Analysis of Hooiveld Errors this Season

[Saint Charlie]

While there is a lot of speculative conjecture being bandied about on here as usual, I want to keep to the facts about Jos Hooiveld's performance this season, and the doubts that persist over his ability as a Premier League footballer.

 

Before that, one point: Hooiveld comes across as a very nice, polite and respectful man who was very good for us last season and has had some decent games this year too.

 

In your opinion, is this too many "serious errors" compared to the number of matches played?

 

Sun 19th Aug - Man City away (3-2 loss)

 

Hooiveld clumsily trips Tevez to concede a penalty which is then saved by Davis.

 

Sun 2nd September - Man Utd home (3-2 loss)

 

Hooiveld ludicrously slides in on van Persie to concede a penalty which again Davis saves.

 

Sat 15th Sept - Arsenal away (6-1 loss)

 

Hooiveld somehow fails to clear the ball from the goal-line, instead clumsily tripping up and the ball going into our own net. Subbed injured.

 

Sun 7th Oct - Fulham home (2-2 draw)

 

Hooiveld essentially scores two own goals. The second he could arguably do little about, the first he widly hacks at a Riise shot that was heading wide and clumsily deflects the ball into his own net.

 

Tues 30th Oct Leeds away (3-0 loss)

 

Rushed and clumsy clearance falls to Micheal Tonge to score one of Leeds goals.

 

Sat 30th March Chelsea home (2-1 win)

 

Hooiveld completely loses Chelsea's man threat from set pieces before slipping over and John Terry heads home unmarked.

 

Sat 6th April Reading away (2-0 win)

 

Hooiveld slightly fortunate not to concede a penalty for a clumsy (although probably just about fair) tackle on Hal Robson-Kanu.

 

Sat 13th April West Ham home (1-1 draw)

 

Hooiveld clearly didn't learn from last week or earlier in the season as he clumsily brings down a WH player on the edge of the box and Andy Carroll scores a deflected free kick.

 

 

 

TOTAL season starts: 23

 

TOTAL serious individual errors leading to goals against: 6 (Hooiveld makes a serious error leading to a goal against approx every 4 games)

 

TOTAL including serious errors not leading to goal ie penalties saved etc: 9 (Hooiveld makes a serious error other teams can punish in just under 40% of his matches)

 

NB: None of the goals in the generally awful defensive performances at West Ham (4-1 loss) or Stoke (3-3 draw) are included as there were no specific "serious errors" made by Jos.

 

 

Personal opinion - Most of these errors are from clumsy play, hacking wildly at shots or needlessly tripping clever opponents. Jos is clumsy, but not a bad defender. The clumsiness is however, exploited at this level and IMO he would be easily replaceable in the summer.

 

It is also worrying that he had a poor start, then a good spell when MP took over, but has slipped back again the last three games, two of which he has made poor errors leading to goals and one which he could easily have conceded another penalty.

Edited 15 April, 2013 by Saint Charlie

[Dig Dig]

So in summary, are you saying that Jos is clumsy?

 

If so, I think I may agree

[Rasiak-9-]

The problem with Hooiveld is that when he (often) gets his body positioning wrong he always tackles with his left foot (which, by law of averages, is the wrong foot 50% of the time)

 

The would-have-been-given-at-Old-Trafford 'penalty' at Reading and the free-kick against West Ham are perfect examples. In both he should have been tackling with his right foot.

[Lets B Avenue]

and one which he could easily have conceded another penalty.

 

Alternatively, you could say that he tackled the opponent fairly and prevented a goal. The fact that you feel it could have been a penalty, is irrelevant to your stats.

[Saint Charlie]

The problem with Hooiveld is that when he (often) gets his body positioning wrong he always tackles with his left foot (which, by law of averages, is the wrong foot 50% of the time)

 

The would-have-been-given-at-Old-Trafford 'penalty' at Reading and the free-kick against West Ham are perfect examples. In both he should have been tackling with his right foot.

 

The West Ham one I think he just got there too slow. A more nimble defender like Yoshida would have got to the ball, and if they didnt think they could would have just got in a position to close the forward down instead.

[Saint Charlie]

Alternatively, you could say that he tackled the opponent fairly and prevented a goal. The fact that you feel it could have been a penalty, is irrelevant to your stats.

 

Indeed. Although you would say that the Reading one and the WH one were very similar, after the let off at Reading would you then do the same thing in the next game?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Surely for him to make a serious error leading to a goal every 0.26 games, he would have to be making 4 per match? Not 6 in 23?

[Maggie May]

The Independent gave him MOTM on Saturday.

[Saint Charlie]

Surely for him to make a serious error leading to a goal every 0.26 games, he would have to be making 4 per match? Not 6 in 23?

 

In a quarter of his games (0.26) he makes a serious error leading to a goal. 6 errors in 23 games = 26% of the games.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

So it should be just under every 4 games? Or he makes 0.26 serious errors per games.

 

I know I sound like MLG, but the two are quite different.

[Saint Charlie]

So it should be just under every 4 games? Or he makes 0.26 serious errors per games.

 

I know I sound like MLG, but the two are quite different.

 

Ok - every four games he makes a serious error leading to a goal.

 

Just under 40% of games he makes a serious error of some kind that either results in a goal or very good chance ie penalty..

Edited 15 April, 2013 by Saint Charlie

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Ok - every four games he makes a serious error leading to a goal.

 

Sorry. I think your analysis is good. But subtle differences make a big difference. Originally, how you had it meant he was making a mistake every quarter of a game!

 

Decent thread though.

[Lallana's Left Peg]

Just to play devils advocate, if we had a striker, say, a striker who has scored over 100 goals for the club in under four seasons, and he misses a good chance to score which he should really put away at least once every four games, would we want him replaced?

[Saints foreva]

Like Jos but Fonte is the better defender out of the two. Hopefully Fonte returns to the starting line up on Saturday.

[Saint Charlie]

Just to play devils advocate' date=' if we had a striker, say, a striker who has scored over 100 goals for the club in under four seasons, and he misses a good chance to score which he should really put away at least once every four games, would we want him replaced?[/quote']

 

No. But not many teams persist too long with defenders who make the volume of errors Hooiveld hs this season.

[Saint Garrett]

I think he had a dodgy start of the season, and the combination of him and Fox is asking for problems, however personally think he's been one of our best performers the last few months.

[Dig Dig]

No. But not many teams persist too long with defenders who make the volume of errors Hooiveld hs this season.

 

Titus Bramble? David Luiz? James Collins?

 

There are plenty out there.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Can we not just do this the old way Charlie?

 

Jos Hooiveld....

 

Dutch Destroyer

 

 

Or soggy Pancake?

 

[david in sweden]

 

Personal opinion - Most of these errors are from clumsy play, hacking wildly at shots or needlessly tripping clever opponents. Jos is clumsy, but not a bad defender. The clumsiness is however, exploited at this level and IMO he would be easily replaceable in the summer.

 

It is also worrying that he had a poor start, then a good spell when MP took over, but has slipped back again the last three games, two of which he has made poor errors leading to goals and one which he could easily have conceded another penalty.

 

 

 

..so from these (impressive) stats. we can more or less understand that you don't rate Jos......suggest he should attend ballet classes so that his future errors don't appear to be quite so clumsy.

 

one stat. you missed was that Jos won the ball and made 14 clearances in the Man.City game...don't know how many of them were clumsy, though ?....

 

Of course those three OG's were clumsy too, and not nearly as stylish as that classic back-pass type that England " star " Gareth Barry did so well...at SMS.

 

Question : Do you have comparative stats. for our " other clumsy defenders..." ?

Edited 15 April, 2013 by david in sweden

[Saint Charlie]

Titus Bramble? David Luiz? James Collins?

 

There are plenty out there.

 

Ha - fair point, although not on Luiz. He has been excellent this season IMO.

[saint si]

I look forward to reading a thread like this on every member of the squad. It's important we point out to them all their mistakes in excruciating detail otherwise they'll never know how bad they are.

[Olallana]

Dont understand how the total amount of errors is put to 9, when the Reading one was never called and one of those against Fulham you claim he could do little about...?

 

And I dont agree with the West Ham one (but this is of course a matter of opinion). More or less every CB in the league will give away freekicks outside the box (I think Vidic did it 2 or 3 times against us at Old Trafford).

If the freekicks doesn´t turn into a goal noone remember those and it´s a bit of the "nature" when playing CB in this league I think...

[Saint Charlie]

..so from these (impressive) stats. we can more or less understand that you don't rate Jos......suggest he should attend ballet classes so that his future errors don't appear to be quite so clumsy.

 

one stat. you missed was that Jos won the ball and made 14 clearances in the Man.City game...don't know how many of them were clumsy, though ?....

 

Of course those three OG's were clumsy too, and not nearly as stylish as that classic back-pass type that England " star " Gareth Barry did so well...at SMS.

 

Question : Do you have comparative stats. for our " other clumsy defenders..." ?

 

Whats your point Davie? That because Barry is crap its ok for Jos to be as well? And its fine making 20 clearances a game, but if you can't track terry from a corner, or swipe at RVP/Tevez in the box then it kind of undoes any good work!

 

I know Yoshida has made a couple of poor errors in about 30 games (Arsenal away, QPR home, Wigan away) but nowhere near the number Jos has in a lot more games.

 

Fonte similar, probably 2 or 3, certainly not a poor error in nearly 40% of his matches.

[Saint Charlie]

Dont understand how the total amount of errors is put to 9, when the Reading one was never called and one of those against Fulham you claim he could do little about...?

 

And I dont agree with the West Ham one (but this is of course a matter of opinion). More or less every CB in the league will give away freekicks outside the box (I think Vidic did it 2 or 3 times against us at Old Trafford).

If the freekicks doesn´t turn into a goal noone remember those and it´s a bit of the "nature" when playing CB in this league I think...

 

Re Reading he turned like a tanker in the box and then put a tackle in that was very borderline. For me, it was a poor piece of defensive play being turned that easily and the tackle would often have been awarded as a pen. I can understand the controversy of that opinion, but remember that if City and Utd had scored their pens then it would be 8 errors leading to goals in 23 games which isnt pretty.

 

Re Fulham, he didn't learn from the first one and again stuck his leg out to deflect a shot that would have been saved.

[doggface]

Like jos as a guy and was great at championship level. Prem is a big step up tho and he was apalling at the start. Since then he has improved and had some great games, great vs Dzeko. That said, is still no better than back up at this level and needs to stop crying about the start of the year.

 

He was playing **** and needs to accept it and move on.

[Pancake]

Or soggy Pancake?

 

You coming first?

[Saint Charlie]

Opta Joe @OptaJoe Of the 34 goals Southampton have conceded this season whilst Jos Hooiveld has been on the pitch, 68% of them have gone in whilst the defender has been lying on the ground.

[Saint Garrett]

Opta Joe @OptaJoe Of the 34 goals Southampton have conceded this season whilst Jos Hooiveld has been on the pitch, 68% of them have gone in whilst the defender has been lying on the ground.

 

Probably because he is sliding in trying to block a shot I would imagine !?

[Dig Dig]

Opta Joe @OptaJoe of the 23 goals conceded whilst Hooiveld has been lying on the ground, only 33% were as a result of a sliding challenge or block.

[SaintDan]

So in summary, he's made mistakes that some have lead to goals and some haven't.

 

Its worth looking at but there again Fonte and Yoshida have made mistakes too (Wigan and Swansea home respectively).

 

Hooiveld for me was one of the players of the season last season....until we played Ipswich at home where he was notably shaky and since then hasn't really done anything to give me confidence or reasoning as to why he's first choice, especially given Fonte's leadership and form since September.

 

The only argument for him playing, which is part of the reason as to why we signed him, is because he is left footed which helps us play the ball out from the back and making clearances from the left hand side.

 

Most people on the forum think Centre backs are priority this summer to which I agree, time to move Hooiveld & Martin on (and perhaps Fonte) and bring in 1 maybe 2 new top (goal scoring) centre backs whilst developing Stephens and utilising Forren in some way or another.

[Saint Charlie]

Opta Joe @optajoe Of the goals conceded whilst lying on the ground, 87% were due to Hooiveld being clumsy, an @premierleague record.

[Saint Garrett]

Opta Joe @OptaJoe of the 23 goals conceded whilst Hooiveld has been lying on the ground, only 33% were as a result of a sliding challenge or block.

 

Why can I not find these tweets !?

[SuperMikey]

The tackle against Reading was absolutely spot-on, a brilliant tackle. Similar kind of situation to the Danny Fox yellow card/second yellow against Birmingham away last season. Excellent tackles but they take the man afterwards, so refs can misinterpret the situation.

[s0108787]

The tackle against Reading was absolutely spot-on, a brilliant tackle. Similar kind of situation to the Danny Fox yellow card/second yellow against Birmingham away last season. Excellent tackles but they take the man afterwards, so refs can misinterpret the situation.

 

this

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

This analysis means little unless you can compare it to the other defenders. Even great defenders will make mistakes in an overworked defence - which ours was in the first third of the season. How does Jos compare to the rest of the back four regulars?

[Stepgar]

The tackle against Reading was absolutely spot-on, a brilliant tackle. Similar kind of situation to the Danny Fox yellow card/second yellow against Birmingham away last season. Excellent tackles but they take the man afterwards, so refs can misinterpret the situation.

 

Absoloutly it was a brilliant challenge. I understand what mean but you are wrong. It ad to be perfect and it was. Had it been. Fraction out I would be a stone wall pen. Give the man a bit of credit.

[monsoon]

While there is a lot of speculative conjecture being bandied about on here as usual, I want to keep to the facts about Jos Hooiveld's performance this season, and the doubts that persist over his ability as a Premier League footballer.

 

Before that, one point: Hooiveld comes across as a very nice, polite and respectful man who was very good for us last season and has had some decent games this year too.

 

In your opinion, is this too many "serious errors" compared to the number of matches played?

 

Sun 19th Aug - Man City away (3-2 loss)

 

Hooiveld clumsily trips Tevez to concede a penalty which is then saved by Davis.

 

Sun 2nd September - Man Utd home (3-2 loss)

 

Hooiveld ludicrously slides in on van Persie to concede a penalty which again Davis saves.

 

 

 

 

Sat 15th Sept - Arsenal away (6-1 loss)

 

Hooiveld somehow fails to clear the ball from the goal-line, instead clumsily tripping up and the ball going into our own net. Subbed injured.

 

Sun 7th Oct - Fulham home (2-2 draw)

 

Hooiveld essentially scores two own goals. The second he could arguably do little about, the first he widly hacks at a Riise shot that was heading wide and clumsily deflects the ball into his own net.

 

Tues 30th Oct Leeds away (3-0 loss)

 

Rushed and clumsy clearance falls to Micheal Tonge to score one of Leeds goals.

 

Sat 30th March Chelsea home (2-1 win)

 

Hooiveld completely loses Chelsea's man threat from set pieces before slipping over and John Terry heads home unmarked.

 

Sat 6th April Reading away (2-0 win)

 

Hooiveld slightly fortunate not to concede a penalty for a clumsy (although probably just about fair) tackle on Hal Robson-Kanu.

 

Sat 13th April West Ham home (1-1 draw)

 

Hooiveld clearly didn't learn from last week or earlier in the season as he clumsily brings down a WH player on the edge of the box and Andy Carroll scores a deflected free kick.

 

 

 

TOTAL season starts: 23

 

TOTAL serious individual errors leading to goals against: 6 (Hooiveld makes a serious error leading to a goal against approx every 4 games)

 

TOTAL including serious errors not leading to goal ie penalties saved etc: 9 (Hooiveld makes a serious error other teams can punish in just under 40% of his matches)

 

NB: None of the goals in the generally awful defensive performances at West Ham (4-1 loss) or Stoke (3-3 draw) are included as there were no specific "serious errors" made by Jos.

 

 

Personal opinion - Most of these errors are from clumsy play, hacking wildly at shots or needlessly tripping clever opponents. Jos is clumsy, but not a bad defender. The clumsiness is however, exploited at this level and IMO he would be easily replaceable in the summer.

 

It is also worrying that he had a poor start, then a good spell when MP took over, but has slipped back again the last three games, two of which he has made poor errors leading to goals and one which he could easily have conceded another penalty.

 

 

Could someone compile stats as to every tackle/header/block that Jos has made that has stopped a goal or attack that could have lead to a goal also how many passes/headers completed/ went to one of our players.

[Olallana]

Could someone compile stats as to every tackle/header/block that Jos has made that has stopped a goal or attack that could have lead to a goal also how many passes/headers completed/ went to one of our players.

 

Dont have time but had one saturday blocking Nolan´s shot when Vaz Te walked past Fox...

[Saint Charlie]

Dont have time but had one saturday blocking Nolan´s shot when Vaz Te walked past Fox...

 

Yeah that was a decent block, Fox gets done so easily one to one like that. Otherwise he was ok ish but that piece of play was very poor.

 

Hooiveld should have been out quicker to block the cross before Nolan got to it IMO.

[Mowgli]

While there is a lot of speculative conjecture being bandied about on here as usual, I want to keep to the facts about Jos Hooiveld's performance this season, and the doubts that persist over his ability as a Premier League footballer..

 

haha. I suspect you are being in tongue in cheek here and a little mischevious because you've picked on some pretty poor examples and some very selective so called facts to boot. Two penalties that were saved. Two alleged mistakes in bad losses so did not affect the result. Two in matches we won anyway so did not affect the result. And the fulham game where he was probably our most effective defender. 2 interceptions, 6 clearances, 1 blocked shot. Only gave away 1 foul the whole game. It's easy to avoid mistakes - you just don't put the tackles in. If you want facts you need to include players that go completely missing when we concede goals and look at the positive contribution as well as the negative. Players who regularly throw themselves in the way of the ball will save more goals than they give away. I notice you failed to mention the awesome block he made in the first half Saturday. A certain goal had he not blocked it.

 

Incidentally he won more aerial duels than any player on the pitch Saturday. He won more offside decisions than any other player on the pitch. 10 clearances compared to 12 in total for the rest of the back 4. And he still managed to get up the other end and get a shot on target.

[Window Cleaner]

Yeah that was a decent block, Fox gets done so easily one to one like that. Otherwise he was ok ish but that piece of play was very poor.

 

Hooiveld should have been out quicker to block the cross before Nolan got to it IMO.

 

 

In fact Fox seems to have a wholly negative influence on our play. More pressure on Jos, Morgan has to drop deep and wide half of the time to at least shepherd wide players into Fox's path cos he doesn't get close enough etc etc etc. That's why we absolutely need a new left back for next season, Shaw seems fragile and probably can only be expected to play about half of the games as yet.

[John Boy Saint]

I have been in touch with a bloke who has 250 tar torches and 300 pitchforks, he says that if I take the lot off him he will throw in a Ducking Stool for only £20!!

 

Yes Jos has had a bit of misfortune but in all honesty there have been others in the team to have made ricketts, you can't legislate for a fellow defender smashing one straight in your guts from point blank range, using a perfectly good tackle v Reading as a negative FFs! (The bloke with the pitchforks etc also does a nice line in stakes and firewood). Looking forward to the thread "£12m player fails to put in a decent freekick from the same position on 3 consecutive occaisions, in the same game, in the same half!!".

Might get into importing my own Witch Hunting Supplies myself.

 

Strange how Jos gets into the team on a regular basis and Jose is having to wait his turn....................... I might just get that Ducking Stool afterall so we can find out if Jos floats!

[Wes Tender]

In fact Fox seems to have a wholly negative influence on our play. More pressure on Jos, Morgan has to drop deep and wide half of the time to at least shepherd wide players into Fox's path cos he doesn't get close enough etc etc etc. That's why we absolutely need a new left back for next season, Shaw seems fragile and probably can only be expected to play about half of the games as yet.

 

Come on Charlie. Do a statistical assassination of Fox. You know you want to and you'd probably have more posters aggreeing with you too.

[melmacian_saint]

Don't forget the fact that we're pressing further forward, therefore putting less pressure on our CBs, Cork's presence generally improving our DM performance, a fully-fit international keeper on its was to becoming the continental-class player he once was again.

 

Hooiveld has not improved, and has remained in the team mostly because MP (and rightly so) wants to conserve the momentum. Yet, we are able to single him out for the wrong reasons.

 

I just wonder why he gets so much protection in this forum compared to many others in the squad. Even Yoshida was sentenced as not good enough before him FFS.

[JustMike]

i cant be arsed to comment on all the games you mention so, i'll just take the last 2...great tackle and never a pen vs Reading. Tackle vs Wet Spam needed to be made, I was more worried about how slow we reacted to the obvious free kick that followed.

[SNSUN]

Jos has improved, and far from hoofing it up the pitch on Saturday I thought he looked to play the ball out more than I've seen before. But I do think he isn't the answer to the centre back slot. I prefer Fonte alongside Yoshida - and questions still need to be asked about Forren. He made the bench a couple of games ago, is it Jos's form that now keeps him out, or the worry of upsetting a form team by including him that keeps him out?

 

Also, I'd like to know how many points Gazzaniga cost us earlier in the season. His fumble of Snodgrass's free kick earlier in the season still lingers in the memory. He has potential but he was thrust into the side very early while the rest of the team were still learning the Premier League ropes.

[simo]

Im sure hes made more tackles, headers and clearences that have stopped goal scoring opportunities than hes made mistakes , are you going to go into how many goals the strikers have missed?

[Saint Charlie]

Come on Charlie. Do a statistical assassination of Fox. You know you want to and you'd probably have more posters aggreeing with you too.

 

Pointless to do a Fox one seeing as we already all agree.

 

Interesting that many are happy to bury their head in the sand re Jos. Is it because he claps you at the end of the game?

[Olallana]

Pointless to do a Fox one seeing as we already all agree.

 

Interesting that many are happy to bury their head in the sand re Jos. Is it because he claps you at the end of the game?

 

So to sum that up.....having a different opinion is burying the head in sand?

[david in sweden]

Whats your point Davie? That because Barry is crap its ok for Jos to be as well? .

 

Whilst I agree that Barry is cr*p, I don't think that term applies to Jos. You used the word " clumsy " but surely you don't expect every tackle to be choreographed perfectly?

I watched the Man.City v Chelsea SF yesterday and it was more like a tennis game than football. The ref. kept out of it... OK, but some of the tackling was pretty hairy - wasn't it ?!

I've never seen Jos shrink from a tackle....he may have missed a few, but he's surely not alone in that respect. Name me a CB who wins every tackle neatly and cleanly!

 

As we were talking stats. I can't believe that Jos is the worst of our CB's when it comes to interceptions / tackles - he's a bit gangly and it does look untidy - but he's pretty effective.

 

A lot of comments about the OG's he's been " credited " with, but I recall that Michael Svensson (one of the best CB's in the last 20 years) also conceded a fair few OGs in the rough / tumble of the six yard box.....

 

the O.G v. Newcastle was a travesty. The ball fell to Fox, who blasted a clearance into Jos' back from 6 feet away..(and it rebounded into the net)..blame Fox not Jos.