is awful. What the “it’s the same deal” merchants don’t seem to grasp is that without the backstop we can **** off after the transition. Admittedly, we leave the Mick’s behind, but Boris put that to the people and they wholeheartedly backed him.

    The point is that now he has a massive parliamentary majority he can threaten to withdraw from trade negotiations and have no deal after any transition, something May’s deal didn’t allow.

    Now, our side of the argument claimed that a credible threat to walk away gets you a better outcome. The remoaners claimed otherwise. As we now have a credible walk away option (Parliament won’t block it), let’s see who was right. Personally, I think Boris will get a better trade deal now, than he would of with a single figure majority. But we will now get to see.




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    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    Over 3 million fewer people voted Tory in the GE than voted for Brexit in the referendum.
    Jesus wept! Are you really comparing a binary referendum with a GE with numerous options to vote for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    Jesus wept! Are you really comparing a binary referendum with a GE with numerous options to vote for?
    No, just pointing out a statistical curiosity. And please don't blaspheme.

  46. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by badgerx16 View Post
    Over 3 million fewer people voted Tory in the GE than voted for Brexit in the referendum.
    Theres nearly two million people in Northern Ireland and Gibralter.

    One doesn't have conservative candidates, the other doesn't vote in general elections.

  47. #15397

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan View Post
    Theres nearly two million people in Northern Ireland and Gibralter.

    One doesn't have conservative candidates, the other doesn't vote in general elections.
    340,000 leave votes in NI, population of Gib approx 35,000. Still leaves over two and a half million.

  48. Default

    Morning, campers. The good news keeps coming. I hope Gavyn Davies is following my insightful analysis of the macroeconomic prospects for the UK, post Brexit. His former employer, Goldman apparently agrees with me, while his funds continue to underwhelm:



    General election result could see pound rally to pre-referendum level of $1.45
    Sterling is positioned to surge in the coming months to levels not seen since before the Brexit referendum, according to City forecasters, as the British economy sheds the burden of uncertainty.
    Wall Street titan Goldman Sachs predicted Britain will benefit from an array of stimuli under Mr Johnson. Its economist Adrian Paul said that as well as renewed business investment, “a pick-up in global growth” and increased public spending should means GDP growth in the second half of 2020 to hit an annualised 2.4pc.


  49. #15399

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Duckhunter View Post
    If people bothered to read what I originally wrote, I clearly stated the WA was awful. It was awful because parliament blocked no deal for Boris, and May didn’t ever want that outcome. Boris’ WA is awful. What the “it’s the same deal” merchants don’t seem to grasp is that without the backstop we can **** off after the transition. Admittedly, we leave the Mick’s behind, but Boris put that to the people and they wholeheartedly backed him.

    The point is that now he has a massive parliamentary majority he can threaten to withdraw from trade negotiations and have no deal after any transition, something May’s deal didn’t allow.

    Now, our side of the argument claimed that a credible threat to walk away gets you a better outcome. The remoaners claimed otherwise. As we now have a credible walk away option (Parliament won’t block it), let’s see who was right. Personally, I think Boris will get a better trade deal now, than he would of with a single figure majority. But we will now get to see.
    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Exactly. It's unusual for Gavyn not to comprehend something like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Exactly. It's unusual for Gavyn not to comprehend something like this.
    What you miss is that Johnson didn’t even put up a fight pal. He had plenty of leeway to fight for his preferred option -alternative arrangements and a technological solution on the island of Ireland. Yet a ninety minute meeting with Varadkar in the Wirral was enough for him to fold quicker than a cheap suit. It was the most stunning and radical of compromises -and even now doesn’t provide the type of closure Johnson claims. It doesn’t surprise me that you and LD don’t know what it means to have a backbone

    https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/...ide-irish-sea/
    Last edited by shurlock; 16-12-2019 at 09:46 AM.

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