SAINTS keen on stadium expansion

[angelman]

With FFP rules, the benefits of increasing income may lead to more and more thinking of building new stands/expanding. 10k seats will bring in a POTENTIAL extra, say, £5.5m per season in ticket sales alone.

 

What would be more useful is safe standing. Does anyone know whether this would allow more people, or are things going to be so restricted that there would be no increase in capacity? Surely that is a much more sensible way of going about things.

[angelman]

It's only a few minutes, what's the rush?

 

It's a first world problem - I don't like queuing.

[stevegrant]

Why have Wolves built a new stand?

You'd have to ask them. Spunked a hell of a lot of money to increase the capacity by 2,000, on a stand that they now never fill because they've been relegated twice since it opened.

 

Why have Brighton added 8,000 seats to the Amex?

They haven't "added" seats, they were part of the original plan for the stadium when it was first built. They had to get it open as soon as possible because of the obvious restrictions at the Withdean. It's the same with the original plans for the new White Hart Lane, build most of the stadium, get it open and then finish it off in the following year.

 

It's very easy to sit there and say "we should expand the ground", but you're not the one having to finance it. The cost of finance for something that significant won't be cheap, it's not like a bank will give the club a mortgage at a nice 2.99% fixed rate like they would for you and I buying a house.

 

If we take the example from 2003 where it would have cost £30m, that's not even the "true" cost once interest and other charges are factored in, the security required on that finance would be onerous because the constructed assets wouldn't be worth as much as we were paying for them (like when you buy a new car, as soon as you drive it off the forecourt it depreciates in value heavily - how much would SMS be worth if we were to sell the land today? "**** all compared to what we paid for it" is the answer), and of course the likelihood of it ever paying for itself over time.

[Professor]

It could be that the known stadium capacity deters some potential customers from attending. Someone considering a casual attendance may find that the unfilled seats are isolated singles scattered around even though they may add up to a lot of seats. There can be several singles in the same row, despite the attempt of the ticketing system to fill seats in a logical order. Many people do not want to go to a game and not be with the person or people they came with. An expansion may well create a greater demand but it is a risk and may be difficult to assess in advance to make a case for the substantial spend involved. When Brighton were at Withdean they had a capacity of about 7,000 - 9,000, but at the Amex they have something like 25,000 capacity and it is nearly full every time. It would be hard for the club to measure any untapped resource of Saints' fans who would go to more games if the stadium was larger but wasn't it something like 44,000 Saints fans who went to Wembley for the JPT final.

[Sour Mash]

It could be that the known stadium capacity deters some potential customers from attending. Someone considering a casual attendance may find that the unfilled seats are isolated singles scattered around even though they may add up to a lot of seats. There can be several singles in the same row, despite the attempt of the ticketing system to fill seats in a logical order. Many people do not want to go to a game and not be with the person or people they came with. An expansion may well create a greater demand but it is a risk and may be difficult to assess in advance to make a case for the substantial spend involved. When Brighton were at Withdean they had a capacity of about 7,000 - 9,000, but at the Amex they have something like 25,000 capacity and it is nearly full every time. It would be hard for the club to measure any untapped resource of Saints' fans who would go to more games if the stadium was larger but wasn't it something like 44,000 Saints fans who went to Wembley for the JPT final.

Which games are sold out apart from single seats? The last two home? Games there has been plenty of rows available.

 

We may have taken 40k+ to Wembley, but so have Millwall and Luton, should they expand their grounds because of that?

Edited 18 September, 2014 by Sour Mash

[Patrick Bateman]

It could be that the known stadium capacity deters some potential customers from attending. Someone considering a casual attendance may find that the unfilled seats are isolated singles scattered around even though they may add up to a lot of seats. There can be several singles in the same row, despite the attempt of the ticketing system to fill seats in a logical order. Many people do not want to go to a game and not be with the person or people they came with. An expansion may well create a greater demand but it is a risk and may be difficult to assess in advance to make a case for the substantial spend involved. When Brighton were at Withdean they had a capacity of about 7,000 - 9,000, but at the Amex they have something like 25,000 capacity and it is nearly full every time. It would be hard for the club to measure any untapped resource of Saints' fans who would go to more games if the stadium was larger but wasn't it something like 44,000 Saints fans who went to Wembley for the JPT final.

 

 

Because it was a family day out for many people who never actually go to a game, ever. I know many who went who never go to St Marys.

[slickmick]

Why have Wolves built a new stand?

 

Why have Brighton added 8,000 seats to the Amex?

 

etc etc

 

Football is long term, if Saints built a new tier on the Kingsland it would still be used in 20 or 30 years time.

 

 

Your question gets answered with a very sensible explanation, then you try desperately to prove your point from any angle you can. Just accept that know one agrees with you for a good reason.

[Patrick Bateman]

I'll refer you to the same thing...

 

Your point has been answered. Now please present me with a compelling business case for an expansion?

 

Based on the data available to me here, a 14 year pay back on an additional 10,000 seats isn't compelling.

[Matthew Le God]

Your point has been answered. Now please present me with a compelling business case for an expansion?

 

Based on the data available to me here, a 14 year pay back on an additional 10,000 seats isn't compelling.

 

Football is a long term business. It might be a 14 year payback, but so what? Higher income in those 14 years will help will FFP and allow Saints to spend more money elsewhere. Stadium improvements are exempt from the FFP regulations.

 

1) Will Southampton FC still exist in 14, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100 years time?

 

2) Will Southampton still likely be at St Mary's in 14, 20, 30, 40 years time?

 

3) Does having a higher gate income help in an age of FFP?

 

4) Would having a larger stadium and averages help grow the fan-base as more people can watch the big games they want to see?

 

5) Would the club likely see a rise in other revenue on top of ticket sales?

Edited 18 September, 2014 by Matthew Le God

[Goatboy]

Football is a long term business. It might be a 14 year payback, but so what? Higher income in those 14 years will help will FFP and allow Saints to spend more money elsewhere. Stadium improvements are exempt from the FFP regulations.

 

1) Will Southampton FC still exist in 14, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100 years time?

 

2) Will Southampton still likely be at St Mary's in 14, 20, 30, 40 years time?

 

3) Does having a higher gate receipt help in an age of FFP?

 

4) Would having a larger stadium and averages help grow the fan-base as more people can watch the big games they want to see?

 

5) Would the club likely see a rise in other revenue on top of ticket sales?

 

Would there be an echo at some of the less glamorous fixtures?

[Matthew Le God]

Would there be an echo at some of the less glamorous fixtures?

 

You could make the new upper tier unavailable for season ticket holders and only use it as an overflow when there is a game with more demand.

[The Kraken]

Dear God. MLG and his band still not grasping it and still banging the expansion drum despite the chairman saying it isn't happening soon. Only on SWF.

[Patrick Bateman]

Football is a long term business. It might be a 14 year payback, but so what? Higher income in those 14 years will help will FFP and allow Saints to spend more money elsewhere. Stadium improvements are exempt from the FFP regulations.

 

1) Will Southampton FC still exist in 14, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100 years time?

 

Not if they have to take out a £30m loan to build 10,000 seats and that loan gets recalled by the bank because they want their money back and we go into admin ...

If we sell our players and don't get so lucky with the next lot or we get a load of injuries and get relegated, doesn't look so smart then either ...

 

Bottom line; If we are selling out the stadium, week-in, week-out for a couple of seasons, then yes, but we're not. We're way off.

[Patrick Bateman]

You could make the new upper tier unavailable for season ticket holders and only use it as an overflow when there is a game with more demand.

 

How will that atmosphere sound for the other games then? Brilliant

 

Go and have a glass of rose, light some candles and have a bath.

[Matthew Le God]

Would there be an echo at some of the less glamorous fixtures?

 

You could make the new upper tier unavailable for season ticket holders and only use it as an overflow when there is a game with more demand.

How will that atmosphere sound for the other games then? Brilliant

 

If the 4 original stands had 30k people in them vs West Brom for example, why would it matter atmosphere wise if a new Kingsland upper tier was empty? I doubt you'd really notice.

 

When Man Utd etc come to town you sell the lower tier first and then open blocks in the new upper tier as an overflow.

Edited 18 September, 2014 by Matthew Le God

[Whitey Grandad]

Not if they have to take out a £30m loan to build 10,000 seats and that loan gets recalled by the bank because they want their money back and we go into admin ...

If we sell our players and don't get so lucky with the next lot or we get a load of injuries and get relegated, doesn't look so smart then either ...

 

Bottom line; If we are selling out the stadium, week-in, week-out for a couple of seasons, then yes, but we're not. We're way off.

 

We're not selling out because it's full. With all-seater ticketed stadiums there will never be queues of people locked outside once the stadium's full.

 

How will that atmosphere sound for the other games then? Brilliant

 

Er... much the same as it does now? To be honest I don't think the people counting the takings care too much about the atmosphere anyway.

[Patrick Bateman]

We're not selling out because it's full. With all-seater ticketed stadiums there will never be queues of people locked outside once the stadium's full.

 

 

 

Er... much the same as it does now? To be honest I don't think the people counting the takings care too much about the atmosphere anyway.

 

Jesus. I've read it all now!

[Sour Mash]

We're not selling out because it's full. With all-seater ticketed stadiums there will never be queues of people locked outside once the stadium's full.

That doesn't make sense.

[Whitey Grandad]

That doesn't make sense.

 

Yes, it may appear a bit esoteric. There are a number of reasons why not all the seats are sold, some of which have been listed above. There comes a point near the date of the match when there are a lot of single seats left. These are difficult to sell. Suppose there are a couple of thousand unsold tickets on match day morning, who is going to travel to the ground in the hope of getting one? This is a problem with all-seater ticket-only games, you can't just cram the last few thousand in at the back.

[Sour Mash]

Yes, it may appear a bit esoteric. There are a number of reasons why not all the seats are sold, some of which have been listed above. There comes a point near the date of the match when there are a lot of single seats left. These are difficult to sell. Suppose there are a couple of thousand unsold tickets on match day morning, who is going to travel to the ground in the hope of getting one? This is a problem with all-seater ticket-only games, you can't just cram the last few thousand in at the back.

Which games are you talking about here? Take the last two home league matches, there have been rows of empty seats available. I'm not sure which games you're referring to, it doesn't apply to any Saints home games.

[Whitey Grandad]

Which games are you talking about here? Take the last two home league matches, there have been rows of empty seats available. I'm not sure which games you're referring to, it doesn't apply to any Saints home games.

 

Not many against Newcastle, just a few up in the top corner of the Chapel that I could see.

[slickmick]

Not many against Newcastle, just a few up in the top corner of the Chapel that I could see.

 

About 3000 few.

[Horley CTFC Saint]

I wish they'd extend the away stadiums so I could get tickets for league matches

[Turkish]

About 3000 few.

 

Exactly, 3,000 empty seats. If anyone seriously thinks this was 3,000 individual seats all over the ground without any more than two together anywhere they are as mental as MLG.

 

What we need to do is spend £30m to build 10,000 extra seats and sell every seat for £15. They would generate us £630k a a match and £30m of debt when 29,000 at £35 generates us £1.015m a match and no debt. Something about the German model, flexible pricing, FFP, and all that bol*ocks.

Edited 18 September, 2014 by Turkish

[Lorne Malvo]

[Sour Mash]

Not many against Newcastle, just a few up in the top corner of the Chapel that I could see.

Right, so which games are we talking about?

[ericb]

Jesus. I've read it all now!

 

I can almost see you punching the screen in anger there mate

 

For what it's worth a new station wouldn't make a jot of difference to me and i travel from london every game by train. Mainly because central is a good point to go for a beer with my mates before heading down.

 

As for expansion i'm probably on my own here in preferring to keep it the same whatever (though i'd prefer more character) just because those huge cavernous bowls we visit away are horrible examples of how modern football has sterilised the game just to get a few more part timers in that want to sit on their hands and be entertained.

 

Mind you the one "expansion" i'd love would be safe standing, but i don't believe for a minute that's going to happen for a good ten years or more yet, if it even does at all.

[Turkish]

Still think it's a bit black and white to just look at the financial return of ticket sales. Same way with high prices you might get people coming in the top flight, but you don't create the same loyal fans. With affordable tickets and football open to all, people will come and support the club during tough times too, and clubs need that over long periods.

 

Bigger stadium and cheaper tickets will help the team, it would help attract new players, show more ambition. How else do you become a bigger club? If we're in the top flight a decade or more, then the money coming in will be insane, so why not go to 40,000. Let more kids in, create new fans, make sure people are coming to live football and supporting saints rather than watching at home supporting chelsea or man utd.

 

So what exactly do you think the owners will look at Adrian? Do you really think private owners will saddle themselves with £30m worth of debt to be worse off week in week out and eventually have to try and sell their assets with that debt on the hope That 2 year old Sebastian from Alresford and other a like him become a season ticket holders in 2036?

 

The lovely ideology of money doesn't matter let's find the fans of 2030 by letting them in for nowt now doesn't really work in real life now does it, otherwise put 11+ tickets wouldn't be amongst the dearest in the country.

[suewhistle]

I agree, and I suspect that the management probably appreciate this too. They must have statistics on the age profile of supporters, and no doubt would like to ensure that potential adult supporters don't drop off during their teenage/student years when money is more of an issue. If people are watching on TV why not watch a top team rather than your local side? It's visits to a live game that seal loyalties.

 

It would be interesting to know if there are any other factors in the club's number crunching. Would a season or two in Europe make a difference, promising the extra capacity if the ground were to be used for a tournament, FFP shenanigans on the balance sheet? It would, after all, be a capital outlay with rather longer term implications than a new mid-fielder.

 

So, it's not as clear-cut as some make out. After a reasonable start it will be interesting to see if the crowds pick up. I'm glad I've got a season ticket as it could end up a bit of a pain to get tickets for individual matches. I've done it in the past, but it wouldn't take much less commitment to take the attitude, 'blow it, I'll watch something down the pub'.

[Lighthouse]

So what exactly do you think the owners will look at Adrian? Do you really think private owners will saddle themselves with £30m worth of debt to be worse off week in week out and eventually have to try and sell their assets with that debt on the hope That 2 year old Sebastian from Alresford and other a like him become a season ticket holders in 2036?

 

The lovely ideology of money doesn't matter let's find the fans of 2030 by letting them in for nowt now doesn't really work in real life now does it, otherwise put 11+ tickets wouldn't be amongst the dearest in the country.

 

It's an investment though. If you spend £30m on 10,000 seats the stadium is worth a whole lot more and generating more income in the process.

 

FWIW I don't think the stadium will be or particularly needs to be expanded but there is some economic sense to it. It's basically the same money we've p*ssed up the wall on Osvaldo and Gaston, except those two are no longer assets, don't generate any income and are basically worth f**k all.

 

Your missing (or pretending to miss I can never tell) the point on £15 safe standing tickets too. Without seats you can pretty much get double the number of people into a stand, minus a few rows of barraging to stop a crush from occurring. Twice as many people at half the price, that's the whole point of it.

Edited 18 September, 2014 by Lighthouse

[Bearsy]

Still think smaller fans would be a more cost effective solution.

[Barry the Badger]

If the 4 original stands had 30k people in them vs West Brom for example, why would it matter atmosphere wise if a new Kingsland upper tier was empty? I doubt you'd really notice.

 

When Man Utd etc come to town you sell the lower tier first and then open blocks in the new upper tier as an overflow.

 

But it does make a difference. A jam packed smaller stadium always produces a better atmosphere than a less full but larger one.

 

When Wembley only opens the bottom tiers for lesser cup finals or England games, it should be rocking because there's still 45000 people there, but it just feels empty and soul-less.

 

In League 1, St Mary's with 17'000 people in it felt awful, but 10'000 people packed in at Leyton Orient was amazing.

[Goatboy]

Not many against Newcastle, just a few up in the top corner of the Chapel that I could see.

 

There were 12 seats together in my row free. I must stink.

[Whitey Grandad]

There were 12 seats together in my row free. I must stink.

 

They may have been sold but couldn't turn up.

 

 

Or maybe you do in fact stink.

[stug76]

As an growing business you dont wait until you are running at full capacity before you expand. If the signs are there that we could get in excess of 30k for normal games along with an expected 35 -40k for the bigger games we should expand. We arent that far away from that imo. Add to this the extra match day revenues, the long term benefits of supporter loyalty, the kudos of a larger stadium, potentially greater corporste revenues etc its not quite as daft as some are making out.

[Goatboy]

They may have been sold but couldn't turn up.

 

 

Or maybe you do in fact stink.

 

They are free for most games so I'm beginning to think it must be me. Maybe I should change my matchday outfit.

[tedmaul]

They are free for most games so I'm beginning to think it must be me. Maybe I should change my matchday outfit.

 

That outfit would certainly scare the kids away ... And some adults too perhaps

[stevegrant]

It's an investment though. If you spend £30m on 10,000 seats the stadium is worth a whole lot more and generating more income in the process.

It's only generating more income if the seats are sold. We're not selling the ones in the current ground at the moment despite having just had our best season in nearly 30 years, and even last season the Man United game - usually the fastest-selling home game of the season, also doubling up as the last home game of the season - went to general sale.

 

The stadium would be worth about the same as it was before - not much. It's a revenue-generating property, obviously, but only as a football stadium (or a sports stadium if you want to make it a bit more varying and generic) with a club able to attract 30,000 supporters on a regular basis. If Southampton Football Club wanted/needed to sell St Mary's, there's not a great deal of value in its current form - SFC is the only club in the area able to attract anything greater than 1500 fans, and even Eastleigh's support seems to be something of a novelty value - and it's not exactly prime real estate for a property developer. it's realisable value is probably no greater than what we sold The Dell to Barratt Homes for.

[CB Fry]

Exactly, 3,000 empty seats. If anyone seriously thinks this was 3,000 individual seats all over the ground without any more than two together anywhere they are as mental as MLG.

 

What we need to do is spend £30m to build 10,000 extra seats and sell every seat for £15. They would generate us £630k a a match and £30m of debt when 29,000 at £35 generates us £1.015m a match and no debt. Something about the German model, flexible pricing, FFP, and all that bol*ocks.

Yeah but it's an investment or something.

[StDunko]

Still think smaller fans would be a more cost effective solution.

 

If people were just prepared to sit on another fan's lap, then St Mary's would hold 64,000 already!

[Redslo]

If people were just prepared to sit on another fan's lap, then St Mary's would hold 64,000 already!

 

Only half of them need to be willing to sit on someone's lap. The other half just need to be willing to let someone sit on their lap. Even if we could only find 16000 people in each category that would still up the capacity to 48000.

[Whitey Grandad]

If people were just prepared to sit on another fan's lap, then St Mary's would hold 64,000 already!

 

But where would I put my Thermos flask?

[suewhistle]

:-)

[Saint IQ]

I see the 'we'd sell out if every game was £15' bridage are at it again already

 

I think if we had a 40k capacity, We'd get 38-40k regularly IF Games were priced as follows

 

Cat A- £35-45 Adults £25-35 11-18 year olds

Cat B £20-30 Adults £15-25 11-18 year olds

Cat C £15-25 Adults £10-20 11-18 year olds

 

Varied pricing from lowest-highest= family end up to premium ends

Edited 19 September, 2014 by Saint IQ

[Whitey Grandad]

I think if we had a 40k capacity, We'd get 38-40k regularly IF Games were priced as follows

 

Cat A- £35-45 Adults £25-35 11-18 year olds

Cat B £20-30 Adults £15-25 11-18 year olds

Cat C £15-25 Adults £10-20 11-18 year olds

 

Varied pricing from lowest-highest= family end up to premium ends

 

I think so too, but whether that would increase the gate revenue is the big question. Have you costed it?

[Lighthouse]

It's only generating more income if the seats are sold. We're not selling the ones in the current ground at the moment despite having just had our best season in nearly 30 years, and even last season the Man United game - usually the fastest-selling home game of the season, also doubling up as the last home game of the season - went to general sale.

 

The stadium would be worth about the same as it was before - not much. It's a revenue-generating property, obviously, but only as a football stadium (or a sports stadium if you want to make it a bit more varying and generic) with a club able to attract 30,000 supporters on a regular basis. If Southampton Football Club wanted/needed to sell St Mary's, there's not a great deal of value in its current form - SFC is the only club in the area able to attract anything greater than 1500 fans, and even Eastleigh's support seems to be something of a novelty value - and it's not exactly prime real estate for a property developer. it's realisable value is probably no greater than what we sold The Dell to Barratt Homes for.

 

Any other day of the year Man Utd probably would have sold out and usually does, unless I'm very much mistaken. However it was the last day if the season between the teams guaranteed to finish 7th and 8th regardless if the result. As a result nobody have a hoot about the result and fewer people were tempted to shell out £40 to watch what was basically a meaningless friendly.

 

I basically agree with you in principal. We could sell out a 40,000 a few days a season with the right pricing. However those in the know with all the financial figures have clearly decided we wouldn't sell enough extra tickets to make it financially viable.

 

It's an asset in the sense that if KL wanted rid of the club it would be worth more. Obviously nobody is going to buy the stadium separate from the club. That's why a billionaire businessman bought Saints and nobody wanted Pompey except a fake Sheikh and a dodgy Russian arms dealer. We had assets worth buying and investing in. They didn't.

[Wurzel]

There's one thing none of us know except those in possession of club's data, how many different casual fans attend and how often.

Keeping figures simple let's say for arguments sake a 30k crowd consists of 20k ST holders 5k regulars who attend all games but for whatever reason won't/can't buy an ST and 5K "casuals". How many games do those casuals attend per season?. If it was just one game each per season then that's 95k different casual fans over the season. If it's (more realistically) 5 games per season on average that's 19k casual fans.

Those casuals are the ones the club should be aiming at if they want to increase attendances. Increase the casual fans average attendance from 5 games to just 8 per season and suddenly the stadium isn't big enough.

[Turkish]

I think if we had a 40k capacity, We'd get 38-40k regularly IF Games were priced as follows

 

Cat A- £35-45 Adults £25-35 11-18 year olds

Cat B £20-30 Adults £15-25 11-18 year olds

Cat C £15-25 Adults £10-20 11-18 year olds

 

Varied pricing from lowest-highest= family end up to premium ends

 

Why we spend £30m expanding the stadium and then reduce the price to fill it?

[whelk]

Why we spend £30m expanding the stadium and then reduce the price to fill it?

 

Hot dog sales

[Matthew Le God]

I think if we had a 40k capacity, We'd get 38-40k regularly IF Games were priced as follows

 

Cat A- £35-45 Adults £25-35 11-18 year olds

Cat B £20-30 Adults £15-25 11-18 year olds

Cat C £15-25 Adults £10-20 11-18 year olds

 

Varied pricing from lowest-highest= family end up to premium ends

 

Why we spend £30m expanding the stadium and then reduce the price to fill it?

 

West Ham are effectively doing similar in order to fill the Olympic stadium. It helps increase the fan-base, raise the profile of the club and makes the club more appealing for sponsors.

 

Okay, West Ham have a bigger fan base than us, but do you really think it is 32,000 stadium vs 54,000 stadium bigger?

Edited 19 September, 2014 by Matthew Le God