Response from club re: Installment Plans

[Deano6]

Firstly, I think they have mistaken me for someone else, because they did not actually respond to me in the first place, I took the excuse of costs being high from other peoples replies.

 

So there you go, they stick by the reasoning that there is high administrative costs to the club, even though I have proven to them it is not ( if I was not stating facts I have no doubt they would have issued me with a letter from their solicitors )

 

So think what you will of that.

 

Me? I will cherry pick a few home games and do mostly away next season.

 

For now, there's more important things than SFC. Come on England!!!

 

 

Thanks for the update Stu. One more thing I don't give a toss about today.

[Chez]

The club have shown utter contempt for fans on this issue. Fans charter. What a complete load of S H I T. I get the feeling they think all football fans are complete idiots and treat them as such.

 

Lets just see how many turn up for a midweek game in winter. Top of the league or not people will still give it a miss. ST holders have been undervalued by Cortese.

[View From The Top]

The club have shown utter contempt for fans on this issue. Fans charter. What a complete load of S H I T. I get the feeling they think all football fans are complete idiots and treat them as such.

 

Lets just see how many turn up for a midweek game in winter. Top of the league or not people will still give it a miss. ST holders have been undervalued by Cortese.

 

Agree 100%.

[aintforever]

ST holders have been undervalued by Cortese.

 

I think that is the main problem here, does Cortese actually know anything about football or the English culture of football?

 

Once people get out of the habit of going to every game it is pretty easy to give Degenham and Redbridge on a cold wet November Wednesday a miss.

[Amesbury Saint]

The problem is Stu that you are wrong to say the scheme has NO cost to the club. They still need to administer it in SOME way, even if they are not the company responsible for operating such a scheme. Whether that be sending out forms to potential customers, or simply getting a list of interested customers and forwarding it to a credit company for them to then take control of. In this way there has to be some level of indrect cost (staffing etc) to the club in running such a scheme and you continue to not recognise this.

 

Now of course you can argue that you feel this isn't a "high" cost, i.e. argue against their description of the cost, but you'd be fighting a losing battle here becuase at the end of the day it remains their decision as to whether or not they wish to meet this cost. They evidently don't, hence no scheme. In their eyes, any unnecessary cost could be deemed to be 'high'.

 

So yeh you can say it reduces the good feeling you have about the club becuase you hoped they'd care more than that etc, that's fair enough but it remains subjective. In other words, it comes down to what you expect from the club. You can't say they're liars etc though as it simply isn't true.

 

I personally hope you stop bleating on about anyway as it really is tedious. I don't think you're gaining any further followers to your cause from those that agrred with you on the very first day. In fact, I'd say you're probably losing people's interests by failing to move on. Several times now you've said "I'm not saying more on the subject" or words to that effect, only to continue to debate the matter again at a later stage. On that logic, I hope you don't bother to reply to this post. ;-)

 

I dont t usually agree with Stu but the club's communication, approach and logic has been poor.

Expected better from SFC

[Whitey Grandad]

I think that is the main problem here, does Cortese actually know anything about football or the English culture of football?

 

Once people get out of the habit of going to every game it is pretty easy to give Degenham and Redbridge on a cold wet November Wednesday a miss.

 

Someone once told me: "once you give up your season ticket, you never get another one".

[SaintRichmond]

How would you describe it then?

 

Club says "we're not running an installment plan because of the high administrative cost to the club"

Fan does research, discovers there are options which cost the club precisely zero (where the cost is passed on to the customer)

Club says "we're not running an installment plan because of the high administrative cost to the club", in direct opposition to the facts presented to them.

 

 

Not if the cost is passed on to the customer.

 

It's an absolute ****ing sham and I'm absolutely appalled that so many people cannot (or refuse to) see what's happening here.

 

Methinks David Luker has now been "gagged" by Herr Cortese, and will only be his "mouthpiece from now on

[Block 5]

Well done to Stu for being so tenacious on this issue.

There is something dodgy about this whole debacle, that no amount of new shirts will put right.

 

I have renewed my ST but the unannounced removal of the installment plan has meant that I have had to make sacrifices elsewhere.

 

Anyone who thinks that this whole issue is of little import is either deluded or guilty of snobbery.

[Daren W]

To me it is simple. The club offered a FREE instalment plan. The costs of Administering the same did not justify continuing. They withdrew this season.

 

They could have set up a third party instalment plan but the customer would have to pay a rate of interest. That rate was under the control of the finance company NOT the club.

 

If someone wants to take out a loan to cover the immediate cost of the season ticket they can do that independently.

 

The only real issue is the late notification to supporters who relied on the club scheme but they were getting something for nothing, ie free loan over the years.

 

So has anyone asked if there is an "administration cost" in half season tickets?

 

No?

 

So why's that been withdrawn then?

 

The problem here is people are shooting the messenger by sniping away at Stu, the harsh truth is he's right. The club has lied. He's found a way of issuing installment plans at no cost to the club whatsoever. You can file it with the fans charter which was another blatant lie and ripped up within six months of being written...

[StuRomseySaint]

Well done to Stu for being so tenacious on this issue.

There is something dodgy about this whole debacle, that no amount of new shirts will put right.

 

I have renewed my ST but the unannounced removal of the installment plan has meant that I have had to make sacrifices elsewhere.

 

Anyone who thinks that this whole issue is of little import is either deluded or guilty of snobbery.

 

Let's forget about the Installment plan just for a minute.

 

Look at the fact that they removed a core benefit, one of which, as you stated, means that people have either had to make other sacrifices or cannot now purchase a season ticket.

 

But the thing which gives everyone a good idea as to how the club is being run, and how Cortese views the fans, is that at no point have they actually answered the questions which I gave them, and most importantly... at no point in the last 3 weeks have they justifies their position, nor have they simply said "we are sorry for any inconvenience caused" , seriously, how many businesses do you know that remove a core benefit from their customer base and don't even have the decency to say sorry?

 

It's not all about the Installment plan, what this has shown up is the club ( Cortese ) really does not give a f*ck about the fans, this has proven it beyond doubt. The fans charter and supporters engagement policy has been torn up... which funnily enough coincided with Andy Oldknow leaving, contact with the press has stopped, communication with the fans has stopped... the club is shutting it's doors and think it can get away with treating fans with complete contempt and they will still come paying.

 

Cortese is relying on fans being blinded by the fact they brought us out of administration and Liebherr being a billionaire and thinks he can get away with pretty much anything and Saints fans will take it on the chin. He thinks he can treat fans like c*nts as people are too scared to say anything because they think he will walk away.

 

Remember, this is Liebherrs investment, not Cortese's, I strongly believe Liebherr will be here long after Cortese is gone.

Edited 19 June, 2010 by StuRomseySaint

[stu0x]

How would you describe it then?

 

Club says "we're not running an installment plan because of the high administrative cost to the club"

Fan does research, discovers there are options which cost the club precisely zero (where the cost is passed on to the customer)

Club says "we're not running an installment plan because of the high administrative cost to the club", in direct opposition to the facts presented to them.

 

 

Not if the cost is passed on to the customer.

 

It's an absolute ****ing sham and I'm absolutely appalled that so many people cannot (or refuse to) see what's happening here.

With all due respect to the 'black or white brigade', perhaps both are true?

 

If the club wishes to run an installment plan, there will be costs involved. No getting around that.

 

There are essentially two options:

1) run your own, which is a ballache and probably what the 'high administrative costs' refer to. The club would have to jump through a whole load of hoops getting itself accredited as a financier, etc. The club then absorbs the costs.

2) Farm one out to a third party finance company, who will either a) bill the club a rate per ticket (so again, incurring costs on the part of the club) or b) whack an interest rate onto the repayment terms (which means the fan, not the club, pay the cost).

 

Now, obviously option b is what you're all banging on about, but before we all get quite so foamy mouthed, it might be worth thinking about reasons why option b would NOT be attractive to the club.

 

It involves a third party (a finance company no less) in the fundamental running of a major income stream of the club. It gives that third party essentially carte-blanche in respect of its terms. It places the club in a situation where it is reliant on said finance company to 'play by the rules', not take the **** in relation to interest rates, terms, cancelling tickets of people who miss one payment, selling the whole scheme on to a fourth party, etc etc, and not least remain solvent themselves.

 

Now, would anyone care to look at recent horror stories involving football clubs and financial third parties and volunteer a reason as to why that might not look like such a rosy option for our current owner (who, lest we forget, bailed the club out of the atrociously financially mismanaged scheisse it was in less than 12 months ago)?? If I was in his boat, there is absolutely no way I would hand over such a fundamental and emotive issue such as administration of season tickets to someone else.

 

I mean, can you imagine what would happen if they allowed a third party to manage the scheme, who then proceeded a few months down the line to load on stealth interest rates, start calling in the debt, sell the obligation to a further organisation (like one of those lovely hedge fund things), cancelling on obscure terms, or even going out of business? Net result is a lot of very ****ed off Saints fans who have paid out hundreds and whose tickets are no longer worth more than arse-paper. And I wonder who would be getting the blame in these circumstances? This forum would be FULL of threads complaining about how ML/NC/SFC have 'robbed' them. Not 'Ocean Finance are a bunch of dodgy ****ers, whoever knew they'd end up charging me 28% APR? We should never have gotten into bed with them in the first place', I would wager.

 

So essentially, when you realise how utterly unattractive that option is to the club, you're left with the sole option of the club footing the bill. Which, to be frank, is simply not worth it for them. As has previously been said, if you really want to pay in installments, walk into a high street bank (or get onto one of those newfangled innerweb things) and get yourself a personal loan. Better terms, better interest rate, and less likely to disappear/do something truly shyster-ish than a third party finance company. When that option is so clearly available, why would the club want to go through the massive grief and aggravation of running its own finance plan?

 

Long story short? There *is* a way it could be done without cost to the club. But for various reasons it's simply not an option the club would consider. So, in essence, there isn't.

 

Now recommence flaming.

[OldNick]

it looks as though NC and Ml honeymoon period is over. Take a pop at one of them and you are doing it to both. ML has supreme faith in NC and I suspect will take it badly if his chosen representative is getting flak.

I agree that Stu has not got a reasoned response, although the club must get loads of 'helpful ideas'

I have always thought that all football clubs look on the fans as mugs, they might say they dont but realistically we are suckers waiting to be fleeced.

Example, the wife goes out and buys my daughters something , i get home 'What the f### are you spending that on them for'

Thursday wife goes to megastore buys both daughters shirts £70 out the door, I come home 'They are great , did you get yourself one'

[lambertsrightleg]

Never been a fan of Ingerland since Le God was left out. SFC is much more important to me.

 

exactly!! for some reason england seems to be as important as a club team to all the "big 42 fans down the pub. rubbish

[StuRomseySaint]

With all due respect to the 'black or white brigade', perhaps both are true?

 

If the club wishes to run an installment plan, there will be costs involved. No getting around that.

 

There are essentially two options:

1) run your own, which is a ballache and probably what the 'high administrative costs' refer to. The club would have to jump through a whole load of hoops getting itself accredited as a financier, etc. The club then absorbs the costs.

2) Farm one out to a third party finance company, who will either a) bill the club a rate per ticket (so again, incurring costs on the part of the club) or b) whack an interest rate onto the repayment terms (which means the fan, not the club, pay the cost).

 

Now, obviously option b is what you're all banging on about, but before we all get quite so foamy mouthed, it might be worth thinking about reasons why option b would NOT be attractive to the club.

 

It involves a third party (a finance company no less) in the fundamental running of a major income stream of the club. It gives that third party essentially carte-blanche in respect of its terms. It places the club in a situation where it is reliant on said finance company to 'play by the rules', not take the **** in relation to interest rates, terms, cancelling tickets of people who miss one payment, selling the whole scheme on to a fourth party, etc etc, and not least remain solvent themselves.

 

Now, would anyone care to look at recent horror stories involving football clubs and financial third parties and volunteer a reason as to why that might not look like such a rosy option for our current owner (who, lest we forget, bailed the club out of the atrociously financially mismanaged scheisse it was in less than 12 months ago)?? If I was in his boat, there is absolutely no way I would hand over such a fundamental and emotive issue such as administration of season tickets to someone else.

 

I mean, can you imagine what would happen if they allowed a third party to manage the scheme, who then proceeded a few months down the line to load on stealth interest rates, start calling in the debt, sell the obligation to a further organisation (like one of those lovely hedge fund things), cancelling on obscure terms, or even going out of business? Net result is a lot of very ****ed off Saints fans who have paid out hundreds and whose tickets are no longer worth more than arse-paper. And I wonder who would be getting the blame in these circumstances? This forum would be FULL of threads complaining about how ML/NC/SFC have 'robbed' them. Not 'Ocean Finance are a bunch of dodgy ****ers, whoever knew they'd end up charging me 28% APR? We should never have gotten into bed with them in the first place', I would wager.

 

So essentially, when you realise how utterly unattractive that option is to the club, you're left with the sole option of the club footing the bill. Which, to be frank, is simply not worth it for them. As has previously been said, if you really want to pay in installments, walk into a high street bank (or get onto one of those newfangled innerweb things) and get yourself a personal loan. Better terms, better interest rate, and less likely to disappear/do something truly shyster-ish than a third party finance company. When that option is so clearly available, why would the club want to go through the massive grief and aggravation of running its own finance plan?

 

Long story short? There *is* a way it could be done without cost to the club. But for various reasons it's simply not an option the club would consider. So, in essence, there isn't.

 

Now recommence flaming.

 

Firstly, if it was 'more trouble than it's worth' , then why does every single club of our support have an installment plan, with the majority of them with the 2 finance companies that I sourced?

 

If the costs are that much, why does every single club of our support have an installment plan? Do you honestly think they are all wrong and Cortese, 11 months into football is right?

 

There is NO risk by using a 3rd party, it is a fixed interest rate ( if that's how they want to recover the fees, there are other ways, like charging and administration fee of only allowing installments based on the higher 'new' season ticket price ) , it is a fixed sum back over a fixed amount of months. That's it, nothing more, nothing less, it's the most simple thing in the world, I really don't know why so many people are still trying to pick holes.... it's not a hard system to work out.

 

And I won't even bother to answer your point about "a personal loan is so clearly available to everyone on better terms"... because that is just bullsh!t in every way.

[Windmill Arm 2]

Diddums !

[hypochondriac]

amazing the amount of people who come on this thread only to say they have no interest in it. Amazing.

[jam]

amazing the amount of people who come on this thread only to say they have no interest in it. Amazing.

 

Also interesting that there seems to be a few on the 'don't care' side who live away from Southampton so probably completely unaffected by the situation.

[Block 5]

What saddens me the most is the reaction from certain members of this forum.

We are supposed to be a united fanbase.

We should be demonstrating solidarity towards those fans who may incur hardship because they want to carry on supporting their club; that they have supported through two relegations.

 

Instead we see petty sniping, name-calling and some pretty harsh behaviour that borders on snobbery (diddums.........REALLY Windmill????)

 

Perhaps the last few years of in-fighting have proved more divisive than we realised?

Football fans are supposed to stick together but I fear we have become conditioned to accept a fanbase of factions.

[VectisSaint]

Remember, this is Liebherrs investment, not Cortese's, I strongly believe Liebherr will be here long after Cortese is gone.

On this point you are completely wrong. Liebherr would not be here at all if it wasn't for Cortese. If Cortese goes, Liebherr will go as well, there is absolutely no doubt about that. This is Cortese's project, Liebherr provides the funds for his friend, business partner and confidante.

 

I admire your persistence with the instalments thing, especially when it does not necessarily directly affect you, but in the end you continue to overlook one simple fact. Whatever instalment scheme the club puts in place does cost the club money to run. The cost is in the administration by an employee of the club in providing information to the finance company. Employees cost money, when times are hard their time is valuable and the business sees better ways of using their valuable time, or doesn't employ them at all. There is also the cost of providing information for the web site and so on. Sure, these costs could be passed on by the club to the customer, sorry supporter, but someone has probably done a study and determined that this cost would be unattractive to the majority of customers who would be interested in such a scheme.

 

The valid point you do have is that the club withdrew the scheme with no notice, thus meaning that those who do have to save had no advance warning to start saving for their season tickets. This to me is the only valid argument against the club, and does come over as not very customer-friendly. But then we have become used to customer-unfriendly service from our previous leader for many years, this is certainly no worse than what RL would have done, unless we want the good old days of Super Mikey Wilde back then this is probably how it goes these days. STs are not a great need for the club in its current position either financially or in the league, and so not seen as priority, which would be promotion and the investment in the club facilities. When we are back in the Prem and tickets are hard to come by with capacity gates again, and the club is trying to live within its financial bounds again, STs will become important and instament schemes will be reconsidered, in my opinion. Maybe sad but its harsh reality.

[buctootim]

For now, there's more important things than SFC. Come on England!!!

 

I am off down the pub in a minute.

 

It is a 'we will not enter a debate because you are right' and the excuse "high administrative costs" is complete bullsh!t.

 

so as I said, this is the last thread on the subject.

 

By commenting on this thread you are not letting the thread die are you Simple Mikey.

 

Anyway, pub and England awaits.

 

Anyway, the subjects even boring me now!

 

Firstly, before I fly out the door.............On a last note.............That really is all.

 

Let's forget about the Installment plan just for a minute.

 

why does every single club of our support have an installment plan?

 

And that is Stuey's last word on the subject......

Edited 19 June, 2010 by buctootim

[Hopkins]

People still trying to defend the club over this I see? Shocking.

 

I mean, however much I'm still going to get a season ticket and still keep going and however much I can see what Cortese is trying to do, how anyone can honestly try and defend the blatant lies and lack of apology/honesty from the club over this is beyond me. Shows that some people on here really are deluded tools.

[CB Fry]

What saddens me the most is the reaction from certain members of this forum.

We are supposed to be a united fanbase.

We should be demonstrating solidarity towards those fans who may incur hardship because they want to carry on supporting their club; that they have supported through two relegations.

 

Instead we see petty sniping, name-calling and some pretty harsh behaviour that borders on snobbery (diddums.........REALLY Windmill????)

 

Perhaps the last few years of in-fighting have proved more divisive than we realised?

Football fans are supposed to stick together but I fear we have become conditioned to accept a fanbase of factions.

 

 

So are you saying we should all be united in saying the club is wrong in taking this action, or united in saying the club is right in taking this action? You post doesn't make this clear, just vague "we should stick together" platitudes.

 

You have to pick one side of the argument if you want everyone to stick together, or just accept that there are two sides to a debate, and people are allowed to have differing views.

[StuRomseySaint]

So are you saying we should all be united in saying the club is wrong in taking this action, or united in saying the club is right in taking this action? You post doesn't make this clear, just vague "we should stick together" platitudes.

 

You have to pick one side of the argument if you want everyone to stick together, or just accept that there are two sides to a debate, and people are allowed to have differing views.

 

What reason would you have to stick by the club when they have been proven to be lieing to fans ( yes, I am happy to say that on here and I am happy for them to send me a letter threatening me with legal action, as they have done other Saints fans over completely fickle things ) .

 

Believe me, I would not post on here statements saying the club is lieing to it's supporters unless I was 100% certain that all my information was factual, because believe me, the club WOULD take legal action against me, you or anyone else who has a bad word to say about the club/chairman without reason.

 

So there is no debate as whether the club is lieing to its fans, that is 100% FACT, there is no debate as to whether the club has justified their position and shown any empathy/understanding towards the supporters, that is 100% FACT that they haven't.

 

All I have done is deal in facts, not speculation, to be honest I couldn't give a monkeys about the cyber warriors like Windmill acting like tossers, I will enjoy the "I told you so" moments when they happen... because believe me, they will, sooner or later they are going to do something which affect you, Windmill and everyone else which has come on here and had a pop...

 

Like Hypo said though, the amount of people that have come on a thread to say how boring/stupid/diddums/shut up etc when the title is quite clear what the subject is about really does show how retarded and not normal our support is.

[StuRomseySaint]

On this point you are completely wrong. Liebherr would not be here at all if it wasn't for Cortese. If Cortese goes, Liebherr will go as well, there is absolutely no doubt about that. This is Cortese's project, Liebherr provides the funds for his friend, business partner and confidante.

 

I admire your persistence with the instalments thing, especially when it does not necessarily directly affect you, but in the end you continue to overlook one simple fact. Whatever instalment scheme the club puts in place does cost the club money to run. The cost is in the administration by an employee of the club in providing information to the finance company. Employees cost money, when times are hard their time is valuable and the business sees better ways of using their valuable time, or doesn't employ them at all. There is also the cost of providing information for the web site and so on. Sure, these costs could be passed on by the club to the customer, sorry supporter, but someone has probably done a study and determined that this cost would be unattractive to the majority of customers who would be interested in such a scheme.

 

The valid point you do have is that the club withdrew the scheme with no notice, thus meaning that those who do have to save had no advance warning to start saving for their season tickets. This to me is the only valid argument against the club, and does come over as not very customer-friendly. But then we have become used to customer-unfriendly service from our previous leader for many years, this is certainly no worse than what RL would have done, unless we want the good old days of Super Mikey Wilde back then this is probably how it goes these days. STs are not a great need for the club in its current position either financially or in the league, and so not seen as priority, which would be promotion and the investment in the club facilities. When we are back in the Prem and tickets are hard to come by with capacity gates again, and the club is trying to live within its financial bounds again, STs will become important and instament schemes will be reconsidered, in my opinion. Maybe sad but its harsh reality.

 

Listen mate, seriously, do I have to explain it again?

 

THERE IS NO SIGNIFICANT COSTS TO THE CLUB - THIS IS 100% FACT AND WHY ALL FOOTBALL CLUBS IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP AND PREMIERSHIP USE THIS SYSTEM

 

I don't know how many times I can repeat this very simple thing. The only administration by the club is someone putting the form in an envelope and sending it to Premium Credit/Zebra. These companies ADMINISTRATE the collection, they do EVERYTHING, all SFC have to do is check the bank account each month. The finance companies chase up defaulters etc, apply CCJ's/Debt Recovery etc... they can do it ALL, at NO cost to the club.

 

Its a lie, a 100% blatant, made up, bullsh!t lie. Simple as that, no if's - no buts... its a lie. If people are happy to have a secret society football club to support then they will get the club they deserve.

Edited 19 June, 2010 by StuRomseySaint

[OldNick]

What reason would you have to stick by the club when they have been proven to be lieing to fans ( yes, I am happy to say that on here and I am happy for them to send me a letter threatening me with legal action, as they have done other Saints fans over completely fickle things ) .

 

Believe me, I would not post on here statements saying the club is lieing to it's supporters unless I was 100% certain that all my information was factual, because believe me, the club WOULD take legal action against me, you or anyone else who has a bad word to say about the club/chairman without reason.

 

So there is no debate as whether the club is lieing to its fans, that is 100% FACT, there is no debate as to whether the club has justified their position and shown any empathy/understanding towards the supporters, that is 100% FACT that they haven't.

 

All I have done is deal in facts, not speculation, to be honest I couldn't give a monkeys about the cyber warriors like Windmill acting like tossers, I will enjoy the "I told you so" moments when they happen... because believe me, they will, sooner or later they are going to do something which affect you, Windmill and everyone else which has come on here and had a pop...

 

Like Hypo said though, the amount of people that have come on a thread to say how boring/stupid/diddums/shut up etc when the title is quite clear what the subject is about really does show how retarded and not normal our support is.

 

Stu I dont think the club are lying. They dont want a debate as a decision is made and so wish to move on. I know you have taken a lot of time but whatever you say or how you set it out the club will have costs. Whether it be paying the third party a commission on sales or trying to stop people who have defaulted not using the S/T. Again all bad publicity for them in a no win situation.

If a fan has a bad credit history and can't get a loan elsewhere, are the club expected to cough up when it is not their fault?

I have every sympathy with people who cannot afford to buy a ticket in one go, and the installment plan must have helped many people, but I suggest that a fair percentage took the p### and the club were left chasing shadows.

I dont condone the reply you got from the club, and feel they could have worded it more kindly, but it was firm in respect that it left no doubt that they will not get involved in a debate. You will not reply and so they can now move onto the next problem.

[buctootim]

Maybe the club just dont want to do it. Maybe they think its morally reprehensible to sell supporters credit which charges up to 38% interest apr. Maybe they are right.

[Barney Trubble]

What reason would you have to stick by the club when they have been proven to be lieing to fans ( yes, I am happy to say that on here and I am happy for them to send me a letter threatening me with legal action, as they have done other Saints fans over completely fickle things ) .

 

Believe me, I would not post on here statements saying the club is lieing to it's supporters unless I was 100% certain that all my information was factual, because believe me, the club WOULD take legal action against me, you or anyone else who has a bad word to say about the club/chairman without reason.

 

So there is no debate as whether the club is lieing to its fans, that is 100% FACT, there is no debate as to whether the club has justified their position and shown any empathy/understanding towards the supporters, that is 100% FACT that they haven't.

 

All I have done is deal in facts, not speculation, to be honest I couldn't give a monkeys about the cyber warriors like Windmill acting like tossers, I will enjoy the "I told you so" moments when they happen... because believe me, they will, sooner or later they are going to do something which affect you, Windmill and everyone else which has come on here and had a pop...

 

Like Hypo said though, the amount of people that have come on a thread to say how boring/stupid/diddums/shut up etc when the title is quite clear what the subject is about really does show how retarded and not normal our support is.

 

To be honest Stu, you are jut wasting your time with some of the jokers on here, you can't reason with people who are just intent on wanting to disagree with you. If this was another poster, say Minty, you'd find a lot of those who are splitting hairs with you on this issue would be in total agreement with a poster such as Minty.

 

Just like life in general, there will always be those that agree in principal, but couldn't really give a toss, or won't make an effort to mobilise change, as it doesn't affect them directly....apathy will always rule until it hits them. I think you'll find a lot on here are NIMBY's, so unless an issue hits them smack on the nose, then they'll just sit back and not get involved until it does.

 

FWIW, I think you have a real point and the more successful we become, then the more I feel we will be penalised in our pockets by Cortese....whether that's just the way it goes in business and with success comes a higher price, I'm probably not best qualified to answer.... but I'm sure that the more they test the fan base and see the lack of resistance to the helping hand being withdrawn, then the more likely they are to test the pocket of the fans further.....It feels like a case of 'pay up or go elsewehere'

[channonball]

The club have probably applied some basic commercials. E.g. only 1000 people last year used the scheme, 750 will probably renew. Of the 250 that do not renew, they will probably cherry pick games and assuming we win, will want to come to more than they miss. Coupled with the £3 tax, the club can probably safely assume they will make more cash then they would lose in season ticket sales.

 

This may not be particularly customer friendly but then they've probably taken the stance that only a minority of fans will be affected or actually care, so it is worth the upside in future revs. The only downside I can see for the club is the negative PR that this generates, but again as soon as the seasons starts and assuming we are winning games, no one will care.

[View From The Top]

People still trying to defend the club over this I see? Shocking.

 

I mean, however much I'm still going to get a season ticket and still keep going and however much I can see what Cortese is trying to do, how anyone can honestly try and defend the blatant lies and lack of apology/honesty from the club over this is beyond me. Shows that some people on here really are deluded tools.

 

Spot. On.

[redandwhitey]

just a thought.

If there really is no cost to running a season ticket installment plan/credit scheme etc why not get one of the fans' associations to run it.

If it really is that simple why not the saints web ?

They already have payment systems in place.

it would increase the membership (included in the price ??) and profile if advertised properly And be doing something good for the club and more importantly the supporters.

I wonder what kind of response there would be.??

[CB Fry]

What reason would you have to stick by the club when they have been proven to be lieing to fans ( yes, I am happy to say that on here and I am happy for them to send me a letter threatening me with legal action, as they have done other Saints fans over completely fickle things ) .

 

Believe me, I would not post on here statements saying the club is lieing to it's supporters unless I was 100% certain that all my information was factual, because believe me, the club WOULD take legal action against me, you or anyone else who has a bad word to say about the club/chairman without reason.

 

So there is no debate as whether the club is lieing to its fans, that is 100% FACT, there is no debate as to whether the club has justified their position and shown any empathy/understanding towards the supporters, that is 100% FACT that they haven't.

 

All I have done is deal in facts, not speculation, to be honest I couldn't give a monkeys about the cyber warriors like Windmill acting like tossers, I will enjoy the "I told you so" moments when they happen... because believe me, they will, sooner or later they are going to do something which affect you, Windmill and everyone else which has come on here and had a pop...

 

Like Hypo said though, the amount of people that have come on a thread to say how boring/stupid/diddums/shut up etc when the title is quite clear what the subject is about really does show how retarded and not normal our support is.

 

 

 

Not entirely sure why you quoted me in your reply, but happy to make it clear I 100% agree with you.

 

The club is being run in what seems like a rather petulant way at the moment, and this episode is a pretty stark example of that.

 

The divs writing "diddums" are in the wrong, as are the people rolling out the "we should all stick together" stuff, unless that sticking together is firmly and aggressively against this pointless, childish and arrogant action.

[StuRomseySaint]

Maybe the club just dont want to do it. Maybe they think its morally reprehensible to sell supporters credit which charges up to 38% interest apr. Maybe they are right.

 

Maybe you could actually read the whole thread you will know that 38% APR is complete b*llocks, and maybe you might have read my comments about it being up to the club, not the credit company how much interest is charged. Maybe rather than trolling and try and snipe from the safety of your PC you will look at the facts.

[trousers]

With all due respect to the 'black or white brigade', perhaps both are true?

 

If the club wishes to run an installment plan, there will be costs involved. No getting around that.

 

There are essentially two options:

1) run your own, which is a ballache and probably what the 'high administrative costs' refer to. The club would have to jump through a whole load of hoops getting itself accredited as a financier, etc. The club then absorbs the costs.

2) Farm one out to a third party finance company, who will either a) bill the club a rate per ticket (so again, incurring costs on the part of the club) or b) whack an interest rate onto the repayment terms (which means the fan, not the club, pay the cost).

 

Now, obviously option b is what you're all banging on about, but before we all get quite so foamy mouthed, it might be worth thinking about reasons why option b would NOT be attractive to the club.

 

It involves a third party (a finance company no less) in the fundamental running of a major income stream of the club. It gives that third party essentially carte-blanche in respect of its terms. It places the club in a situation where it is reliant on said finance company to 'play by the rules', not take the **** in relation to interest rates, terms, cancelling tickets of people who miss one payment, selling the whole scheme on to a fourth party, etc etc, and not least remain solvent themselves.

 

Now, would anyone care to look at recent horror stories involving football clubs and financial third parties and volunteer a reason as to why that might not look like such a rosy option for our current owner (who, lest we forget, bailed the club out of the atrociously financially mismanaged scheisse it was in less than 12 months ago)?? If I was in his boat, there is absolutely no way I would hand over such a fundamental and emotive issue such as administration of season tickets to someone else.

 

I mean, can you imagine what would happen if they allowed a third party to manage the scheme, who then proceeded a few months down the line to load on stealth interest rates, start calling in the debt, sell the obligation to a further organisation (like one of those lovely hedge fund things), cancelling on obscure terms, or even going out of business? Net result is a lot of very ****ed off Saints fans who have paid out hundreds and whose tickets are no longer worth more than arse-paper. And I wonder who would be getting the blame in these circumstances? This forum would be FULL of threads complaining about how ML/NC/SFC have 'robbed' them. Not 'Ocean Finance are a bunch of dodgy ****ers, whoever knew they'd end up charging me 28% APR? We should never have gotten into bed with them in the first place', I would wager.

 

So essentially, when you realise how utterly unattractive that option is to the club, you're left with the sole option of the club footing the bill. Which, to be frank, is simply not worth it for them. As has previously been said, if you really want to pay in installments, walk into a high street bank (or get onto one of those newfangled innerweb things) and get yourself a personal loan. Better terms, better interest rate, and less likely to disappear/do something truly shyster-ish than a third party finance company. When that option is so clearly available, why would the club want to go through the massive grief and aggravation of running its own finance plan?

 

Long story short? There *is* a way it could be done without cost to the club. But for various reasons it's simply not an option the club would consider. So, in essence, there isn't.

 

Now recommence flaming.

 

This

[StuRomseySaint]

just a thought.

If there really is no cost to running a season ticket installment plan/credit scheme etc why not get one of the fans' associations to run it.

If it really is that simple why not the saints web ?

They already have payment systems in place.

it would increase the membership (included in the price ??) and profile if advertised properly And be doing something good for the club and more importantly the supporters.

I wonder what kind of response there would be.??

 

It's not a credit. It is premium collection, a supporters group could indeed run it, I don't see a reason why not as there really is nothing to do, but Southampton FC would have to agree to have 3-6 installments as opposed to the whole lot up front, Premium or Zebra do not lend the customer the money then pay in full, they collect the premiums on behalf of the club month by month.

[once_bitterne]

I would imagine that will be the case yes. Hopefully then that will open people's eyes.

 

Do people really want Lowe back?

[StuRomseySaint]

This

 

How is that Trousers? Pretty much all of that is either speculation, bullsh!t or just simply wrong.

[trousers]

On this point you are completely wrong. Liebherr would not be here at all if it wasn't for Cortese. If Cortese goes, Liebherr will go as well, there is absolutely no doubt about that. This is Cortese's project, Liebherr provides the funds for his friend, business partner and confidante.

 

I admire your persistence with the instalments thing, especially when it does not necessarily directly affect you, but in the end you continue to overlook one simple fact. Whatever instalment scheme the club puts in place does cost the club money to run. The cost is in the administration by an employee of the club in providing information to the finance company. Employees cost money, when times are hard their time is valuable and the business sees better ways of using their valuable time, or doesn't employ them at all. There is also the cost of providing information for the web site and so on. Sure, these costs could be passed on by the club to the customer, sorry supporter, but someone has probably done a study and determined that this cost would be unattractive to the majority of customers who would be interested in such a scheme.

 

The valid point you do have is that the club withdrew the scheme with no notice, thus meaning that those who do have to save had no advance warning to start saving for their season tickets. This to me is the only valid argument against the club, and does come over as not very customer-friendly. But then we have become used to customer-unfriendly service from our previous leader for many years, this is certainly no worse than what RL would have done, unless we want the good old days of Super Mikey Wilde back then this is probably how it goes these days. STs are not a great need for the club in its current position either financially or in the league, and so not seen as priority, which would be promotion and the investment in the club facilities. When we are back in the Prem and tickets are hard to come by with capacity gates again, and the club is trying to live within its financial bounds again, STs will become important and instament schemes will be reconsidered, in my opinion. Maybe sad but its harsh reality.

 

This too

[dune]

It's becoming clearer by the day that Cortese has zero interest in fans. To him we are just customers to be exploited. Like SRS I will be making no special effort to put money into SFC and will do more away games - avoiding the £3 booking tax where possible.

[buctootim]

It's not a credit. Premium or Zebra do not lend the customer the money then pay in full, they collect the premiums on behalf of the club month by month.

 

Wrong, wrong and not true.

http://www.premium-credit.co.uk/customer_faqs.html

 

http://www.zebrafinance.co.uk/seasonticketappform.pdf

Which part of point b in the customer declaration isnt clear?: "The finance agreement is between you and Zebra Finance and the football club plays no part in credit decisions".

Edited 19 June, 2010 by buctootim

[NickG]

amazing the amount of people who come on this thread only to say they have no interest in it. Amazing.

 

I just come on to see how many times Stu can say that he is not going to say anything more on the issue!

[StuRomseySaint]

Wrong, wrong and not true.

http://www.premium-credit.co.uk/customer_faqs.html

 

http://www.zebrafinance.co.uk/seasonticketappform.pdf

Which part of point b in the customer declaration isnt clear?: "The finance agreement is between you and Zebra Finance and the football club plays no part in credit decisions".

 

1st link. You have found the link to the company which explains insurance premiums not season ticket finance.

 

2nd link. Because they put in their terms and conditions that they may credit check you ( which is the law ) , how does that state the full amount is paid to the club? Even if it was the case (which is not how it was explained to me when I spoke to them, but was told every club plan is bespoke to the individual clubs requirement, so a possibility ) then surely all that proves is that it's even less of a risk to the club because it's a loan between you and Zebra Finance. The club are paid in full so there is no issue with defaulters etc because the club will have recieved the full amount and Premium will do the chasing up for THEIR money.

 

But nowhere in that second part does it state they will lend you the money in the form of a loan.

 

So I am not sure what your point is, but you fail on all accounts.

[buctootim]

Maybe you could actually read the whole thread you will know that 38% APR is complete b*llocks, and maybe you might have read my comments about it being up to the club, not the credit company how much interest is charged. Maybe rather than trolling and try and snipe from the safety of your PC you will look at the facts.

 

http://www.bcfc.co.uk/staticFiles/12/38/0,,10327~145426,00.pdf

Read the second page of the Bristol City pdf for last season - 38.5% APR. However since I know you like to disregard facts in preference to what you want to believe, I wont hold my breath for an apology.

 

Yes it can be up to the club how much interest is charged depending on whether they want to make a profit from the scheme ala Bristol, or subsidise it. Doesnt change the fact that in most schemes supporters have to pay 19.9%APR and the company also make a factoring charge to the club -ie charge both sides. Nice business if you can get it - especially if there are enough web mongs saying its a good deal for everybody.

Edited 19 June, 2010 by buctootim

[Block 5]

So are you saying we should all be united in saying the club is wrong in taking this action, or united in saying the club is right in taking this action? You post doesn't make this clear, just vague "we should stick together" platitudes.

 

You have to pick one side of the argument if you want everyone to stick together, or just accept that there are two sides to a debate, and people are allowed to have differing views.

 

Apologies for not making it clear in my post. I find it difficult to see how anyone could think that the club have done the right thing here.

 

I think you're being a bit harsh by intimating that my sentiments regarding solidarity are merely platitudes.

 

Unfortunately, as long as the WUMs are on here saying "diddums" to Stu et al then Cortese will take no notice.

When we actually do stick together and shout out "Cortese....you're out of order!" with one voice, then the club might start to listen.

I fear that some time down the line when the club does something that affects the WUMs as well as the rest of us, it may be too late.

[buctootim]

1st link. You have found the link to the company which explains insurance premiums not season ticket finance.

 

2nd link. Because they put in their terms and conditions that they may credit check you ( which is the law ) , how does that state the full amount is paid to the club? Even if it was the case (which is not how it was explained to me when I spoke to them, but was told every club plan is bespoke to the individual clubs requirement, so a possibility ) then surely all that proves is that it's even less of a risk to the club because it's a loan between you and Zebra Finance. The club are paid in full so there is no issue with defaulters etc because the club will have recieved the full amount and Premium will do the chasing up for THEIR money.

 

But nowhere in that second part does it state they will lend you the money in the form of a loan.

 

So I am not sure what your point is, but you fail on all accounts.

 

If you really cant read the application forms of the companies whose schemes you are championing then you are even more challenged than it would appear.

[aintforever]

But then we have become used to customer-unfriendly service from our previous leader for many years, this is certainly no worse than what RL would have done,

 

As much as I dislike Lowe he did give fans the option of installments even when we didn't have a penny to scratch our ass with. You are talking out of your anus.

 

I am amazed how quickley Cortese has managed to **** up the feel good factor, if he had any sense at all he would have had my ST cash in the bank over 3 months ago - it would have been like taking candy from a baby. As it stands I will probably pay for 4 or 5 home games next season - you do the maths.

[OldNick]

Apologies for not making it clear in my post. I find it difficult to see how anyone could think that the club have done the right thing here.

 

I think you're being a bit harsh by intimating that my sentiments regarding solidarity are merely platitudes.

 

Unfortunately, as long as the WUMs are on here saying "diddums" to Stu et al then Cortese will take no notice.

When we actually do stick together and shout out "Cortese....you're out of order!" with one voice, then the club might start to listen.

I fear that some time down the line when the club does something that affects the WUMs as well as the rest of us, it may be too late.

That's fine if the majority are unhappy but frankly I believe the majority feel it is a mountain out of a molehill. The football club have no responsibility to offer installment plans and have obviously found it onerous to do so. I believe that the majority of people are bright enough to go and get credit if needed and don't need to pay extortionate rates to do so.

Im sure there will be many other causes in the future if the clubs response to Stu is anything to go by. Iam amazed at the message they sent and is totally out of line with their normal stuff. To be fair telling him to 'F### off, and mind your own business' can never be done nicely but they could have been a tad softer.

[OldNick]

If you really cant read the application forms of the companies whose schemes you are championing then you are even more challenged than it would appear.

 

A tad harsh Tim, but after your comment calling me a goon not getting into shares a few weeks ago I realise it may be your normal manner

[dune]

Apologies for not making it clear in my post. I find it difficult to see how anyone could think that the club have done the right thing here.

 

I think you're being a bit harsh by intimating that my sentiments regarding solidarity are merely platitudes.

 

Unfortunately, as long as the WUMs are on here saying "diddums" to Stu et al then Cortese will take no notice.

When we actually do stick together and shout out "Cortese....you're out of order!" with one voice, then the club might start to listen.

I fear that some time down the line when the club does something that affects the WUMs as well as the rest of us, it may be too late.

 

It will come to pass.

[buctootim]

Its not harsh Nick. Stu is trying to pretend the schemes arent credit when they self evidently are and then insulting people who point out the bleeding obvious. He isnt doing fans or club any favours. If he wants to snap then occasionally people will snap back.

[OldNick]

Its not harsh Nick. Stu is trying to pretend the schemes arent credit when they self evidently are and then insulting people who point out the bleeding obvious. He isnt doing fans or club any favours. If he wants to snap then occasionally people will snap back.

 

Fair comment. i abhor those credit companies who know that they can rip people off as they are a credit risk. never will they escape it , very sad and is not what capitalism is about IMo