EU referendum

[Nolan]

I put it to you that if one (possibly rogue) poll can result in Sterling losing 1.57% of its value in a afternoon, then this is a sign of 'things to come' should we actualy vote to leave the EU. By the way, HSBC are predicting that Sterling may fall 20% on a pro Brexit vote. http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-brexit-hsbc-idUKKCN0VX0QJ

 

But this is not just a matter of for currency exchanges of course, those reading this who have invested in stocks and shares might want to keep a very close eye on developments because this could become bloody before too long. This is not Project Fear - this is project 'Take Care of Yourself'.

And that value is still higher than it says earlier in the year. Its what happens with a fluctuating currency.

[buctootim]

Cause it's all about you isn't it? What a Tory attitude .

 

What happened to the economy when leaving the ERM devaulded the £ . Not what happened to your shopping bill , try and think of the rest of the country , what happened to the economy ?

 

So a transfer of wealth from the individual to corporations is a good thing? What a Tory attitude.

[Lord Duckhunter]

So a transfer of wealth from the individual to corporations is a good thing? What a Tory attitude.

 

Not at all.

 

Leaving the ERM against the wishes of the EU cheerleaders , produced a boom in jobs . Jobs taken by the " have nots " . The same "have nots " who will give Remain a good kicking in labour areas on Independence Day . Middle class Tory lites like yourself may win the day because all your interested in is yourself and how it may cost you a couple of quid . But the poorest will be the ones to suffer

[buctootim]

Not at all.

 

Leaving the ERM against the wishes of the EU cheerleaders , produced a boom in jobs . Jobs taken by the " have nots " . The same "have nots " who will give Remain a good kicking in labour areas on Independence Day . Middle class Tory lites like yourself may win the day because all your interested in is yourself and how it may cost you a couple of quid . But the poorest will be the ones to suffer

 

Is that revisonism or lack of knowledge? There was a recession in the early 1990s caused by sky high interest rates which were made necessary by Soros and others betting against the pound. It was the reduction in interest rates from 14.5% which caused the boom not the exchange rate

Edited 11 June, 2016 by buctootim

[Lord Duckhunter]

Is that revisonism or lack of knowledge? There was a recession in the early 1990s caused by sky high interest rates which were made necessary by Soros and others betting against the pound. It was the reduction in interest rates from 14.5% which caused the boom not the exchange rate which didnt actually change very much.

 

Because of the obsession with remaining in the ERM , the government had to buy sterling & rates went up . Soros gambled that this was unsustainable , as it turned out to be . It was the perfect example of European dogma over realility . It was only when this eu lunacy was dropped that we could start our recovery .Of course they're doing the same again with the Euro at the expense of the Greeks, and other south med countries .

[buctootim]

Because of the obsession with remaining in the ERM , the government had to buy sterling & rates went up . Soros gambled that this was unsustainable , as it turned out to be . It was the perfect example of European dogma over realility . It was only when this eu lunacy was dropped that we could start our recovery .Of course they're doing the same again with the Euro at the expense of the Greeks, and other south med countries .

 

Dont disagree with most of that. I dont think you can have a single exchange rate across countries unless you have full fiscal union - and most countries dont want that.

[Whitey Grandad]

So why is the pound still 20% stronger to the euro compared to four years ago.?

 

It isn't. It's almost exactly the same rate.

[Wes Tender]

Wes, you cannot be serious when you say that you believe that Britain would be stronger outside the EU, no matter what you might think about it as an institution. Whatever is holding us back has nothing to do with the EU.

 

Why can't I be serious? We aren't going to stop trading with the EU and we will increase our trade with the rest of the World unhampered by having to be negotiate trade deals with other countries as part of the EU. I did qualify it by saying that it would be in the longer term and perhaps there might be a small reversal in the immediate aftermath of a Brexit whilst the dust settles. And why shouldn't I also believe that the EU is holding us back? What do you think is holding us back?

[Whitey Grandad]

Why can't I be serious? We aren't going to stop trading with the EU and we will increase our trade with the rest of the World unhampered by having to be negotiate trade deals with other countries as part of the EU. I did qualify it by saying that it would be in the longer term and perhaps there might be a small reversal in the immediate aftermath of a Brexit whilst the dust settles. And why shouldn't I also believe that the EU is holding us back? What do you think is holding us back?

 

Abysmal productivity is our big problem.

 

Our trade with the EU cannot possibly get easier than it is at present if we leave, and when trading with the rest of the world we would be competing with the EU who have a much bigger clout than us.

[Wes Tender]

And that value is still higher than it says earlier in the year. Its what happens with a fluctuating currency.

 

It is a report from February. It seems to me that there has been a lot of networking between the Bilderberg elite to get the Fear Campaign up and running as soon as the Referendum was announced. Who have we had so far that is currently attending their beano in Dresden? HSBC, why yes! Airbus? Certainly. The Treasury? Surely not any connection there? Apart from an MP on the House of Commons Treasury Committee. Goldman Sachs? I can't remember whether they were part of Project Fear, but certainly vastly influential on economic matters.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/10/bilderberg-conference-charlie-skelton-blog-academic

[Wes Tender]

Abysmal productivity is our big problem.

 

Our trade with the EU cannot possibly get easier than it is at present if we leave, and when trading with the rest of the world we would be competing with the EU who have a much bigger clout than us.

 

Poor old us, eh? Not quite as good at this World Trade thing as Iceland, Norway or Switzerland, despite a glorious history of domination of World Trade in the past. The trouble with the EU's trading negotiations with the rest of the World is that they have to consider the wishes and gripes of 28 nations and the conflicts of interest that arise as a consequence. That is why they have been taking so long to finalise deals, like the one with Canada which has taken 8 years. Maybe we'll have an advantage in quickly negotiating deals with those countries that we have had a shared history with and a common cultural and linguistic background, like much of the Commonwealth for example.

[Whitey Grandad]

Poor old us, eh? Not quite as good at this World Trade thing as Iceland, Norway or Switzerland, despite a glorious history of domination of World Trade in the past. The trouble with the EU's trading negotiations with the rest of the World is that they have to consider the wishes and gripes of 28 nations and the conflicts of interest that arise as a consequence. That is why they have been taking so long to finalise deals, like the one with Canada which has taken 8 years. Maybe we'll have an advantage in quickly negotiating deals with those countries that we have had a shared history with and a common cultural and linguistic background, like much of the Commonwealth for example.

 

The Commonwealth moved on from us some time ago. Australia is now buying submarines from France. It's a big wide world out there and by far the easiest and most efficient market is the one right in our doorstep.

 

What exactly is it about the EU's trade deals that you think is lacking? How about an example, maybe something that we could be doing outside the EU that we aren't doing now. If we could be selling, we would.

[hutch]

The Commonwealth moved on from us some time ago. Australia is now buying submarines from France.

What? Even in spite of the extra special deal offered by British submarine builders with government "support" because it would bring work and prosperity to deprived areas in the UK? Shame on the British government, it should have upped the subsidy.

[CB Fry]

Poor old us, eh? Not quite as good at this World Trade thing as Iceland, Norway or Switzerland, despite a glorious history of domination of World Trade in the past. The trouble with the EU's trading negotiations with the rest of the World is that they have to consider the wishes and gripes of 28 nations and the conflicts of interest that arise as a consequence. That is why they have been taking so long to finalise deals, like the one with Canada which has taken 8 years. Maybe we'll have an advantage in quickly negotiating deals with those countries that we have had a shared history with and a common cultural and linguistic background, like much of the Commonwealth for example.

We're not going to "dominate world trade" - we're an importer nor an exporter, which is why we get the "they need us more than we need them" stuff from the Brexiteers as if our entire nation is a simply demanding rich old woman in a hat shop: "well, I'll just jolly well take my money elsewhere".

 

Read a bit about the impact on the food industry which gives a better insight into what is more likely to happen - our supermarkets packed with cheap crap chicken and beef from Thailand and the USA as our post Brexit government chuck out howwible old red tape and regulations and food standards.

 

Can't wait to see our evolution into Car Boot Britain.

[Nolan]

We're not going to "dominate world trade" - we're an importer nor an exporter, which is why we get the "they need us more than we need them" stuff from the Brexiteers as if our entire nation is a simply demanding rich old woman in a hat shop: "well, I'll just jolly well take my money elsewhere".

 

Read a bit about the impact on the food industry which gives a better insight into what is more likely to happen - our supermarkets packed with cheap crap chicken and beef from Thailand and the USA as our post Brexit government chuck out howwible old red tape and regulations and food standards.

 

Can't wait to see our evolution into Car Boot Britain.

Absolute and utter rubbish, our food had the highest standards before Europe. Our country is the only country that follows the European standards on food fervently.

 

It would be nice to see the british standard Kitemark return, something that also preceded the CE mark.

[Joesaint]

We have the 5th largest economy in the world... some people really don't give us the credit we deserve. Vote leave so we can have a democratically elected parliament to have the power to do what they need to do, and run this county, and be held accountable for how it is run. The EU is a undemocratic joke, who have made a complete mess of the eurozone and and those country's in it. Again the EU is a joke!

[aintforever]

Abysmal productivity is our big problem.

 

Our trade with the EU cannot possibly get easier than it is at present if we leave, and when trading with the rest of the world we would be competing with the EU who have a much bigger clout than us.

 

Wouldn't a lower pound actually help our manufacturing industry?

[CB Fry]

Absolute and utter rubbish, our food had the highest standards before Europe. Our country is the only country that follows the European standards on food fervently.

 

It would be nice to see the british standard Kitemark return, something that also preceded the CE mark.

Laughable. 1970s good old British food the finest finest finest in the world not like that foreign muck like Heinz Ravioli.

[Wes Tender]

We're not going to "dominate world trade" - we're an importer nor an exporter, which is why we get the "they need us more than we need them" stuff from the Brexiteers as if our entire nation is a simply demanding rich old woman in a hat shop: "well, I'll just jolly well take my money elsewhere".

 

Read a bit about the impact on the food industry which gives a better insight into what is more likely to happen - our supermarkets packed with cheap crap chicken and beef from Thailand and the USA as our post Brexit government chuck out howwible old red tape and regulations and food standards.

 

Can't wait to see our evolution into Car Boot Britain.

 

Did I say that we would dominate World trade? I think that you'll find that we're both an importer and an exporter. How come that we get all this imported food from around the World? Surely it's much more expensive because of the high tariffs placed on food imports

 

http://www.reformthecap.eu/issues/policy-instruments/tariffs

 

Ah, I see, despite the EU tariffs being so high, it is still possible to import food from around the World at lower prices than we can get lots of it from neighbouring countries. Food prices will fall post-Brexit

[scotty]

Wouldn't a lower pound actually help our manufacturing industry?

 

Yes, but it would also mean I'd have to pay more for a beer in spanish bars. Let's get some perspective here.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Wouldn't a lower pound actually help our manufacturing industry?

 

Devaluation of the currency brings with it a range of both positive and negative effects - from making a nation's imports more expensive to increasing the competitiness of its exports. For ordinary people the biggest impact is that inflation will almost certainly increase over time. This would surely hit the poorest members of society the hardest as they are traditionally less able to cope with rising prices. We import 40% of our food.

 

A devalued currency can result in “imported” inflation for countries (such as the UK) that are substantial importers. A sudden decline of 20% in the domestic currency - as HSBC predict post Brexit - may result in imported products costing 25% more since a 20% decline means a 25% increase to get back to the original starting point.

 

Devaluation is a decline in a countries standard of living and is commonly seen as a reflection on poor national economic policy or outlook.

[aintforever]

Devaluation of the currency brings with it a range of both positive and negative effects - from making a nation's imports more expensive to increasing the competitiness of its exports. For ordinary people the biggest impact is that inflation will almost certainly increase over time. This would surely hit the poorest members of society the hardest as they are traditionally less able to cope with rising prices. We import 40% of our food.

 

A devalued currency can result in “imported” inflation for countries (such as the UK) that are substantial importers. A sudden decline of 20% in the domestic currency - as HSBC predict post Brexit - may result in imported products costing 25% more since a 20% decline means a 25% increase to get back to the original starting point.

 

Devaluation is a decline in a countries standard of living and is commonly seen as a reflection on poor national economic policy or outlook.

 

So despite the negatives, leaving the EU means our products become more competitive, our industry is not hampered by EUs red tape, and the government can invest the billions it send to Bussel each year in British industry.

[Whitey Grandad]

So despite the negatives, leaving the EU means our products become more competitive, our industry is not hampered by EUs red tape, and the government can invest the billions it send to Bussel each year in British industry.

 

I keep asking the question but I never get an answer. What is this red tape of which you speak? Please can I have a frinstance.

[buctootim]

I keep asking the question but I never get an answer. What is this red tape of which you speak? Please can I have a frinstance.

 

Its in the Express innit?

[Wes Tender]

I keep asking the question but I never get an answer. What is this red tape of which you speak? Please can I have a frinstance.

 

How about starting with the Monty Pythonesque transfer of the whole shooting match from Brussels to Strasbourg each month?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10565686/The-farce-of-the-EU-travelling-circus.html

 

But it isn't difficult to find other articles discussing it.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10145791/Historic-EU-budget-cut-fails-to-stop-rising-cost-of-Brussels-bureaucracy.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/503266/EU-bureaucrats-gold-plated-pensions-cost-36bn

[Whitey Grandad]

How about starting with the Monty Pythonesque transfer of the whole shooting match from Brussels to Strasbourg each month?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/10565686/The-farce-of-the-EU-travelling-circus.html

 

But it isn't difficult to find other articles discussing it.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10145791/Historic-EU-budget-cut-fails-to-stop-rising-cost-of-Brussels-bureaucracy.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/503266/EU-bureaucrats-gold-plated-pensions-cost-36bn

 

That has nothing to drink with red tape and does not hamper business in any way. I am still waiting for some examples of all this supposed red tape.

 

I see it this way: whatever your view of the EU, whatever your prejudices, whatever mantra you repeat there are only two questions that matter.

 

What do we get out of it?

Is it worth what it costs?

 

In my view the benefits outweigh the costs by a large margin.

[buctootim]

That has nothing to drink with red tape and does not hamper business in any way. I am still waiting for some examples of all this supposed red tape.

 

I see it this way: whatever your view of the EU, whatever your prejudices, whatever mantra you repeat there are only two questions that matter.

 

What do we get out of it?

Is it worth what it costs?

 

In my view the benefits outweigh the costs by a large margin.

 

Wes isnt keen on facts, they interfere with the views he wants to hold. Tell him the entire EU employs fewer people than Leeds City Council he will tell you that yes but we get to decide on how that money is spent. The fact he gets a say in Brussels expenditure but not Leeds will be irrelevant.

[John B]

Wes isnt keen on facts, they interfere with the views he wants to hold. Tell him the entire EU employs fewer people than Leeds City Council he will tell you that yes but we get to decide on how that money is spent. The fact he gets a say in Brussels expenditure but not Leeds will be irrelevant.

 

You mean something like this from IPSO MORI

 

The public have a number of significant misperceptions about the EU and how it affects life in the UK, new research by UK in a Changing Europe and Ipsos MORI shows. We get some things right, but we’re more often very wrong on some of the key issues fundamental to the debate – including immigration, Britain’s contribution to the EU budget, the amount of Child Benefit that goes abroad and investment into the UK.

Some of the key things we get wrong (and right) are:

1) EU immigrants: we massively overestimate how many EU-born people now live in the UK. On average we think EU citizens make up 15% of the total UK population (which would be around 10.5m people), when in reality it’s 5%1 (around 3.5m people). Those who intend to vote to leave overestimate EU immigration more: they think 20% of the UK population are EU immigrants, compared with the average guess of 10% among those who intend to vote “remain”.

2) Proportion of immigrants who were born in another EU country: but at the same time we underestimate the proportion of all immigrants who were born in the EU. The average person guesses that a quarter (25%) of all immigrants were born in another EU member state, when the reality is 37%2. This suggests that it’s immigration as a whole that we overestimate, rather than EU-specific immigration (as we’ve seen in previous studies).

3) Barmaid cleavages and other regulations from the EU: The EU doesn’t always get credit for some of our laws they’re responsible for – like statutory holiday (37% correctly guessed) and two year guarantees on products (21% correctly guessed). On the other hand, we’re generally pretty good at spotting more ridiculous “Euro-myths”, but still 1 in 7 of us (15%) believe at least one Euro-myth – including bans on barmaids showing too much cleavage and forcibly renaming the snack “Bombay Mix” to “Mumbai Mix” (neither of which are real EU laws3). But EU law is complex– it’s no wonder there’s confusion. A quarter (24%) of us think bananas that are “too bendy” are banned from being imported into the UK. This is a long-standing favourite used as an example of excessive EU bureaucracy - most recently re-surfacing from Boris Johnson4. But is it a Euro-myth? Yes and no: the EU does have a regulation to stop malformed bananas being imported into the UK, but it’s a stretch to say the EU’s banned “bendy” bananas.

4) How much the UK pays in: The majority of us (67%) correctly say the UK annually pays more into the EU’s budget than it gets back - but we overestimate how much we pay compared with other countries. 84% of us put Britain in the top 3 contributors to the EU’s c.€140bn annual budget (the same proportion that picks Germany as a top contributor) and nearly a quarter of us (23%) think the UK is the single top contributor to the EU. In reality, Germany paid in twice as much as us in 2014 (21% of total EU income), followed by France (16%) then Italy (12%), with the UK in fourth place (11%)5.

5) How much the UK directly gets back: the majority of us are also correct that we get less back than other large countries. Three in five correctly (58%) rank the UK as one of the lower gross recipients from the EU budget: in 2014, the UK received less than other Western European countries like Germany, Italy, Spain and France6.

6) Child Benefit: we massively overestimate the proportion of Child Benefit awards given to families in other European countries. The actual proportion of UK Child Benefit awards going on children living abroad in Europe is 0.3%7, but 14% of us think that 30% of UK Child Benefit goes to children abroad and 23% of us think 13% does. This means that nearly 4 in 10 of us think the number of children in EU countries receiving Child Benefit from the UK is 40 to 100 times the actual level.

7) EU democracy: only 6 in 10 know that members of the European Parliament (MEPs) are elected by the citizens of each member state. One in five (18%) think that MEPs are not elected and a quarter (25%) say they don’t know whether they are or not.

Who our MEPs are: Unsurprisingly then, just 5% can correctly name at least one of the MEPs representing their region. This is much lower than the number who can name their local MP (41%).

9) The EU’s administration bill: we massively overestimate how much of the EU’s budget is spent on administration. The average guess is that 27% of the overall budget is spent on staff, admin and maintenance costs, when in reality it’s 6%8. If this estimate were accurate the EU would be spending €38.5bn on admin each year, instead of €8.5bn.

10) Inward investment from EU countries: we underestimate how much investment into the UK comes from EU countries. The average guess is that they contribute 30% of total investment into the UK, when it actually makes up almost half (48%). This perception gap is mirrored by an overestimation of investment from China, which people think makes up 19% of inward investment but actually only accounts for 1%9.

The Perils of Predictions

The survey also asked people to make a series of predictions around the referendum. Despite the fairly even race in the polls and the negative views towards many aspects of the EU seen in this survey, people are twice as likely to predict that we will vote to remain in the EU than to leave: 51% say that Britain will vote to remain and only 23% say we’ll vote to leave.

The public are also in line with the bookies on likely turnout levels: on average, we think the turnout will be 60%, when bookies’ odds imply a likely turnout of c63-64%.

But our predictions on the impact of a leave vote highlights the main challenge for the Remain campaign. We are pretty certain that leaving will reduce immigration (63% believe that). But while we are nearly as certain that it will also reduce investment from EU countries (57% believe that), only 25% of us think it will reduce our own living standards, with 13% thinking it will increase them and the remainder saying it will make no difference or they don’t know.

Bobby Duffy, Managing Director of Ipsos MORI Social Research Institute, said:

“The public have been calling for the “facts” to help them make up their minds on how to vote – but this survey shows that many of us are still very shaky on fundamental aspects of our relationship with the EU. This is not surprising, given that the facts on the EU are often complex and contested. In that messy and heated context, these misperceptions are more of an indicator of what’s worrying us than a careful assessment of the evidence – that’s why we’re most wrong on things like immigration, benefit payments going abroad and what the EU spends on bureaucracy.

 

But the survey also points to some key communication challenges and opportunities for the campaigns. In particular, it seems that while the Remain camp may be winning on the macro-economic case, people are not convinced this will have any impact on their own standard of living. So, despite the Remain campaign’s focus on us each being £4,300 worse off if we leave, we’re not making the connection or not believing it. “Project fear” will be much less effective if we think it’s only happening to someone else.”

Professor Anand Menon, Director of the UK in a Changing Europe Initiative and Professor of European Politics and Foreign Affairs at King's College London, said:

“There are obviously still high levels of ignorance about the EU, which is troubling so close to the referendum. However, it is not so surprising, given the lack of accurate information provided to the public, as well as the mistruths, exaggerations, and scaremongering that have taken place during this campaign. It’s now more imperative than ever that the public can be provided with as much factual information about the EU as possible before they cast their vote.”

[badgerx16]

Food prices will fall post-Brexit.

You can guarantee that ?

 

I think I'll be changing my vote:

Lower food prices, improved balance of payments, billions extra for the NHS, full employment, Boris for PM, the sun will shine every day, global warming will stop, England will win the World Cup. It'll be a bloody EUtopia. !

[solentstars]

You can guarantee that ?

 

I think I'll be changing my vote:

Lower food prices, improved balance of payments, billions extra for the NHS, full employment, Boris for PM, the sun will shine every day, global warming will stop, England will win the World Cup. It'll be a bloody EUtopia. !

lol..please stop it your useing your brain:)

[Lord Duckhunter]

lol..please stop it your useing your brain:)

 

Hopefully Brexit will mean more money for education , because our spelling is atrocious.

[John B]

Hopefully Brexit will mean more money for education , because our spelling is atrocious.

 

I know Farage is not bothered if the pound falls as he is pretty wealthy but what about you if food and oil costs say 15% more would you be happy and would you be happy if this led to inflation and higher interest rates and less disposable income to spend on more expensive imported goods.

 

I would have thought foreign investment for jobs will reduce causing unemployment presently 48% of investment is foreign apparently but the rich with large amount of savings will earn more because of the increased interest rates but not so the poor.

[buctootim]

Hopefully Brexit will mean more money for education , because our spelling is atrocious.

 

you missed out the 'w'

[Lord Duckhunter]

I know Farage is not bothered if the pound falls as he is pretty wealthy but what about you if food and oil costs say 15% more would you be happy and would you be happy if this led to inflation and higher interest rates and less disposable income to spend on more expensive imported goods.

 

I would have thought foreign investment for jobs will reduce causing unemployment presently 48% of investment is foreign apparently but the rich with large amount of savings will earn more because of the increased interest rates but not so the poor.

 

Currency fluctuations happen all the time . When the pound dropped to low levels previously , Osborne said it wasn't a problem . Sir Martin Sorrell, a leaver , complained that revenues for his company had been “ravaged” by the strong pound back in 2015 . They want it both ways , then blame Brexit . The pound will always be ok because the euro is a basket case . Even after Brexit it'll be attractive and hold its value

[John B]

Currency fluctuations happen all the time . When the pound dropped to low levels previously , Osborne said it wasn't a problem . Sir Martin Sorrell, a leaver , complained that revenues for his company had been “ravaged” by the strong pound back in 2015 . They want it both ways , then blame Brexit . The pound will always be ok because the euro is a basket case . Even after Brexit it'll be attractive and hold its value

 

So why do the IMF Treasury BOE OECD IMF IFS and most economists think you are wrong

 

I do agree there are currency fluctuations but what is being talked about is a run on Sterling wonder how that will affect our transfer dealings with the rest of the world and the cost of going to Euro League games

 

But we see what happens only two weeks to go and then some football interesting post about RK who comes out a bit of a lazy git unlike Poch who went up to Manchester I believe to give support to the youngsters when he was here

[Lord Duckhunter]

So why do the IMF Treasury BOE OECD IMF IFS and most economists think you are wrong

 

I do agree there are currency fluctuations but what is being talked about is a run on Sterling wonder how that will affect our transfer dealings with the rest of the world and the cost of going to Euro League games

 

But we see what happens only two weeks to go and then some football interesting post about RK who comes out a bit of a lazy git unlike Poch who went up to Manchester I believe to give support to the youngsters when he was here

 

I don't think there will be a run on sterling . Once everybody calms down and realises there will be a managed withdrawal , the pound will stabilise . The Greeks are going to default again , the dollar won't look so attractive while there remains the chance of a Trump presidency

[Wes Tender]

Wes isnt keen on facts, they interfere with the views he wants to hold. Tell him the entire EU employs fewer people than Leeds City Council he will tell you that yes but we get to decide on how that money is spent. The fact he gets a say in Brussels expenditure but not Leeds will be irrelevant.

 

You're obviously not keen on facts either, as what you say is certainly not a fact. As usual, there is the lies, damned lies and statistics aspect to the information regarding the number of bureaucrats employed by the EU.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2535295/EU-bureaucrats-outnumber-British-army-two-to-one-say-campaigners.html

 

That article is nearly 8 years old and I'd hazard a guess that the number of soldiers has decreased and the number of EU bureaucrats has gone up since then. Of course, even then taking your claim that Leeds City Council employs more people to run it than the EU does is also probably flawed, because the number of employees counted as public sector employees usually includes Teachers, Social Workers and many other jobs other than just the pen-pushers.

 

Sorry that the response I gave is not the one you predicted.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I don't think there will be a run on sterling . Once everybody calms down and realises there will be a managed withdrawal , the pound will stabilise . The Greeks are going to default again , the dollar won't look so attractive while there remains the chance of a Trump presidency

 

Well you might be right I suppose. However, it would seem that the Govenor of the Bank of England for some reason does not fully share your 'everything will be all right' approach to the matter of currency stabilty in a post Bretix world. But what does he know eh?

 

A vote to leave the EU could have material economic effects -- on the exchange rate, on demand and on the economy's supply potential,"

[Lord Duckhunter]

Well you might be right I suppose. However, it would seem that the Govenor of the Bank of England for some reason does not fully share your 'everything will be all right' approach to the matter of currency stabilty in a post Bretix world. But what does he know eh?

 

You mean the Mark Carney, appointed by George Osborne . The Mark Carney who worked for Goldman Sachs . Goldman Sachs , who are funding BSE, who made $500 advising the EU on Greeces suitability to join the euro, who were fined $5 billion for mid selling sub prime mortgages and advised the UK government on its post office sale. So bearing in mind that any half bake can see Greece shouldn't have joined the euro, the sub prime crisis cost us all & the post office was vastly undervalued, I wouldn't trust a Goldman Sachs man to run a bath , particularly when you look at who he had to grease up to in order to keep his job

Edited 12 June, 2016 by Lord Duckhunter

[CB Fry]

You mean the Mark Carney, appointed by George Osborne . The Mark Carney who worked for Goldman Sachs . Goldman Sachs , who are funding BSE, who made $500 advising the EU on Greeces suitability to join the euro, who were fined $5 billion for mid selling sub prime mortgages and advised the UK government on its post office sale. So bearing in mind that any half bake can see Greece shouldn't have joined the euro, the sub prime crisis cost us all & the post office was vastly undervalued, I wouldn't trust a Goldman Sachs man to run a bath , particularly when you look at who he had to grease up to in order to keep his job

And Godman Sachs will have no business and make no money and have no influence at all in a post Brexit Britain.

 

In fact, the minute a Leave vote is announced, Goldman Sachs and every person that works for them will run away into the sunset like Skeletor in a He-Man cartoon, never to be seen again.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

You mean the Mark Carney, appointed by George Osborne . The Mark Carney who worked for Goldman Sachs . Goldman Sachs , who are funding BSE, who made $500 advising the EU on Greeces suitability to join the euro, who were fined $5 billion for mid selling sub prime mortgages and advised the UK government on its post office sale. So bearing in mind that any half bake can see Greece shouldn't have joined the euro, the sub prime crisis cost us all & the post office was vastly undervalued, I wouldn't trust a Goldman Sachs man to run a bath , particularly when you look at who he had to grease up to in order to keep his job

 

^ Standardised Remain Reply Tactic No 1

 

If reputable evidence emerges that is inconvient to the Bretix case then attack the source. It is of no importance if the attack is fair or even makes any sense.

Edited 13 June, 2016 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[buctootim]

You're obviously not keen on facts either, as what you say is certainly not a fact. As usual, there is the lies, damned lies and statistics aspect to the information regarding the number of bureaucrats employed by the EU.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/2535295/EU-bureaucrats-outnumber-British-army-two-to-one-say-campaigners.html

 

That article is nearly 8 years old and I'd hazard a guess that the number of soldiers has decreased and the number of EU bureaucrats has gone up since then. Of course, even then taking your claim that Leeds City Council employs more people to run it than the EU does is also probably flawed, because the number of employees counted as public sector employees usually includes Teachers, Social Workers and many other jobs other than just the pen-pushers.

 

Sorry that the response I gave is not the one you predicted.

 

Well done Wes. You posted up a link to an 8 year old newspaper article about a report which is no longer available. Makes it hard to fact check, which presumably is the intention. You are certainly on top of this 'fact' game.

 

As that article says the 32,000 number refers to the EU civil servants working in the commission - the nasty pen pushers who spend all our money on gold plated pensions. For comparison Britain's civil service employs 402,000 while our 'share' of EU bureaucrats based on population is c6,400. I wonder where the most potential for waste is?

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/publicsectorpersonnel/bulletins/civilservicestatistics/2015-10-08

Edited 13 June, 2016 by buctootim

[Wes Tender]

Well done Wes. You posted up a link to an 8 year old newspaper article about a report which is no longer available. Makes it hard to fact check, which presumably is the intention. You are certainly on top of this 'fact' game.

 

As that article says the 32,000 number refers to the EU civil servants working in the commission - the nasty pen pushers who spend all our money on gold plated pensions. For comparison Britain's civil service employs 402,000 while our 'share' of EU bureaucrats based on population is c6,400. I wonder where the most potential for waste is?

 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/publicsectorpersonnel/bulletins/civilservicestatistics/2015-10-08

 

I did state at the outset that article was nearly 8 years old. But as the article says, the EU deliberately make it hard to fact check how many bureaucrats they employ. You can employ semantics if you like to say that the number working "in Brussels" (rather than for the EU) is 32,000, but the figure for EU bureaucrats according to that article was nearly six times higher all those years ago and is no doubt probably higher now.

 

Well done for comparing apples with oranges with your mention of the size of our own Civil Service Bureaucracy. Naturally the Civil Service numbers for a country the size of ours will be higher than that for the EU, which renders any comparison of numbers futile. The EU bureaucrats are mostly confined to administering their own legislation which is not as diverse a sphere as that of our own Civil Service, who have Ministries covering a much wider sphere such as Taxation, Education, Foreign Affairs, Trade, Home Office, Defence, etc.

 

I realise that it would be difficult to find the figures, but as you are more prepared than me to dig to find figures for the UK Civil Service staff numbers, perhaps you might be able to say how many of them are employed because of the additional bureaucracy imposed on us by the EU.

[buctootim]

I did state at the outset that article was nearly 8 years old. But as the article says, the EU deliberately make it hard to fact check how many bureaucrats they employ. You can employ semantics if you like to say that the number working "in Brussels" (rather than for the EU) is 32,000, but the figure for EU bureaucrats according to that article was nearly six times higher all those years ago and is no doubt probably higher now..

 

Still wrong Wes. I'm amazed you still haven't learned after all these years to check original source data, not newspaper reports of it. You dont appear to have read the Open Democracy piece. Here it is - they only claim EU employees are over 50,000. http://openeuropeblog.blogspot.co.uk/2007/01/how-many-people-work-for-eu.html Like the report you are - probably deliberately but perhaps through ignorance - confusing civil servants employed directly by the EC and people working for agencies providing services to the EU.

 

Its the difference between working for Whitehall and working for the 1,162 British public service providers like the National Lottery, English Heritage, BBC and the Met Office. The European equivalents are the European Medicines Agency based in London, European Environment Agency based in Copenhagen and the European Food Safety Authority based in Parma and the European Aviation Safety Authority based in Cologne. . Which of those is useless bureaucracy Wes?

 

5,358,000 people work for the British Government whilst the very worst (and almost certainly wrong) figure for the EU you could find was 50,000 in total across 28 countries. Im glad you post up your Express EU bogeyman myths. Its gives everybody an opportunity to see how vacuous and utterly intellectually bankrupt they are.

 

http://openeuropeblog.blogspot.co.uk/2007/01/how-many-people-work-for-eu.html

http://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/publicsectorpersonnel/bulletins/publicsectoremployment/2015-09-16

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cfwbuTtE5HX1Ltbm7XhxIAjFVj6oHB07KF7A8fhXloY/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0

Edited 13 June, 2016 by buctootim

[Wes Tender]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ2n7oMcSi0

 

Good to be reminded of how our political leaders have fudged their obligations to allow a referendum on these EU Treaties over so many years and how our PM can seem so discontented with the implications of the way the EU was headed all those years ago and yet so happy with how it all is now.

[Lord Duckhunter]

You've got to hand it to remain , they keep finding ways of looking more and more panicky . Donald Tusk writes in Bild . "Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also of western political civilisation in its entirety ". Lol

[buctootim]

You've got to hand it to remain , they keep finding ways of looking more and more panicky . Donald Tusk writes in Bild . "Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also of western political civilisation in its entirety ". Lol

 

The whole campaign on both sides is a charade of scare stories

[derry]

I'm surprised that there has been no comments on here about the Leaked Foreign Office telegrams. From our Ankara Embassy, proposal for 1.5m special Turkish passport holders to get visa free rights to UK. From The Hague on how co-operative the Dutch ( currently holding Presidency of the EU) are being, delaying issues that might adversely affect the referendum, until after June 23rd.

 

Immigration is the decisive subject. The scare tactics of the last month has turned the electorate off. They are just not listening. Get ready for a big two finger salute from a large proportion on 23rd Jun.

[buctootim]

I'm surprised that there has been no comments on here about the Leaked Foreign Office telegrams. From our Ankara Embassy, proposal for 1.5m special Turkish passport holders to get visa free rights to UK. From The Hague on how co-operative the Dutch ( currently holding Presidency of the EU) are being, delaying issues that might adversely affect the referendum, until after June 23rd.

 

Immigration is the decisive subject. The scare tactics of the last month has turned the electorate off. They are just not listening. Get ready for a big two finger salute from a large proportion on 23rd Jun.

 

Congratulations. You post up two scare stories for debate and then say the scare tactics have turned the electorate off. You're right.

[ScepticalStan]

Odds on remain have drifted from being an absolute lock at 1/5, 1/6 - ish two or three weeks ago, to as much as 4/9. You won't even triple your money if you bet on Brexit and you're right as that's now 7/4.