austsaint Posted 2 January, 2016 Share Posted 2 January, 2016 Amid the understandable teeth gnashing directed at Vic and Sadio, it was good to see Harry Reed get a short run out, belated though it was. I've always thought Ron was off the mark (I think it was after Reed's solid performance against Everton) when he commented in interview on Reed's technical limitations, which sounded like a "I don't rate you". Practically ever since a young mid-fielder with technical skills has featured week after week, and never really made a impact. Whether JWP continues to be picked at right wing, attacking mid or holding mid is obviously RK's call, but in the wake of Vic's ban, I hope Ron has the foresight to put Romeu and Reed together in the DM role, even if it's Reed subbed on for Clasie - it's not the solution to all our ills but giving him some sort of extended run gives the hope of Academy representation (beyond Ward-Prowse) and a chance for a good young player to challenge Ron's assessment of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystic Force Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 As a game it was quite entertaining, even with good ebb and flow, neither side had that ruthless streak to grab the game, but we were edging it and more likely to score. Then Wanyama did something stupid and unnecessary, then they scored and that was the end of that. We are not qualifying for Europe and we shouldn't get relegated but it is going to be a lot closer than ae would like or expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExSt Peter Saint Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Very disappointing. We had more possession and shots on target, but apart from the Arsenal game, really haven't looked capable of taking chances or taking control of a game lately. I expected better of Mane. We'd be lucky to get a decent price for Wanyama now or at the end of the season! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoateallthepies Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Yes but from the hysteria on this forum you would never believe it We do have some posters who post correct reviews of the game thankfully Yes, because should we end up fighting relegation we'll all be thankful for accurate reviews of defeats. Contemplate 7 defeats out of 9 games. If you don't think that is worthy of concern then all credit to your monumental powers of optimism. Personally I prefer to recognise a problem when it is in front of me because then I find it so much easier to deal with it. My worry is that the board appear (no proof) to be ignoring the signs of decay and settling for mediocre at best. Let's hope they don't see 7 defeats out of 9 as acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Amid the understandable teeth gnashing directed at Vic and Sadio, it was good to see Harry Reed get a short run out, belated though it was. I've always thought Ron was off the mark (I think it was after Reed's solid performance against Everton) when he commented in interview on Reed's technical limitations, which sounded like a "I don't rate you". Practically ever since a young mid-fielder with technical skills has featured week after week, and never really made a impact. Whether JWP continues to be picked at right wing, attacking mid or holding mid is obviously RK's call, but in the wake of Vic's ban, I hope Ron has the foresight to put Romeu and Reed together in the DM role, even if it's Reed subbed on for Clasie - it's not the solution to all our ills but giving him some sort of extended run gives the hope of Academy representation (beyond Ward-Prowse) and a chance for a good young player to challenge Ron's assessment of him. I am not sure I have seen enough of Reed to argue against, but from what I see he runs around a lot but on the ball offers little. Is that fair? Everything I have read on here points to underperforming at under 21 level as the reason he hasn't been given a run in the side. When he has played for the first team hasn't he played at the front of the diamond? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Yes, because should we end up fighting relegation we'll all be thankful for accurate reviews of defeats. Contemplate 7 defeats out of 9 games. If you don't think that is worthy of concern then all credit to your monumental powers of optimism. Personally I prefer to recognise a problem when it is in front of me because then I find it so much easier to deal with it. My worry is that the board appear (no proof) to be ignoring the signs of decay and settling for mediocre at best. Let's hope they don't see 7 defeats out of 9 as acceptable. The solution is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuncanRG Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 My worry is that the board appear (no proof) to be ignoring the signs of decay and settling for mediocre at best. Let's hope they don't see 7 defeats out of 9 as acceptable. They don't, but their job is to take a far longer view than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 They don't, but their job is to take a far longer view than that. Well they should have done that already. If they don't buy a striker soon the long term future could be in championship., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austsaint Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 I am not sure I have seen enough of Reed to argue against, but from what I see he runs around a lot but on the ball offers little. Is that fair? Everything I have read on here points to underperforming at under 21 level as the reason he hasn't been given a run in the side. When he has played for the first team hasn't he played at the front of the diamond? I don't think you can read a lot into the U/21 performances - the point being (albeit relying on memory) he has done well in the past when called on to fill in for Morgan or Vic, whether that was at the front of the diamond or in the traditional DM space I'm not sure. I also remember him getting forward a bit with some success at incisive passing which flies in the face of RK's quote post-Everton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 (edited) I don't think you can read a lot into the U/21 performances - the point being (albeit relying on memory) he has done well in the past when called on to fill in for Morgan or Vic, whether that was at the front of the diamond or in the traditional DM space I'm not sure. I also remember him getting forward a bit with some success at incisive passing which flies in the face of RK's quote post-Everton. As I said, I've not seen enough of him, but when i have seen him he has run around a lot and put opponents under pressure, usually when we have been in front. Which is great and the fans appreciate that a lot. The sort of thing Cork was outstanding at. And there is no bigger Cork fan than me. But On the ball he hasn't done a great deal and compared with others in training etc perhaps doesn't shine. I don't know. I'm guessing. He's not as good as Davis and that's the position he has played for us. In front of the midfield chasing ball down. With Wanyama suspended I doubt he will be asked by RK to fill the void unless Romeu is injured. In my eyes JWP, who I have slated on here, is improving in terms of off the ball stuff, closing down etc, and Classie is also getting better in every game, although a long way off what I'd hoped he might be at this stage of the season, so I can see RK sticking with them rather than going with Read. Whether that is the right choice remains to be seen. cm is a concern and has been all season. Edited 3 January, 2016 by Chez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Kent Saint Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 (edited) Going by MotD Norwich could have had a hatful , Long was unlucky , Classie failed to stop their sub putting in the winning cross and Wanyama .... he showed against Arsenal how he can play but is he just not trying ? or unsettled still ? . It shows how well Morgan did in his last season with us ! Also Lambert looked really slow for WBA , don't think he could come back to Saints now , as others have suggested . He seemed happy when celebrating their goals though !! Edited 3 January, 2016 by East Kent Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 I am not sure I have seen enough of Reed to argue against, but from what I see he runs around a lot but on the ball offers little. Is that fair? Everything I have read on here points to underperforming at under 21 level as the reason he hasn't been given a run in the side. When he has played for the first team hasn't he played at the front of the diamond? I've watched some highlights from U21 games, and those matches where he's featured, and whilst he's good on the ball, his role is primarily about winning the ball first, but some of his tackling has the referee reaching to his pocket for a card - and t.b.f....I'm surprised gets away with so much and isn't booked more often. Those early comparisons with Paul Scholes ......didn't just refer to his hair-colour. .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Biscuits Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Where's the hunger gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 As I said, I've not seen enough of him, but when i have seen him he has run around a lot and put opponents under pressure, usually when we have been in front. Which is great and the fans appreciate that a lot. The sort of thing Cork was outstanding at. And there is no bigger Cork fan than me. But On the ball he hasn't done a great deal and compared with others in training etc perhaps doesn't shine. I don't know. I'm guessing. He's not as good as Davis and that's the position he has played for us. In front of the midfield chasing ball down. With Wanyama suspended I doubt he will be asked by RK to fill the void unless Romeu is injured. In my eyes JWP, who I have slated on here, is improving in terms of off the ball stuff, closing down etc, and Classie is also getting better in every game, although a long way off what I'd hoped he might be at this stage of the season, so I can see RK sticking with them rather than going with Read. Whether that is the right choice remains to be seen. cm is a concern and has been all season. I'm sorry but jwp isn't improving at all in fact he's getting worse. Was just abysmal yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Going by MotD Norwich could have had a hatful , Long was unlucky , Classie failed to stop their sub putting in the winning cross and Wanyama .... he showed against Arsenal how he can play but is he just not trying ? or unsettled still ? . It shows how well Morgan did in his last season with us ! Also Lambert looked really slow for WBA , don't think he could come back to Saints now , as others have suggested . He seemed happy when celebrating their goals though !! Long was unlucky? Really? It was woeful finishing. One touch and shoot it should have been! Clasie was our best player first half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hasper57saint Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Going by MotD Norwich could have had a hatful , Long was unlucky , Classie failed to stop their sub putting in the winning cross and Wanyama .... he showed against Arsenal how he can play but is he just not trying ? or unsettled still ? . It shows how well Morgan did in his last season with us ! Also Lambert looked really slow for WBA , don't think he could come back to Saints now , as others have suggested . He seemed happy when celebrating their goals though !! Hope you realise that MOTD is edited to suit the BBC not the fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Smith Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Fwiw, wanyama is showing himself as 'unprofessional'. As a manager, vying to win the prem, do well in the champions league and perform consistently, you pick a professional as a main stay. Morgan showed that professionalism and got a great move. Playing alongside carrick and schweinsteiger, can only improve his game, even if they are poor as a team presently. Wanyama, could be brought in as a backup and to keep the likes of Wiltshire on their toes or as an injury replacement. But, these top clubs do not pay millions for sulky, unpredictable cry babies. Too many games, too much pressure to cater for unprofessionals. Wanyama and mane are showing to the big clubs, that they are bit part players. Fools Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 I'm sorry but jwp isn't improving at all in fact he's getting worse. Was just abysmal yesterday. I was specific about his off the ball stuff (closing down) improving, all be it from a woeful starting point. I am not sure I agree with your assessment of his performance yesterday or his general improvement. I am not a fan of his, he is just so slow, but he has a good first touch, which is a good starting point. Whether there is enough to his game to see him shine at this level I am not sure, but I am reluctant to write him off. Do you ever have a good word to say about any of our players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Long was unlucky? Really? It was woeful finishing. One touch and shoot it should have been!. I agree with that. Nothing to do with bad luck, he is just not a clinical striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatboy40 Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Do you think that Sunderland or Newcastle will catch up ? If they can keep up yesterdays performances then damned right they can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 I was specific about his off the ball stuff (closing down) improving, all be it from a woeful starting point. I am not sure I agree with your assessment of his performance yesterday or his general improvement. I am not a fan of his, he is just so slow, but he has a good first touch, which is a good starting point. Whether there is enough to his game to see him shine at this level I am not sure, but I am reluctant to write him off. Do you ever have a good word to say about any of our players? Yes Forster is one of the best when fit, we have a fab captain, vvd isn't bad although not in Toby's class, Bertrand is a good left back. Clasie was very good first half and improving, mane could be quality if played behind striker and if he sorts his head out. Davis a genuine player, tadic can be very good as can Pelle and if j rod gets fit will be fab. I think board are lovely people too. Just not ambitious enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Kent Saint Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Yes Long was unlucky , on another day his header down would have gone in and the other chance against goalie/defender was nearly there ! Meanwhile Norwich could have scored 4 but that is football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Yes Long was unlucky , on another day his header down would have gone in and the other chance against goalie/defender was nearly there ! Meanwhile Norwich could have scored 4 but that is football. The header was unlucky yes but not the second chance. He should have shot on second chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Yes Long was unlucky , on another day his header down would have gone in and the other chance against goalie/defender was nearly there ! Meanwhile Norwich could have scored 4 but that is football. Strikers put clean through should score. If they don't, they have failed and should be chastised as much as a defender making a mistake that costs a goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Yes Forster is one of the best when fit, we have a fab captain, vvd isn't bad although not in Toby's class, Bertrand is a good left back. Clasie was very good first half and improving, mane could be quality if played behind striker and if he sorts his head out. Davis a genuine player, tadic can be very good as can Pelle and if j rod gets fit will be fab. I think board are lovely people too. Just not ambitious enough for me. Cheers. Glad it's not all doom and gloom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Cheers. Glad it's not all doom and gloom. After speaking to Ralph a while ago the rhetoric was about champs league, I just think club shouldn't say that with the parameters what they are. Then it's going to annoy fans when we fall miles short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goatboy Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 After speaking to Ralph a while ago the rhetoric was about champs league, I just think club shouldn't say that with the parameters what they are. Then it's going to annoy fans when we fall miles short. So Ralph states his lofty ambition and that's wrong. But you are concerned the club has no ambition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 After speaking to Ralph a while ago the rhetoric was about champs league, I just think club shouldn't say that with the parameters what they are. Then it's going to annoy fans when we fall miles short. Champions league talk at the start of a season for a club like us just looked ridiculous. Now if we were in Leicesters position right now then there would be no harm in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 So Ralph states his lofty ambition and that's wrong. But you are concerned the club has no ambition? Saying CL but allowing Morgan etc to leave doesn't quite tally up though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Saying CL but allowing Morgan etc to leave doesn't quite tally up though. At the de vere Koeman made it clear losing Clyne was the biggest disappointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Biscuits Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 The club must abandon the salary cap. It's killing us losing all this talent each season. If they really want us to play CL football, they simply must fight fire with fire and wage match with the top clubs. Budget for the fine and break the ffp rules - other clubs have broken the ffp rules and it's had no effect at all so why should Saints bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 The club must abandon the salary cap. It's killing us losing all this talent each season. If they really want us to play CL football, they simply must fight fire with fire and wage match with the top clubs. Budget for the fine and break the ffp rules - other clubs have broken the ffp rules and it's had no effect at all so why should Saints bother? Easily the most sensible idea I've seen on here, since, like, ever. Napalm for Chairman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Kint Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 The club must abandon the salary cap. It's killing us losing all this talent each season. If they really want us to play CL football, they simply must fight fire with fire and wage match with the top clubs. Budget for the fine and break the ffp rules - other clubs have broken the ffp rules and it's had no effect at all so why should Saints bother? Wow. How stupid can some people be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Biscuits Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Easily the most sensible idea I've seen on here, since, like, ever. Napalm for Chairman. You just broke my sarcasm detector. Ok so maybe a little over the top but the last three seasons have proved that the salary cap is not useful - it's got nothing to do with the football when a club can offer to double a players weekly wage without breaking a sweat. The fact that most of the players who have left us have then gone on to be bench warmers speaks volumes. If the club is serious about keeping the talent then the salary cap has to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Biscuits Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Wow. How stupid can some people be Go on then Einstein you tell me how the club is going to keep talented players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 The club must abandon the salary cap. It's killing us losing all this talent each season. If they really want us to play CL football, they simply must fight fire with fire and wage match with the top clubs. Budget for the fine and break the ffp rules - other clubs have broken the ffp rules and it's had no effect at all so why should Saints bother? Where does the money come from? Is there a stockpile in the bank I am not aware of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 I was actually reasonably content with things until Victor was a pillock, the heads seemingly dropped a bit after that and we conceded pretty much straight after. I like Shane, but he's not a clinical goal scorer. I'd say he's more of a support forward, he'll do all the running, annoy the defenders and then you'll have someone else to profit from his work who is a lot more clinical. I don't think Shane was ever bought solely for the goals anyway, it's the other aspects of his game which make him a good team player. I liked Jordy's performance yesterday, until he decided to be nutmegged..! I thought he controlled the midfield well, his use of the ball was excellent and he closed down very sharply. That's what we bought....and that's what we'll get over time, but we just need to be a little patient with him. Some of his passes and switches of play are brilliant. I don't think we've been horrific in the last 2 games at all. Should have been out of sight at WHU, should have at least got a point y/day. We're lacking in a bit of confidence, but these next 2 home league games are huge. We're not in a battle yet, but get on the wrong side of the results in these next 2 games and we may well be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Kint Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Go on then Einstein you tell me how the club is going to keep talented players. They won't. Get them signed up on long contracts when we buy them so that we can control when they're sold and sell for very big fees. Which the board have done. Then they need to make sure we have one of the best scouting and recruitment set ups in the country. The big clubs are lazy, they would rather spend 25 million on Lallana then find a player from elsewhere with just as much talent for a fraction of that price. And it's perfectly clear that it is possible to do, and is where we should have an advantage over clubs of our size. Not many clubs below the big 6/7 have a first team full of 8 million + players like we do, and the reality is we didn't recruit well enough last summer. That needs to change. This summer we will raise 60 million + if we sell Mane, Pelle and Wanyama and with Ramirez, Caulker and Stekelenburg off the wage bill we should be able to go and buy 5 or 6 quality players. If we don't then RK and the scouting department will have failed us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
washsaint Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Verbal - my concern is that Koeman is having too much say in who we buy. Right now I would not trust him with any money: his tactics are awful, he never changes things up in time and is adverse to giving the young (JWP aside) players a chance to shine. For me Reed did more in his time on the pitch yesterday than Wanyama has done all season (Arsenal game aside). Unless he gives the likes of Seager some time on the pitch he'll never know whether he is good enough for the Prem. Its not like we have any clinical finishers on the team right now.....yesterday it opened up nicely for Tadic to have a shot and he bottled it and tried a pass (that failed). Yet Koemans "players" such as Tadic will almost be guaranteed a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Kint Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Verbal - my concern is that Koeman is having too much say in who we buy. Right now I would not trust him with any money: his tactics are awful, he never changes things up in time and is adverse to giving the young (JWP aside) players a chance to shine. For me Reed did more in his time on the pitch yesterday than Wanyama has done all season (Arsenal game aside). Unless he gives the likes of Seager some time on the pitch he'll never know whether he is good enough for the Prem. Its not like we have any clinical finishers on the team right now.....yesterday it opened up nicely for Tadic to have a shot and he bottled it and tried a pass (that failed). Yet Koemans "players" such as Tadic will almost be guaranteed a start. I completely agree. he has too much influence on transfers and has been shown this season to be a very average manager tactically. There is little about him as a manager that fits the type we want and need. Doesn't give youngsters a chance, demands too much say in transfers and doesn't play attacking football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Saying CL but allowing Morgan etc to leave doesn't quite tally up though. I really don't know what people expected the club to do about Morgan? We could have forced him to stay one more season and he would have walked for nothing and we be in the same place we are now one season later. Players don't want to stay at saints if they think they can do better. The club has put it's foot down with player sales, like they have the last two summers, but as Victor has shown this season that doesn't always work out well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 The club must abandon the salary cap. It's killing us losing all this talent each season. If they really want us to play CL football, they simply must fight fire with fire and wage match with the top clubs. Budget for the fine and break the ffp rules - other clubs have broken the ffp rules and it's had no effect at all so why should Saints bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 I was actually reasonably content with things until Victor was a pillock, the heads seemingly dropped a bit after that and we conceded pretty much straight after. I like Shane, but he's not a clinical goal scorer. I'd say he's more of a support forward, he'll do all the running, annoy the defenders and then you'll have someone else to profit from his work who is a lot more clinical. I don't think Shane was ever bought solely for the goals anyway, it's the other aspects of his game which make him a good team player. I liked Jordy's performance yesterday, until he decided to be nutmegged..! I thought he controlled the midfield well, his use of the ball was excellent and he closed down very sharply. That's what we bought....and that's what we'll get over time, but we just need to be a little patient with him. Some of his passes and switches of play are brilliant. I don't think we've been horrific in the last 2 games at all. Should have been out of sight at WHU, should have at least got a point y/day. We're lacking in a bit of confidence, but these next 2 home league games are huge. We're not in a battle yet, but get on the wrong side of the results in these next 2 games and we may well be. Agreed. We should have won both of the last two games comfortably. We are still playing well and creating chances for large periods of matches. Yesterday was a horror-show for Wanyama and Koeman (and Mane to be honest - how thick can he be?), but we are not in the relegation dogfight that Dalek wishes we were in. That said, things will get harder and harder if we don't start finding the goals soon. I expect Clasie to really kick on next year, though why he still can't play 90 minutes is beyond me. It's hard not to appreciate Shane Long for all his work, but it would be a helluva lot easier to love him if he could finish. And for me, Koeman seems to be having a confidence crisis as much as any of the players. When he first arrived, the football we played was so much more enjoyable that what we saw under Pochettino (far, far, far too much passing for the sake of it without creating anything); we were attacking, direct, and always looked a threat. For some reason, he seems to have gone into his shell a bit and become far more defensively minded. Fans of any sport will always be far more understanding and accepting of their team losing if they tried to attack and entertain and it didn't come off. When you are losing as well as not trying to play on the front foot or entertain, that's when the patience of the fans will quickly dry up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 (edited) Agreed. We should have won both of the last two games comfortably. We are still playing well and creating chances for large periods of matches. Yesterday was a horror-show for Wanyama and Koeman (and Mane to be honest - how thick can he be?), but we are not in the relegation dogfight that Dalek wishes we were in. That said, things will get harder and harder if we don't start finding the goals soon. I expect Clasie to really kick on next year, though why he still can't play 90 minutes is beyond me. It's hard not to appreciate Shane Long for all his work, but it would be a helluva lot easier to love him if he could finish. And for me, Koeman seems to be having a confidence crisis as much as any of the players. When he first arrived, the football we played was so much more enjoyable that what we saw under Pochettino (far, far, far too much passing for the sake of it without creating anything); we were attacking, direct, and always looked a threat. For some reason, he seems to have gone into his shell a bit and become far more defensively minded. Fans of any sport will always be far more understanding and accepting of their team losing if they tried to attack and entertain and it didn't come off. When you are losing as well as not trying to play on the front foot or entertain, that's when the patience of the fans will quickly dry up. Disagree. I think if you look closely enough many of our weaknesses up top have been long in the making -and Koeman has always been pragmatic rather than offensive-minded, something that has made it easier for the side to "go into a shell" now results have dipped. Note that both MP and Koeman's sides in 2013/14 and 2014/15 respectively scored the same number of goals, though MP's season wasnt inflated by two freak results and his side was forced to rely on Sam Gallagher for a significant period. I know which team I preferred watching with its fluidity and control, though it doesn't take away from Koeman's stellar achievements in light of the context in which he joined the club. Edited 3 January, 2016 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 (edited) We have played 4-2-3-1 almost exclusively this season but it isn't really working, in my view for a number of reasons. Firstly Schneiderlin was disciplined and sat which gave Wanyama a reference point to play off him in front of Fonte and the very disciplined Alderweireld which gave us a very solid base. This made the 4-2-3-1 work. This year Wanyama has no reference and is all over the place, additionally he has no regular partner although Clasie may now be. At centre back we have the casual VVD who could be a superb centre back but for two things, he ball watches and his awareness honed in the best team in Scotland is not up to the mark for EPL but could be. His casualness and thinking he can just stroll forward when he likes, often with full backs out of position can expose us. When caught out he doesn't bust a gut to get back. Against Arsenal Koeman was presented with a problem, how to stop Arsenal exposing our full backs so he went to 4-4-2 knowing full well that Arsenal would dominate possession and we would have to play on the break with two quick strikers, that worked so well he couldn't wait to drop it for the next two defeats. We struggle to score because we persist in playing only two forwards who can score given enough chances. Apart from Pelle (injured ), Mane and Long are the only forwards. Because we play Tadic, Davis, and Ward-Prowse as forwards we have slow possession but no penetration. These players have qualities but not the ones we need. We need badly a finisher and two working forwards that will score some goals but more importantly break fast and cause opposing defences to be outnumbered rather than our forwards under pressure. The 4-4-2 worked because we were closing down the opposition and quickly getting in behind the defenders at the same time allowing the slow midfielders to be effective something they are not in 4-2-3-1. With our wingers, sorry full backs in the current system out of position we are letting in goals that start from wide positions. 4-4-2 the full backs are more defensive and against the better Arsenal we didn't get caught out but against Palace, WHU and Norwich we were opened up from wide. Edited 3 January, 2016 by derry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verbal Kint Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Disagree. I think if you look closely enough many of our weaknesses up top have been long in the making -and Koeman has always been pragmatic rather than offensive-minded, something that has made it easier for the side to "go into a shell" now results have dipped. Note that both MP and Koeman's sides in 2013/14 and 2014/15 respectively scored the same number of goals, though MP's season wasnt inflated by two freak results and his side was forced to rely on Sam Gallagher for a significant period. I know which team I preferred watching with its fluidity and control, though it doesn't take away from Koeman's stellar achievements in light of the context in which he joined the club. All opinion really but i found the football under MP some of the dullest I've ever seen. We controlled games and were very solid but the attacking play was tedious at times. I remember a 0-0 at villa where we had 65% possession and 3 attempts at goal all game. Propaganda football at it's best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmacian_saint Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 I still think we have an OK squad, but the truth is that we have not improved, and our previous water-carriers and team-making "gel" are being asked to be the stars, something they are not. Our signings under RK, most of which are already playing at the top of their game, aren't really top 10 level. Most of them have had a total of about 6 months worth of impact and have shown no signs of being able to improve on past performances. To top that off, we are struggling to keep discipline and players now see us as a steeping stone to better things more than a club to progress. It's not that we weren't always going to be the former, but the latter was also true of Lovrens, Clynes and Schneiderlins. Somehow I don't think Mane sees us like that, and Wanyama is no longer the same. Not only he is clearly desperate for a move away, the absence of Schneiderlin's defensive collaboration has made him much less disciplined and he is making many more rash decisions. The sending off yesterday is a sign of both tiredness, loss of tactical awareness and recklessness, and it was crucial to the outcome. Before that, and after we had missed a couple of sitters and they had missed their chances, the game was sleepwalking to a 0-0 draw and the sending of our DM encouraged Norwich on again. I don't think we are in a relegation battle, but our form suggests we will always be one bad result away from being dragged into a position where we start worrying about those behind us, and that is a dangerous position, especially if away games like this one don't go our way. I'm particularly worried about trips to Swansea and Bournemouth. Those are the kind of games that will move us away from trouble or push us into it, where intensity dominates over quality or tactics, and we don't seem to be very good at them. I don't think we are in a relegation battle- our form suggests we can have a season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Toby is a huge loss too. The guy is the best defender in league by miles. Just playing amazing today! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 (edited) All opinion really but i found the football under MP some of the dullest I've ever seen. We controlled games and were very solid but the attacking play was tedious at times. I remember a 0-0 at villa where we had 65% possession and 3 attempts at goal all game. Propaganda football at it's best Yes I remember that game well. End of season affair with a depleted attack and zero pace (no Jrod), though it didn't stop Davis and Lallana missing absolute sitters (better chances than anything we created yesterday or against Wham). FWIW, in those two seasons we failed to score under Koeman in nearly twice as many games as under MP. That's fact, not propaganda. Edited 3 January, 2016 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 3 January, 2016 Share Posted 3 January, 2016 Toby is a huge loss too. The guy is the best defender in league by miles. Just playing amazing today! Who we weren't even prepared to pay a lot less for than VVD, even though it wasn't the £8m agreed in the loan. We obviously didn't get how important he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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