Saint Charlie Posted 12 December, 2015 Author Share Posted 12 December, 2015 Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Shane Long is no worse when one on one with the keeper than Jay Rodriguez. He is. Has never scored more than 7 PL goals in a season. Scored in 3 games last season of the 32 he featured in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 12 December, 2015 Share Posted 12 December, 2015 He is. Has never scored more than 7 PL goals in a season. Scored in 3 games last season of the 32 he featured in. Shane long is just rubbish, j rod different league. Why has long never scored more than 7? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 12 December, 2015 Share Posted 12 December, 2015 id disagree. Jrod got 17 goals in his last full season with us (and was injured for the part) long normally takes 3 seasons to score that amount jrod buried plenty when he has been through on goal Jrod got a LOT more game time and a lot more chances created for him. His finishing when one on one is poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 12 December, 2015 Share Posted 12 December, 2015 Jrod got a LOT more game time and a lot more chances created for him. His finishing when one on one is poor. Much better than longs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 12 December, 2015 Share Posted 12 December, 2015 Much better than longs I disagree, they're about the same. I've seen both scuff, miss, hit straight at the keeper...and I've also seen both actually finish them on occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 12 December, 2015 Author Share Posted 12 December, 2015 Rodriguez had numerous cracking finishes for us: Fulham, Newcastle, Spurs, Sunderland away all spring to mind plus Chelsea, Liverpool at home. Can only think of one Leicester at home PL finish from Long that I thought was tidy. Obviously scores the long shot versus Villa too. Actually...cannot believe its even a debate tbh. Long is a poor finisher hence his poor goal record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 12 December, 2015 Share Posted 12 December, 2015 Rodriguez had numerous cracking finishes for us: Fulham, Newcastle, Spurs, Sunderland away all spring to mind plus Chelsea, Liverpool at home. Can only think of one Leicester at home PL finish from Long that I thought was tidy. Obviously scores the long shot versus Villa too. Actually...cannot believe its even a debate tbh. Long is a poor finisher hence his poor goal record. Except the debate was about finishing when one on one with the keeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 12 December, 2015 Author Share Posted 12 December, 2015 Except the debate was about finishing when one on one with the keeper. Thats what those examples are! Jesus. In any case, the thread is about Long not Jay Rod! And Long has been a poor signing. Imagine if we had that £12m to spend in Jan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JxgrSaint Posted 12 December, 2015 Share Posted 12 December, 2015 I disagree, they're about the same. I've seen both scuff, miss, hit straight at the keeper...and I've also seen both actually finish them on occasion. Long's first good chance was VERY similar to J-Rod's against Fulham (without the 2 defenders in the way), which he buried rather nicely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wild-saint Posted 12 December, 2015 Share Posted 12 December, 2015 Long showing today when you need a chance taking that he isn't the man. Not good enough. tend to agree with this. A new striker to take some burden off of a Pelle is a must in january. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 12 December, 2015 Author Share Posted 12 December, 2015 tend to agree with this. A new striker to take some burden off of a Pelle is a must in january. Especially as Pelle is having injections in his knee to be able to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saints foreva Posted 12 December, 2015 Share Posted 12 December, 2015 Championship standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Shane Long is no worse when one on one with the keeper than Jay Rodriguez. - especially in the 93rd minute, against a goalie in that form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Especially as Pelle is having injections in his knee to be able to play. obviously a good reason to sell Shane Long then -- as you suggested in the OP. What do we do after January though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Rodriguez had numerous cracking finishes for us: we have to consider that it will be close to 2 years ...since Jay Rod last played at his Prem. best ...and when he returns, don't expect him to carry on where he left off. His League form before that "goal surge " wasn't so special either...tbf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 13 December, 2015 Author Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Keep the excuses for Long coming Davie...some crackers so far! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Keep the excuses for Long coming Davie...some crackers so far! but you haven't answered the question .....Charlie....what do we do for strikers ....when we sell Long (it was your suggestion.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 13 December, 2015 Author Share Posted 13 December, 2015 but you haven't answered the question .....Charlie....what do we do for strikers ....when we sell Long (it was your suggestion.) Reinvest in a different striker that the Manager rates and who is better than Long. As clearly stated in the title/OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Reinvest in a different striker that the Manager rates and who is better than Long. As clearly stated in the title/OP. Couldn't agree with you more Charlie. He's just shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Reinvest in a different striker that the Manager rates and who is better than Long. As clearly stated in the title/OP. Yes but who do you suggest for a few million quid?. Just saying 'I wants' doesn't gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 13 December, 2015 Author Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Yes but who do you suggest for a few million quid?. Just saying 'I wants' doesn't gets. Thats not for me to say, and is why we have a much lauded scouting setup. There are probably lots of players we are watching across the world who most of us have never heard of anyway so its futile naming people as I'm not privy to who we are watching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Kint Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Yes but who do you suggest for a few million quid?. Just saying 'I wants' doesn't gets. Whoever gets mentioned now though would be written off instantly. Bournemouth got Josh King on a free last summer. Is Shane Long really that much better than him? Or a Callum Wilson who cost them 2.5 million a couple of seasons ago. Watford got Ighalo on a free. Their wages combined are probably less than Long's. It seems strange to think there is no talent around in the lower leagues or abroad. That's why we have a scouting team, it's not very hard to take the top scorers from European leagues for millions, surely they should be judged on identifying these cheaper lower league players who we aren't watching week in week out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ally_uk Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 impact sub at best nowhere worth 12 Million.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Thats not for me to say, and is why we have a much lauded scouting setup. There are probably lots of players we are watching across the world who most of us have never heard of anyway so its futile naming people as I'm not privy to who we are watching. If we could, we would. You can't go advocating getting rid of a player and replacing him with somebody cheaper without offering up some names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Whoever gets mentioned now though would be written off instantly. Bournemouth got Josh King on a free last summer. Is Shane Long really that much better than him? Or a Callum Wilson who cost them 2.5 million a couple of seasons ago. Watford got Ighalo on a free. Their wages combined are probably less than Long's. It seems strange to think there is no talent around in the lower leagues or abroad. That's why we have a scouting team, it's not very hard to take the top scorers from European leagues for millions, surely they should be judged on identifying these cheaper lower league players who we aren't watching week in week out At the moment he's a much better player than Callum Wilson and will remain so for the rest of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 13 December, 2015 Author Share Posted 13 December, 2015 (edited) If we could, we would. You can't go advocating getting rid of a player and replacing him with somebody cheaper without offering up some names. Why? Also doesn't have to be cheaper, and thats not anything I have any control over obviously. Nor can I control whether we sell Long clearly. But surely that doesn't mean you cannot have an opinion or the whole Forum might as well shut down now because none of us work for the Club. We have a whole team to identify players, so why should I? They will clearly be watching player you or I have no knowledge of, so leave it to the experts. Edited 13 December, 2015 by Saint Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Why? Also doesn't have to be cheaper, and thats not anything I have any control over obviously. Nor can I control whether we sell Long clearly. But surely that doesn't mean you cannot have an opinion or the whole Forum might as well shut down now because none of us work for the Club. Of course not, we are all free to think what we like and it's a good thing that we are all different, but you have made it clear that you don't like Long but have not suggested any player who could replace him. It's easy to be critical and negative but much more difficult to be constructive. In my (limited) experience I have found these to be feminine traits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 This ridiculous thread is still rumbling on. Clear that we are selling no-one in January, and we need to keep Long AND get a new striker in (which is what is being indicated by Ronald) to make up for JRod not being available. We don't need to sell to bring in a new striker, we need to invest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 13 December, 2015 Author Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Of course not, we are all free to think what we like and it's a good thing that we are all different, but you have made it clear that you don't like Long but have not suggested any player who could replace him. It's easy to be critical and negative but much more difficult to be constructive. In my (limited) experience I have found these to be feminine traits Look at who people suggest as signings on here. Its either same names as in the press: Austin, Afobe, March etc or ludicrous fantasy like RVP on loan etc. The easy option is to throw out those same old names when the reality is the Club will be watching a vast number of strikers and we have probably heard of leas than 20% of them. Nobody mentioned Sadio Mane. Few were probably aware of Pelle and Tadic until we were linked with Koeman. So if I say lets sell Long for £8m and sign Austin for £8m its largely pointless because we might have no interest in Austin - only the Club know that and who they are considering. For what we paid for Long it is entirely possible to sign better quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 13 December, 2015 Author Share Posted 13 December, 2015 This ridiculous thread is still rumbling on. Clear that we are selling no-one in January, and we need to keep Long AND get a new striker in (which is what is being indicated by Ronald) to make up for JRod not being available. We don't need to sell to bring in a new striker, we need to invest. Jay Rod is considered a wide forward i.e Tadic/Mane competition. The reason we need a striker is because Koeman doesn't consider Long to be providing adequate competition for Pelle hence why he only plays when Pelle is suspended or not fit to play (like yesterday). If it meant having more money to spend on a better striker than Long is dispensable. In any case Jay Rod will be back training just after the window opens anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 This ridiculous thread is still rumbling on. Clear that we are selling no-one in January, and we need to keep Long AND get a new striker in (which is what is being indicated by Ronald) to make up for JRod not being available. We don't need to sell to bring in a new striker, we need to invest. But if we could get £5 million for long and buy a good striker for 10 million rather than £5 million who is better quality then be worth selling him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 In any case Jay Rod will be back training just after the window opens anyway. and totally fit and back in scoring form ..when precisely?. I'd love to see Jay Rod back ASAP, but that doesn't mean he'll pick up where he left off....2 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Look at who people suggest as signings on here. Its either same names as in the press: Austin, Afobe, March etc or ludicrous fantasy like RVP on loan etc. The easy option is to throw out those same old names when the reality is the Club will be watching a vast number of strikers and we have probably heard of leas than 20% of them. Nobody mentioned Sadio Mane. Few were probably aware of Pelle and Tadic until we were linked with Koeman. So if I say lets sell Long for £8m and sign Austin for £8m its largely pointless because we might have no interest in Austin - only the Club know that and who they are considering. For what we paid for Long it is entirely possible to sign better quality. I think you are getting hung up over the price we paid for Long, undisclosed but believed to be £12m. Don't forget that we also loaned Gastón to Hull a couple of weeks later and it is entirely possible that there was some agreement to this effect, thus offsetting part of the contract purchase price. The whole premise of this thread is that we could sell Long and replace him with somebody better and cheaper. I think that's unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyinthesky Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Long + Ramirez + Osvaldo Getting on for £40m in transfer fees plus approx. £8m a year in wages Combined re-sale value £5m? Great bit of business Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 I think Charlie's suggestion that we get rid if rubbish players and replace them with, like, much better players is a brilliant one and I for one am perplexed that Southampton Football Club have never considered this before. Well done Charlie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Long + Ramirez + Osvaldo Getting on for £40m in transfer fees plus approx. £8m a year in wages Combined re-sale value £5m? Great bit of business Any player's value will reduce to zero at the end of their contract. You win some, you lose some, but it is rare that a player will increase in value during their time at a club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 13 December, 2015 Share Posted 13 December, 2015 Long + Ramirez + Osvaldo Getting on for £40m in transfer fees plus approx. £8m a year in wages Combined re-sale value £5m? Great bit of business Why have you included Long alongside Ramirez and Osvaldo? Ramirez was bought alongside Clyne and Jay Rod. Osvaldo was bought alongside Lovren and Victor. Long was bought alongside Pelle, Bertrand, Tadic. Newsflash. Some football clubs, sometimes, buy players that don't work out. And when I say some, I mean all. All clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 14 December, 2015 Author Share Posted 14 December, 2015 I think Charlie's suggestion that we get rid if rubbish players and replace them with, like, much better players is a brilliant one and I for one am perplexed that Southampton Football Club have never considered this before. Well done Charlie. Thanks. Amazing how so many on this thread seem to disagree then, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Uwe Posted 14 December, 2015 Share Posted 14 December, 2015 Why have you included Long alongside Ramirez and Osvaldo? Ramirez was bought alongside Clyne and Jay Rod. Osvaldo was bought alongside Lovren and Victor. Long was bought alongside Pelle, Bertrand, Tadic. Newsflash. Some football clubs, sometimes, buy players that don't work out. And when I say some, I mean all. All clubs. Yes, but the problem with those three players in particular is the fact they have cost us so much money. I actually like Long being part of our squad, I think his running and the way he makes runs is actually a lot more intelligent that people give him credit for. But...if a club like ours forks out 12 million on a player, we need that player to be a first team regular and/or making significant contributions. We can't afford for them to either not play at all or be a bit part player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 14 December, 2015 Share Posted 14 December, 2015 Yes, but the problem with those three players in particular is the fact they have cost us so much money. I actually like Long being part of our squad, I think his running and the way he makes runs is actually a lot more intelligent that people give him credit for. But...if a club like ours forks out 12 million on a player, we need that player to be a first team regular and/or making significant contributions. We can't afford for them to either not play at all or be a bit part player. and that is exactly what some people on this site have said (repeatedly) about Gaston Ramirez - isn't it? but there are still fans who are convinced that he will be the team's saviour if he's brought back into the squad..despite him being ignored by 3 successive managers ...... someone has to be wrong ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 14 December, 2015 Share Posted 14 December, 2015 Yes, but the problem with those three players in particular is the fact they have cost us so much money. I actually like Long being part of our squad, I think his running and the way he makes runs is actually a lot more intelligent that people give him credit for. But...if a club like ours forks out 12 million on a player, we need that player to be a first team regular and/or making significant contributions. We can't afford for them to either not play at all or be a bit part player. £12m is very little for a prem striker nowadays, regular starter or not. The way he's been utilised suggests that big Ron sees him more as an impact sub than a regular starter, and Ron was in charge when we signed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verlaine1979 Posted 14 December, 2015 Share Posted 14 December, 2015 Isn't the heart of the issue that we promote ourselves as having an incredible, technically advanced scouting department, and yet rather than unearthing a Vardy or Arnautovic or some unknown who would represent great value for money, we ended up overpaying for a journeyman of limited talent? It's not that Long himself is a problem player (surely everyone knew exactly what he is capable of, and his contribution will have surprised no one), but that his signing undermines everyone's belief that the 'black box' is anything other than the same old collection of scouts in a room with more tv screens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 14 December, 2015 Author Share Posted 14 December, 2015 £12m is very little for a prem striker nowadays, regular starter or not. The way he's been utilised suggests that big Ron sees him more as an impact sub than a regular starter, and Ron was in charge when we signed him. Over the 4 years of his contract he will be the most costly player on our books after Ramirez. Would you not expect more than an impact player for that sort of dough? For us that is a lot of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 14 December, 2015 Share Posted 14 December, 2015 Over the 4 years of his contract he will be the most costly player on our books after Ramirez. Would you not expect more than an impact player for that sort of dough? For us that is a lot of money. Pelle's absence from the start line-up (and injections on his knee injury - OUCH !)...would suggest we won't be seeing the best from him in the near future, and whenever it is that we see JayRod back scoring goals...suggests that in the meantime, we'll get a lot of chances to evaluate / re-evalute Shane Long's value to the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 14 December, 2015 Share Posted 14 December, 2015 I wouldn't sell Long but if someone could give us our money back for Juanmi I'd be delighted. Pelle and Rodriguez injured, Ramirez frozen out and Juanmi still can't get minutes. What purpose he was signed for is beyond me. £5m that could have sorely been used elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 14 December, 2015 Share Posted 14 December, 2015 I wouldn't sell Long but if someone could give us our money back for Juanmi I'd be delighted. Pelle and Rodriguez injured' date=' Ramirez frozen out and Juanmi still can't get minutes. What purpose he was signed for is beyond me. £5m that could have sorely been used elsewhere.[/quote'] We've probably not paid much more than half of the Juanmi fee anyway, the Cedric deal was spead over 4 instalments and 18 months, Juanmi was probably of a similar ilk. It's not really the sort of sum a club like Saints should be worrying overly about anyway. What we should be concerned about was the hike in agents fees for less transfer dealings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lallana's Left Peg Posted 14 December, 2015 Share Posted 14 December, 2015 We've probably not paid much more than half of the Juanmi fee anyway, the Cedric deal was spead over 4 instalments and 18 months, Juanmi was probably of a similar ilk. It's not really the sort of sum a club like Saints should be worrying about anyway. I think release clauses in Spain have to be paid up front and I think we paid Juanmi's release clause (just over £5m) but someone more informed could confirm. I am not worried about Saints' cashflow at all here, but if we had £5m and £30k in the kitty for a player then there are other parts of the team that needed that investment - either another player or a better player than the one we signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 14 December, 2015 Share Posted 14 December, 2015 I think release clauses in Spain have to be paid up front and I think we paid Juanmi's release clause (just over £5m) but someone more informed could confirm. I am not worried about Saints' cashflow at all here' date=' but if we had £5m and £30k in the kitty for a player then there are other parts of the team that needed that investment - either another player or a better player than the one we signed.[/quote'] Well we must have had our reasons for signing him just as the manager must have his reasons for not giving him much playing time. One can only presume that our premature exit from the Europa League was totally unforeseen and that these players who are hardly playing were signed on for that competiton in the main. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersonic Posted 14 December, 2015 Share Posted 14 December, 2015 We need a striker desperately, and if it means selling Long to bring in someone who scores more consistently then I'm all for it. When the first thing someone says is "he works hard" about a striker, it says it all really. I'd say we have 3 recognised strikers in our squad: Pelle, Long and Rodriguez (Mane is more of a winger IMO) and neither of them are prolific enough to warrant consistent PL starting places. Pelle is too inconsistent and a bit of a liability, Long isn't prolific enough and Rodriguez can't stay fit. If we're to achieve anything this season, we need to buy a goal scorer, and not go for the cheap option when doing so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 14 December, 2015 Share Posted 14 December, 2015 We need a striker desperately, and if it means selling Long to bring in someone who scores more consistently then I'm all for it. When the first thing someone says is "he works hard" about a striker, it says it all really. I'd say we have 3 recognised strikers in our squad: Pelle, Long and Rodriguez (Mane is more of a winger IMO) and neither of them are prolific enough to warrant consistent PL starting places. Pelle is too inconsistent and a bit of a liability, Long isn't prolific enough and Rodriguez can't stay fit. If we're to achieve anything this season, we need to buy a goal scorer, and not go for the cheap option when doing so! I don't think you'd get what you want for the amount that you'd get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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