View Poll Results: SWF Exit Poll

Voters
40. You may not vote on this poll
  • Conservatives

    21 52.50%
  • Labour

    12 30.00%
  • Liberals

    6 15.00%
  • Brexit

    1 2.50%
  • SNP/Plaid

    0 0%
  • Green

    0 0%
  • Independant

    0 0%
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Thread: General Election 2019 - Post Match Reaction

  1. #2301

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Because they wouldn't reflect the vote. Put everyone in their strongholds with the biggest margin, okay fine. Then what? Using this election as an example, tell me where you'd put the 64 extra Liberal MPs who nobody wanted?

    You could only put them in the marginals. Imagine Meon Valley being told "sorry, we've used up the quota of Tories, we need to 'allocate' you a Labour MP." You would have a very polite, middle class riot. Every election would end up with liberal MPs pigeonholed into constituencies where the vote might be Con - 23,000, Lab - 21,000, Lib - 6,000. It'd be an absolute farce.
    Could do a combination of constituency seats and regional top-ups as Fry suggested. It’s not rocket science, it just makes sense to have every vote count. It would better represent the electorate and give new parties an opportunity to grow. Under PR Momentum and the ERG would just be their own small fringe parties instead of controlling our only voting options.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    It's a stupid argument to make. If we had proportional representation the votes would have been completely different
    Yep, I acknowledge that. Of course plenty of people would have voted differently (ie not tactically) if they knew that their vote would actually count for something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Do you believe having a permanent coalition government would be a good way to run the country?
    It seems to work pretty well for plenty of other countries. It ensures that all views are represented, rather than handing total power to the party with the biggest vote share. Makes perfect sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    He's also taking the figures from an election where PR is NOT an option and rather simplisticly applying the results. He's seemingly forgotten about the 'tactical' votes during this election and the effect they have had on the results. Results that are not going to be achieved if PR is used as the voting system.
    Not forgotten about that at all. The graphic simply shows what the seat distribution would look like on the basis of the votes cast yesterday. Like I already said to hypo, of course I recognise that those vote shares would have been different if everybody knew they were voting in a PR system.

    Quote Originally Posted by norwaysaint View Post
    I can't see any circumstances where the major parties would allow a change to PR though, so it's fairly pointless to consider.
    Of course. All the time it benefits the two main parties to keep FPTP, they will resist any and all attempts to reform it. Allowing the parties who benefit from it to decide whether or not to scrap it is ridiculous. Just another reason why our entire governmental system is outdated and unfit for purpose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadoldgit View Post
    I admire your optimism Nick but I donít share it. Johnson has removed many moderates and his front bench is very poor, as is he. His strength is as a front man and it is a worry as to who will be pulling the strings.

    As for Corbyn, whatever you think of him, Labourís plans were far better for most of us than Tories thin manifesto. Working in coalition with the LibDems they could have made a decent fist of repairing the damage done to the country in the last decade.

    I feel most disappointed for my 3 children though. They are all in their early 20ís and were desperate to see a change of Government and more hope for the future. All we can hope for now is that both Labour and the LibDems sort themselves out and form a decent opposition so that we have something to look forward to in 5 years time.
    Better for "most of us." Define most of us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    Better for "most of us." Define most of us.
    Most would imply a majority, so not the vote of any of the parties in the GE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aintforever View Post
    Could do a combination of constituency seats and regional top-ups as Fry suggested. It’s not rocket science, it just makes sense to have every vote count. It would better represent the electorate and give new parties an opportunity to grow. Under PR Momentum and the ERG would just be their own small fringe parties instead of controlling our only voting options.
    Okay, so based on the assumption that we wouldn't be taking away any MPs from the constituencies where they've been elected but you want to keep the ratio proportional to the percentage of the electorate...

    In this election:

    Tories - 364 - Elected MPs using FPTP
    Labour - 269 - 209 elected and 60 'top ups' (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:209 gives Labour 269 total)
    Liberal - 96 - 11 and 85 top ups (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:75 gives Liberals 96 total)

    Then you run into a problem...

    SNP - 33 Seats (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:25 gives SNP 33 total) BUT with FPTP they have 48 seats

    So that leaves a choice of either shafting the SNP (wouldn't upset me personally but that would cause huge problems) or do the maths again to keep the ratio the same. So to keep seats proportional to the vote:

    Tories - 543 - (48 multiplied by PR ratio of 25:283)
    Labour - 401
    etc...

    My point is to have top ups without removing any elected seats, you would need probably around 1,200 total MPs in total to make sure everyone gets a fair representation of their vote.

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Okay, so based on the assumption that we wouldn't be taking away any MPs from the constituencies where they've been elected but you want to keep the ratio proportional to the percentage of the electorate...

    In this election:

    Tories - 364 - Elected MPs using FPTP
    Labour - 269 - 209 elected and 60 'top ups' (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:209 gives Labour 269 total)
    Liberal - 96 - 11 and 85 top ups (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:75 gives Liberals 96 total)

    Then you run into a problem...

    SNP - 33 Seats (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:25 gives SNP 33 total) BUT with FPTP they have 48 seats

    So that leaves a choice of either shafting the SNP (wouldn't upset me personally but that would cause huge problems) or do the maths again to keep the ratio the same. So to keep seats proportional to the vote:

    Tories - 543 - (48 multiplied by PR ratio of 25:283)
    Labour - 401
    etc...

    My point is to have top ups without removing any elected seats, you would need probably around 1,200 total MPs in total to make sure everyone gets a fair representation of their vote.
    Jesus wept.

    There are proportional systems like the one I've described in play all the world. If it ever happened, maybe, just maybe we could work it out within the current 650 MPs.

    Being that a couple of years ago the Tories proposed boundary changes to reduce total seats to 600 suggests that the number of seats can be revised and amended over time.

    A new proportional system would be pretty straightforward to map out, not sure why you are making such a meal of it.

    You're either obtuse or plain stupid. Let me know which.

  7. #2307

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Okay, so based on the assumption that we wouldn't be taking away any MPs from the constituencies where they've been elected but you want to keep the ratio proportional to the percentage of the electorate...

    In this election:

    Tories - 364 - Elected MPs using FPTP
    Labour - 269 - 209 elected and 60 'top ups' (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:209 gives Labour 269 total)
    Liberal - 96 - 11 and 85 top ups (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:75 gives Liberals 96 total)

    Then you run into a problem...

    SNP - 33 Seats (364 multiplied by the PR ratio of 283:25 gives SNP 33 total) BUT with FPTP they have 48 seats

    So that leaves a choice of either shafting the SNP (wouldn't upset me personally but that would cause huge problems) or do the maths again to keep the ratio the same. So to keep seats proportional to the vote:

    Tories - 543 - (48 multiplied by PR ratio of 25:283)
    Labour - 401
    etc...

    My point is to have top ups without removing any elected seats, you would need probably around 1,200 total MPs in total to make sure everyone gets a fair representation of their vote.
    You just redraw the boundaries to have fewer constituencies.

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    The MPs who are Corbyn followers are on another planet..

    Basically, if there was no Brexit they would have won. No one else as Labour leader could have done any better.
    Not as bad as Labour between 1997-2010 where they lost 5m voters.
    It was the media's fault.
    The manifesto was excellent but Brexit killed it.


    but, they will have a period of self-reflection....

  9. #2309

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    The MPs who are Corbyn followers are on another planet..

    Basically, if there was no Brexit they would have won. No one else as Labour leader could have done any better.
    Not as bad as Labour between 1997-2010 where they lost 5m voters.
    It was the media's fault.
    The manifesto was excellent but Brexit killed it.


    but, they will have a period of self-reflection....
    It's crazy. They've had people telling them for years what the problems are and they've ignored them and they continue to ignore them after an absolute trouncing. They deserve everything that get and will continue to get at this rate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    It's crazy. They've had people telling them for years what the problems are and they've ignored them and they continue to ignore them after an absolute trouncing. They deserve everything that get and will continue to get at this rate.
    their merry band of followers (jonnyboy for example) are the sort to believe that if you can't see/hear the magic when Corbyn was on the TV/Radio, then you are right-wing scum and should f-off and vote Tory.

    many are still in denial!
    Last edited by Batman; 13-12-2019 at 02:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    Oh dear. Maths isn't your strong point, is it.

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
    Joined up thinking isn't your strong point, is it?

  12. #2312

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    Jesus wept.

    There are proportional systems like the one I've described in play all the world. If it ever happened, maybe, just maybe we could work it out within the current 650 MPs.

    Being that a couple of years ago the Tories proposed boundary changes to reduce total seats to 600 suggests that the number of seats can be revised and amended over time.

    A new proportional system would be pretty straightforward to map out, not sure why you are making such a meal of it.

    You're either obtuse or plain stupid. Let me know which.
    Well obviously both, so if it's that straight forward then please do explain how it would work for us.

    To make PR work for the percentages in this election, without removing any elected MPs you would need 1231 seats (48 SNP seats divided by 3.9% of the total vote). So you would (roughly) half the number of constituencies in future to keep it down 'around 600'?

  13. #2313

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    Quote Originally Posted by hypochondriac View Post
    Better for "most of us." Define most of us.
    Most of us is Soggy's alter egos.

  14. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Well obviously both, so if it's that straight forward then please do explain how it would work for us.

    To make PR work for the percentages in this election, without removing any elected MPs you would need 1231 seats (48 SNP seats divided by 3.9% of the total vote). So you would (roughly) half the number of constituencies in future to keep it down 'around 600'?
    I didn't realise we were convening a Royal Commission on Electoral Reform today on this football forum.

    If you can't actually imagine a proportional system for the UK that doesn't involve slightly less than twelve hundred sodding MPs then I've got nothing for you mate.

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    The losers in the Scottish referendum want a re-run !
    The losers in the EU referendum want a re-run !
    The losers in the 2109 election want to change the electoral system !
    I think I can see a pattern emerging here.....

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    Tbf I've always said I'd prefer some form of proportional representation but I doubt some on here would be so vociferous about it had Labour just won a majority...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes Tender View Post
    Most of us is Soggy's alter egos.
    I don’t know what is more depressing. 5 more years of Tory policies or 5 more years of Wes’s inane posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eurosaint View Post
    The losers in the Scottish referendum want a re-run !
    The losers in the EU referendum want a re-run !
    The losers in the 2109 election want to change the electoral system !
    I think I can see a pattern emerging here.....
    We have been discussing electoral reform on here for years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadoldgit View Post
    I don’t know what is more depressing. 5 more years of Tory policies or 5 more years of Wes’s inane posts.
    just seen this on twitter (about the GE result)...is it you?

    Sorry for the arguments I've had with people on here. I'm in a very bad way today and I've been sent home from work early, I can feel my mental health falling away from me and it's a lot to deal with. But I'm very sorry for the arguments I had with people on here, shouldn't have been sweary and aggressive and all that. Sorry

  20. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    just seen this on twitter (about the GE result)...is it you?
    Tbf SOG is never sweary to his credit

  21. #2321

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    Quote Originally Posted by CB Fry View Post
    I didn't realise we were convening a Royal Commission on Electoral Reform today on this football forum.

    If you can't actually imagine a proportional system for the UK that doesn't involve slightly less than twelve hundred sodding MPs then I've got nothing for you mate.
    Okay, so we are halving the number of constituencies then. That's all you had to say, Jesus wept (as you'd put it).

  22. #2322

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    just seen this on twitter (about the GE result)...is it you?
    Nope. Sorry to disappoint you.

  23. #2323

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadoldgit View Post
    I admire your optimism Nick but I donít share it. Johnson has removed many moderates and his front bench is very poor, as is he. His strength is as a front man and it is a worry as to who will be pulling the strings.

    As for Corbyn, whatever you think of him, Labourís plans were far better for most of us than Tories thin manifesto. Working in coalition with the LibDems they could have made a decent fist of repairing the damage done to the country in the last decade.

    I feel most disappointed for my 3 children though. They are all in their early 20ís and were desperate to see a change of Government and more hope for the future. All we can hope for now is that both Labour and the LibDems sort themselves out and form a decent opposition so that we have something to look forward to in 5 years time.
    If you truly believe that Corbyns/Labours spending plans would have been good for your kids future you are wrong IMHO. Your children are no doubt brainwashed by your opinions but they should be more optimistic and they will have a bright future if they really want to work to get there. Corbyns plans were a nonsense as they destroy more than they grow.
    I didnt like Boris but if he delivers like he promised today,it is a moderate agenda and as he has such a good majority he can take less heed of the ERG

  24. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Okay, so we are halving the number of constituencies then. That's all you had to say, Jesus wept (as you'd put it).
    We get it. You don't understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldNick View Post
    I didnt like Boris but if he delivers like he promised today
    That's the serial liar, cheat, fridge-hiding, phone-stealing human soundbite who can't even remember what promises he made a week ago Boris, yeah?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    That's the serial liar, cheat, fridge-hiding, phone-stealing human soundbite who can't even remember what promises he made a week ago Boris, yeah?

    just think, he absolutely hammered all the others.
    just think about how bad they are...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    That's the serial liar, cheat, fridge-hiding, phone-stealing human soundbite who can't even remember what promises he made a week ago Boris, yeah?

    True. Speeches made outside No 10 immediately after an election nearly always talk about uniting the country, but are soon forgotten.

    I remember Thatcher talking piously about harmony, light and hope. It worked if you were a banker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    just think, he absolutely hammered all the others.
    just think about how bad they are...
    Oh I get it. The old football cliche of "you can only beat what's in front of you" clearly applies here.

    I'm just aghast that somebody could even contemplate the thought that Johnson might actually deliver on his promises, given his track record of being such an awful excuse for a human being.

  29. #2329

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    just think, he absolutely hammered all the others.
    just think about how bad they are...
    You keep raising the same point but it really doesn’t make Johnson any better. Do you think he would have done so well without his “Get Brexit done” mantra?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadoldgit View Post
    You keep raising the same point but it really doesn’t make Johnson any better. Do you think he would have done so well without his “Get Brexit done” mantra?
    doesnt matter does it. he won big

  31. #2331

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadoldgit View Post
    You keep raising the same point but it really doesn’t make Johnson any better. Do you think he would have done so well without his “Get Brexit done” mantra?
    He would have done well dribbling into a bib if his competition was Corbyn....

  32. #2332

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheaf Saint View Post
    Oh I get it. The old football cliche of "you can only beat what's in front of you" clearly applies here.

    I'm just aghast that somebody could even contemplate the thought that Johnson might actually deliver on his promises, given his track record of being such an awful excuse for a human being.
    its because of your political blindness, you can't see how incredibly toxic the Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbot brand is.
    So much so, the working class areas around the country have deserted them for this awful person you mention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weston Super Saint View Post
    He would have done well dribbling into a bib if his competition was Corbyn....
    My Jewish mates agree with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadoldgit View Post
    We have been discussing electoral reform on here for years.
    Im not surprised, you lost the last four elections

  35. Default

    Almost as glorious as last night, is the lefties and pinkos on here.

    The "moderates" have been routed, and the Corbyn lefties have been humiliated. The greatest things about it is that Swinson and her band of "moderates" enabled it. They had Boris in a cage, they could of kept him there, inflicting defeat after defeat, taking control of the commons and ensuring he missed deadline after deadline. Instead their ego's got the better of them. The top political operators of my lifetime, Campbell, Blair and Mandleson knew what would happen, but these political pygmies didn't.

    #swampisdrained

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    Quote Originally Posted by eurosaint View Post
    Im not surprised, you lost the last four elections
    Itís got nothing to do with winning or losing elections. It is to do with having a system that doesnít disenfranchise the majority of the electorate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadoldgit View Post
    I donít know what is more depressing. 5 more years of Tory policies or 5 more years of Wesís inane posts.
    If you're going to talk about "most of us" when expressing opinions, then certainly you are going to hear a lot more from me. Of course there is always the ignore button. Regarding ignoring the 5 more years of Conservative government, I'm sorry I can't suggest how you ignore that, short of emigrating. Where do you think would suit you, Soggy?

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    Didn't we have a referendum on changing the voting system under the Conservative/LibDem coalition?

  39. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wade Garrett View Post
    Didn't we have a referendum on changing the voting system under the Conservative/LibDem coalition?
    Yes. They picked the worst alternative known to humanity, Cameron did an excellent job of demolishing it through misrepresentation, and no one gave a sh it and it lost on a very low turnout. Quite rightly to be honest as it wasn't significantly more proportional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wade Garrett View Post
    Didn't we have a referendum on changing the voting system under the Conservative/LibDem coalition?
    Yes. The LibDems made it a condition of coalition but were far too weak over it, as the referendum was called but Tories and Labour campaigned for no change.

    Should have offered Cameron the requirement of actually passing a change to PR before supporting a coalition. Of course, the Tories wouldn't have agreed. FPTP is the Holy Grail that shuts out smaller parties.

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    all the talk of a coalition..we had one in 2010 and people still moan about it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    all the talk of a coalition..we had one in 2010 and people still moan about it
    Because it was a ridiculously one-sided coalition, totally unlike the kind we would get under a PR voting system, that was responsible for instigating the programme of austerity that has caused so much damage to the moral fabric of this country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    all the talk of a coalition..we had one in 2010 and people still moan about it
    Do they Jamie? Some people might disagree with the austerity policies the coalition pursued but they would have doubtless disagreed more if there hadn’t been the coalition since the policies under a straight Tory government would have been harsher. At any rate the main charge against coalition government is that it leads to weak, unstable and divided government and I don’t remember anyone criticising the 2010 coalition on those terms. Quite the opposite given the shÓtshow of the last few years.

    Of all people on here pal, you should probably think before you open your mouth.
    Last edited by shurlock; 13-12-2019 at 06:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadoldgit View Post
    It’s got nothing to do with winning or losing elections. It is to do with having a system that doesn’t disenfranchise the majority of the electorate.
    Must just be a coincidence then that the losers bring it up after each election !

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    Quote Originally Posted by eurosaint View Post
    Must just be a coincidence then that the losers bring it up after each election !
    You mean the disenfranchised bring it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eurosaint View Post
    Must just be a coincidence then that the losers bring it up after each election !
    Not really a coincidence, the smaller parties lose out at every election wether The Tories or Labour win - that’s the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eurosaint View Post
    Must just be a coincidence then that the losers bring it up after each election !
    Ok we get it. You are ok with millions of people’s votes meaning nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shurlock View Post
    Do they Jamie? Some people might disagree with the austerity policies the coalition pursued but they would have doubtless disagreed more if there hadnít been the coalition since the policies under a straight Tory government would have been harsher. At any rate the main charge against coalition government is that it leads to weak, unstable and divided government and I donít remember anyone criticising the 2010 coalition on those terms. Quite the opposite given the shÓtshow of the last few years.

    Of all people on here pal, you should probably think before you open your mouth.
    I agree with this. If you've read Cameron's book, the story of the coalition is interesting, and references back to it now are very selective.

    Tory policies were ameliorated and the regime had its successes, but the focus was on the LibDems allowing tuition fees increases. As a minority partner, they were very limited.

    Where they were useful was in giving Cameron a reason not to have a Brexit referendum. It was when he got a majority he couldn't dodge it, although he wanted to.

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  49. #2349

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman View Post
    their merry band of followers (jonnyboy for example) are the sort to believe that if you can't see/hear the magic when Corbyn was on the TV/Radio, then you are right-wing scum and should f-off and vote Tory.

    many are still in denial!
    Odd comment, for me it was past voting record and political activity, the manifesto of hope and a better future for our young people.

    As before, the under 50s with above average education didn't vote Tory.

  50. #2350

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shroppie View Post
    You mean the disenfranchised bring it up.

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    No losers was right the first time.

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